Responding to Sam Shamoun’s attempted rebuttal: Revisiting God’s Command to Kill the Amalekites.

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Responding to Sam Shamoun’s attempted rebuttal

 

Revisiting God’s Command to Kill the Amalekites:

Analyzing One Muslim’s Response

 

By Sami Zaatari

 

 

 

http://www.answeringislam.net/Responses/Osama/zaatri_amalikites.htm

 

 

Missionary Sam Shamoun has finally mustered up the guts to respond to my continuous rebuttals to his articles. He has taken aim at my response to his article:

 

 http://www.answeringislam.net/Shamoun/q_amalekites.htm

 

To which I responded:

 

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttal_to_sam_shamoun_47.htm

 

This will now be my counter rebuttal to his ‘attempted’ response.

 

To begin with I would first like to quote the ending of Shamoun’s article when he claimed that:

 

In conclusion, the readers should be able to see that Zaatri is perhaps the worst of Osama’s writers and the least qualified to critique Christianity or defend Islam. His material is so bad that he even makes Osama’s articles look good!

We will shortly see that this is just a cheap shot aimed at me, as we will see Shamoun has refuted nothing at all and that my initial rebuttal still stands. Now since Shamoun claims I am the worst writer, I thought I would return the favor by directing readers to some of Shamoun’s worst articles which prove he is the one who has no qualifications what so ever:

 

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttal_to_sam_shamoun_16.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttaltosamshamoun30.htm

 

In fact let me quote the article that this rebuttal is dealing with. I will quote Shamoun’s own words and you can be the judge:

 

Thus, God was completely justified in demanding their complete annihilation in light of their willful disobedience and defiance.

 

Hence, from a biblical perspective God is even just in commanding the death of infants and children since even they will grow up to rebel and sin against their Maker.

 

Shamoun is basically justifying the slaughter of women and children. These are the verses that speak of this slaughter:

 

 

Deuteronomy
Chapter 2

32-37

 

And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. 33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. 36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us

 

Also note Shamoun justifies the killings of babies just because they are born sinners! This means they never had a chance to repent, and due to the fact that they died as sinners, they go straight to hell. Talk about being a bad writer!!

 

We now proceed to his response:

 

 

He Wrote

 

Sami Zaatri has written a so-called "response" to my paper, What about God commanding the annihilation of the Amalekites?

He begins by claiming that the Quran never commands the killing of women and children, and the narrates hadiths where Muhammad forbade their killing in Muslim raids. These lies and distortions have already been addressed here:

http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Abualrub/terrorism1.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Abualrub/terrorism2.htm

 

My Response

 

Where did I lie or distort anything? Let me quote the Quran again and the hadith to show I did not distort or lie about anything:

 

004.075

YUSUFALI: And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"

 

So as you can see, the Quran says fight for oppressed women and children, the Bible just says to kill them.

 

The prophet Muhammad also forbade the killing of women and children:

 

Volume 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 257.

Narrated By 'Abdullah : During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a woman was found killed. Allah's Apostle disapproved the killing of women and children.

 

Volume 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 258.

Narrated By Ibn 'Umar : During some of the Ghazawat of Allah's Apostle a woman was found killed, so Allah's Apostle forbade the killing of women and children.

So tell me, where am I distorting anything? I am quoting the hadith and the Quran word for word, so it is you who is giving out false accusations.

 

 

He Wrote

So there is no need to repeat ourselves. He then cites 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and asks the very na´ve question as to how do I know that such OT commands are not binding any longer on Christians. Again, instead of reinventing the wheel by responding to a point that has been already addressed, we simply defer the discussion to the following articles:

http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/fulfilled.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/sword2.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/sword.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/allahs_wars.htm
http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/retaliation.htm

 

My Response

 

Giving links out doesn’t really help you out, especially when your linking a man who is a known liar after I exposed him time and time again. This man happens to be James Arlandson, the man Shamoun is linking. Here are my responses to James:

 

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttal_to_james3.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttal_to_james_4.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttal_to_james2.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttal_to_james_5.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttaltojamesarlandson1.htm

 

 

 

So note, Shamoun does not respond, he just gives links to a man who I have been refuting as well. So this makes it even more hilarious that he claimed I am terrible and have no qualifications when he cannot answer my simple question.

 

So I will ask it again, how do you know the OT isn’t binding on your anymore? I will tell you this much, those links you provided do not answer the question neither.

