Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - StardustyPsyche

Pages: [1] 2 3 4
1
Brother Osama,
“but the Noble Verses speak about the sun and the moon and other planets in relation to the earth are not in contradiction with science.”

Even if I were to grant that, which I do not, still, that does not constitute a “miracle” much less a “stunning scientific miracle” as you propose repeatedly.

Compatibility does not equal “miracle”.  The Qur’an says there is a moon.  Modern science says there is a moon.  Ok, but what does that prove?  That is an easily observable fact.  Easily observable facts are compatible with modern science.  They are not miracles.

“You can technically and scientifically speak a system with the earth being the focus or the center”
Only if one has a very egocentric worldview, or we are speaking of apparent motion.  No comprehensive modern scientific model puts the Earth at the center of a celestial system.


“All rotate around each others even when the sun appears to be the center and the focus:”
Objects in a system under study rotate around a common center of mass.  Ok, I do not see how this in any way supports any supposed “scientific miracles” in the Qur’an.

You go on to assert these things are claimed in the Qur’an but I did not see the text quoted you assert these claims come from, so I suspect your claims are not valid in the first place, but let’s just suppose for a moment the Qur’an does assert these things.  Are they miraculous?

To be a scientific miracle they must be necessarily of divine origin.  To be a miracle they must require a divine origin.  If any human origin is possible they are disqualified from the classification as “miracle”

“Also, the Glorious Quran [1] declares that the earth is:”

“1- Spherical.”
Not a miracle because there were many known evidences of the spherical shape of the Earth.  The Greeks even calculated the diameter of the Earth.

2- Suspended in Space.
Not a miracle because celestial models of the day placed the earth in space, surrounded by planets and stars also in space

3- Rotating around itself. (emphasis on dahaha and its derivatives)
Not a miracle because it had been proposed previously by ordinary humans.

4- Is traveling in Space.
Really?  Where?  Please cite for me the Quranic passage that explicitly states the Earth is orbiting the Sun, and our solar system is orbiting our galactic center of mass.
Not a miracle because no such specific descriptions exist.

5- Also, all celestial bodies are Yaa'rujoon (traveling in orbits) in space
Please, brother Osama, everybody thought that.  That is what the Ptolemaic system was, the celestial bodies in their orbits.  A few even thought the sun was at the center and other bodies were in orbits.  These were ideas well known in that day.
Need I say, not a miracle?

You underlined
“it sets in one place and rises in another”
That is your “miracle”?  The sun sets in one place and rises in another place?  I must admit to being flabbergasted.  Is there anything more obvious in life than the fact that the sun sets in one place and rises in another?

Yes, that is compatible with modern science…that is indeed true.  And it is indeed stunning, but I am very sorry to say not stunning in the sense you generally speak of.

I really do warmly invite you to take another look at brother Hamza’s  journey on this subject.  I realize you do not consider him to be a linguistic authority, and certainly, speaking Arabic as a first language is a significant advantage in Quranic study.

But, when a man cites “it sets in one place and rises in another” in support of a divinity hypothesis I believe linguistic nuances of translation become less important than the ability to analyze scientific questions while avoiding logical fallacies.  In that regard I suggest you could gain some valuable insights from brother Hamza if you are not prepared to accept them from an atheist such as I.

http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/does-the-quran-contain-scientific-miracles-a-new-approach/


2
Brother Ahmad,
Yes, I see I was not as clear as I should have been.  Thank you for pointing out how a reader could easily conclude I was jumping around in my points.  Fair enough.

I was speaking from several perspectives, and in my mind at the time it was all very clear, but as I mentioned previously, I do not have perfect powers of articulation :-)

Please allow me to put it this way:
The text of the Qur'an on celestial observations is easily accounted for by the prevailing notion of the day, geocentrism as described in the Ptolemaic model. 

That is my core refutation that any of the celestial descriptions in the Qur'an are miraculous.  They are easily accounted for as the mere descriptions of the prevailing theories of the day.  Any ordinary man writing with no divine guidance whatever would and did write essentially those same words again and again.  That alone disqualifies any celestial descriptions in the Qur'an as scientific miracles.

To qualify as a scientific miracle there must be something about the text that necessarily requires a supernatural origin.  All assertions of scientific miracles in the Qur'an fail that test.

