Author Topic: The brain in a vat problem!  (Read 23711 times)

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Offline confusedseeker

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The brain in a vat problem!
« on: February 24, 2013, 11:30:39 AM »
Hi everyone, how are all of you? I am a Muslim, but a few weeks ago I read the brain in a vat argument which for some reason placed many doubts on my mind. The brain in a vat story states that electrochemical stimulation from electrodes that mimicks bodily inputs could pass messages to your brain creating an alternate fake reality for you.

How do we know that we exist in the real natural world? Is it even possible for electrodes to create such electrochemical impulses that provide the brain with sensory & proprioceptive feedback? Thanks for your responses. I appreciate all clarifications.

Offline adnaanshaikh195

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Re: The brain in a vat problem!
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2013, 01:27:21 PM »
WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU GULLIBLE FOOLS?

The other day, a guy wrote: OSAMA ABDALLAH WATCH THIS, SCIENTISTS HAVE FOUND OUT THAT MAYBE OUR LIFE IS JUST A ILLUSION!!

Seriously? Do you believe everything?

Offline confusedseeker

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Re: The brain in a vat problem!
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2013, 02:29:43 PM »
I don't know what others were talking about, but is there anyway to disprove this hypothesis?

Offline Mujahid Saifullah

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Re: The brain in a vat problem!
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2013, 07:04:11 PM »
Quote from: confusedseeker
is there anyway to disprove this hypothesis?
The burden of proof is not on us, brother. Watch the film 'The Matrix', as this is what you're basically saying. It is a cool idea to speculate with, but we do not exist in an alternate reality. Each individual has their own consciousness, which exists inside the vessel that is our flesh. Your idea would suggest that we are all dreaming, and what of our actual flesh? Is it being used as a power source be evil beings?

As I said, one can theorize on such things, but to claim that something is so with absence of any empirical evidence is absurd.

Offline confusedseeker

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Re: The brain in a vat problem!
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2013, 04:37:06 AM »
Quote from: confusedseeker
is there anyway to disprove this hypothesis?
The burden of proof is not on us, brother. Watch the film 'The Matrix', as this is what you're basically saying. It is a cool idea to speculate with, but we do not exist in an alternate reality. Each individual has their own consciousness, which exists inside the vessel that is our flesh. Your idea would suggest that we are all dreaming, and what of our actual flesh? Is it being used as a power source be evil beings?

As I said, one can theorize on such things, but to claim that something is so with absence of any empirical evidence is absurd.

@ Mujahid Saifullah

You are correct brother. However, this idea has been bothering me for quite some time & a decent refutation would put my mind at ease. All other doubts I ever had were put to rest by Islamic teachings, I am sure there has to be some way to refute this idea as well.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 10:39:35 AM by confusedseeker »

Offline confusedseeker

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Re: The brain in a vat problem!
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2013, 06:01:10 AM »
So is there a logical refutation of this scenario?

Offline confusedseeker

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Re: The brain in a vat problem!
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2013, 02:13:29 PM »
I found an interesting link dealing with this issue:

http://summerschool2011.esmcs.eu/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Thompson_Philosophical_Topics.pdf

Anyone else has some interesting points to add?

Offline confusedseeker

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Re: The brain in a vat problem!
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2013, 01:40:44 AM »
Does anyone else have any interesting information to add?

Offline Mujahid Saifullah

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Re: The brain in a vat problem!
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2013, 03:31:05 AM »
Do you wish to discuss the concept, or are looking for a quick answer? Because the later has been done.

Offline confusedseeker

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Re: The brain in a vat problem!
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2013, 02:07:32 AM »
Do you wish to discuss the concept, or are looking for a quick answer? Because the later has been done.

Well that answer was the one I found for myself. It's a very nice read no doubt, but if we were to discuss the concept, do you think it would ever be possible for humans to be able to stimulate nerves to the point of providing proprioceptive & kinesthetic feedback? I guess, if that isn't possible unless real living tissue is used for providing the brain with sensory inputs then the entire concept of the brain in a vat goes down the drain.

Offline Mujahid Saifullah

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Re: The brain in a vat problem!
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2013, 06:47:28 AM »
Quote from: confusedseeker
do you think it would ever be possible for humans to be able to stimulate nerves to the point of providing proprioceptive & kinesthetic feedback?
Yes. The science already exists, or at least the foundations of. It will be a long time before we see it actualized though.

Offline There is only one God

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Re: The brain in a vat problem!
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2013, 09:22:10 AM »
ah this of course, is a very interesting topic most have misunderstood. I recommend reading The real essence of matter by HarunYahya. Yes, we do not sense, you may say: REAL matter. The real matter lies with Allah. Don't worry, it makes sense real nicely here:
http://harunyahya.com/en/works/30035/adnan-oktar-tellsthe-real-essence

Offline confusedseeker

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Re: The brain in a vat problem!
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2013, 02:06:08 PM »
Quote from: confusedseeker
do you think it would ever be possible for humans to be able to stimulate nerves to the point of providing proprioceptive & kinesthetic feedback?
Yes. The science already exists, or at least the foundations of. It will be a long time before we see it actualized though.

I don't understand, in what sense would that be possible? Do you mean that we could use electrodes to delude the brain in to believing its hand lies in some place it isn't? The various sensory neurons connected to nerves such as pressure sensitive mechanoreceptors couldn't possibly be stimulated by electrodes. Basically, the nervous system & the brain itself seem to require an environment that mimics the human body to function. I might be wrong but I fail to see how provisions for such an environment could be made artificially.

Or are you referring to prosthetic devices some of which are being designed to detect variables like temperature, but they aren't able to communicate with the brain in the manner the arm or leg composed of living tissue does as far as I know that is.

Offline Mujahid Saifullah

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Re: The brain in a vat problem!
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2013, 03:33:40 AM »
It seems as though your crisis of religion has been solved. :-*

How can it be achieved? Psychotropic drugs, virtual reality, mind control, or whatever sci-fi method you like.

They can transplant arms from a cadaver and have them fully functional.

There are simple tricks you can do to people to make them think something is occurring when it is not. Like rubbing their hand, while they are looking at a fake hand being rubbed, then stab the fake hand type stuff. There's augmented reality. You can mess with a person's equilibrium, sensory perception, whatever.

I'm still not sure of what you want here, it seems like you are against believing in this, yet say it makes you question your faith?

Are you trolling?

Oh, also, people who are quadriplegic and can only move their head, or in some cases only eyes, well they have been testing technology for a long time with good results of people being able to control their environment with such limitations. The next logical step would be to have they, themselves believe it was real. This is where the drugs come into it.

Offline There is only one God

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Re: The brain in a vat problem!
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2013, 03:35:27 AM »
yes Mujahid, he's trolling. Of course our matter is an illusion. Only materialist Atheists believe in the contrary.

 

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