 

Secondly, just say the OT is no more binding on you that still does not erase the fact that women and children were slaughtered. So no matter how you try to look at it, you’re still in a hole.

 

 

He Wrote

Zaatri next distorts an OT text in order to refute my claim that OT wars were not intended to convert people. He has the audacity to quote Deuteronomy 13 to prove his case, which says:

"If a prophet arises among you, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder which he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him, and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and cleave to him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the LORD your God, WHO BROUGHT YOU OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT AND REDEEMED YOU OUT OF THE HOUSE OF BONDAGE, to make you leave the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from the midst of you. If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, some of the gods of the peoples that are round about you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him; but you shall kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and never again do any such wickedness as this among you. If you hear in one of your cities, which the LORD your God gives you to dwell there, that certain base fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of the city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently; and behold, if it be true and certain that such an abominable thing has been done among you, you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, destroying it utterly, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square, and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God; it shall be a heap for ever, it shall not be built again. None of the devoted things shall cleave to your hand; that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and show you mercy, and have compassion on you, and multiply you, AS HE SWORE TO YOUR FATHERS, if you obey the voice of the LORD your God, keeping all his commandments which I command you this day, and doing what is right in the sight of the LORD your God." Deuteronomy 13:1-18

As anyone carefully reading this text can see, the Lord was addressing the Israelites, the covenant community, NOT THE GENTILE NATIONS. God was telling the Israelites that if they were to worship other gods after all that God had supernaturally done for them then they would suffer the just penalty. So Zaatri is lying when he tried to distort this text to prove that God forced Israel to fight wars in order to convert people. That is the religion of Islam, not the true religion of God.

 

My Response

 

Actually, I think you should read your bible a bit more carefully. I shall quote it again:

 

 

 

"If a prophet arises among you, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder which he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him, and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and cleave to him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the LORD your God, WHO BROUGHT YOU OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT AND REDEEMED YOU OUT OF THE HOUSE OF BONDAGE, to make you leave the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from the midst of you. If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, some of the gods of the peoples that are round about you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him; but you shall kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and never again do any such wickedness as this among you. If you hear in one of your cities, which the LORD your God gives you to dwell there, that certain base fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of the city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently; and behold, if it be true and certain that such an abominable thing has been done among you, you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, destroying it utterly, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square, and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God; it shall be a heap for ever, it shall not be built again. None of the devoted things shall cleave to your hand; that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and show you mercy, and have compassion on you, and multiply you, AS HE SWORE TO YOUR FATHERS, if you obey the voice of the LORD your God, keeping all his commandments which I command you this day, and doing what is right in the sight of the LORD your God." Deuteronomy 13:1-18

 

So the verses are telling the Israelites, that if anyone comes to you, and tells you to come worship other Gods you should then kill them. It doesn’t matter if you are in Singapore or Egypt, as the verses say from one end of the earth to another. This means that if any body went to the people of the covenant and asked them to come worship another God, that person would be put to death. So yes the God of Israel did command people to go and kill people who worshiped other Gods.

 

Secondly, in my initial rebuttal, where did I say this was referring to the Gentile nations? Here is what I said:

 

Actually correction, the OT does make it clear, if you worship another God other than the one of the Israelites, then you would be killed:

 

And

 

So Shamoun is wrong. People would be killed just on the fact they worshiped other Gods, not because of their bad actions they committed

 

This was in response to what Shamoun said:

 

Second, none of the OT wars were fought with the purpose of forcibly converting the pagans to the religion of Israel. God commanded these wars for the specific purpose of punishment and judgment, that the time had come for God to punish specific peoples for all of their atrocious acts and abominations, some of which included the following:

 

So as anyone can see, I was correcting Shamoun’s false information, which I did. He claims wars and killings were conducted because of people’s bad actions and so on. I showed him people were also killed if they tried to make you worship their own God.

 

So I did not distort anything, nor did I even mention any gentiles! Anyone who knows how to read and understand properly will see that I was specifically referring to the Israelites. So it is Shamoun who is distorting what I said. He cannot even quote me right, so hence he is misleading his own Christian readers, just like Paul did.

 

Also how does Shamoun know that this rule cannot be followed by Christians today? He did not answer this question before, so hence I have to ask him again.

 

 

He Wrote

 

And contrary Zaatri’s claim, Muhammad did fail the biblical test of prophethood and was indeed a false prophet, refer to these articles.

