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Messages - Din Yaqin

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Hadeeth and Sunnah.

I consider myself to be closest to the Ahlul-Quran. I was a Quranist for over 10 years and did my best to answer all angles, all questions and all criticisms of Quranists themselves and those who do not find the Quranist position to be valid.  The only reason I am not a Hadeeth rejector in full is because of this following quote of Imam Al-Bazdawi which coincides with most of the Sunnies position on Aaahad hadeeth. 

Imam al Bazdawi (RH) said: “The Wahid provides necessity in actions but not with ‘ilm (certain knowledge), and we explained that mashoor doesn’t provide ‘ilm, so āhād or Wahid certainly does not. The Wahid does, however, have possibility and he who denies this has misguided his mind and himself.”

Please check out the following forum link and related topics for further clarification.

Read more: http://quranists.proboards.com/thread/44/proof-saheeh-hadeeth-conjecture#ixzz49EpleNJP

With that said, NO hadeeth should have extra-quranic religious authority. Mutawaatir hadeeth MUST apparently coincide with the mutawaatir Qur'an. And NO Ahaad hadeeth or practice (saheeh or otherwise) should be declared obligatory upon any Muslim because of the possiblity that it could be false. The gravity of making such claims of certainty and obligation when it comes to even saheeh hadeeth and mash-hood pratices is the follow mutawaatir hadeeth:

“Whoever tells a lie against me deliberately, let him take his place in Hell.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 107; Muslim, 3; Abu Dawood, 3651; al-Tirmidhi, 2661; Ibn Maajah, 30, 37; and Ahmad, 2/159.

This hadeeth was narrated by more than seventy-two Sahaabah, and was narrated from them by a huge number of narrators whom it is impossible to list.

6:112 affirms this. The Quran also speaks about false testimony and adhering to conjecture in our religion.

We CANNOT obligate any non-mutawaatir hadeeth upon ANY Muslim because if we do so, it is possible that we are obligating people to follow falsehood and not true. And we are obligating them to follow doubt and conjecture and not certainty and knowledge.

With that said let's continue to talk about whether these non-mutawaatir hadeeth really represent the prophet Muhammad (saas) and his true companions? Let's talk about the books and sayings attributed to scholars that were passed down in an non-mutawaatir fashion and whether we should really be claiming that these scholar said these things.

Ahaad hadeeth can ONLY be optional and should only be accepted when they enhance and improve our adherence to the Quran, plain and simple. And even when accepted by some, they CANNOT be made obligatory upon any Muslims as has been happening in the Muslims world for a millenia.

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Cults & Deviant Beliefs / Re: rebuttal on Ahlul Quran's Claim?
« on: May 21, 2016, 12:48:17 pm »
I recognize the efforts that many of these scholars put forth to try to discern the truth from the many sayings and practices that developed after the prophet Muhammad passed (saas). However, the problem is that they made obligatory what should not have been made obligatory. As I said, mash-hoor is not mutawaatir. And sound Ahaad are not either. Practices and sayings that are not demonstrably mutawaatir and Quranic simultaneously cannot be made obligatory upon any Muslim. And I cannot just trust the scholars blindly. It's funny that it's hard to determine if the work of Imam Abu Haneefah and Imam Malik were given correctly recorded from them, as they did not actually author their own works. So it is difficult to tell if what we have inherited from them is mutawaatir and true or fabricated by their self-proclaimed students.

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Cults & Deviant Beliefs / Re: rebuttal on Ahlul Quran's Claim?
« on: May 21, 2016, 12:39:16 pm »
Peace,

I have yet to see tawaatur being proven in these methods. Imam Malik saw that the people of Medina did certain things in their majority, but it seems that he did not get further than mash-hoor in what he put forward. If you read about him you will learn about MANY scholars in Medina during his time who held many different opinions.

I have also seen a lot of inconsistency in what is considered tawaatur. Sometimes Ahaad hadeeth that can be attributed to a number of sahaabah is considered mutawaatir, even if there are common narrators in the chains that coincide or could have colluded. These hadeeth are often not really mutawaatir. The concept of mutawaatir is flawless and the hadeeth that all scholars agree upon as being mutawaatir are only a handful. Much of what is mash-hoor or seemingly widespread is wrongly called mutawaatir. Some may assume that because all Muslims or schools of thought agree upon something that that thing is mutawaatir. That is mistaken. The thing is mash-hoor but not mutawaatir. Mutawaatir has to be clearly demonstrated and that is where the scholars lack. I have not seen them clearly demonstrated tawaatur, but rather settling for mash-hoor or other "acceptable" aahaad hadeeth that conform what seem to be preconceptions or alread established practices or beliefs.

In a way you have highlighted the problem...too many methodologies, and too may concepts of what is obligatory and what is not based on hadeeth. Much is said about these scholars but none of their methodologies are made fully clear. Ijmaa' is not mutawaatir, and neither is mash-hoor. When that is taken into consideration it seems that much of the consistency of the methodologies fade away. 

