Author Topic: Gender inequality  (Read 23407 times)

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Offline The Canadian Atheist

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Gender inequality
« on: September 25, 2013, 03:11:24 PM »
"All civil (with dictionary-approved words, no matter what they are) opposing views to Islam, or to any other religion, are welcomed here.  We are ready to debate and prove that Islam is the Divine Truth.  Therefore, feel free to speak your mind and to share your views and concerns.  There is not a single civil argument that you can bring that would cause you to be banned, or for your post to be deleted or modified.  This, I promise you, insha'Allah (if Allah Almighty is Willing).  Thank you, and welcome!"

Such confidence, I have not seen in a long, long time.

In no way can you justify beating up a woman, ever:


Quran 4:34
"Men are in charge of women by what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in absence what Allah would have them guard. But those from whom you fear arrogance - advise them; forsake them in bed; and strike them. But if they obey you, seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand."

Let's examine this in detail shall we?

"Men are in charge of women"
Patriarchy, incompatible with the 21st century.

"Righteous women are devoutly obedient"
Women need to be obedient to men, they can't be independent, they must take orders from the man. Devoutly obedient means, be obedient to them like you're obedient to God.

"But those from whom you fear arrogance..."
'Those' is obviously referring to any women, not just wives, as seen in context (previously talked about righteous women)

"But those from whom you fear arrogance - advise them; forsake them in bed; and strike them. But if they obey you, seek no means against them."
Meaning: If your wife doesn't obey you, talk to her, ignore her, then beat her up until she obeys.

"Indeed, Allah is ever exalted and Grand"
Self explanatory.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2013, 10:20:51 PM by The Canadian Atheist »

Offline abdullah

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Re: Beat your wife up
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2013, 09:44:36 PM »
Assalamualykum
As an atheist you have no say about what is right and what is wrong, because you base your morals off of societal standards which are constantly fluctuating. Furthermore, according to your worldview you and everybody else are just a bunch of atoms with no greater purpose in life, so nothing really matters.

Men are the guardians of women, because God has given advantage to some people over another, and because they spend from their wealth. Consequently, pious women are obedient [to their husbands] and keep their secrets for God also keeps secrets. And as for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them [first] and [next] refuse to share their beds and [even then if they do not listen] beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Indeed, God is Exalted and Mighty.
The above is one of the verses of the Qur
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 09:48:27 PM by abdullah »

Offline Ishfaq

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Re: Beat your wife up
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2013, 09:57:04 PM »
1. Men are really in charge of women as the latter have lesser brain as is approved of by common sense and science. The brain of a woman is 100g lesser in weight than that of a man.
2.   Stoppage of extramarital sex is also impossible to achieve in this 21st century. That does not make sex valid or legal.
3. 'Those' in the verse means your wives. What the prophet said about a verse is the real meaning. The quran says: "we have sent down the quran to you and made you responsible to explain it.' so, whatever the prophet explains to us regarding the quran is the actual meaning of the quran.
4. Those whom you fear transgression refers to those women( wives) who are inclined to adultery. It does not   refer to other women or cases.
5. Beating is the last resort, and it should be light. (a) the prophet forbade that women or animals be beaten on the face. (b) someone reported to the prophet that some companions beat their wives. Thereupon he said: they are not the best among you. (c) the prophet once when his wife (aisha) annoyed him said that i ll beat you with this miswak(twig).
    All these hadiths indicate that the beating refered to above is a light beating, almost equal to nought. This is there to make the wife realise her misdoing. And beating is not liked in Islam, but under unavoidable circumstances. What would you do if your wife does adultery or is about to commit it. How would you let her know that you are annoyed. These are the methods cited for humanking, the easiest methods.
6.  A headless family cannot remain successful, just as headless nations dont prosper. And history is testimony that the best leaders are all men, due to their intellectual superiority and instinct. This does not mean women are nothing. They have their own rights over men. Men have 75 per cent obligations to mothers and only 25 to fathers in islam. You cannot do coitus interruptus without the consent of the woman. A girl cannot carried against her consent. These are womens rights in Islam.   


Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Beat your wife up
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2013, 08:57:25 AM »
And here's the Canadian again . He appears every once in while to put something he thinks is bad for Islam while truth is that he's only lacking knowledge of it or seeing it from one side which he favors . After that , he doesn't discuss at all , he just disappears for reasons Allah knows best of .
Now let's look .
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"All civil (with dictionary-approved words, no matter what they are) opposing views to Islam, or to any other religion, are welcomed here.  We are ready to debate and prove that Islam is the Divine Truth.  Therefore, feel free to speak your mind and to share your views and concerns.  There is not a single civil argument that you can bring that would cause you to be banned, or for your post to be deleted or modified.  This, I promise you, insha'Allah (if Allah Almighty is Willing).  Thank you, and welcome!"
I actually oppose some of this . For example , if someone says that maybe we don't exist but rather we think we exist then I'd spare people the headache and delete it ! And , I'd delete filth spammed against Islam because in no way would I allow indecency . Speaking your mind is something , lacking decency is another .

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In no way can you justify beating up a woman, ever:
Before we start I'd like to say that I'm beginning to get tired of hearing "Women this , women that" . Sure , sure . Go ahead and cut whatever you like of my words without the rest . You do it with Quran so why wouldn't you with a human ? The reason I'm so tired of it is that it became a cheap way to attack Islam . Because I can guarantee that the same individuals who rant about women's rights of absolute equality are the first to break their rule . Just take a quick glance at the media . Women became nothing more than sexual objects . And don't let me get started with the statics of porn . Another thing is , if men and women are absolutely equal in every single field as you try to force then why do they need someone to stand up for them ? How was it possible for anyone to oppress women ? A little thinking can spare us a lot of headache really . Funny thing is , there are women complaining about absolute equality ! More funny is that due to this line of thinking , organizations were founded for men rights !!

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Let's examine this in detail shall we?
Yes , time to make you disappear again until you find another broken idea from an Islamophobic site and return with it .

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"Men are in charge of women"
Patriarchy, incompatible with the 21st century.
Did you ask yourself even once : Maybe not everything we believe and want to force the world to believe is actually right ? Men are in charge of women . Men in general are more capable of handling living matters and expenses . And please don't say "There are women like that" because I said "Generally" . And for simple evidence , take a look at the majority of judges and leaders of nations . How many women are there ? And if you looked at it fairly , being in charge of someone doesn't just mean ordering them around . When I'm in charge of an orphan , it means I have to look after him and take care , so how did this meaning not come to you ? So maybe , JUST MAYBE , if you stop invading any land that doesn't approve of your way of life which your own people are complaining about , you'd start seeing what we mean .

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"Righteous women are devoutly obedient"
Women need to be obedient to men, they can't be independent, they must take orders from the man. Devoutly obedient means, be obedient to them like you're obedient to God.
Here we go again with the Mexican drama . Honestly , this matter is very wide and needs a lot of time to cover entirely . But in short , man is indeed in charge of his wife and daughters . That in no way means banning them from doing what they want as long as it isn't forbidden or harmful to them and others . If you thin the word "In charge" is insulting then you should object about a man being in charge of another because you want absolute equality ! So before you get eaten away by ego and arrogance , read a small portion about Islam from its own people . I know , you know , and everybody know that no matter how you claim you read Quran and understand Islam , your lack of knowledge will be proven in one conversation . Just an advice .

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"But those from whom you fear arrogance..."
'Those' is obviously referring to any women, not just wives, as seen in context (previously talked about righteous women)
Nope , it means the ones man is in charge of , like the wife and sister and daughters . Except that - naturally - the sisters and daughters are not included in forsaking bed .

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"But those from whom you fear arrogance - advise them; forsake them in bed; and strike them. But if they obey you, seek no means against them."
Meaning: If your wife doesn't obey you, talk to her, ignore her, then beat her up until she obeys.
Again with explaining according to your tiny amount of knowledge . First of all , Hadith says - And I know that you don't know other than slanders - that beating should be a last resort and it must NEVER be with strength and one must never hit the face . And let's stop for a second . What is meant by arrogance ? It means not doing the duties of wife - And before you start yelling , husbands have duties of course - or doing something forbidden and such . So , someone's wife doesn't look after the kids at all , what do you suppose in case she doesn't listen after advising and forsaking in bed ?

So , as I said , read a little with fairness .
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 09:02:59 AM by Black Muslim »

Offline The Canadian Atheist

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Re: Beat your wife up
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2013, 12:41:19 PM »
Assalamualykum
As an atheist you have no say about what is right and what is wrong, because you base your morals off of societal standards which are constantly fluctuating. Furthermore, according to your worldview you and everybody else are just a bunch of atoms with no greater purpose in life, so nothing really matters.