 

My Response

 

Actually, he did not. The Prophet Muhammad never even fit the description of a false prophet! Visit this article:

 

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/false_prophets.htm

 

Also most of your articles on Prophet Muhammad failing the test of being a prophet have also been refuted by me:

 

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttal_to_sam_shamoun_42.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttal_to_sam_shamoun_42_part2.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttal_to_sam_shamoun_42_part3.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttaltosamshamoun36.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/jesusormuhammad.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttaltosamshamoun26.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttaltosamshamoun29.htm

 

 

He Wrote

 

Zaatri thinks that my bringing up original sin somehow backfires against me. But as we shall now see this will end up backfiring against Muhammad. He distorts the Christian position by claiming that children will go to hell since they will not be able to repent.

Zaatri has erroneously concluded from my discussion that a child who is born in original sin and happens to suffer physical death due to the judgment that God brings upon a land automatically ends up going to hell. The fact of the matter is that this does not follow at all from what I had written. In the first place, the Holy Bible doesn’t explicitly deal with the issue of what happens to infants that die. It deals with individuals who can hear and discern the message for themselves, i.e. what would happen to an individual who heard the message of salvation and decided to reject it.

 

My Response

 

Actually what I said is true. In fact let me quote you once again:

 

Hence, from a biblical perspective God is even just in commanding the death of infants and children since even they will grow up to rebel and sin against their Maker.

 

Shamoun is trying to justify the murder of children on the fact that they are born sinners, and that God knew they would grow up to become bad, so he just got rid of them early on. That basically means that the babies go to hell!!!!

 

So it seems you cannot even follow what you write.

 

Also, since you state children are born sinners, and the only way to repent out of sin is by accepting Jesus, then this means that when babies die they go to hell. They go to hell because they die without accepting Jesus.

 

A-   They never had time to accept him,

B-   They cannot comprehend who Jesus is, or what he really did for them.

 

Hence they cannot really believe in Jesus since they are just babies. So this means they go to hell. That my friend is original sin for you.

 

It is clear Shamoun believes that it is okay for God to wipe out entire cities with kids on the fact that they are sinners, and will grow up sinners, Shamoun doesn’t seem to feel that those kids need time to grow up and repent. Shamoun seems to believe they do not deserve a chance.

 

 

He Wrote

 

Secondly, a child being conceived in original sin and dies doesn’t necessarily mean that the infant goes to hell. God can regenerate an infant even before it dies as an act of mercy and love in order to grant that babe eternal life. We see at least one example where God even filled a baby with the Holy Spirit while still in his mother’s womb:

"But the angel said to him, ‘Do not be afraid, Zechari'ah, for your prayer is heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth; for he will be great before the Lord, and he shall drink no wine nor strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. And he will turn many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God, and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Eli'jah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.’" Luke 1:13-17

Finally, the Bible says that God is a righteous judge:

"Far be it from thee to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from thee! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Genesis 18:25

"The Rock, his work is perfect; for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and right is he." Deuteronomy 32:4

"The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead." Acts 17:30-31

"But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works:" Romans 2:5-6

"This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering -- since indeed God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant rest with us to you who are afflicted, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed." 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10

We therefore have complete faith and trust in God’s perfect righteousness and absolute justice regarding how he will judge and decide the fate of all those infants that have died.

 

My Response

 

You quoting Luke doesn’t solve anything. The reason being is because this was one special event that happened. Which was the birth of John, secondly you quoting passages showing God is righteous means nothing at all neither.

 

Christians believe in the concept of original sin. You believe that everyone is born in sin and he cannot be redeemed unless he believes in the crucifixion of Christ. Now if your saying that it is possible for God to regenerate a baby before it dies then your going against your believe that everyone can only be redeemed except through Christ. That means that God could also regenerate me if I do not believe in Christ. You are going against your own theology.

 

You quote verses where God says he is just. The whole point of this article is to show you that your concept of God is not a just God. How can God blame us for something that our parents did in the garden of Eden? Why do we have to be born in sin because of them?

 

This is what you believe.

 

To your God, righteousness is to kill women and children, something you agree with:

 

Deuteronomy
Chapter 2

32-37

 

And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. 33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. 36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us

 

Thus, God was completely justified in demanding their complete annihilation in light of their willful disobedience and defiance.

 

Hence, from a biblical perspective God is even just in commanding the death of infants and children since even they will grow up to rebel and sin against their Maker

 

So to you, this is righteousness, to me it is not, so therefore you quoting those passages have no bearing what so ever since as we can see, righteousness according to you is killing women and kids.

