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Messages - mokko

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In Islam / Re: Allah blesses women
« on: September 28, 2012, 04:51:26 AM »
Please explain how a man can feel "bullied" by a woman's appearance.

When you get repeatedly turned-on, without being able to succumb to this temptation. It is a torture. It is Tantalus's punishment.

You can exercise self-control on moderate levels of temptation, but beyond some point, it becomes impossible. You cannot build a society by repressing desire. This energy has to flow somewhere. It is better to channel this energy in constructive ways, instead of desperately trying to suppress it with harsh and violent laws (or inner codes of conduct). What did they achieve with this brutal method? In my opinion, just frustration and unhappiness.

In most non-Muslim countries (in the West and elsewhere), they do not need these repressive laws. They distinguish between harrassment and legitimate courtship. In those countries, women have the right to attract men with provocative dress, and they enjoy being respectfully (but confidently) approached and complimented. They also have the right to decline sollicitations (more or less politely) from unwanted approaches, and rejected men silently move on to the next. And life goes on for everyone.

There are many problems associated with this more liberal way of life, but in practice, Muslim societies have certainly not found the solution to them.

In Islam / Re: Allah blesses women
« on: September 26, 2012, 01:50:10 PM »
For the single guys who spend their lonely lives defending polygamy: don't worry inshalla you'll have a hot wife (or 4) and precious children to keep you occupied.

You complained of being persecuted, but now, it is irresponsible to use your little power to persecute others. Knowing that Muslim man supremacy is only a "tiger of paper" should not turn you into a bully.

In Muslim countries, women on streets get harrassed because men feel "bullied" by female appearance, and they try to overcome this feeling of vulnerability by getting aggressive (something women usually do not understand, they get scared and ignore that the man was actually interested). This lack of confidence on both sides is a source of this misunderstanding, I think.

When Muslim women respect male sensitivity, they will no longer need hijabs and niqabs to go out (btw, the Quran explicitly refers to female harrassment when dealing with female covering).

In Islam / Re: Allah blesses women
« on: September 26, 2012, 05:36:27 AM »
So, was it wrong for me to have hope for them--hope that allah can be gracious to such women?

Your intention was certainly good. However, the result might still be partly wrong, and people on this forum can tell you why.

1. the fate of those women could be sad indeed, but the fate of single and career-oriented women in the West is equally sad. Muslim women with families often show a symmetric compassion for their "professionally successful" sisters in the West. In all countries, it is hard to combine career and family.

2. Even in the West, most people are just realistic: marriage is not about love, it is about building a family. It is a job like others (sometimes equally boring). In real life, Western people do not live in their soap operas and telenovelas. Their pragmatism and lack of romantism can be a shock for people who know the West only through television (but now, with internet, reality emerges..).

3. The Muslim female question is always understood with the background of cultural imperialism. Western people will always get the "clean your own backyard first" reaction, even if the Muslim backyard is also not very clean.

In Islam / Re: Allah blesses women
« on: September 26, 2012, 04:58:55 AM »
the bible tolerates polygamy as well ....  there is a full christian site dedicated to support polygamy


yes, but I guess that the author of the article referred to practice by Christians. And of course, the author is wrong, because there are other religions that tolerate polygyny.

maybe he simply meant: "Islam is the most famous religion where you still find many adherents who defend polygyny".

the point of the author is partly false: today, the practice of polygyny is marginal in arab countries. however, sexual frustration is very important, and the author is correct to connect this frustration with violence. there are plenty of examples not related to religion (see for example the fury over the football match egypt-algeria, etc..).

In Islam / Re: Allah blesses women
« on: September 23, 2012, 11:02:10 AM »
Antiaparteid, you can also note that Muslim men who defend polygamy in debates, or wage war against non-Muslims, are usually not polygamous at all. Actually, they are often single.  They do the "dirty job"so that their leaders could enjoy their harem peacefully.

See the article: "Ten Politically Incorrect Truths About Human Nature"

"The surprising answer from the evolutionary psychological perspective is that Muslim suicide bombing may have nothing to do with Islam or the Koran (except for two lines in it). It may have nothing to do with the religion, politics, the culture, the race, the ethnicity, the language, or the region. As with everything else from this perspective, it may have a lot to do with sex, or, in this case, the absence of sex.

What distinguishes Islam from other major religions is that it tolerates polygyny. By allowing some men to monopolize all women and altogether excluding many men from reproductive opportunities, polygyny creates shortages of available women. If 50 percent of men have two wives each, then the other 50 percent don't get any wives at all.

So polygyny increases competitive pressure on men, especially young men of low status. It therefore increases the likelihood that young men resort to violent means to gain access to mates. By doing so, they have little to lose and much to gain compared with men who already have wives. Across all societies, polygyny makes men violent, increasing crimes such as murder and rape, even after controlling for such obvious factors as economic development, economic inequality, population density, the level of democracy, and political factors in the region.

In Islam / Re: Allah blesses women
« on: September 23, 2012, 06:40:17 AM »
Antiaparteid, I feel sad about this thread, because your opponents fell in the trap of sending threats and anathems, instead of focusing on arguments. People should educate themselves to avoid this verbal violence.

You will certainly agree that the situation of women (and slaves, also) improved during the 23 years of Muhammad's mission.
On the other hand, you can agree that building a perfect society in 23 years is humanly impossible.

For example, if you forbid wife-beating overnight, you get mess at homes. An explosion of anarchy. Freedom and responsibility needs education and time. It takes time and practice for people to learn the communication skills necessary to avoid violence (verbal or physical).

When judging Islam, you should look at the whole process, not the endpoint 23 years later.

