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My 3rd study,The futile muslim-christian debate of "Is the Trinity biblical".

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Egyptian:

I would like to conclude my positive criticism , with answering the question,What made Muslims commit such mistakes...

Do you know who are the christian Unitarians? Those are the people who (even before Islam) though believed in the new testament as fully the word of God , and Jesus was crucified and atoned the sinful Christians. yet they objected to the trinity. examples of them ,The Arians ,testimony of Jehovah etc.....

their belief of the new testament as fully inspired, and at the same time rejecting the trinity ,forced them to argue that the trinity proof texts are misunderstood by the so called orthodox Christianity.

the Muslim writers made the mistake of following their arguments, assuming they have our exact position,but the fact our problem with the trinity is much deeper that their ..

out problem can't be resolved by believing that the bible has a textual support for the trinity ... because If there was such textual support ,it would be included automatically in the human made passages that are included within the Injeel..

one last word ...

I hope the dear Muslims who read that ,no longer waste their times ,getting themselves into such futile headache called "Is the trinity biblical ,the debate"....


...........................

To be continued inshallah

peace be upon you.



Final Overture:

--- Quote from: Egyptian on August 18, 2012, 04:19:50 PM ---3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.[/color][/b]

Through the word ,that is Jesus ,everything was created !.....

--- End quote ---
Jesus never said that through him everything was created. Jesus was rather word From God than Word of God (see the difference?). The idea that through Jesus everything is created comes from, as i think, this: "
--- Quote ---By the word of the Lord the heavens were made
--- End quote ---
Psalms 33:6
The word "BE", as I guess

Egyptian:
 welcome Bro Final Overture,to the thread ... 

First : I agree with you that The idea that through Jesus everything is created comes from "By the word of the Lord the heavens were made" ,the writer of John believed that Jesus is that word.

Second: Again I agree that "Jesus never said that through him everything was created" , it is the writer of John ,also the writer (s) of 1 Corinthians 8:6 , Colossians 1:15 , Hebrews 1:1 ,who said so .

1 Corinthians 8:6
Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Hebrews 1 1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.


Though Trinitarians understand the verses as Jesus God the pr-existent creator, Unitarians understand the verses as the function of God the Father as the SOURCE of creation is distinguished from Christ's role as MEDIATOR of creation
the Father alone is the source and his first creation (the only direct creation by Him), His only-begotten son, is the channel through whom he caused all the rest of creation to be.

Such controversy shouldn't bother us even for a minute, as both of their understandings are against Islam ... Jesus neither God the creator nor the channel through whom he caused all the rest of creation to be.
The Islamic Jesus is a by product of the word ,not the word ,and wasn't the entity through whom the universe was created....

Third : The goal of the study is not to prove a Trinitarian reading against a Unitarian one ,neither the opposite ...    but rather to say that BOTH readings are against Islam , and there are no valuable consequences ,to held any of the readings for the truth of Islam .....
I explained before why the question of whether the Bible contains a textual support for the trinity,is of no merit . and should make no difference for Islam or Muslims.

Fourth : I believe that the writer of John(and others as well,eg;Paul) believed ,at least ,of the pre-existence of Jesus as a conscious entity (whatever grade such entity is considered, whether God or divine but not God)... If you read their texts without any preconceived ideas, expectations ,you most probably agree with me.

Fifth: The matter is different when it comes to the synoptic gospels .
I think nothing compelling to suggest from  any passage from the synoptic gospels, that the writers,in spite of their highly,mostly non Islamic elevated views of Jesus, believed in him as God ...

I hope the next posts I elaborate more those points.

laloumen:

--- Quote from: Egyptian on August 18, 2012, 04:32:49 PM ---To add to the second mistake of confusing ,Is Jesus God? with ,Is Jesus God be biblical?

What if the divinity of Jesus proved to be biblical?
If we suppose that the trinity is biblical ,still that doesn't proof that the trinity is a fact..... Jesus ,according to the bible, atoned with his blood the sinful Christians ,but that doesn't mean it is a fact. Jesus  ,according to the bible, was killed and resurrected from the dead,but that doesn't mean it is a fact.
Our position in Islam is clear . the Quran denies the deity of Jesus ,not whether it is taught in the bible, or not !..
I have contacted some in-experienced Muslims who felt disappointed after reading or listening to the christian materials that argue for the divinity of Jesus as biblical .....
those good ,pious Muslims, been confused and wrongly thought, that if the bible teaches trinity then not only Christianity is true but Islam is false !!!!

--- End quote ---

Here is a word from the Qu'ran:

And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way)
that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe
in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God
and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender.
(29:46)

Given that that divinity of Jesus can be easily proven, and given that the Qu'ran states that "we believe in that what hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you" - that means you are obligated to believe in the divinity of Jesus.  It says, "our God and your God is One" and our God is a Trinity - so where does that leave you, except with a disaster on your hands????


In Christ,
Jim

laloumen:

--- Quote from: Egyptian on August 19, 2012, 05:59:23 AM --- welcome Bro Final Overture,to the thread ... 

Such controversy shouldn't bother us even for a minute, as both of their understandings are against Islam ... Jesus neither God the creator nor the channel through whom he caused all the rest of creation to be.
The Islamic Jesus is a by product of the word ,not the word ,and wasn't the entity through whom the universe was created....

Third : The goal of the study is not to prove a Trinitarian reading against a Unitarian one ,neither the opposite ...    but rather to say that BOTH readings are against Islam , and there are no valuable consequences ,to held any of the readings for the truth of Islam .....
I explained before why the question of whether the Bible contains a textual support for the trinity,is of no merit . and should make no difference for Islam or Muslims.


--- End quote ---

Given that the Qu'ran says "we have believed in what was given to Jesus and the prophets" --

Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and
what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants,
and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord.
We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting]
to Him."
(3:84)

and that a "prophet from their Lord" said the following concerning Jesus,

But of the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
   the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
   with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."

And,

"You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
   and the heavens are the work of your hands;
they will perish, but you remain;
   they will all wear out like a garment,
like a robe you will roll them up,
   like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same,
   and your years will have no end."
(Hebrews 1:8-12)


It doesn't seem that there is any reason for the Muslim to reject Christ as the Creator God.


In Christ,
Jim

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