 

The fact is those babies are all going to hell according to Christianity, the reason being is because of your doctrine of original sin.

 

 

He Wrote

 

More importantly, Zaatri must have forgotten that there is a verse in the Quran which condoned the killing of an innocent young boy:

"So they journeyed on till when they met a young boy; he slew him. Moses said, ‘What! hast thou slain an innocent person without his having slain anyone! Surely, thou hast done a hideous thing’ ... ‘And as for the youth, his parents were believers, and we feared lest on growing up he should involve them into trouble through rebellion and disbelief;’" S. 18:74, 80 Sher Ali

Moses' companion justifies the killing of a young innocent boy on the grounds that the boy may have grown up to be a rebellious unbeliever. Hence, if Zaatri has issues with the Holy Bible he needs to take issue with his own book which condones the killing of a young boy who may have, or may have not, grown up to be a disbeliever. Since Allah had a man kill a boy, which obviously included some kind of violence and pain, would Zaatri now say that his god is cruel and a bloody murderer?

 

My Response

 

To begin with, it seems Shamoun does not understand this story what so ever. So therefore I will teach it to Shamoun. I will quote the Quran and hadith on this episode:

 

018.060
YUSUFALI: Behold, Moses said to his attendant, "I will not give up until I reach the junction of the two seas or (until) I spend years and years in travel."

 

018.060
YUSUFALI: Behold, Moses said to his attendant, "I will not give up until I reach the junction of the two seas or (until) I spend years and years in travel."

 

018.061
YUSUFALI: But when they reached the Junction, they forgot (about) their Fish, which took its course through the sea (straight) as in a tunnel.

 

018.062
YUSUFALI: When they had passed on (some distance), Moses said to his attendant: "Bring us our early meal; truly we have suffered much fatigue at this (stage of) our journey."

 

018.063
YUSUFALI: He replied: "Sawest thou (what happened) when we betook ourselves to the rock? I did indeed forget (about) the Fish: none but Satan made me forget to tell (you) about it: it took its course through the sea in a marvellous way!"

 

018.064
YUSUFALI: Moses said: "That was what we were seeking after:" So they went back on their footsteps, following (the path they had come).

 

018.065
YUSUFALI: So they found one of Our servants, on whom We had bestowed Mercy from Ourselves and whom We had taught knowledge from Our own Presence.

018.066
YUSUFALI: Moses said to him: "May I follow thee, on the footing that thou teach me something of the (Higher) Truth which thou hast been taught?"

 

018.067
YUSUFALI: (The other) said: "Verily thou wilt not be able to have patience with me!"

 

018.068
YUSUFALI: "And how canst thou have patience about things about which thy understanding is not complete?"

 

YUSUFALI: Moses said: "Thou wilt find me, if Allah so will, (truly) patient: nor shall I disobey thee in aught."

 

018.070
YUSUFALI: The other said: "If then thou wouldst follow me, ask me no questions about anything until I myself speak to thee concerning it."

 

018.071
YUSUFALI: So they both proceeded: until, when they were in the boat, he scuttled it. Said Moses: "Hast thou scuttled it in order to drown those in it? Truly a strange thing hast thou done

 

018.072
YUSUFALI: He answered: "Did I not tell thee that thou canst have no patience with me?"

 

018.073
YUSUFALI: Moses said: "Rebuke me not for forgetting, nor grieve me by raising difficulties in my case."

 

018.074
YUSUFALI: Then they proceeded: until, when they met a young man, he slew him. Moses said: "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul (unheard of) thing hast thou done!"

 

018.075
YUSUFALI: He answered: "Did I not tell thee that thou canst have no patience with me?"

 

018.076
YUSUFALI: (Moses) said: "If ever I ask thee about anything after this, keep me not in thy company: then wouldst thou have received (full) excuse from my side."

 

018.077
YUSUFALI: Then they proceeded: until, when they came to the inhabitants of a town, they asked them for food, but they refused them hospitality. They found there a wall on the point of falling down, but he set it up straight. (Moses) said: "If thou hadst wished, surely thou couldst have exacted some recompense for it!"

 

018.078
YUSUFALI: He answered: "This is the parting between me and thee: now will I tell thee the interpretation of (those things) over which thou wast unable to hold patience.

