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wishing u all a blessed ramadan ahead.. may Allah show u the path to success in ...

I have been so busy lately ,hope I have more time soon to participate in our discussion ,inshallah.

and my advice for those brothers who try Ramadan for the first time to be gradual in fasting ,don't make it hard for yourself -.....

don't forget :
Holy Quran 2:286 On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear.

May Allah bless all...

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In the name of Allah most gracious most merciful.



I posted a thread before on that topic..... now I intend to post it again,with much elaborations and direct quotations of this missionary to be refuted.....

    O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three (thalathatun). Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector. S. 4:171

    They indeed have disbelieved who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. Say: Who then can do aught against Allah, if He had willed to destroy the Messiah son of Mary, and his mother and everyone on earth? Allah's is the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. He createth what He will. And Allah is Able to do all things. S. 5:17

    They are unbelievers who say, ‘God is the Messiah, Mary’s son.’ For the Messiah said, ‘Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Verily whoso associates with God anything, God shall prohibit him entrance to Paradise, and his refuge shall be the Fire; and wrongdoers shall have no helpers.’ They are unbelievers who say, 'God is the Third of Three (thalithu thalathatin). No god is there but One God. If they refrain not from what they say, there shall afflict those of them that disbelieve a painful chastisement. Will they not turn to God and pray His forgiveness? God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate. The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; Messengers before him passed away; his mother was a just woman; they both ate food. Behold, how We make clear the signs to them; then behold, how they perverted are! S. 5:70-75

The above passages presuppose that when Christians say God is three they meant God, Jesus and Mary. After all, why bother mentioning that Mary ate food and that Allah could destroy her if he wanted? Doesn’t this assume that she cannot be a god or goddess if she had to eat and could be annihilated?

 


You read it that way! , but:


    I'm sorry but your arguments make a number of assumptions and liberal interpretations to reach your desired conclusions. First, you make the assumption that the argument the Koran is putting forward is that since Mary and Jesus eat food, neither is God. Therefore, the Koran believes Mary is part of the Trinity. However, the argument could be easily construed, since Mary and Jesus ate food, both are nothing but plain humans. This doesn't imply that Mary was part of the trinity Godhead in the Koranic view, but merely that in the Koranic view Christians viewed her as something aside from another plain human being. As is described in the article itself, some Christian sects truly worshiped her and the Church itself put her forth as Godbearer, which is more than just another human being. Indeed, Catholics continue to address prayers to her, an act that would be considered shirk in Islam (i.e., associating others with God). Hence, the Koranic argument need not be interpreted as anything more than that Jesus and Mary are both human beings.


The next passage should help erase any doubts that this is what the Quran means by all this:

    And when God said, ‘O Jesus son of Mary, didst thou say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God"?’ He said, ‘To Thee be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, Thou knowest it, knowing what is within my soul, and I know not what is within Thy soul; Thou knowest the things unseen I only said to them what Thou didst command me: "Serve God, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness over them, while I remained among them; but when Thou didst take me to Thyself, Thou wast Thyself the watcher over them; Thou Thyself art witness of everything.’ S. 5:116-117

 

unfortunately ,the passage won't erase any doubts that this is what the Quran means by all this ,you ignored the fact that not every object referred to as (god) in the quran neccesarily requires it to be thought of as divine.....

well,as  nothing better than understanding the Qur'an by the Qur'an.....we need to check the verses with that use the same expression the expression is :

TO TAKE-WORSHIP اتخذوا  (X) , INSTEAD-IN DEROGATION OF  من دون (ALLAH) .....

 The formula (to take ....instead) is used inside and outside the context of worship....     Eg;
Holy Quran 27:55 "You are taking the men out of lust instead of the women! No, you are an ignorant people!"

Does the verse suggest those men as taking men for sexual pleasure besides women? Not at all ....The meaning is though they know the normal object for sexual intercourse (women) they approached the abnormal object(men) instead

The formula is used inside the context of worship in numerous instances

Holy Quran 27:24 I found her and her folk prostrating herself to the sun—instead of God—and Satan made to appear pleasing to them their actions and barred them from the way so they are not truly guided.

It seems that those folk could have thought the sun as God .

Holy Quran 39:38 If you should ask them who created Heaven and Earth, they would say: "God." SAY: "Have you (all) ever seen what you appeal to instead of  God [Alone]? If God wanted [to cause] me any trouble, would such females ever remove His trouble? Or if He wants some mercy for me, will such females hold back His mercy?" SAY: "God is [the Means] by Which I reckon; on Him do the reliant rely."

Holy Quran  10:18 They worship, instead of Allah, what can neither harm them nor help them, saying, ´These are our intercessors with Allah.´ Say: ´Would you inform Allah of something about which He does not know either in the heavens or on the earth?´ May He be glorified and exalted above what they associate with Him!