Walykum Assalam (Did you think I would not know how to respond to that?)

Off topic Ad Hominem?

Morality is subjective. If you're to base it off a 1600 year old book that commands death to apostates, infidels, unbelievers, or wife/child beating, then the real issue lies with you. You're mistaking atheism with solipsism.

1. Men are really in charge of women as the latter have lesser brain as is approved of by common sense and science. The brain of a woman is 100g lesser in weight than that of a man.
Weight of the brain does not imply anything. Elephants have larger brains than humans, does that make them smarter than us?
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5. Beating is the last resort, and it should be light. (a) the prophet forbade that women or animals be beaten on the face. (b) someone reported to the prophet that some companions beat their wives. Thereupon he said: they are not the best among you. (c) the prophet once when his wife (aisha) annoyed him said that i ll beat you with this miswak(twig).
What verse does it say this? Or does this belong to the book of the stuff they made up as they went along because the Qur'an was getting outdated (ie. hadith)
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And history is testimony that the best leaders are all men, due to their intellectual superiority and instinct.
Are you forgetting Joan of Arc? Hitler had intellectual superiority and instinct, that doesn't mean he should be in charge of the world...

And here's the Canadian again . He appears every once in while to put something he thinks is bad for Islam while truth is that he's only lacking knowledge of it or seeing it from one side which he favors . After that , he doesn't discuss at all , he just disappears for reasons Allah knows best of .
Ad Hominem attacks keep on coming. That must mean your points are weak.

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the same individuals who rant about women's rights of absolute equality are the first to break their rule
Hmm, wasn't Mohammed supposedly a speaker on women's rights?

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if you stop invading any land that doesn't approve of your way of life which your own people are complaining about , you'd start seeing what we mean
All these gargantuan paragraphs and they're all off the topic, get to the point!

By the way, beating is not used as a last resort. Go back and read the verse.
"advise them; forsake them in bed; and strike them"
Notice how Muslims try to change the meaning of the verse by adding in their own dialogues in brackets.
"[first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them."

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Beat your wife up
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2013, 04:15:38 PM »
1.) So when you don't like something, its not real. Seems like a reasoned logic. I don't like prison, so it doesn't exist.

Men are in charge with women?
Is Allah a good biologist? Why, yes, yes he is. He understands our biology. He created man to be a leader of the pride, to be a dominant figure to be a hunter, to be in charge of the family. Those are simple biological truths of the primates and the mammalian family. Don't question things you don't know about. Just because your society deluded you into believing women and men are equal, doesn't mean its true. Biological facts matter. If Men and Women are equal then we would see it phenotypically, genotypically and psychologically. But we don't. End of story. There is a reason men are what they are and why women are what they are. The creator knows his creation.

Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRs7Us-a6CU

"Righteous women are devoutly obedient"

Absolutely! Those are the women who are obedient and they protect what their husbands cant. Have you somehow disregarded the verses in the Quran that talk about the husband's duties of Marriage and how the women have similar rights as you and how the husband must be reasonable with his wife and how the husband must be kind to his wife. Somehow those don't matter right?

Beat your wife?

Mistranslated. The Word Daraba does not have to mean beat your wife. This would contradict this verse here on the same CHAPTER (4) as 4:34

[Quran 4:19] "O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness", Striking is rather harsh, isn't it?

We conclude that the word Daraba, means to 'leave' as many Arabic lexicons state. Take a look at the following sites:

http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/beating_women_(P1179).html
http://www.answering-christianity.com/beating_no.htm


If you still don't feel compelled by what I have given you. Then, consider maybe you are letting your perceptions get in the way of objective reality. If you continue to do such, kindly leave this forum. You will never believe, not even evidence can make the unwilling believe.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 04:29:37 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline The Canadian Atheist

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Re: Beat your wife up
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2013, 07:39:15 PM »
1.) So when you don't like something, its not real. Seems like a reasoned logic. I don't like prison, so it doesn't exist.
Off-topic rant