 

018.079
YUSUFALI: "As for the boat, it belonged to certain men in dire want: they plied on the water: I but wished to render it unserviceable, for there was after them a certain king who seized on every boat by force.

 

018.080
YUSUFALI: "As for the youth, his parents were people of Faith, and we feared that he would grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude (to Allah and man).

 

018.081
YUSUFALI: "So we desired that their Lord would give them in exchange (a son) better in purity (of conduct) and closer in affection.

 

018.082
YUSUFALI: "As for the wall, it belonged to two youths, orphans, in the Town; there was, beneath it, a buried treasure, to which they were entitled: their father had been a righteous man: So thy Lord desired that they should attain their age of full strength and get out their treasure - a mercy (and favour) from thy Lord. I did it not of my own accord. Such is the interpretation of (those things) over which thou wast unable to hold patience."

 

So as you can see, this man whom Moses met was a very smart man, God gave this man a lot of knowledge as we see, the man killed the child on the fact that he knew this child was going to cause a lot of trouble for his parents who were good people. Therefore he killed the child in hope of them getting a better one, this was done because of his great knowledge, not just a lucky guess.

 

If you also read the commentary of a hadith http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=6179, it talks about this issue. It basically says that God knew that the kid was going to grow up and be a disbeliever and cause a lot of problems for his parents. Therefore, he let Khudr know this and had him kill the boy. It doesn’t mean that he killed the boy when he was a disbeliever. In Islam we believe that people are only responsible for their actions when they reach the age of puberty.

 

Unlike, your Bible which teaches the concept of original sin. Even those massacred children are going to hell!

 

I would to also finally add that this was just one event, this was a spiritual lesson to Moses, that he was not the smartest man and that there were smarter men that him, and this was to teach him that. This was to teach him that God grants knowledge to whomever he wills, and how much knowledge he decides to give.

 

 

He Wrote

Furthermore, this text supports the point I had made in my paper. It confirms the principle that God can justifiably kill even children on the basis of how they would turn out in the future. God who perfectly knows all things, especially future events, knows that even children grow up to be rebel sinners who defy his commands and acts of mercy.

 

My Response

 

Yes, but he doesn’t go and kill them all. This was one specific event that was done to teach Moses a lesson, to teach him that there were a lot of smart men out there, and that he wasn’t Necessarily the smartest one.

 

 

He Wrote

 

Moreover, noted Muslim historian al-Tabari stated that the so-called prophet Salih allegedly commanded certain persons of Thamud to kill the children so as to prevent one of them from growing up and killing the she-camel:

According to Hajjaj- Ibn Jurayj: When Salih told the eight evildoers that a boy would be born at whose hands they would be destroyed, they said, "What do you command us?" He said, "I command you to kill THEM" (that is their male children). SO THEY KILLED THEM except one... (The History of Al-Tabari: Prophets and Patriarchs, translated by William M. Brinner [State University of New York Press (SUNY), 1987], Volume II, p. 43; capital and underline emphasis ours)

 

My Response

 

One again, this is similar to the story of Moses. Salih did this on the fact that he knew these kids were destined to cause bad things. Also this was a specific issue, not a general issue like in the OT were God wiped out ENTIRE infants. Also the source Shamoun quotes does not help him out neither, note what it says:

 

I command you to kill THEM" (that is their male children). SO THEY KILLED THEM except one

 

So note, they even didn’t kill ALL of them, they even still let one of them live. Unlike the OT where they killed all the kids.

 

Finally, is this an authentic strong source that is in Tabari? Not everything in Tabari has to be true, therefore this doesn’t really refute anything what so ever. Secondly this is not even found in the authentic hadith of Bukhari or Muslims. So it even becomes more un-reliable to say the least.

 

Either way, whether this story is true or not, it still does not compare to the OT.

 

Another thing to note is that Salih commanded the men to kill the kids. Shamoun did not show that Allah commanded him to do so.