Holy Quran  36:23 Should I adopt other gods instead of Him? If the Mercy-giving should want any harm to me, their intercession would never help me out in any way nor would they rescue me:

Holy Quran  39:43 Or do they adopt intercessors instead of God? SAY: "Even though they do not control a thing and cannot even reason?"

we note that the previous objects of worship are (1) called gods .  (2) their worshipers didn't believe in them as God the creator ,they just intercede.
the same words (to take instead) are used in:

Holy Quran   9:31 They have taken  their learned men and their monks for their lords instead of God. So have they taken the Messiah, son of Mary, although they were commanded to worship only the One God. There is no deity but He. He is far above whatever they set up as His partners!

Have you seen,what the verse saying ?

1- your intentions should be consistent with your actions that counts ,it is not what you think you are doing but what you REALLY do.
2- veneration, asking for intercession etc . is considered worship in Islam even if the object of veneration is not believed to be divine…. It is enough that you direct any form of worship that is due to God alone for anyone, anything to turn him, her ,it to be god

2- though the objects of worshiped mentioned in the same verse viewed differently by their worshipers (Jesus as divine,saints are not) yet that is not the focus of the verse, the focus is on the act of worship itself, that is why it says " they were commanded to worship only the One God" ...

the same way with verse

Holy Quran 5:116 And as Allah said, "O Isa son of Maryam, (Jesus son of Mary) did you say to mankind, "Take me and my mother to your selves as two gods, apart fromAllah '?" He said, All Extolment be to You! In no way is it for me to say what I have no right to.

The verse is just one example of, the thought to be divine(Jesus) and the thought to be not divine yet could be intercessor and be venerated (Mary),be taken as gods ..
another verse

Holy Quran 3:64 SAY: "People of the Book, [let us] rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you, that we shall worship only God [Alone] a associate nothing else with Him, nor shall any of us take on others as lords instead of God." If they should turn away, then say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."


what Christians truly believe becomes apparent to anyone familiar with the basics of the Christian faith. In the first place, orthodox Christians have never taken Mary as a goddess alongside God. If the Quran were referring to a heretical group of Christians known as the Maryamites this would then serve to strengthen the position that these verses do not address Trinitarians, but apostates that deviated from the true faith.

Shirk in Islam doesn't  necessarily requires Mary to be believed in as a goddess alongside God ....  just once you direct to her ,what must be directed at God alone ,then you automatically made her god ...

let's listen to the common prayers of the world's largest Christian church, with over a billion members.

"Most Holy Virgin Mary, Help of Christian,how sweet it is to come to your feet imploring your perpetual help.If earthly mothers cease not to remember their children,how can you, the most loving of all mothers forget me?Grant then to me, I implore you, your perpetual help in all my necessities, in every sorrow, and especially in all my temptations.I ask for your unceasing help for all who are now suffering.Help the weak, cure the sick, convert sinners.Grant through your intercessions many vocations to the religious life. Obtain for us, O Mary, Help of Christians,that having invoked you on earth we may love and eternally thank you in heaven."

"Holy Mary,help those in need,give strength to the weak,comfort the sorrowful,pray for God's people,assist the clergy,intercede for religious.Mary all who seek your help experience your unfailing protection.Amen."


let's now listen to the opinion of your fellows of the orthodox christianity(the protestant type) of  their fellows of  the orthodox christianity(the catholic type)  regarding what they do with Mary;

just a sample quotes:


Quote from: [size=12pt
Roman Catholic Mary Worship by the evangelical minister John MacArthur Jr.  ]The Roman Catholic view of Mary is pagan, it is utterly pagan.[/size]

Quote from: Philip Schaff Excerpted from: "History of the Christian Church": Volume III, Nicene and Post-Nicene Christianity, A.D. 311-390 Chapter VII, P. 409-427 (§ 81.-83.)
To this day the worship of Mary is one of the principal points of separation between the Graeco-Roman Catholicism and Evangelical Protestantism.
the veneration of Mary gradually degenerated into the worship of Mary; and this took so deep hold upon the popular religious life in the Middle Age, that, in spite of all scholastic distinctions between latria, and dulia, and hyrerdulia, Mariolatry practically prevailed over the worship of Christ.
..The popular religious want had accustomed itself even to female deities, and very naturally betook itself first of all to Mary, the highly favored and blessed mother of the divine-human Redeemer, as the worthiest object of adoration.
The Festivals of Mary.
This mythical and fantastic, and, we must add, almost pagan and idolatrous Mariology impressed itself on the public cultus in a series of festivals, celebrating the most important facts and fictions of the life of the Virgin, and in some degree running parallel with the festivals of the birth, resurrection, and ascension of Christ
.