Scientific analysis still contains the observation of apparent motion.  Apparent motion is the motion we observe from our point of view.  That is the sense I was referring to with my discussions about overtaking.  From our point of view the sun, moon, and planets do overtake each other.  So, the description in the Qur'an, from the point of view of apparent motion, is correct in many details, but fails to account for the motions at new moon, possibly because those motions are not easily observed and must be deduced by careful record keeping and calculations over time.

To the extent the Qur'anic descriptions are a description of the Ptolemaic system they are simply mistaken, since we now know the heliocentric view is correct.

In a rather feeble attempt to salvage this dismal situation in the Qur'an some have tried a bit of after the fact cherry picking by saying the "orbit" was not the Ptolemaic orbit of the sun but rather the orbit of the sun in the galaxy.  I must say that is a rather desperate bit of rationalization, given that no Islamic scholars predicted such an orbit based upon the text prior to the scientific discovery of the galaxy.

If the the Qur'an had made the statement "the cloudy band across the sky is comprised of a hundred thousand thousand thousand stars which are actually various sizes of suns, and they are all orbiting a common center of material, with our sun orbiting once every two hundred fifty thousand thousand years" then the assertion of the word "orbit" to galactic orbit would be credible, but it is not.

As for the spheres, again, there is no necessity of divine origin and therefore their mention is no evidence of a scientific miracle.  Yes, spherical coordinates are a part of modern math and science, but the ancients long imagined celestial spheres of various sorts.  The Qur'an mentions "sphere" in relation to its celestial descriptions, so again, this cannot be considered a miracle because it was so commonly used in that era.

"More like the ones who got famous for deducing the truth, kind of like Christopher Columbus’ “discovery”."
Indeed, brother Ahmad, scientists do not create truth, they deduce a preexisting truth.  To remain mired in the falsehoods of ancient texts is to be inhibited from deducing truth.

The truth about our existence is to be found, not in the ancient mythologies recorded in holy books, rather, in careful observation and deduction of the universe itself.  When a man succeeds a step in that direction, he does indeed earn our respect and gains deserved fame.





3
Mr. Habbal,
Asked and answered.  But, you seem unwilling or unable to engage in consideration of your fallacy of hasty generalization.  See « Reply #99 on: January 18, 2016, 06:14:35 AM » for a more complete explanation of your error.

As for your repeated questions about 9/11, again, asked and answered:
The topic of this thread is "There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an" and that is the topic I intend to discuss here.



4
Brother Ahmad,
We are getting into a rather fine detail of parsing an English word I am not certain is absolutely the correct or best translation, but "overtake" does seem to be a fair word to use in this case.

When driving on a multi-lane road in the same direction one car overtakes another when it passes the other.  If they were in the same lane there would be, instead, a rear end collision.

To overtake on a curve is similar, one car passes the other, but in different lanes.  On a circular track the runners run in different lanes, and to overtake means to pass but along a different path.  Passing means to achieve a greater distance run which can also be expressed as a greater angular measure traversed.

In the 7th century nearly all people accepted the Ptolemaic system.


Note, the moon, mercury, venus, sun, mars, jupiter, and saturn were treated the same in terms of motion and were all considered planets of the earth. 

Also, note the position of the stars in a spherical shell outside the planets, hence the reference to spheres in the Qur'an.

It is interesting to note that this system got the order of the planets correct, is correct in that the moon is closest to the earth, and interchanges the position of the earth and the sun such that mercury and venus are inside whereas mars, jupiter, and saturn are outside which is also correct.

This model was no accident, rather, it fits quiet well with careful naked eye observations.  Not shown in this image are the epicycles needed to account for retrograde motion.

So, brother Ahmad, we can see that the verses in the Qur'an are simply poetic and very simple words that describe the prevailing view of that day.

But, those words are in error to the extent that the planets do overtake each other as they move in their circular tracks, just like racers who stay in their own lanes but overtake by running faster.

The heliocentric model was known to learned people as a hypothesis dating back to ancient Greece, and at least one Muslim scholar did in fact promote that hypothesis.  But, it seemed rather fantastic to people that the Earth, which is obviously standing still, would actually be moving, and the sun, which is obviously moving, would actually be standing still.  That idea seemed so outlandish to nearly all humans that Aristotle and Ptolemy ruled the day for millennia.

