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Messages - Mahir Adnan

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anybody watched Trinity vs tawheed debate?? wood has become very furious on youtube and other Christians has become very active, because brother hijab exposed the reality of Bible. once again Allah proved the truth.
#hijab smashed their boy so badly, dude. :P I just can't stop laughing. ;D but who will stop ongoing virtual attack of Christian youtubers??  ??? ???

« on: August 29, 2018, 04:21:51 PM »

Home » Self Improvement »  Shaykh Aaidh Ibn Abdullah al-Qarni » Don't Be Sad
Don't Be Sad
 1:34 AM  Abu Hisham  2  Self Improvement, Shaykh Aaidh Ibn Abdullah al-Qarni
Don't be sad by Aaidh ibn Abdullah al-Qarni
Don't Be Sad by Aaidh ibn Abdullah al-Qarni
At a time in which the Muslims are beset with trials from every periphery and within, comes this heartening book rooted in the commandments of Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala), the Sunnah and the excellent guidance and examples of the Muslims that have come before us.

Don't Be Sad is an absolute must-read for all people. It is full of practical advice on how to replace sadness with a pragmatic and ultimately satisfying Islamic outlook on life. It exposes to the modern reader how Islam teaches us to deal with the tests and tribulations of this world. So, take heart and hold firmly onto the rope of Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala).

Download Don't Be Sad by Aaidh ibn Abdullah al-Qarni (PDF)

« on: August 29, 2018, 04:18:13 PM »
you  might like this

GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Re: Is wearing a amulet shirk!
« on: August 29, 2018, 04:15:37 PM »
this will help you

you are a brave Muslim, brother osama. we are proud of you.

« on: August 29, 2018, 04:03:18 PM »
you are wrong, bro. I don't think, it's possible to create hatred between Pakistani and Indian Muslims,not after the rape of asifa at hindu temple.
if you want to be worried about something, you should learn about Bangladeshi politics. the current secular government is using history of 1971,a hatred which is almost 50 years old,  to direct  people's support to India.

Ahteism & Agnosticism / There is Allah
« on: August 28, 2018, 09:11:34 AM »

Allah says (what means):  “Were they created by nothing? Or were they themselves the creators?

Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, but they have no firm Belief.” [52:35] 

See the Universe
The universe operates by uniform laws of nature. Why does it?
In 1960 the Princeton physicist – and subsequent Nobel Prize winner – Eugene Wigner raised a fundamental question: Why did the natural world always – so far as we know – obey laws of mathematics?

Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said, "Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all is a kind of miracle."

How could two distant objects in the solar system be drawn toward one another, acting according to a precise mathematical law? Indeed, Newton made strenuous efforts over his lifetime to find a natural explanation, but in the end he could say only that it is the will of Allah.

Wigner wrote, “the enormous usefulness of mathematics in the natural sciences is something bordering on the mysterious and there is no rational explanation for it.”

Pascal's Wager
As originally proposed by Pascal, the Wager assumes that logical reasoning by itself cannot decide for or against the existence of Allah; there seem to be good reasons on both sides. Now since reason cannot decide for sure, and since the question is of such importance that we must decide somehow, then we must "wager" if we cannot prove. And so we are asked: Where are you going to place your bet?

If you place it with Allah, you lose nothing, even if it turns out that Allah does not exist. But if you place it against Allah, and you are wrong and Allah does exist, you lose everything: Allah, eternity, heaven, infinite gain. "Let us assess the two cases: if you win, you win everything, if you lose, you lose nothing."

Consider the following diagram:

The vertical lines represent correct beliefs, the diagonals represent incorrect beliefs. Let us compare the diagonals. Suppose Allah does not exist and I believe in him. In that case, what awaits me after death is not eternal life but, most likely, eternal nonexistence. But now take the other diagonal: Allah, my Creator and the source of all good, does exist; but I do not believe in him. He offers me his love and his life, and I reject it. There are answers to my greatest questions, there is fulfillment of my deepest desires; but I decide to spurn it all. In that case, I lose (or at least seriously risk losing) everything.

The Wager can seem offensively venal and purely selfish. But it can be reformulated to appeal to a higher moral motive: If there is a Allah of infinite goodness, and he justly deserves my allegiance and faith, I risk doing the greatest injustice by not acknowledging him.

The Wager cannot—or should not—coerce belief. But it can be an incentive for us to search for Allah, to study and restudy the arguments that seek to show that there is Something—or Someone—who is the ultimate explanation of the universe and of my life. It could at lease motivate "The Prayer of the Skeptic": "Allah, I don't know whether you exist or not, but if you do, please show me who you are."