Quote from: Roman Catholicism, Mary, and Idolatry ,by Matt Slick, President and Founder of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry.
Does the Roman Catholic Church promote idolatry? According to the scripture and its own practices, yes it does. "Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry," (1 Cor. 10:14).

 
Quote from: Nick Goggin
[size=12pt
Watchmen Bible Study Group]It has been said that actions speak louder than words. And while the average Catholic may tell you that they do not worship the Mother Mary, their actions say something quite different. [/size].





















we have already indicated that the historic Christian teaching has never been that God is three or the third of three, which would be tritheism (three separate gods forming a unity) as opposed to Trinity (Tri-unity), ONE God who exists in Three distinct yet inseparable Persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit). Third, orthodox Christians have never taught as part of their doctrine that Jesus is the third Person of the Trinity. Rather, he is the Second Person

that is irrelevant to the verse ..... nowhere in the verse that it says christians belive that Allah is three , or jesus is third of three , or Allah is the third of three (as you will see later).

Fourth, Muslims believe that Allah of the Quran is the same as God the Father of the Holy Bible

right this time.




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peace be upon you


Holy Quran 47:24 Do they not then reflect on the Quran?

I was reading something about crows, that reminded me of the the noble verse :

Holy Quran 5:31 But recite unto them with truth the tale of the two sons of Adam, how they offered each a sacrifice, and it was accepted from the one of them and it was not accepted from the other. (The one) said: I will surely kill thee. (The other) answered: Allah accepteth only from those who ward off (evil). Even if thou stretch out thy hand against me to kill me, I shall not stretch out my hand against thee to kill thee, lo! I fear Allah, the Lord of the Worlds. Lo! I would rather thou shouldst bear the punishment of the sin against me and thine own sin and become one of the owners of the fire. That is the reward of evil-doers. But (the other's) mind imposed on him the killing of his brother, so he slew him and became one of the losers. Then Allah sent a crow digging up the earth so that he might show him how he should cover the dead body of his brother. He said: Woe me! do I lack the strength that I should be like this crow and cover the dead body of my brother? So he became of those who regret. (Surah 5:27-32 Pickthall)



take a look ....


http://www.squidoo.com/crow-bird

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/DyeHard/story?id=524845&page=1

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/06/060606-crows.html

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_crow_the_most_intelligent_bird

videos on Crow Intelligence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpgCQj-sgqk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZH01-dt-LJM

http://blog.ted.com/2008/05/13/joshua_klein/

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Hundreds of heated online debates ...  between Muslims and Christians ,Unitarians and Trinitarians on "Is the Trinity biblical?"....   such debates attract numerous Muslim audience ,to the limit that some of them dedicate most of their times searching for whatever new debates related would appear online !!!..
many Muslims mistakenly believe that the only difference between Islam and Christianity is the issue of the nature of Jesus,that is why there are numerous Muslim-christian debates on the trinity.
I was once addicted to view such debates ,and debating others on the same topic.....  till I found out after reflection ,that me and other Muslims are wasting their time in such futile debates.....

Why Muslims err when they debate Christians whether the trinity is in the bible or not?

The following is my positive criticism regarding the matter :

I have noted several mistakes committed by those good Muslims (whom I respect and wish them the best) who are,were involved in trinity debates ...

The first mistake:

They exaggerate the significance of the issue with regard to the difference between Islam and Christianity ....
their mistake here is that they are not fully aware of Islam opposing ,not only how the Christians suggest the nature of Jesus is ,but also how would they suggested his role in both past and future ,in addition to all that Islam opposes strongly the concept of blood atonement .

.................................

The second mistake:

most of them, don't realize the big difference between , the Question, Is Jesus God? and Does the bible say Jesus is God?

I contacted many Muslims whom though know the Quranic attitude towards the bible ( as partially inspired with some added fabrications therein),yet they would never put into their consideration ,the possibility that among the uninspired passages in the Bible there could be ones suggests the divinity of Jesus .
They accept that the new testament falsely teaches the crucifixion,resurrection of Jesus ,yet they will never accept that the some biblical passages ,at least possibly be understood as teaching a divinity of Jesus !!!
Their common argument is just those who belong to mainstream Christianity misunderstood them !

Now hold on ... dear Muslim pause and think !

1- Don't you realize that arguing that way,would give the impression that we accept such verses as inspired,it is just we disagree with  Christians regarding how it should be understood !!

That is clearly against Islam , I will give just one example:

Do you know what is the Muslim-christian argument of the famous trinity proof text in John 1:1 ?

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

If you notice, the dispute is whether the word (logos) is God, or "... a god" or "... divine" ...
Hasn't the Muslim debater already assumed that the problem is not the passage but the way Christians understand it?!
if so ,what would he suggest the proper understanding would be? ...... it would be logically the second option..... if so , would he accept Jesus as a god (not God) or in some sense divine? is that Quranic?