It was Christian Europe that deduced the truth we all know today, and corrected the scientific errors of the Qur'an and nearly everybody else, thanks to Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, and Newton.

5
Brother Ahmad,
"today’s science tells us that the moon doesn’t actually overtake the sun"

Ok, depends how one defines "overtake".  In angular measure, yes, the sun and the moon do overtake each other.  If, on a circular track, one racer overtakes another that does not mean he collides with the other, rather, that his his angular measure passes that of the other.

According to the Oxford dictionary (I know you cite Webster but I prefer Oxford)
overtake
1. Catch up with and pass while traveling in the same direction

The sun and the moon travel in nearly the same arc across the sky, yet one passes the other at new moon.  So I think it is an error to fail to account for this observational fact.

"I have become pretty certain that you are trying hard to find any mistakes in the Qur’an"
Actually, the mistakes find me!  I mean, every time I look up the supposed "stunning scientific miracle" asserted by brother Osama all I find is either a vague description of the obvious or outright error.

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an.

I don't have to look for mistakes, brother Osama points me to them again and again.








6
Brother Ahmad,
“Just as a last point, I want to ask what do you think about the Qur’an verses 21:33 and 36:40.”

Here is 21:33 from corpus.quran:
Sahih International: And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming.
Pickthall: And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.
Yusuf Ali: It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course.
Shakir: And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.
Muhammad Sarwar: It is God who has created the night, the day, the Sun, and Moon and has made them swim in a certain orbit.
Mohsin Khan: And He it is Who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit floating.
Arberry: It is He who created the night and the day, the sun and the moon, each swimming in a sky.

The author is simply describing the prevailing cosmology of the day.  For all of human history people had observed that objects arc across the sky.  The sun, moon, and 5 wanderers that shine with a steady light are found only within a narrow band of sky centered on what we now call the ecliptic.  These objects have always held a special fascination for man.

It has long been commonplace to attribute the creation and even the motions of these objects to gods or a god.  The Romans gave them the names we use today, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Venus, and Mercury.  The moon is of course very obvious and the sun is naturally revered as the giver of warmth and light.

Nearly everyone for all history thought the sun, the moon, the other planets, and the stars all orbit the Earth.  Many people constructed cosmologies involving layers of spheres.  This was not stupid; rather, it is actually very difficult even with a basic telescope to prove the sun does not orbit the Earth!

This is not a scientific miracle, merely the same observations and conclusions nearly all human being had made up to that day.


Here is 36:40 from corpus.quran
Sahih International: It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming.
Pickthall: It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.
Yusuf Ali: It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).
Shakir: Neither is it allowable to the sun that it should overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day; and all float on in a sphere.
Muhammad Sarwar: how the sun is not supposed to catch-up with the moon, nor is the night to precede the day. All of them are to float in a certain orbit;
Mohsin Khan: It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit.
Arberry: It behoves not the sun to overtake the moon, neither does the night outstrip the day, each swimming in a sky.

I would repeat my above statements with regard to these similar passages, but I would note a scientific error in the case of 36:40.

The sun does reach the moon, in the sense that their positions do cross at new moon, which is from our point of view no moon.  In fact, when the sun and the moon align at new moon we get a solar eclipse, at which time the night does, in some sense, outstrip the day.

But, those inaccuracies aside, these passages are simply the descriptions of the day, the night, the sun, and them moon commonly made by cultures worldwide for all time.

The only stunning thing about these passages is that some people consider them somehow miraculous.

7
Mr. Habbal,
The hadith calls for a pathogen on 1 wing and antidote on the other wing.

Nothing in your citation demonstrates the alternate wing assertion of the hadith.

Science does not work by 1 study.  A scientific confirmation requires repeatability. Can this experiment be repeated reliably by scientists everywhere?  And even if it can, the mere observation that a particular pathogen does not grow in large quantities visible as a colony in water over time does not mean the water is safe to drink immediately.

