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laloumen:

--- Quote from: QuranSearchCom on September 19, 2012, 03:52:07 PM ---Peace be upon you Jim,

Do you honestly believe that putting someone like Jesus Christ on the cross for 3 hours only, - a person who was able to fast for 40 days without eating anything, - and expect him to die?

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

--- End quote ---

First, you need to get your facts straight!  Jesus was not only three hours on the cross.  Mark wrote:

And it was the third hour when they crucified him.
(Mark 15:25)

And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice,
"Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God,
my God, why have you forsaken me?'
(Mark 15:34)

That is six hours.  And that was on top of the scourging and other abuse which obviously caused Him to lose a tremendous amount of blood.

Isaiah wrote of Him (about 700 years earlier) that

his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance,
and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—
(Isaiah 52:14)

The type of beating to which Jesus was subjected was so severe that at times people would not even live through it to be crucified.  But Jesus did survive, as we read, and did go on to be crucified, although he collapsed while carrying the cross from the beating and the loss of blood. 

You haven't apparently bothered to do any independent thinking on this - I suppose you're just parroting what others have said without really thinking.  Be that as it may, I still need to answer your question/objection. 

The simple fact is that the Lord Jesus **willingly** laid down His life --

No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord.
I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.
This charge I have received from my Father.
(John 10:18)

When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished,"
and he bowed his head and **gave up his spirit**.
(John 19:30)

Why should He suffer beyond what was necessary to complete the work set out for Him to accomplish?  For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.  But those who do not believe are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

He was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
(Isaiah 53:5)

He was not pierced for His own transgressions, as He had committed none.  He was not crushed for His own iniquities, as He had none.  He was crushed for the transgressions of others, as a Substitute - and when the penalty for those transgressions had been fully borne, He cried "it is finished" and gave up His Spirit.  Should he suffer needlessly?  So when His work was accomplished, He allowed Himself to die.


--- Quote from: QuranSearchCom on September 19, 2012, 03:52:07 PM ---Peace be upon you Jim,

And again, the NT is clear that Christ was ALIVE in the tomb.  Listen to the debate, and please respond to Dr. Zakir Naik's points, directly.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

--- End quote ---

First, the NT is clear that He died and was dead when He was laid in the tomb.  If you think that those Roman soldiers couldn't tell when a person was dead, you're sadly mistaken.  How many deaths had they witnessed do you suppose?  Hundreds?  Thousands?  They were perfectly capable of telling when a man was dead, as we read:

But when they came to Jesus and saw that **he was already dead**,
they did not break his legs. But one of the soldiers pierced his side
with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water.
(John 19:33-34)

The piercing of the side of Christ obviously penetrated to the heart and the fact that water and blood came out is clear proof that he was already dead. 

But, in saying that the NT is clear that Christ was ALIVE in the tomb is patently ridiculous.  I suppose you will bring up Jonah at this point?  I will just be blunt - Dr. Naik's arguments are genuinely dumb.  But, if you're so keen on trying to prove your point, feel free to post what you think is the best of his arguments and we can discuss it.


In Christ,
Jim

laloumen:

--- Quote from: m2ariman on September 20, 2012, 02:22:11 PM ---
"But, to make things very simple, forgiveness is not possible in Islam - God cannot be merciful to you without being unjust.  How can God forgive you for your sin without ignoring your guilt?  And, if God ignores your guilt, God is unjust.  You need a Savior!  You need to turn from your sin to the Lord, because in Him there is forgiveness, through His death on the cross on your behalf.  In this way, God is both merciful and just.  "

"God cannot be merciful without being unjust." Says who? Are you God?

The fact that you are alive even after making that statement is the whole reason why God is merciful.


--- End quote ---

The problem is that in order for Allah to remain perfectly just and righteous, sin must be punished. If all men are sinful and have committed sin, and Allah is infinite and perfect in his attributes, there can be no mercy. For mercy then would function as a negation of his justice. This leads to the inevitable conclusion that in order for Allah to be both merciful (in the Quranic sense of ignoring the sins of some) and just, he must be an arbitrary and changing being - which is to say, that God, in the Islamic conception of God, does not and cannot exist.

Christianity does not have this problem.

For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had
passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time,
so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
(Romans 3:22-26)

Here is no arbitrary God!  Here is a God who is righteous and merciful.  He is **both** JUST and the ONE WHO JUSTIFIES those who place their trust in Christ. 

Here is reason to trust in Christ!!

Think about it.

In Christ,
Jim

Final Overture:
Wow, really? Let's see:
Psalms 145:8 The LORD is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.
2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just
And
Isaiah 6:6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.”

laloumen:

--- Quote from: Final Overture on September 22, 2012, 04:27:44 AM ---Wow, really? Let's see:
Psalms 145:8 The LORD is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.
2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just
And
Isaiah 6:6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for".

--- End quote ---

It's not clear what your point is.  The first two verses are clear and simple but the latter verse clearly shows the need of an atonement. 

You know that he [Jesus Christ] appeared in order
to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
(1 John 3:5)

The types and foreshadowings of the OT pointed to, looked forward to, the work of Christ.  Those things did not have efficacy in and of themselves but only by virtue of their connection with Christ's sacrifice. 