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I intend the study inshallah to be as much comprehensive as to address all the points related to the topic ,including answering the christian delusions regarding the quranic holy spirit ,the issue of Mary with regard to trinity etc.....

I read almost all what is written by Christians regarding those matters and the counter rebuttals by Muslims ,and have some more to add to what they wrote inshallah....
..........................................

We as Muslims held the belief of the trinity as just one chapter of the book of shirk …The overwhelmingly powerful assertion in the Quran that God is absolutely one rules out any notion that another being could share his sovereignty or nature …..
The Quran’s view the Christian doctrine of the Trinity involves an association of creature with God the creator, an infidelity that participates in the pagan infidelity of polytheism....


Christians on the other hand , used to affirm that trinity and true monotheism are compatible ,that Muslims misunderstand the trinity,that the Qur'an accuses a sectarian trinity "Father,Mary,Son" etc......

                                   

                                        A Muslim christian dialogue


                                              1st Issue :3 gods? 

Christian: God for me and orthodox Christians, three divine persons Father, Son,and Holy Spirit distinctly coexisting in unity as co-equal, co-eternal, and consubstantial , or of one being According to this doctrine, God exists as three persons but is one God, meaning that God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have exactly the same nature or being as God the Father in every way. Whatever attributes and power God the Father has, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have as well. "Thus, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are also eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, infinitely wise, infinitely holy, infinitely loving, and omniscient."
you Muslims misunderstood that,and accuse us of believing in three gods ....

Muslim :


First : Not true that Muslims accuse Christians that they believe in 3 gods...

god (with small g) means false one,isn't it ?  if so trinity isn't 3 gods,according to Islam ... read the following Islamic definition of God to get the clue.


What is God, according to Islam?

He is the entity that sent Jesus and appointed for him a mission,we call him (Allah)...Christians would like to call such being by (the father) .... Well, though we think he is a father of no one... we won't prohibit you from calling him what you wish, but pay attention....Whenever we mention the word (Allah ) whom you call (the father) we believe in him as the full un-manifested deity. He doesn’t mean for us one of the three aspects of the deity. Allah (what Christians call the father) is not what you think the incomplete definition of the deity but he is the full UN-personified deity.....

Allah (whom they call the father, considering him just one of the three manifestation of the divine being ) is the only divine entity to be exist and to be alone worshiped ...he doesn't need neither (the son),nor (the holy spirit) to complete the Godhead..... he is simply alone there ....
The Quran accuses Christians with ascribing mortal partners to the almighty,besides ,offering the worship that is due to Allah alone ...


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                                         " Origin of Christianity"


                     In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.



NOTE : NT  is the New Testament , OT  is the Old Testament.

for years and I try to solve the puzzle of why the writers of the new testament held those theologies which goes against Islam ....  why they elevated Jesus such elevation ,why they believed in him as atoning with his blood the sinful. etc etc...

I used to believe that such corruption is due to some pagans who imported pagan themes eg; the story of Krishna etc....

but after engaging myself with more profound readings ,I no longer hold that position .... 
I believe that such corruption was derived from some themes of the old testament then been developed by Jewish hands ... 

to properly understand the origin of Christianity we need to understand the mentality of the writers of the new testament ,their intentions .... getting the intentions of the writers would get us the clue of the origin of Christianity ....

we don't have a time machine to go back interviewing the writers, but fortunately we have enough from what they wrote to understand their intentions ..

What is Christianity ? Christianity emerged as a Jewish sect ,whose founders had desires and wishful thinking based on the Jewish messianic hopes ,It is the messianic hope that made them develop ,distort, pervert, and concoct Old testament ,etc.......

the following study I tried to get the matter in great details ,including the Quranic input along with the biblical and historical input .

The best place to understand the intentions of the writers of the new testament ,is when we check and examine what they borrowed from the old testament ,as what they borrowed from the Old testament is the foundation of their theology....

we won't get directly examining their use(quoutations) of the old testament ,before getting the context .......

                    chapter one : the historical context of Christianity.


our context is? Christianity emerged in the Second Temple Period that ran from 520 B.C. - A.D. 70, ending with the destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.


              The Jewish scene in second temple period ?



First : Timeline.

1020-922 undivided monarchy
922 Solomon’s kingdom divided into Northern (Israel) and Southern (Judah)
721 Northern kingdom is defeated by the Assyrians
597-538 Babylonian exile; 587 Temple destroyed
538-332 Persian rule; 520 Temple rebuilt. Second Temple Judaism begins.
332-167 Hellenization under Alexander the Great and his successors from Egypt & Syria
167-63 Hundred years of independence under Maccabees
63 BC Roman conquest of Palestine. Independence lost till 20th c. AD!
1-33 ?  the mission of Jesus .
70 AD Second Temple destroyed.



                      second : A huge crisis and intense diversity



Holy Quran 043:063  When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.





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