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Cults & Deviant Beliefs / Re: rebuttal on Ahlul Quran's Claim?
« on: May 21, 2016, 10:01:39 am »
Wa Alaykumu-salaam,

Thank you for responding to me with courtesy and intelligence. I would go a bit further and question the tawaatur of even the number of prayers (5 being based on hadeeth Aahaad associated with the mi'raaj). It is very true that the skeleton of the salaat could be tawaatur, however as far as I have seen it has only been shown to be mash-hoor. Lisanul-Arab has a portion that defines a rak'ah, in its meaning of unit of post-Quranic Salaat it states that the bowing of rukoo' does not have to be made, although most consider it makrooh. I am looking for further evidence/proof of the tawaatur of the formula of the rak'ah for Salaah as we know it. The 5 prayers seem to be mash-hoor (as with most practices assumed to be sunnah 3amaliyyah) but both the Quran and Ibn Katheer conform more with 2 prayers a day before the Ahaad hadeeth associated with Salaat after the Mi'raaj. I also watched a Hanafi scholar on youtube talk about how some commands attributed to the last prophet in hadeeth are interpreted as recommendations (like where he is recorded to have said in a saheeh narration 'Wear white clothes') and others are taken as commands that must be followed. This approach seems highly hypocritical and disingenuous where scholars arbitrarily determine what is a command and what is a recommendation using very flimsy logic. Not to mention that each scholars or group of scholars studies of jarh wa ta'deel can change the status of a hadeeth in any given book of "saheeh" traditions. For instance I have heard that Bukhari did not leave a jarh and ta'deel study or methodology for the hadeeth he declared a saheeh. Other scholars did this for him later.

What is the name of the Pakistani scholar?  I have no problem with scrapping "beloved traditions" as long as we do not make obligations where Allah has not made them, and the true religion of the Qur'an is not distorted. At this point is seems TOO many distortions have been made in the name of acquiring and adhering to our last prophet's sunnah using hadeeth which are generally agreed upon as possibly being false, and assuming that such hadeeth are so representative of the last prophet that they are equal to or superior to what the Quran seems to be saying to us through its words and wordings.

Salaam,
Din Yaqin

5
Cults & Deviant Beliefs / Re: rebuttal on Ahlul Quran's Claim?
« on: May 20, 2016, 06:10:35 pm »
To clarify I agree with the majority orthodox, shia and ibadhi opinon that Ahaad hadeeth can be true. Howevever, I disagree that they are obligatory upon the Muslim IN ANY FASHION, because it is almost unanimously recognized that these hadeeth can be false and that they are conjectural and only convey doubt.


6
Cults & Deviant Beliefs / Re: rebuttal on Ahlul Quran's Claim?
« on: May 20, 2016, 06:06:55 pm »
I consider myself to be closes to the Ahlul-Quran. I was a Quranist for over 10 years and did my best to answer all angles, all questions and all criticisms of Quranists themselves and those who do not find the Quranist position to be valid.  The only reason I am not a Hadeeth rejector in full is because of this following quote of Imam Al-Bazdawi which coincides with most of the Sunnies position on Aaahad hadeeth. 

Imam al Bazdawi (RH) said: “The Wahid provides necessity in actions but not with ‘ilm (certain knowledge), and we explained that mashoor doesn’t provide ‘ilm, so āhād or Wahid certainly does not. The Wahid does, however, have possibility and he who denies this has misguided his mind and himself.”

Please check out the following forum link and related topics for further clarification.

Read more: http://quranists.proboards.com/thread/44/proof-saheeh-hadeeth-conjecture#ixzz49EpleNJP

With that said, NO hadeeth should have extra-quranic religious authority. Mutawaatir hadeeth MUST apparently coincide with the mutawaatir Qur'an. And NO Ahaad hadeeth or practice (saheeh or otherwise) should be declared obligatory upon any Muslim because of the possiblity that it could be false. The gravity of making such claims of certainty and obligation when it comes to even saheeh hadeeth and mash-hood pratices is the follow mutawaatir hadeeth:

“Whoever tells a lie against me deliberately, let him take his place in Hell.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 107; Muslim, 3; Abu Dawood, 3651; al-Tirmidhi, 2661; Ibn Maajah, 30, 37; and Ahmad, 2/159.

This hadeeth was narrated by more than seventy-two Sahaabah, and was narrated from them by a huge number of narrators whom it is impossible to list.

6:112 affirms this. The Quran also speaks about false testimony and adhering to conjecture in our religion.

We CANNOT obligate any non-mutawaatir hadeeth upon ANY Muslim because if we do so, it is possible that we are obligating people to follow falsehood and not true. And we are obligating them to follow doubt and conjecture and not certainty and knowledge.

With that said let's continue to talk about whether these non-mutawaatir hadeeth really represent the prophet Muhammad (saas) and his true companions? Let's talk about the books and sayings attributed to scholars that were passed down in an non-mutawaatir fashion and whether we should really be claiming that these scholar said these things.

Ahaad hadeeth can ONLY be optional and should only be accepted when they enhance and improve our adherence to the Quran, plain and simple. And even when accepted by some, they CANNOT be made obligatory upon any Muslims as has been happening in the Muslims world for a millenia.

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