Perhaps worst of all you have committed a hasty generalization, a logical fallacy, which applied broadly could lead to a big health problem as brother Osama wisely pointed out:
“if we do this with multiple or many infested flies, then we will have a big health problem.”
http://www.answering-christianity.com/hadiths_of_the_fly.htm

This is your hasty generalization:
Flies carry pathogens A, B, C, D, E….
Water did not grow visibly over time pathogen C in 1 study.
Therefore humans are safe to drink pathogen C immediately if the fly is dipped.
Therefore humans are also safe from pathogens A, B, D, E…

What you are proposing violates the scientific method, makes a false generalization between a water culture over time and the effects of immediate ingestion by a human being, and falsely concludes that all dangerous microorganisms carried by flies will be neutralized by antidotes carried by the fly itself.

I invite you to study the scientific method and logical fallacies. What you have proposed is unscientific, logically fallacious, and a public health hazard.


8
Brother Ahmad,
"Did you seriously use that argument? You do know that phrases used in English are not necessarily used in the same way in other languages, right? I can’t say much about Arabic but I definitely know at-least one language where the literal translation of these phrases will sound pretty stupid."

Indeed. translation adds another difficulty, which is why I go to corpus.quran to read 7 different translations to try to get a consensus of meaning.

In many instances the literal words of the consensus of translations are factually incorrect.  However, your point is well taken and I am aware that even 7 translations could misrepresent the intent of the original author, which is why I also allow for the possibility of a mere general description of an observable situation.

So, that might seem like convenient vacillation on my part, but it is intended to be a disproof of miracle by 2 contingent methods.
1.   If the literal meaning of the consensus translations is to be used then the statement is scientifically false and thus not a scientific miracle.
2.   If the passage is taken in the generalized sense of an attempt at description that a 7th century man could understand then it is a mere description of observations, which is not a scientific miracle.

So, either way, there are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an.

If the passage had said “the sun travels a thousand, thousand, thousand times faster than a man can run and it is heading toward a place in the heavens we cannot see, while it orbits the common center of material of a hundred thousand thousand thousand suns once every two hundred fifty thousand thousand years with that collection of stars visible to you as the cloudy band in the clear night sky, taking the Earth and the other planets with it as they orbit the sun in elliptical orbits” then we could have a candidate for knowledge beyond that of 7th century man.

To address a previous comment, there are 92 naturally occurring elements, and if the creator of the universe had wished to do so I am sure he could have instructed his angel to tell Muhammad how to say that clearly, but he did no such thing.  I said “there are 92 fundamental atoms to be discovered on this Earth, and 5 of them are essential to the construction of a structure within our bodies too small for us to see”. Unlike Allah, I do not have perfect powers of articulation, so you have a valid point and it would have been better if Allah had said  “there are 92 fundamental atoms naturally occurring on this Earth, and 5 of them are essential to the construction of a structure within our bodies too small for us to see, but man will construct elements 93, 94 and beyond by smashing the naturally occurring atoms together in powerful machines he will construct”

Note, Allah makes no such specific predictions.

Allah could have done a very great deal better in making specific predictions about a myriad scientific facts undiscovered at that time.  Allah could have given Muhammad all sorts of information about the heliocentric solar system, the age of the universe, the occurrence of the elements, the cell structure of life, vaccines, and many other details woefully absent from the Qur’an.

All asserted “scientific miracles” are either literal errors or very generalized 7th century descriptions, either one of which disqualify them as true scientific miracles.


9
Brother Ahmad,
““And the sun runs…” (Qur’an 36:38)

I believe that the part that is being claimed to be extraordinary is the speed of the sun. Simple observation puts the sun moving extremely slowly. It would’ve been much more understandable and relatable to the audience of Prophet Muhammad if the verse said something like: as the sun unhurriedly moves in the heavens the end of all time comes near you with the same sluggishness, steadily but surely, so repent!”

That section of the Qur’an discusses light versus darkness, the motion of the sun, and the phases of the moon, all in rather vague and poetic language with no special insights other then looking into the sky and poetically expressing a few general impressions of light, dark, the sun, and the moon.

Men have been writing poetically about the dark and the light, the sun and the moon for a very long time.  How is that in any way a miracle?

To you, Ahmad, run is associated with fast, the sun seems to go slow, so the verse must be a miraculous prediction of the sun going fast when it appears to go slow.  Please brother, you really must excuse me for not taking that kind of explanation seriously.