Then one of the seraphim flew to me,
having in his hand a burning coal that he
had taken with tongs from the altar.
And he touched my mouth and said:
"Behold, this has touched your lips;
your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for."
(Isaiah 6:6-7)

This does not mean, that the fire from the altar had any physical effect to purify him from sin, but that it was emblematic of such a purifying; and probably, also, the fact that it was taken from the altar of sacrifice, was to him an indication that he was pardoned through the “atonement,” or expiation there made. The Jews expected pardon in no other mode than by sacrifice; and the offering on their altar pointed to the great sacrifice which was to be made on the cross for the sins of human beings. There is here a beautiful union of the truths respecting sacrifice. The great doctrine is presented that it is only by sacrifice that sin can be pardoned; and the Messiah, the sacrifice himself, is exhibited as issuing the commission to Isaiah to go and declare his message to people.

And, as a matter of interest to Muslims, John writes that what Isaiah saw was the preincarnate Christ:

Isaiah said these things because he saw his [Christ's] glory and spoke of him.
(John 12:41)

where Isaiah wrote:

And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips,
and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have
seen the King, the LORD of hosts!"
(Isaiah 6:5 ESV)

Thus, here is a declaration of the Deity of Christ - Isaiah calls him Jehovah and John says that Isaiah saw Christ's glory and spoke of HIM.  Thus, the efficacy of the burning coal is in the certain foreknowledge of Christ's own work by Him.

This is all straightforward.  However, it merely points out the utter lack of an atonement in Islam.  And, without an atonement, Allah cannot be righteous under Islam and forgive sins.  In order to be merciful, Allah must simply **ignore** the guilt of the guilty, and this makes Allah unrighteous in being merciful.  Thus, the Islamic view of God is false.

In Christ,
Jim

Final Overture:

--- Quote from: laloumen on September 22, 2012, 09:29:52 AM ---
--- Quote from: Final Overture on September 22, 2012, 04:27:44 AM ---Wow, really? Let's see:
Psalms 145:8 The LORD is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.
2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just
And
Isaiah 6:6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for".

--- End quote ---

It's not clear what your point is.  The first two verses are clear and simple but the latter verse clearly shows the need of an atonement. 

You know that he [Jesus Christ] appeared in order
to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
(1 John 3:5)

The types and foreshadowings of the OT pointed to, looked forward to, the work of Christ.  Those things did not have efficacy in and of themselves but only by virtue of their connection with Christ's sacrifice. 

Then one of the seraphim flew to me,
having in his hand a burning coal that he
had taken with tongs from the altar.
And he touched my mouth and said:
"Behold, this has touched your lips;
your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for."
(Isaiah 6:6-7)

This does not mean, that the fire from the altar had any physical effect to purify him from sin, but that it was emblematic of such a purifying; and probably, also, the fact that it was taken from the altar of sacrifice, was to him an indication that he was pardoned through the “atonement,” or expiation there made. The Jews expected pardon in no other mode than by sacrifice; and the offering on their altar pointed to the great sacrifice which was to be made on the cross for the sins of human beings. There is here a beautiful union of the truths respecting sacrifice. The great doctrine is presented that it is only by sacrifice that sin can be pardoned; and the Messiah, the sacrifice himself, is exhibited as issuing the commission to Isaiah to go and declare his message to people.

And, as a matter of interest to Muslims, John writes that what Isaiah saw was the preincarnate Christ:

Isaiah said these things because he saw his [Christ's] glory and spoke of him.
(John 12:41)

where Isaiah wrote:

And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips,
and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have
seen the King, the LORD of hosts!"
(Isaiah 6:5 ESV)

Thus, here is a declaration of the Deity of Christ - Isaiah calls him Jehovah and John says that Isaiah saw Christ's glory and spoke of HIM.  Thus, the efficacy of the burning coal is in the certain foreknowledge of Christ's own work by Him.

This is all straightforward.  However, it merely points out the utter lack of an atonement in Islam.  And, without an atonement, Allah cannot be righteous under Islam and forgive sins.  In order to be merciful, Allah must simply **ignore** the guilt of the guilty, and this makes Allah unrighteous in being merciful.  Thus, the Islamic view of God is false.

In Christ,
Jim

--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---It's not clear what your point is.
--- End quote ---
Some sins were forgiven, even though there was no savior.

--- Quote ---You know that he [Jesus Christ] appeared in order
to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
(1 John 3:5)
--- End quote ---
Why did he break the Sabbath day, then?



--- Quote ---And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips,
and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have
seen the King, the LORD of hosts!"
(Isaiah 6:5 ESV)

Thus, here is a declaration of the Deity of Christ - Isaiah calls him Jehovah and John says that Isaiah saw Christ's glory and spoke of HIM.  Thus, the efficacy of the burning coal is in the certain foreknowledge of Christ's own work by Him.
--- End quote ---

Hm, really? I don't find Jesus there. Look closely: "for my eyes have
seen the King, the LORD of hosts!"
And the very first verse: In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple.
John lived at the time of King Uzziah?

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