GOD's forgiveness in Islam and Christianity:

From http://www.f24.parsimony.net/forum54389/messages/8184.htm

Written by yishan jufu at 07 Sep 2001 10:17:08:

Brad- Unfortunately, proud people can't see that they need to turn to God for forgiveness.

yi shan- i'm afraid that young Brad has a lot to learn about Islam and muslims! We are not proud in terms of "we do good works therefore God has to accept us"! We are proud humans who take pride in obeying God's commands, thanking Him all the time for all that He has besowed on us (like our health, food, gift of brains, guidance, etc.), etc.
No real muslim will "proudly" brag about how good they are or how they expect God to deal with them; we merely do our part in obediance and worship to The Only True God who created all; we seek His mercy and blessing.

Brad-
Matthew 9:11 When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and `sinners'?"

12. On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.

13. But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

yi shan- I tend to agree with the first half of Mat 9:13, as for the second half; i have some reservations! The first half (about desire mercy, not sacrifice) is absolutely true; that is why the notion (as propagated by the pauling church) that God did not forgive the sin of Adam is against the very nature of The Merciful God; and the above verse says it well; for God does not need sacrifices and burnt (or human) offerings. God is merciful and capable of forgiving any sin once the sinner repents.
As for the second half of Mat 9:13; if it was true, then we will have to address a group of christians as "proud" since they might think themselves as "the righteous" who do not need to "be called"!

Brad- Sin is rebellion against God. It is a challenge to his authority. Anyone who breaks the law is a law breaker. Breaking God's law is called sin. What is the penalty for challengeing God's authority? "the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23 When you've been given the death penalty there is no way you can get out of it, it doesn't matter how much you work or how much you say you will do because the punishment has already been fixed. In Islam when a man has been sentenced to death for murder do the authorities suddenly change their minds and say he only has to be kind from now on? No they don't, neither will God. He expects us to be just because he is just. The only way out is if you are forgiven. If you were sentenced to death and the judge offered you a free pardon and his hand in friendship, what kind of man would you be to reject that? If you rejected that offer you would deserve to die. The person who does not receive Gods free gift (pardon) acts as though God is a liar, he is treating God as though he is someone who cannot be believed and consequently rejects his only hope.

yi shan- I'm afraid that you did not study Islam well enough and that's why you still make such analogies and wrong assumptions! In Islam (as with civil laws), there are three parties involved in any murder case -the murdered person (and his/her family), the community and God's laws.
Islam does allow for reconcilation between the murdered and parties 1 & 2 (the deceased's family and community/authorities) in that it allows the victim's family to forgive the murderer -if they choose to- and in return the murderer has to pay the family what is called "the diyyah" (not to be confused as the value of the dead person!); under such circumstances, the authorities may release the murderer at the request of the dead victim's family (heirs).
But there is still another Just Judge (God), does God tolerate injustices like cold-blooded murder?! No, for He has stated clearly in all His revealed scriptures that murder is wicked and that "an eye for an eye". Does that mean that God cannot forgive the murderer? No, it does not mean so; for God forgives everything except "shirk/kufr" (associating others with Him/blasphemy) that one sticks to until death. But God is Just, and in His just system there is a "points system", our every deed is recorded by angels and on the judgement day, God judges according to our own records so no one can claim to be victimised (forbid) by God. One's own works/deeds will be a witness for or against him/her. The good deeds are weighted against the bad ones, and whichever is greater will result in the just verdict of God. However, this does not mean that we earn our way into heaven merely by our works; this is not the whole picture; we are rewarded through GOD's MERCY; however, for sins against our fellow humans (called the rights of people), God will ask us for such debts and we will get a deserved "punishment" because God is Mercy and Merciful, not so are the humans. The punishment will be in accordance to God's will and just system; then the offender is pardoned out of hell into everlasting heaven. But all of the above is left to the just judgement of The All Just Judge "God" and He does as He pleases, but He is merciful and He does not require sacrifices nor crucifixions to forgive sins; forgiveness is a reward to what's in the heart of the sinner, not in what he/she offer on an altar! The altar offerings are a small penalty paid up by the sinner who wants to repent to God, but the sacrifice in itself is not meant for God as God does not require any sort of sacrifice to consume; the purpose of sacrifices is corrected and well-defined in the quran (as opposed to the twisted ones of the priests of temples who were after earthly possessions and gains). Sacrifice is a penalty paid by the sinner and it should go to THE COMMUNITY OF THE NEEDY, as a means of sharing the gifts of God with your brothers/sisters who are not as lucky as you to have meat on the table everyday or at all. It builds up social ties and good will between members of society as well as help feed the poor, who otherwise will never taste such food.
Going back to the "wages of sin being death", i believe this is one of the most mis-interpreted, mis-understood concepts by christians! What is meant by "death"; is it physical or spiritual 'death'?! We know that it cannot be "physical death" simply because you would have to -then- question jesus' warnings about hell and its everlasting punishment to those who do not believe. So, is it "spiritual death"?! Again, what is a spirit, and does it die?! Many christian apologists and bible interpreters tried to give various meanings to such biblical verses (including those dealing with adam and eating of the tree), but they all have failed to give any logical explanation! The quran did give the following explanation:

the quranic account is superior to that of the bible in terms of portraying the true picture, for God cannot be surprised and "without plans" for His creation; neither is God unable to forgive a single sin and Has to hold a grudge against all of adam's seed until he turns into a man and dies (forbid) to forgive that tiny sin!
God had a plan for mankind before He created adam as the verses above indicate (2:30 I will create a vicegerent on earth..); this was before the creation of adam; whereas the biblical account portrays God as being "reactive" to events as if He does not know anything (forbid)! The quran is the corrector of previous scriptures that were tampered with through the hands of scribes and priests.

Brad- Romans 4:3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

4. Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.

5. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Don't be like the fool who rejects a gift because he thinks it is too good to be true. If God is good, can he be too good?

yi shan- Muslims are not the fools, i'm afraid it is the other way around! God is good and we know this, but God is not a man nor a changing God! He is The Merciful and The All forgiving, your system portrays Him as not so and as one who needs sacrifices and loves the sight of "blood shed" (forbid)! The quran came to correct this human, materialistic rendetion of God; it shows you that God is real merciful and has high regard for each one of us, that's why your claims of "personal" relations with God are flawed ones since you need (according to your system) a coat hanger to hang your sins upon and to pay for your sins; whereas God tells us in the quran that justice dictates that everyone is responsible for their own deeds, no one carries the sins or goods of another; therefore, our relationship with God is The personal and direct one as depicted here:

regards.

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