“Run” has a multitude of meanings.  A cold may run its course, a road runs North and South, water runs, my nose runs when I have a cold, a particular brand of shoe has sizes that run small.  We may run into difficulty, run for office, or run away from a problem. "Run" does not equal "fast motion"

The sun rises, moves across the sky, and sets.  Poetically described by 7th century religious man, we get the below:
Sahih International: And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.

Pickthall: And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.

Yusuf Ali: And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.

Shakir: And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.

Muhammad Sarwar: how the sun moves in its orbit and this is the decree of the Majestic and All-knowing God;

Mohsin Khan: And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.

Arberry: And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=36&verse=38

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an, only simple observations by 7th century man and a variety of textual statements that are literally false.

10
Brother Ahmad,
"But we are not talking about ‘any’ 7th century man, are we? We are talking about the untaught Prophet Muhammad with his specific life surrounded by specific ignorance and various other factors. As I said before even in the worst-case scenario that the Prophet had access to all the books in the world, the Qur’an phenomenon will still remain unexplained."

Muhammad was anything but an ignorant man.  At the age of just 25 he became a wealthy traveler and trader through his marriage to an older wealthy widow.  He went on to lead a small group of followers and by his later years he had become the ruler of all Arabia.

Wealthy man, traveling man, theocratic ruler of all Arabia.

Sorry, but the old refrain of Muhammad the ignorant illiterate just doesn't work.  He undoubtedly had access to all the most learned men in Arabia, and undoubtedly conversed with knowledgeable men and ranking men from far away places.

Here is an example of the kind of apparent barrier visible on the surface
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgkiYvB3uJY

Here is another example, the title clearly contradicted by the video itself!  But there is the superficial appearance of a barrier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBT9C0wdieI

So, it was well within the capability of 7th century man to have observed these conditions on the surface and for a wealthy traveling trader and ruler of all Arabia to have heard of these observations.

You many listen to the Arabic recitation and read the Arabic script here
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=25&verse=53
“prohibiting partition, forbidding ban, forbidden to be passed, inviolable obstruction, complete partition”

According to those translators the words of the Qur’an are scientifically false, quite the opposite of a “scientific miracle”



Sahih International: And it is He who has released [simultaneously] the two seas, one fresh and sweet and one salty and bitter, and He placed between them a barrier and prohibiting partition.

Pickthall: And He it is Who hath given independence to the two seas (though they meet); one palatable, sweet, and the other saltish, bitter; and hath set a bar and a forbidding ban between them.

Yusuf Ali: It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.

Shakir: And He it is Who has made two seas to flow freely, the one sweet that subdues thirst by its sweetness, and the other salt that burns by its saltness; and between the two He has made a barrier and inviolable obstruction.

Muhammad Sarwar: It is He who has joined the two seas; one palatable and sweet, the other bitterly salty and has established a barrier between them as a partition.

Mohsin Khan: And it is He Who has let free the two seas (kinds of water), one palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter, and He has set a barrier and a complete partition between them.

Arberry: And it is He who let forth the two seas, this one Sweet, grateful to taste, and this salt, bitter to the tongue, and He set between them a barrier, and a ban forbidden.


11
Mr. Habbal,
Here is the text
"The Prophet said "If a house fly falls in the drink of anyone of you, he should dip it (in the drink), for one of its wings has a disease and the other has the cure for the disease."
Sahih Bukhari 4:54:537"

There is no evidence that one wing has a disease and the other wing has the cure for that disease.

It might be that we derive certain treatments from insects, such as the fly.  There is no evidence that one is well advised to "dip it in the drink" because the fly can carry a wide variety of pathogens, and antidotes to those pathogens have not been found on one wing of the fly or anyplace else on they fly.

You are engaging in fallacious thinking.  If you do not understand how your reasoning is fallacious then I invite you to study logical fallacies and how to make an argument that avoids them.

Brother Osama questions the validity of this Hadith here:
The Hadith of the fly is not a Mutawatir one
http://www.answering-christianity.com/hadiths_of_the_fly.htm


The topic of this thread is "There are no scientific miracles in the Qur'an"  and that is the topic I intend to address here.