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Is Allah a good biologist? Why, yes, yes he is. He understands our biology. He created man to be a leader of the pride, to be a dominant figure to be a hunter, to be in charge of the family. Those are simple biological truths of the primates and the mammalian family. Don't question things you don't know about. Just because your society deluded you into believing women and men are equal, doesn't mean its true. Biological facts matter. If Men and Women are equal then we would see it phenotypically, genotypically and psychologically. But we don't. End of story. There is a reason men are what they are and why women are what they are. The creator knows his creation.
Did Allah knowingly create women weaker than men? If he was a good biologist he wouldn't make weak species at all...
Instead, he decides to make the Earth a jungle, with survival of the fittest. Meaning the weak lose the struggle, the top of the evolutionary ladder (Men) oppress all that are below. This just means, that he created women just so men could give them orders and have sex with them and use them as automatic sandwich makers? Your examples are of the animal kingdom, today women are independent (except in countries where they can't even drive or leave the house unaccompanied). Those still in the ages of tepees think men should be hunters and think for women.

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Mistranslated. The Word Daraba does not have to mean beat your wife. This would contradict this verse here on the same CHAPTER (4) as 4:34
If it's mistranslated why didn't anyone spot the error for 1400 years?
As for your links, I have read them. I actually like Edip Yuksel, explained it nicely.

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If you still don't feel compelled by what I have given you.
Nuh-uh. No compulsion in religion. That's 2:256 of your own book! Amazing how I know more of the Quran than most Muslims, and more about the bible than most Christians (though that one isn't really fair, I was a Christian till I was 12)
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Then, consider maybe you are letting your perceptions get in the way of objective reality. If you continue to do such, kindly leave this forum.
If you're begging me to leave this forum, what does that tell me about the debate?
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You will never believe, not even evidence can make the unwilling believe.
Yup, like evolution.

In conclusion:

Do I still believe that verse implies beating your wife up until she obeys? Nope.
Does this mean I'll accept Islam or the Quran as the divine truth? Nope.
Is this debate over? Nope. Far from it. You may have proven the usage of the word "DaRaBa", but you still have a lot to answer for. Geo-centrism in the Quran for example.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 07:42:34 PM by The Canadian Atheist »

Offline Ishfaq

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Re: Beat your wife up
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2013, 07:53:38 PM »
hitler waS a bad leader and is an exception and not the rule. so is the woman. 2. WE are not comparing human and animal brains but only human brains . greater the weight of the brain., greater ll be the thinking ability. That is why adults have more thinking ability than children. how many women scientists are known to the world.? countable. and men scientists.? un count able.
I 3. quran says ...WE have given THE QURAN to the p prophet and made it a duty for him to explain it . it is this prophetic explanation which is known as HADITH. so HADITH IS an explanation of the quran not an alternative to it but an elaboration . 4. let there be ono compulsion in religion mea m s WE cannot force non....muslims to accept Islam because Allah s bays next.... truth stands out clear from error. 6. there is no geo centresm in quran.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 07:57:59 PM by Ishfaq »

Offline The Canadian Atheist

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Re: Beat your wife up
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2013, 08:03:11 PM »
hitler waS a bad leader and is an exception and not the rule. so is the woman. 2. WE are not comparing human and animal brains but only human brains . greater the weight of the brain., greater ll be the thinking ability. That is why adults have more thinking ability than children. how many women scientists are known to the world.? countable. and men scientists.? un count able.
I 3. quran says ...WE have given THE QURAN to the p prophet and made it a duty for him to explain it . it is this prophetic explanation which is known as HADITH. so HADITH IS an explanation of the quran not an alternative to it but an elaboration . 4. let there be ono compulsion in religion mea m s WE cannot force non....muslims to accept Islam because Allah s bays next.... truth stands out clear from error. 6. there is no geo centresm in quran.

If you think the number of scientists in uncountable when it is under the range of 7 billion, then it's a sign of weak mathematical ability.
13:2 and 27:61 precisely mention geocentrism

Offline Ishfaq

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Re: Beat your wife up
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2013, 08:21:23 PM »
By un countable I mean very large . would you plea s e explain how they relate to geo centresm .

Offline The Canadian Atheist

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Re: Beat your wife up
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2013, 08:54:32 PM »
I take my word back on Quran 13:2
It could be talking about the platonic year.

As for 27:61, that's clearer
"Is He [not best] who made the earth a stable ground and placed within it rivers and made for it firmly set mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier? Is there a deity with Allah ? [No], but most of them do not know."