 

 

He Wrote

 

More importantly, Zaatri either is not aware or is trying to hide the fact that the Quran itself confirms the Divine approval for these OT wars, especially that of Saul and the Amalekites:

Hast thou not Turned thy vision to the Chiefs of the Children of Israel after (the time of) Moses? They said to a prophet (That was) among them: "Appoint for us a king, that we May fight in the cause of God." He said: "Is it not possible, if ye were commanded to fight, that that ye will not fight?" They said: "How could we refuse to fight in the cause of God, seeing that we were turned out of our homes and our families?" but when they were commanded to fight, they turned back, except a small band among them. But God Has full knowledge of those who do wrong. Their Prophet said to them: "God hath appointed Talut as king over you." They said: "How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?" He said: "God hath Chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: God Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. God careth for all, and He knoweth all things." And (further) their Prophet said to them: "A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant, with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried by angels. In this is a symbol for you if ye indeed have faith." When Talut set forth with the armies, he said: "God will test you at the stream: if any drinks of its water, He goes not with my army: Only those who taste not of it go with me: A mere sip out of the hand is excused." but they all drank of it, except a few. When they crossed the river,- He and the faithful ones with him,- they said: "This day We cannot cope with Goliath and his forces." but those who were convinced that they must meet God, said: "How oft, by God's will, Hath a small force vanquished a big one? God is with those who steadfastly persevere. When they advanced to meet Goliath and his forces, they prayed: "Our Lord! Pour out constancy on us and make our steps firm: Help us against those that reject faith." By God's will they routed them; and David slew Goliath; and God gave him power and wisdom and taught him whatever (else) He willed. And did not God Check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief: But God is full of bounty to all the worlds. S. 2:246-251 Y. Ali

The Quran recounts the story of the people of Israel asking the prophet Samuel for a king, Saul’s appointment as a king, Saul’s wars, and David killing Goliath (cf. 1 Samuel 8-17). What is interesting about all this is that even though the Quranic narration presupposes the biblical account of God’s commission to wipe out the Amalekites it nowhere condemns this Divine decree. It does not say that Saul killing women and children was an evil thing or that the Israelites tampered with the story since this isn’t how it happened; nor does it deny that these things did happen. Its very mention in the Quran without any qualification presupposes that the author of the Quran had absolutely no problem with these wars since he believed that God sanctioned them. So why does Zaatri go against the teachings of his own book (as false as it is) and attack the Bible for something with which the Quran implicitly attests?

 

My Response

 

I find it funny that Shamoun has to distort what the Quran really says. Let us quote the entire passages again:

 

Hast thou not Turned thy vision to the Chiefs of the Children of Israel after (the time of) Moses? They said to a prophet (That was) among them: "Appoint for us a king, that we May fight in the cause of God." He said: "Is it not possible, if ye were commanded to fight, that that ye will not fight?" They said: "How could we refuse to fight in the cause of God, seeing that we were turned out of our homes and our families?" but when they were commanded to fight, they turned back, except a small band among them. But God Has full knowledge of those who do wrong. Their Prophet said to them: "God hath appointed Talut as king over you." They said: "How can he exercise authority over us when we are better fitted than he to exercise authority, and he is not even gifted, with wealth in abundance?" He said: "God hath Chosen him above you, and hath gifted him abundantly with knowledge and bodily prowess: God Granteth His authority to whom He pleaseth. God careth for all, and He knoweth all things." And (further) their Prophet said to them: "A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant, with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried by angels. In this is a symbol for you if ye indeed have faith." When Talut set forth with the armies, he said: "God will test you at the stream: if any drinks of its water, He goes not with my army: Only those who taste not of it go with me: A mere sip out of the hand is excused." but they all drank of it, except a few. When they crossed the river,- He and the faithful ones with him,- they said: "This day We cannot cope with Goliath and his forces." but those who were convinced that they must meet God, said: "How oft, by God's will, Hath a small force vanquished a big one? God is with those who steadfastly persevere. When they advanced to meet Goliath and his forces, they prayed: "Our Lord! Pour out constancy on us and make our steps firm: Help us against those that reject faith." By God's will they routed them; and David slew Goliath; and God gave him power and wisdom and taught him whatever (else) He willed. And did not God Check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief: But God is full of bounty to all the worlds. S. 2:246-251 Y. Ali

Where in any of that does it mentioned women and children being slaughtered? It does not say anything about women and children being killed. Shamoun committed a grave error in reading those passages, Shamoun believes just because the Quran mentions David, Goliath, Saul and the people of Samuel, and a battle then this means the Quran is identically saying the same story the Bible is. The Quran does not mention any women and kids being killed, the fact it does not is an indication that those events never happened.

 

Shamoun stated:

 

 So why does Zaatri go against the teachings of his own book (as false as it is) and attack the Bible for something with which the Quran implicitly attests?

Show me where these passages implicitly state that women and children were killed. This is a distortion on your part. The Quran does not attest that women and children were killed. Case closed.