12
Brother Ahmad,
Thank you very much indeed for your many very thoughtful words on so many subjects!

I will do my best to address every point, but I will be jumping around somewhat in several posts, so please do not think I am being hypocritical in cherry picking your words.  Feel free to join in conversationally at any time or to draw my attention to particular points you feel I might not have properly addressed.  I hope to address every point you have made in due course but it will take some time for me to do so.

What is a scientific miracle?  I suggest we ought to agree on terms before we spend too much time speaking at cross-purposes.

“From a rational point of view, if a plausible naturalistic explanation is available then that explanation will be adopted over a supernatural one. The very fact that a plausible naturalistic explanation is possible implies that there is no miracle because by definition a miracle is an event that cannot be explained naturalistically”
http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-articles/exploring-the-quran/does-the-quran-contain-scientific-miracles-a-new-approach/

My targets of refutation are the strong claims to supernatural necessity made by brother Osama on this site:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm

Brother Osama repeatedly claims that certain features of the Qur’an necessarily could not have been produced by 7th century men by their own intellect and powers, rather, Osama asserts, such items are proven to require supernatural intervention to explain their presence in the Qur’an.

It is the strong claims to supernatural necessity I am refuting.

Brother Ahmad, you make a very different claim, one of compatibility.  For you, it seems to me by your words, it is enough that the Qur’an is not in strict contradiction to modern science.

Since the Qur’an provides only simple descriptions of the natural world in terms available to 7th century man then those descriptions will be compatible with science if we allow for a very broad use of descriptive language and do not expect literal accuracy.

Here is what Webster defines as a Miracle:
Simple Definition of miracle
    : an unusual or wonderful event that is believed to be caused by the power of God
    : a very amazing or unusual event, thing, or achievement
Full Definition of miracle
    1    :  an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
    2    :  an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment
    3    Christian Science :  a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law

Out of this you chose:
“An extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment”
You chose as your primary definition what Webster lists as the second definition.  That is fine if that is what you choose for yourself, but it is not what I am refuting.  I am refuting the first definition:
“an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs”

In case after case brother Osama asserts that the words or the structure of the Qur’an could not possibly be accounted for by anything other than divine intervention.  My refutations are that these features were possible for 7th century man to implement without divine intervention.

And brother Osama is not alone.  There are millions of Muslims who agree with him.  Assertions of divine necessity in the so-called “scientific miracles of the Qur’an” abound in books and speeches and articles and web pages by the thousands.  I refute them all.

So, when the Qur’an, for example, describes the motion of the sun across the sky, and we allow for a broad use of descriptive or poetic language, then that description is very broadly compatible with modern science.  What is the miracle in that?  What could be more obvious than the facts of the apparent motion of the sun across the sky?

You offered an interpretation of the Arabic in the verse about the mixing of the waters to mean that they meet and then mix.  Well, fine.  That is obvious.  When a river flows to sea the waters meet and mix.  Yes, that is compatible with modern science.  That is a simple observation available to 7th century man.  How is that to be considered a miracle in any sense?

But your claim is not the claim most often heard by those who say the halocline or the visible demarcations between meeting waters is proof of something occurring that was unavailable to 7th century observation, yet is in the Qur’an and is therefore by necessity an act of divine intervention.  Such assertions are false.  The waters do mix.  There is no impenetrable barrier across which the waters do not transgress.  Further, certain apparent barriers were visible on the surface and were available to 7th century man.  The Qur’an is thus factually incorrect in its literal meaning, and merely descriptive in its broader meaning.  Either way, not a miracle of divine intervention.

More to come my brothers and sisters, please feel free to join in conversationally…
Peace to you all

13
We created man from an extract of clay.  Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed.  Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance).. (Quran, 23:12-14)

“We created man from an extract of clay. “
No, man did not come from clay.  Science tells us man evolved from lower primates.

“We made him as a drop”
A drop of what, semen?  How obvious.  It was well known that semen is necessary to reproduction in humans.

“in a place of settlement”
Semen can’t go too far once it is inside a vagina, now can it?  Actually it doesn’t settle, it mixes with the woman’s own fluids.