Some translations say "fixed abode" meaning it does not move

Offline abdullah

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Re: Beat your wife up
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2013, 11:33:51 PM »
Hello mr Canadian athiest, I must say I'm quite proud of you. Whereas before you use to  make a comment and  disappear , now you are actually  willing to converse with us on the  issue.  ( no sarcasm intended)

Now dealing with the "geocentricity in the Quran"
 In Surah An-Naml, 27:61, what has been translated as a "fixed abode should be translated as a "stable resting place," as denoted by the Arabic term qarar, in this case for the innumerable inhabitants of the earth. As far as life on earth is concerned, the earth is "stable" enough that life can exist, evolve, flourish, perish, and regenerate on it. The verse goes on to discuss the mountains and the oceans and, therefore, does not seem to warrant a reading from an astronomical perspective at all.
I think this problem stems from  reading  science into the Qur'an, which has unfortunately been committed by Muslims and non Muslims alike. I think once we understand the point  behind why Allah has verses in the Qur'an that elucidate to natural phenomena this issue vanishes. I can not speak for god and say I know why god has these ayat(verses) in the Qur'an, but I can say why I think these ayat exist in the Qur'an. Verses that elucidate to natural phenomena are not meant to provide humans with scientific data, but rather to espouse the believers curiosity and so the believer will be more appreciative to god for the countless blessings god has provided us with. Furthermore, we see all science as signs of gods existence. Muslims have two holy books one is the Quran and the other is science. Muslims in the past never had any issues with science, rather we have contributed tremendously to science and math in the past(al andalous/ Muslim Spain). God actually encourages to learn science in the Qur'an.
I hope that after reading my comment mr. Canadian Atheist, you will better appreciate the Quran for what it is. A revelation not meant to inform men about science but rather to establish objective morality and a guidance for mankind.

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Beat your wife up
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2013, 07:58:39 AM »
I'm surprised that you actually sticked around this time :)

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Off topic Ad Hominem?
Morality is subjective. If you're to base it off a 1600 year old book that commands death to apostates, infidels, unbelievers, or wife/child beating, then the real issue lies with you. You're mistaking atheism with solipsism.
Due to your lack of manners while talking about Quran and Islam , I don't find myself obligated to talk to you in manner . So I'll say "Subjective my foot !" . First of all , it IS related to the topic . You Atheists never believe in anything other than what you can see with your own eyes . When we tell you that it is a rational necessity for the universe to be created you call us retarded for blind faith and say you won't believe unless you can see this God . You believe that we came from nothing for nothing and will turn to nothing for nothing . So much "Nothing" . On what bases does an Atheist determine what's right or wrong ? Nothing . They tell you morals are subjective . So according to their twisted logic , they shouldn't object about Stalin and Hitler killing millions of people . Oh yeah , they worked with Atheism as well .
We on the other hand have a source from which we determine morals  . There can be arguments among religions about which are moral and which are not but still , there are bases to return to . The Atheist on the other hand has none . So he's the last one to talk about them .

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Weight of the brain does not imply anything. Elephants have larger brains than humans, does that make them smarter than us?
I believe this is the only correct piece of information you made .

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What verse does it say this? Or does this belong to the book of the stuff they made up as they went along because the Qur'an was getting outdated (ie. hadith)
You know what , screw you . You're clearly ignorant of any and everything in Islam so get lost . And I swear that a single conversation will show that you don't know what Hadith is , when was it written , or what are its rules . Puking some allegations because they match your desires has no value among the people of evidence and proof .

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Are you forgetting Joan of Arc? Hitler had intellectual superiority and instinct, that doesn't mean he should be in charge of the world...
The topic of women and who's in charge is a wide one . You're currently attacking with beating the wife so stick to it .

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Ad Hominem attacks keep on coming. That must mean your points are weak.
I don't care if you use "Ad homin" and "Straw man" terms or whatever you want . I said this as a side note . How come you ignored the rest which is the core of response ?

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Hmm, wasn't Mohammed supposedly a speaker on women's rights?
Peace and blessings and mercies upon him . He spoke of justice for all . Justice in no way means absolute equality . Spiritually , yes , both are equal . Aside from that , each has rights and duties .

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All these gargantuan paragraphs and they're all off the topic, get to the point!
No shame , huh ? I guess that the rest of what I wrote was directed to a block wall !