So I ask you: where is the big deal about Islam? You need a more positive attitude towards the "Islam/women" issue. Maybe you need to change your country, instead of changing your religion. It will have more impact on your life.

For example, in some big cities in some countries (not Western), women walk alone in the night, almost naked, and nobody annoys them. However, streets are not safe for everyone, they remain very dangerous for men: crazy men sometimes attack other men, but never women.(the few Muslim men in these cities do not dare to annoy women, they are too scared for their own safety, and it is a good thing. Anyway, why Muslim men are so bad ? Is it religion, or just frustration?).

However, women in those countries face other issues, that Muslim women do not face: everything has a price, and nothing is perfect. So instead of focusing on theories (religious or otherwise), focus on practice. It was also the Prophet's attitude, and it was wise.

You rejected some parts of what is commonly called "Islam", so what? Is it the end of your journey towards understanding men-women relationships? Maybe you need an in-depth empirical and cross-cultural perspective, instead of focusing your mind on a short experience of 23 years. Would you read be interested by references on the topic?

In Islam / Re: Allah blesses women
« on: September 20, 2012, 04:05:01 PM »
I essentially agree with you that women can do great things if they find more self-confidence.

However, it can be counter-productive to tie this agenda to other things. Just push for your agenda, do not the agenda of others (especially religious agendas).

Your way to communicate with men can certainly be improved, but you have a lot of energy. good luck.

In Islam / Re: Allah blesses women
« on: September 20, 2012, 03:46:09 AM »
yes you are right.

But my opinion about this is that you should not focus so much on Muslim men, if you do not like them. Try to focus on better people. It is always hard to break from an abusive relationship, but you can find the courage to do so. There are many people outside who will enjoy being in your company and reward it better.

But the sad fact is that many women (Muslim or not) prefer to stay with "bad guys", complaining about them all the time, and ignore "nice guys" who will respect her, etc..Nice guys finish last.

So my opinion about these women is that they must either leave their man or shut up.

Can you travel? If you are free to go to Sweden, or a more feminist-oriented country, you should do so.

In Islam / Re: Allah blesses women
« on: September 19, 2012, 07:40:47 AM »
And by the way, I think I'll live harmoniously, married to an atheist. At least he'd respect my human and civil rights. And we'd make our own rules. I'd rather die than be with a man who quotes from some qur'an how he should undermine me.

That depends, if your man is darwinist, and has looked into evolutionary psychology, he could well insist on the "complementarity" of men and women, instead of their "equality". Do not equate rationality with feminism.

I advise you to make your own investigations about psychology of men and women. There are interesting scientific studies on the topic.

In 7th century Arabia, people did not have any idea about meteors, so the "jinn explanation" added to their understanding of this phenomenon. Of course, jinns are invisible anyway, but this explanation still gives sense to the phenomenon.

Today, when people see meteors, they do not spontaneously think "a devil is getting shot". They just think "a rock is burning in the atmosphere". They no longer really refer to the "jinn explanation" in their everyday life.

So although the "jinn explanation" is not contradicted nor refuted, it is subtly made irrelevant, because it lives in another plan (you have no empirical test to distinguish "random rocks" from "shooted devils", because jinns are not empirically observable anyway).

A similar mechanism works for the "sunset explanation" in another hadith.

I tried to correct groupthink in this Muslim forum, but it was too difficult.

To make groupthink testable, Irving Janis devised eight symptoms indicative of groupthink.:

Type II: Closed-mindedness

Stereotyping those who are opposed to the group as weak, evil, biased, spiteful, impotent, or stupid.

The magic keyword here is “Bible”.

Do you know what this really means as to her claim of prophethood being all based on the Bible for this specific point, and do you know how weak this made your arguments sound? Please go study and read up a bit more about the Bible.

A good starting point which you might be able to connect more with since a lot of your arguments deal with science would be to give the “Creation of the Universe” accounts from Genesis in the Bible a closer look and try and give it some thought.

i failed to see how the Bible is significantly worse than the Quran from a scientific viewpoint. It is not a surprise, since the second is directly inspired from the first (but just more vague).

You are right, I am not qualified to understand the clear and sound counter-arguments found of this website. I do not deserve my place here.

you will certainly learn more from this link than from our discussion

so what? Maybe Ellen White was also a descendant of Abraham, who knows.

Ellen White was certainly a descendant of Adam.

[/quote] Did Ellen White live among pagans? And how does it come that there are so many atheists in America? Did Ellen White change whole America into worshipping God alone?[/quote]

She made her contribution. All prophets are different, but equal. Did Jesus live among pagans?

Muhammad is sent for the whole mankind.
Ellen White too.

Remember her false prophecies? Remember Harold Camping?

what is his connection with Ellen White?

1. Muhammad wasn't just a mere man, he was a descendant of Abraham.
so what? Maybe Ellen White was also a descendant of Abraham, who knows.

2. He preached the monotheism, the belief in One God.

Ellen White too.

3. «During the 23-year period of his prophethood, he changed the entire Arabian Peninsula from paganism to worship of the one true God, from tribal warfare to national unity, from anarchy to disciplined living, from barbarism to the highest standard of moral excellence. At the time of his death most inhabitants of Arabia and the southern regions of Iraq and Palestine had voluntarily embraced Islam. To posterity he left a creed of pure monotheism that included comprehensive legislation based on a balanced system of moral values.» (Clear your doubts about Islam, Sahih International)
4. After the start of his Prophethood, a lot of people started believing in One God and stopped worshipping idols.

Ellen White did similar things in America, and maybe even some better things.

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