“We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot),”
Obviously a crude description of the products of miscarriage.  When a woman has an miscarriage it looks vaguly like a leech or a blood clot.  Of course it is neither, so the verse is mistaken, but it is crudely description of the products of miscarriage.  The cord makes a baby a "suspended thing", how obvious.

“We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed substance)”
Again the words are factually incorrect, we do not come from a chewed substance.  But this is just another crude description of the products of miscarriage.

The Qur’an offers only obvious observations, crude descriptions available to 7th century man, or outright errors.

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an


14
“quran says that sun moves in space”
Where?  What is the chapter and verse?

“raised up the heavens without any support – you can see that”
Yes, just go outside at night, there is nothing apparently holding up the “heavens”.  How obvious.  How is that supposed to be some kind of scientific miracle?

“He directs the whole affair.”
There is nothing scientific about that, it is a mere assertion of divine powers, just like thousands of other assertions made by all the other imagined gods.

"... My Lord encompasses all things in His knowledge so will you not pay heed?”
Again, there is nothing scientific about that, it is a mere assertion of divine powers.

“no, yewm can mean day 24h, and it can also mean a period wich is longer, much longer than our day.
to God is 1 day as our 1000 years
on judgment day, that day will be 50 000 years long. and by the way, do you knkow any thing about theory of relativity, where time is relevative, it is not fixed.
universe and earth was created in 6 periods not our (24h) days”
Right, 1 Allah day is 1000 Earth years.
6 Allah days is 6000 Earth years.
That makes the Qur’an scientifically false when it says creation was accomplished in 6 days, or 6000 years, or even if you call it 300,000 years.
1 day, 6000 years, 300,000 years are all scientifically false.
The Qur’an is scientifically false on this point.

Now, if you want to say a “period” an undetermined length of time then that is no miracle.

So is the Qur’an scientifically mistaken or simply lacking in any scientific miracles?

15
Brother Osama asserts that 36:38 is some kind of miracle.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

In fact it is plainly obvious.  Just look up in the sky during the day!  “The sun runs a course for a time to a fixed resting place.”
How can any reasonable person consider that to somehow be a miracle?  That is just a crude and erroneous description of the obvious.
The sun does not rest, it just seems to at sunset.
The sunset point is not fixed, rather it changes each day.
The sun was thought to orbit the Earth in those days, which is a far simpler explanation for the words than an asserted miracle of predicted galactic orbit.

Here is 36:38
Chapter (36) sūrat yā sīn
Sahih International: And the sun runs [on course] toward its stopping point. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.
Pickthall: And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.
Yusuf Ali: And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.
Shakir: And the sun runs on to a term appointed for it; that is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knowing.
Muhammad Sarwar: how the sun moves in its orbit and this is the decree of the Majestic and All-knowing God;
Mohsin Khan: And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.
Arberry: And the sun -- it runs to a fixed resting-place; that is the ordaining of the All-mighty, the All-knowing.

Brother Osama cites these verses
32:5, 34:2, 57:4, 70:3-4

Here is 32:5
Chapter (32) sūrat l-sajdah (The Prostration)
Sahih International: He arranges [each] matter from the heaven to the earth; then it will ascend to Him in a Day, the extent of which is a thousand years of those which you count.
Pickthall: He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon.
Yusuf Ali: He rules (all) affairs from the heavens to the earth: in the end will (all affairs) go up to Him, on a Day, the space whereof will be (as) a thousand years of your reckoning.
Shakir: He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count.
Muhammad Sarwar: He sends the regulation of the affair from the heavens to the earth, then on the day which is equal to one thousand years of yours, it will ascend to Him.
Mohsin Khan: He arranges (every) affair from the heavens to the earth, then it (affair) will go up to Him, in one Day, the space whereof is a thousand years of your reckoning (i.e. reckoning of our present world's time).
Arberry: He directs the affair from heaven to earth, then it goes up to Him in one day, whose measure is a thousand years of your counting.