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By the way, beating is not used as a last resort. Go back and read the verse.
"advise them; forsake them in bed; and strike them"
Notice how Muslims try to change the meaning of the verse by adding in their own dialogues in brackets.
"[first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them."
If you're narrow minded and can only understand one thing without the rest - And you even fail in this ! - then that's your own bloody problem ! Hadith says so and so does Islam in total . So read before you barge in and start bombarding pages with your lack of knowledge . And why don't you answer what we mentioned ? We told you that this isn't a beating of humiliating or harming . It's to make her see her error of ways and must NOT be harsh - And that's where I disagree with mclinkin - . So don't talk like ALL women are angles and then talk about equality .

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Off-topic rant
Oh yes , it IS in topic . And you proved it yourself ignoring whatever we said that doesn't serve you .

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Did Allah knowingly create women weaker than men? If he was a good biologist he wouldn't make weak species at all...
I'm facepalming a lot today . So let me get this straight , you want men and women to be exactly the same ? On what bases or logic - if there is - do you conclude that creating creatures absolutely the same is the best ? Answer . A funny thing is , you see something which you think with your ignorance is a flaw in creation so you get overjoyed because you found something supporting your faith - Yes , I called it a faith - but at the same time , you say that this so called evolution made miracles that we didn't see but it failed at these minor things which are not mistakes by the way ?
And more drama and what you so love to call "Ad homin" . We say "Men have their rights and duties and women have their rights and duties" while this guy here says "You view women as sex objects !" .
And hold on a second . You say
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This just means, that he created women just so men could give them orders and have sex with them and use them as automatic sandwich makers? Your examples are of the animal kingdom, today women are independent (except in countries where they can't even drive or leave the house unaccompanied).
So , do I take it that you admit women are indeed sex objects and should exist to make sandwiches ?

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Those still in the ages of tepees think men should be hunters and think for women.
You know what , screw you double time . Among the things I hate most is making it look like I said something which I didn't . After what we said , this statement of yours goes with trash .

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Nuh-uh. No compulsion in religion. That's 2:256 of your own book! Amazing how I know more of the Quran than most Muslims, and more about the bible than most Christians
YOU know about Islam more than Muslims ?! Did elephants fly or something ?! No compulsion in religion yes . So what does that mean , O one who fails miserably at Arabic AND English ? It means to not force non-believers to embrace Islam . If there was no compulsion in laws and rights of individuals then bye bye humanity !

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If you're begging me to leave this forum, what does that tell me about the debate?
Let me be straight , I hate farces . He clearly told you to be objective and stop making judgment based on emotions like those of a teenager going through puberty . Is that so hard ? No ? Then do so and maybe we'll have a civilized conversation . Yes ? Then leave . Our times are more precious than dealing with a Christian who got tired of the church and so decided to hate God and spam indecency wherever he goes the way the emotional Atheists are .

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Do I still believe that verse implies beating your wife up until she obeys? Nope.
It depends on the meaning of beating in your head . Already explained .

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Does this mean I'll accept Islam or the Quran as the divine truth? Nope.
You need to get one thing through , Islam doesn't need you . So don't think we'll desperately go after every stubborn person and try to convince him or her . If your hate is so great you can't see straight , then that's your own problem . You are the one who needs Islam but pride is stopping him .

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Is this debate over? Nope. Far from it. You may have proven the usage of the word "DaRaBa", but you still have a lot to answer for. Geo-centrism in the Quran for example.
Before that , take some time off the Islamophobic sites and read some of refutations here :
http://www.ebnmaryam.com/vb/f60
Then , if you have something different from what was already answered , talk about it with some manner if there is any .

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Beat your wife up
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2013, 10:17:22 PM »
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Off-topic rant

So instead of providing a counter argument you call it a rant. Failed tactic.

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Did Allah knowingly create women weaker than men? If he was a good biologist he wouldn't make weak species at all...
Instead, he decides to make the Earth a jungle, with survival of the fittest. Meaning the weak lose the struggle, the top of the evolutionary ladder (Men) oppress all that are below. This just means, that he created women just so men could give them orders and have sex with them and use them as automatic sandwich makers? Your examples are of the animal kingdom, today women are independent (except in countries where they can't even drive or leave the house unaccompanied). Those still in the ages of tepees think men should be hunters and think for women.