Pascal says that there are three kinds of people: those who have sought Allah and found him, those who are seeking and have not yet found, and those who neither seek nor find. The first are reasonable and happy, the second are reasonable and unhappy, the third are both unreasonable and unhappy. If the Wager stimulates us at least to seek, then it will at least stimulate us to be reasonable. And if the promise Rasulullah makes is true, all who seek will find, and thus will be happy.

In the creation of the heavens and earth and in the succession of day and night there are certainly signs for those who reflect. Those who remember God while standing, sitting, and laying down and ponder on the creation of the heavens and the earth, saying: Our Lord you have not created this in vain. Glory be to You. Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.

The universe had a start - what caused it?
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, "The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen."[ii] Allah provides the best explanation of the origin of the universe.

أَوَلَمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَنَّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ كَانَتَا رَتْقًا فَفَتَقْنَاهُمَا ۖ وَجَعَلْنَا مِنَ الْمَاءِ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ حَيٍّ ۖ أَفَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ  (الأنبياء ، 21: 30). 

Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the Earth were a joined entity, and We splintered (separated) them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe? (Al-Anbiya, 21: 30 of the Holy Quran). 

The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.


If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.[iii] And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained from spilling over across the continents.[iv]
Water cycle is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.[v]
The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.[vi]
Eye has automatic focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.[vii]
Allah provides the best explanation for the fine-tuning of the universe. In one verse, in the Quran, it says, “God created everything in exact proportion.” (16:25)

See Yourself
Allah says, “Do they not reflect in their own minds?” (30:8)

In 2004 the great British physicist Roger Penrose put forward a vision of a universe composed of three independently existing worlds – mathematics, the material world and human consciousness.

How can physical atoms and molecules, for example, create something that exists in a separate domain that has no physical existence: human consciousness?

It is a mystery that lies beyond science.

Like the laws of mathematics, consciousness has no physical presence in the world; the images and thoughts in our consciousness have no measurable dimensions.

Yet, our nonphysical thoughts somehow mysteriously guide the actions of our physical human bodies. This is no more scientifically explicable than the mysterious ability of nonphysical mathematical constructions to determine the workings of a separate physical world.

Until recently, the scientifically unfathomable quality of human consciousness inhibited the very scholarly discussion of the subject.

Recognizing that he could not reconcile his own scientific materialism with the existence of a nonphysical world of human consciousness, a leading atheist, Daniel Dennett, in 1991 took the radical step of denying that consciousness even exists.

Finding this altogether implausible, as most people do, another leading philosopher, Thomas Nagel, wrote in 2012 that, given the scientifically inexplicable – the “intractable” – character of human consciousness, “we will have to leave [scientific] materialism behind” as a complete basis for understanding the world of human existence.

As an atheist, Nagel does not offer religious belief as an alternative, but I would argue that the supernatural character of the workings of human consciousness adds grounds for raising the probability of the existence of a supernatural Allah.

The DNA and protein.
A cell needs a minimum of over 400 different proteins to make the machines that are absolutely essential for life.
Then let’s take just one protein component of that machine, less than 10% of the total. This protein is 329 amino acids in length. What would be the chance of getting this one protein by chance, assuming that the correct, and only the correct, amino acid ingredients were present? Calculate it this way: 1/20 x 1/20 x 1/20 … 329 times! This is a probability of 1 in 10428 … a number with 428 zeros after the 1! Even if every atom in the universe (1080—a number with 80 zeros) represented an experiment for every molecular vibration possible (1012 per second) for the supposed evolutionary age of the universe (14 billion years=1018 seconds), this would allow ‘only’ 10110 experiments—a long, long way short of the number needed to have a ghost of a chance of getting just this one protein to form[viii], let alone the over 400 others needed.

DNA is a three-billion-lettered program telling the cell to act in a certain way. It is a full instruction manual.[ix]
Allah provides the best explanation of objective moral values and duties.
Even atheists recognize that some things, for example, the Holocaust, are objectively evil. But if atheism is true, what basis is there for the objectivity of the moral values we affirm? Evolution? Social conditioning? These factors may at best produce in us the subjective feeling that there are objective moral values and duties, but they do nothing to provide a basis for them. If human evolution had taken a different path, a very different set of moral feelings might have evolved.

Moreover, A number of developments in evolutionary theory have challenged traditional Darwinist – and later neo-Darwinist – views that emphasize random genetic mutations and gradual evolutionary selection by the process of survival of the fittest.