Here is 34:2
Chapter (34) sūrat saba (Sheba)
Sahih International: He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what ascends therein. And He is the Merciful, the Forgiving.
Pickthall: He knoweth that which goeth into the earth and that which cometh forth from it, and that descendeth from the heaven and that which ascendeth into it. He is the Merciful, the Forgiving.
Yusuf Ali: He knows all that goes into the earth, and all that comes out thereof; all that comes down from the sky and all that ascends thereto and He is the Most Merciful, the Oft-Forgiving.
Shakir: He knows that which goes down into the earth and that which comes out of it, and that which comes down from the heaven and that which goes up to it; and He is the Merciful, the Forgiving.
Muhammad Sarwar: He knows all that enters the earth, all that comes out of it, all that descends from the sky and all that ascends to it. He is All-merciful and All-forgiving.
Mohsin Khan: He knows that which goes into the earth and that which comes forth from it, and that which descend from the heaven and that which ascends to it. And He is the Most Merciful, the OftForgiving.
Arberry: He knows what penetrates into the earth, and what comes forth from it, what comes down from heaven, and what goes up to it; He is the All-compassionate, the All-forgiving.

Here is 57:4
Chapter (57) sūrat l-ḥadīd (The Iron)
Sahih International: It is He who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne. He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what ascends therein; and He is with you wherever you are. And Allah , of what you do, is Seeing.
Pickthall: He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days; then He mounted the Throne. He knoweth all that entereth the earth and all that emergeth therefrom and all that cometh down from the sky and all that ascendeth therein; and He is with you wheresoever ye may be. And Allah is Seer of what ye do.
Yusuf Ali: He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days, and is moreover firmly established on the Throne (of Authority). He knows what enters within the earth and what comes forth out of it, what comes down from heaven and what mounts up to it. And He is with you wheresoever ye may be. And Allah sees well all that ye do.
Shakir: He it is who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firm in power; He knows that which goes deep down into the earth and that which comes forth out of it, and that which comes down from the heaven and that which goes up into it, and He is with you wherever you are; and Allah sees what you do.
Muhammad Sarwar: It is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then established His Dominion over the Throne. He knows whatever enters into the earth, what comes out of it, what descends from the sky, and what ascends to it. He is with you wherever you may be and He is Well Aware of what you do.
Mohsin Khan: He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then Istawa (rose over) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). He knows what goes into the earth and what comes forth from it, what descends from the heaven and what ascends thereto. And He is with you (by His Knowledge) wheresoever you may be. And Allah is the All-Seer of what you do.
Arberry: It is He that created the heavens and the earth in six days then seated Himself upon the Throne. He knows what penetrates into the earth, and what comes forth from it, -- what comes down from heaven, and what goes up unto it. He is with you wherever you are; and God sees the things you do.

Here is 70:3
Chapter (70) sūrat l-maʿārij (The Ways of Ascent)
Sahih International: [It is] from Allah , owner of the ways of ascent.
Pickthall: From Allah, Lord of the Ascending Stairways
Yusuf Ali: (A Penalty) from Allah, Lord of the Ways of Ascent.
Shakir: From Allah, the Lord of the ways of Ascent.
Muhammad Sarwar: No one can defend him against God, the Lord of the exalted positions.
Mohsin Khan: From Allah, the Lord of the ways of ascent.
Arberry: from God, the Lord of the Stairways.

Here is 70:4
Chapter (70) sūrat l-maʿārij (The Ways of Ascent)
Sahih International: The angels and the Spirit will ascend to Him during a Day the extent of which is fifty thousand years.
Pickthall: (Whereby) the angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years.
Yusuf Ali: The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years:
Shakir: To Him ascend the angels and the Spirit in a day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.
Muhammad Sarwar: On that Day (of Judgment), long as fifty thousand years, the angels and the Spirit will ascend to Him.
Mohsin Khan: The angels and the Ruh [Jibrael (Gabriel)] ascend to Him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years,
Arberry: To Him the angels and the Spirit mount up, in a day whereof the measure is fifty thousand years.


Brothers, where is the scientific miracle in all that?

Those verses are just meandering words asserting thrones and angels and spirits and stairways.  Not a bit of “scientific miracle” in any of it.

A day is either a day, or 1000 years, or 50,000 years.  So, according to the Qur’an, the universe and the Earth was created in either 6 days, 6000 years, or 300,000 years.
Wrong, wrong, and wrong, science tells us.

There are no scientific miracles in the Qur’an.



Pages: [1] 2 3 4