 

 

He Wrote

 

Zaatri also tries to argue that in Islam those babies that are killed will go to heaven, which is either evidence of his severe ignorance of the Quran or another lie aimed at deceiving the readers. In the first place, there is not a single verse in the Quran which says all infants that die go to Paradise, so we challenge Zaatri to produce a verse to the contrary.

Furthermore according to the so-called sound ahadith even Muhammad himself didn’t know whether the children of believers or unbelievers would go to hell or not:

‘A’isha, the mother of the believers, said that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was called to lead the funeral prayer of a child of the Ansar. I said: Allah’s Messenger, there is happiness for this child who is a bird from the birds of Paradise for it committed no sin nor has he reached the age when one can commit sin. He said: 'A'isha, per adventure, IT MAY BE OTHERWISE, because God created for Paradise those who are fit for it WHILE THEY WERE YET IN THEIR FATHER’S LOINS and created for Hell those who are to go to Hell. He created them for Hell WHILE THEY WERE YET IN THEIR FATHER'S LOINS. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6436)

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: No babe is born but upon Fitra. It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist. A person said: Allah’s Messenger, what is your opinion if they were to die before that (before reaching the age of adolescence when they can distinguish between right and wrong)? He said: It is Allah alone Who knows what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426>)

Abu Huraira reported from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) many ahadith and one amongst them is that he is reported to have said: An infant is born according to his (true) nature. It is his parents who make him a Jew, a Christian, just as a she-camel gives birth to its young ones. Do you find any deficiency in their limbs? You cut their ears (i. e. after birth). They (the Companions of the Holy Prophet) said: What is your opinion about him who dies in infancy? Thereupon Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: It is Allah alone Who knows best what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6428)

Abu Huraira reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) was asked about the children of the polytheists who die young. Thereupon Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: It is Allah Who knows what they would be doing. (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6432)

 

My Response

 

None of the hadith you brought up refute a single point I said. My point still stands.

 

You need to read the commentary of the hadith http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=1&Rec=6179 and see that all it basically means is that Allah knows what these children would have done if he let them grow up. Even if God knew if He let them grow up to become disbelievers but they die before they reach puberty, that does not mean God will consider them disbelievers and put them in hell. This is the opinion of the majority of scholars. There is much evidence to also indicate that disbelieving children would be servants in paradise.

 

 

However so, unlike your belief, your belief tells you that babies are going to hell because of original sin. Case closed.

 

 

He Wrote

 

Zaatri also manages to contradict himself in the process since he writes:

When Allah destroys a place with a natural disaster the deaths of the inhabitants is almost instant and feeling not much pain. Secondly, yes some women and kids are among the dead, however so in Islam babies automatically go to heaven! So hence when Allah destroys a town, and babies are killed, the babies go straight to heaven which is much better than this world, hence the babies have a free ride you could say. They don’t have to grow up and do all things us believers have to do to enter heaven, the baby gets to heaven just on the fact that he is a child. So hence there is no wrong in that, unlike the Bible where babies are killed and sent to hell, hence they never really had a chance to go to heaven.

But then in the very next paragraph he says:

Secondly, Allah did not destroy a town or city until there was no hope in saving them, and the ones who did repent to Allah were warned to leave the city to avoid being killed. So the ones who did get killed were the ones who simply did not heed Allah’s warning. Allah then punished the ones who did not believe, however so this still cannot even be slightly compared to the brutal ness of the OT. Allah didn’t send armies of men killing women and children; he just sent a natural disaster.

Did Allah kill those who didn’t heed the warning or did he also kill infants who had no way to heed the warning as well? If he did kill the infants then Zaatri lies when he says that Allah punished those who did not believe since he even killed infants who had no way of possibly believing!

 

My Response

 

There was no contradiction on my part, here is what I said again:

 

 

When Allah destroys a place with a natural disaster the deaths of the inhabitants is almost instant and feeling not much pain. Secondly, yes some women and kids are among the dead, however so in Islam babies automatically go to heaven! So hence when Allah destroys a town, and babies are killed, the babies go straight to heaven ,which is much better than this world. Hence the babies have a free ride you could say. They don’t have to grow up and do all things us believers have to do to enter heaven. The baby gets to heaven just on the fact that he is a child. So hence there is no wrong in that, unlike the Bible where babies are killed and sent to hell, hence they never really had a chance to go to heaven.