I claim a good amount of knowledge in the field of biology being a microbiologist. Yes this is Allah's method of creation. Why? Because it is necessary for our survival. Allah created women to provide love care and warmth of a baby so that humanity can progress. Allah created men so that they may provide the women and children with the best life possible for existence. Its biologically ingrained in yourself. I have no idea where you got up with how men can use them for sex and automatic sandwich makers [missing Quranic reference]. This is the age of science and knowledge. We need to pursue knowledge with a passion.  I love how you just ignored my point and provided emotional arguments instead. I like Logic/reason/rationality, and most importantly: Intellectual honesty.

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If it's mistranslated why didn't anyone spot the error for 1400 years?
As for your links, I have read them. I actually like Edip Yuksel, explained it nicely.

Yes it was mistranslated. Translators are not perfect. I'm glad you liked the links. I think that Answering Christianity link was very good as well.

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Nuh-uh. No compulsion in religion. That's 2:256 of your own book! Amazing how I know more of the Quran than most Muslims, and more about the bible than most Christians (though that one isn't really fair, I was a Christian till I was 12)

There is no compulsion in religion, I don't recall begging you to convert to Islam. You do whatever, I couldn't care less.

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Then, consider maybe you are letting your perceptions get in the way of objective reality. If you continue to do such, kindly leave this forum.
If you're begging me to leave this forum, what does that tell me about the debate?

I asked you to kindly leave this forum as you and I both know you know the answers to your questions, but you ask them anyway so you can relieve your insecurity about islam. You are desperately trying to disprove Islam as being the religion of God. The signs are there for those who think, ponder and wish to surrender to such a formidable force. While those who do not wish to obey, they are given their flimsy excuses to keep themselves aloof and a temporary satisfaction. A satisfaction which perhaps hardly exists. But combined with the temptation to disobey and feel otherwise, it works for them. Don't be like those people. Intellectual honesty is important.

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Yup, like evolution.

Evolution is a Quranic concept. Don't even bring this up to me.

(Quran 76:1) Has there come on man a long period of time when he was a thing unremembered?
(Quran 71:14)  God created you in diverse stages
(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.
(Quran 30:27)  God originates creation; Then reproduces it; and For him it is most easy.
(Quran 6.133)  If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to WHATEVER He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people.
(Quran 47:38) And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; they will not be the likes of you.
(Quran 2:30) And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority."



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In conclusion:
Do I still believe that verse implies beating your wife up until she obeys? Nope.
Does this mean I'll accept Islam or the Quran as the divine truth? Nope.
Is this debate over? Nope. Far from it. You may have proven the usage of the word "DaRaBa", but you still have a lot to answer for. Geo-centrism in the Quran for example.

I'm glad you utilized your intellectual honesty for your wife beating thing. You don't have to accept Islam or the Quran, its none of our concern. We are here to do defend our faith so that others who are willing to believe see it. You can debate all you want, I ask that you remain honest and open minded.

Geo-centrism is not a Quranic concept. , But I have to agree that the Quran does indeed hint at it. We must ask ourselves why?

I want you to recall that the Quran is a book that is meant for all of mankind--past, present AND future. It has verses that command the prophet muhammad (past) and it has verses that command us to go to space when we are able to (Quran 55:33). So it must logically follow that the Quran must support 7th century belief AND modern belief without contradicting either beliefe. If the Quran directly said that humans came from ape, the earth is round etc, people back then (7th century) would have laughed at the prophet more than they already were laughing. The earth being flat was an observation back then and it was a direct proof to them. The humans coming from apes would be extremely ludicrous back then. So the Quran must hint at phenomena and they must support 7th century belief and modern belief (without contradicting either belief).
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Let me give one example:

Quran 21:33 And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all in an orbit are swimming.

Does this verse support 7th century belief of the sun and the moon rotating around the Earth (as they observed it): YES
Does this verse support modern belief that the Sun and the moon are both in an orbit: YES (the sun does have an orbit)

Notice how Allah avoided certain words in that verse so that it doesn't contradict reality! Imagine he said the sun and the moon are all in an orbit around the earth! That would contradict modern belief but only support 7th century belief. You see this kind of thing in nearly EVERY verse of the Quran.

I further recommend that you please watch my video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj4DS_QQYfo
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 10:34:58 PM by mclinkin94 »

 

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