American novelist and essayist David Foster Wallace said that: “Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship.”

“Do they not see that We have created for them of what Our Hands have created, the cattle, so that they are their owners.

And We have subdued them unto them so that some of them they have for riding and some they eat.” [36:71-72]

The Ontological Argument
The ontological argument was devised by Anselm of Canterbury (1033-1109), who wanted to produce a single, simple demonstration which would show that Allah is and what Allah is.

Anselm's Version

It is greater for a thing to exist in the mind and in reality than in the mind alone.
"Allah" means "that than which a greater cannot be thought."
Suppose that Allah exists in the mind but not in reality.
Then a greater than Allah could be thought (namely, a being that has all the qualities our thought of Allah has plus real existence).
But this is impossible, for Allah is "that than which a greater cannot be thought."
Therefore Allah exists in the mind and in reality.
Charles Hartshorne and Norman Malcolm developed this version of the ontological argument. Both find it implicitly contained in the third chapter of Anselm's Proslogion.

The expression "that being than which a greater cannot be thought" (GCB, for short) expresses a consistent concept.
GCB cannot be thought of as: a. necessarily nonexistent; or as b. contingently existing but only as c. necessarily existing.
So GCB can only be thought of as the kind of being that cannot not exist, that must exist.
But what must be so is so.
Therefore, GCB (i.e., Allah) exists.
Allah said:

{هُوَ الأَوَّلُ وَالآخِرُ }

which means: [Allah is the Eternal, without a beginning, and the Everlasting, without an ending.]

Who worships none?
Even though Karl Marx, for example, condemned the illusion of religion, his followers, ironically, worshiped Marxism. The American philosopher Alasdair MacIntyre thus wrote that for much of the 20th century, Marxism was the “historical successor of Christianity,” claiming to show the faithful the one correct path to a new heaven on Earth.

It is obligatory to believe Allah is attributed with Speech (Kalam). This is an eternal and everlasting attribute with which Allah orders, forbids, and informs. It is not a letter nor a sound nor a language. The Qur'an and the other revealed Books are expressions of the eternal Kalam of the Self of Allah. When we write the word "Allah" it is an expression of the Self of Allah. Likewise, the words and sentences of the revealed Books are expressions of the Kalam of Allah. The Qur'an is called the Kalam of Allah because it is not authored by Prophet Muhammad or Angel Jibril. The Qur'an is also used to mean the eternal Kalam of the Self of Allah. Allah said:

{وَكَلَّمَ اللهُ مُوسَى تَكْلِيمًا}

which means: [Allah spoke to Musa with His eternal Kalam] i.e., Allah created in Prophet Musa the ability to hear the Kalam of the Self of Allah, which is not a letter nor a sound.

and Allah knows best. Truly a God you can proud of.


Richard Feynman, The Meaning of It All: Thoughts of a Citizen-Scientist (New York: BasicBooks, 1998), 43.

[ii] Robert Jastrow; "Message from Professor Robert Jastrow";; 2002

[iii] R.E.D. Clark, Creation (London: Tyndale Press, 1946), p. 20

[iv] The Wonders of God's Creation, Moody Institute of Science (Chicago, IL)

[v] Ibid.

[vi] Ibid.

[vii] Hugh Davson, Physiology of the Eye, 5th ed (New York: McGraw Hill, 1991)

[viii] Even if the universe were 10 times bigger and 10 times older, this only makes it 10112 experiments. No matter how you jiggle the numbers, the number of possible experiments comes up way short.

[ix] Francis S. Collins, director of the Human Genome Project, and author of The Language of God, (Free Press, New York, NY), 2006


Quran never said, Mountains prevent earthquakes [Zakir Naik]
in Surah Luqman, Ch. No. 31 Verse No.10, as well as in Surah Nahl, Ch. No. 16, Verse No. 15, that…

‘We have made the mountains standing firm on the Earth, lest it would shake with them and with you.’

The function of the mountain in the Qur’an, is given to prevent the Earth from shaking. Nowhere does the Qur’an say that the mountain prevents the earthquake.

And Dr. William Campbell said - He writes in his book, and even the talk, that… ‘You find in the mountains regions, there are various earthquakes, and mountains cause earthquake.’

Point to be noted- Nowhere does the Qur’an say that mountains prevent earthquake. The Arabic word for ‘earthquake’ as Dr. William Campbell knows Arabic, is ‘zilzaal’ or‘zalzala’- But  the words used in these three Verses I quoted, it is ‘Tamida.’ ‘Tamida’ means ‘to shake’, ‘to ‘sway’,  ‘to swing.’ And Qur’an says in Surah Luqman, Ch. 31, Verse No. 10, as well as Surah Nahl, Ch. No. 16 Verse No. 15…

‘We have put on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it would shake with you.