 

Secondly, Allah did not destroy a town or city until there was no hope in saving them, and the ones who did repent to Allah were warned to leave the city to avoid being killed. So the ones who did get killed were the ones who simply did not heed Allah’s warning. Allah then punished the ones who did not believe, however so this still cannot even be slightly compared to the brutal ness of the OT. Allah didn’t send armies of men killing women and children; he just sent a natural disaster. 

 

What I basically mean is that when Allah destroyed a town, he warned all the inhabitants, the inhabitants who choose to believe were spared and were told to flee. The ones who did not choose to believe were destroyed, this naturally includes their children because their children belong to them and they obviously would not allow their kids to leave now would they. So maybe next time you should try to comprehend what I say. However so, the children of the unbelievers who were killed would be granted to heaven, I made that point clear; hence no injustice has been done against them.

 

 

He Wrote

 

Finally, Zaatri is really confused about what he believes, or at least very inconsistent. He attacks the OT on the basis that it allows the killing of women and children, but has no problem with Allah also killing children since he believes they will end up going to paradise anyway. Zaatri obviously doesn't realize just how confused he sounds since his argument basically implies that it is not the killing of children that is wrong, it is sending them to hell which is evil. In other words, Zaatri is essentially arguing (without having any clue that this is what he is indeed saying otherwise he wouldn't be contradicting himself so often) that killing children is okay provided that they end up going to paradise afterwards!

 

My Response

 

It seems all Shamoun can do is attack straw man. The fact he does not quote me neither will just miss-lead his readers even further than he has already done so. Here is what I said in my previous article:

 

 

 

First off, to compare natural disasters to massacres by soldiers is illogical to say the least. Allah destroyed complete towns and places by natural disasters, not sending in full grown men with swords and killing kids in front of their mothers, or killing mother in front of their kids. Can anyone imagine that? Can anyone imagine the pain the people felt? Mentally and physically.

 

 AND

When Allah destroys a place with a natural disaster the deaths of the inhabitants is almost instant and feeling not much pain. Secondly, yes some women and kids are among the dead, however so in Islam babies automatically go to heaven! So hence when Allah destroys a town, and babies are killed, the babies go straight to heaven which is much better than this world, hence the babies have a free ride you could say.

 

 

 

Now Shamoun will most likely argue that I am saying the same thing he is, that God destroyed people after warning them and finally destroyed them when they did not listen and when there was no hope. However so we are not saying the same thing, here are the differences:

 

1- In the Bible God massacred the people with armies, people were stabbed, mothers were killed in front of their sons by soldiers, children were killed in front of their mothers by soldiers. There was defiantly a lot of physical pain endured by the Canaanites. Allah simply destroyed towns and people by natural disasters, they felt no pain.

 

2- The babies killed by God in the OT go straight to hell, the babies killed in the towns that Allah took out go straight to heaven. So hence babies in Christianity are not given any chance at all. Babies in Islam get a free ride into heaven.

 

So there are major differences between the punishments handed down.

 

 

So anyone who read my previous article will see that my basic argument is that Shamoun supported the MASSACRES of women and children. Had the God of the Bible been a bit more merciful and killed them in some other less sickening way I would have no argument. The fact is my argument is the way in which God killed those kids, and the fact that those kids will also end up in hell.

 

The fact that I even predicted Shamoun would bring this argument up in my previous rebuttal just shows how weak his response is, and how he has not understood a single word I have said. I even addressed these points he is raising in my previous rebuttal as everyone just saw.

As for your cheap shot in which you stated:

 

 

 

Zaatri is essentially arguing (without having any clue that this is what he is indeed saying otherwise he wouldn't be contradicting himself so often)

 

I can confidently say that the only confused one here is you, since you have not refuted a single thing I have said, nor have you understood any of what I said. You have just mis-represented me and my position and arguments and attacked me from there. The fact that I already answered your objections in the first rebuttal shows what a bad job you really are doing.

 

 

He Wrote

 

In conclusion, the readers should be able to see that Zaatri is perhaps the worst of Osama’s writers and the least qualified to critique Christianity or defend Islam. His material is so bad that he even makes Osama’s articles look good!

 

My Response

 

As we see, I am too much for you, since you couldn’t refute a single argument, nor could you answer anything. My arguments still stand; your pathetic response is destroyed.

 

Praise Allah the true God!

 

 

 

 

 

Rebuttals, and exposing the lies of the Answering Islam team section.

Rebuttals to Sam Shamoun's Articles section.

Sami Zaatari's Rebuttals section.


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