It is ‘tamide bikum’…‘Shake with you’, ...

according to Dr. Frank Press and Dr. Najjat who is from Saudi Arabia, and he wrote a full book on the Geological concepts in theQur’an, answering almost every thing what Dr. William Campbell has said - in detail. And Dr. William Campbell in his book, he writes that…‘If mountains prevent the shaking of the earth, then how come you find earthquakes in the mountains regions.’

I said, No where does the Qur’an say, mountains prevent earthquake. Earthquake is ‘zilzaal’ - and if you see the definition in the Oxford dictionary, it says… Earthquake is due to convulsion of the superficial crust of the Earth, due to relief of compressed Siesmic waves, due to crack in the rock, or due to volcanic reaction. The Qur’an speaks about ‘zalzala’in Surah Zalzaal, Ch. 99.

But here it speaks about ‘tamida bikum’- ‘to prevent the earth from shaking with you.’ And in reply to the statement…‘That if mountains prevent earthquakes, how come you find earthquakes in mountainous regions ?’ The reply is, that - If I say that medical doctors, they prevent the sickness and disease in a human being, and if someone argues…‘If doctors prevent the sickness and diseases in a human being, how come you find more sick people in the hospitals, where there are more doctors than at home - where there are no doctors.’

Mountains and Earth's rotation
NASA says, "To understand the concept of angular momentum, visualize the Earth spinning in space. Given Earth’s overall mass and its rotation, it contains a certain amount of angular momentum. When an additional force acting at a distance from the Earth's rotational axis occurs, referred to as a torque, such as changes in surface winds, or the distribution of high and low pressure patterns, especially near mountains, it can act to change the rate of the Earth’s rotation or even the direction of the rotational axis". [ ]

My opinion:
Wind on land and water changes earth's angular momentum. All of this change is balanced by a small number of mountains on landmass. Because mountains affects wind flow.

Mountains and ground motion
Zakir Naik explained that mountains do not prevent earthquakes, rather they prevent shaking [ground motion]. Ground motion is the movement of the earth's surface from earthquakes or explosions.

Only effects of mountains are being considered
Effects of Large-Scale Surface Topography on Ground Motions, as Demonstrated by a Study of the San Gabriel Mountains, Los Angeles, California 
Shuo Ma; Ralph J. Archuleta; Morgan T. Page
Bulletin of the Seismological Society of America (2007) 97 (6): 2066-2079.
We investigate the effects of large-scale surface topography on ground motions generated by nearby faulting. We show a specific example studying the effect of the San Gabriel Mountains, which are bounded by the Mojave segment of the San Andreas fault on the north and by the Los Angeles Basin on the south. By simulating a Mw 7.5 earthquake on the Mojave segment of the San Andreas fault, we show that the San Gabriel Mountains act as a natural seismic insulator for metropolitan Los Angeles. The topography of the mountains scatters the surface waves generated by the rupture on the San Andreas fault, leading to less-efficient excitation of basin-edge generated waves and natural resonances within the Los Angeles Basin. The effect of the mountains reduces the peak amplitude of ground velocity for some regions in the basin by as much as 50% in the frequency band up to 0.5 Hz. These results suggest that, depending on the relative location of faulting and the nearby large-scale topography, the topography can shield some areas from ground shaking.

Effects of Topography on Seismic-Wave Propagation: An Example from Northern Taiwan 
Shiann-Jong Lee; Dimitri Komatitsch; Bor-Shouh Huang; Jeroen Tromp
Bulletin of the Seismological Society of America (2009) 99 (1): 314-325.
Topography influences ground motion and, in general, increases the amplitude of shaking at mountain tops and ridges, whereas valleys have reduced ground motions, as is observed from data recorded during and after real earthquakes and from numerical simulations...  if a shallow earthquake occurs in the I-Lan region of Taiwan, the Central Mountain Range will significantly scatter the surface waves and will in turn reduce the amplitude of ground motion in the Taipei basin...

Effects of other features are considered too
However, as the hypocenter moves deeper, topography scatters body waves, which subsequently propagate as surface waves into the basin. These waves continue to interact with the basin and the surrounding mountains, finally resulting in complex amplification patterns in Taipei City, with an overall PGV increase of more than 50%. For realistic subduction zone earthquake scenarios off the northeast coast of Taiwan, the effects of topography on ground motion in both the mountains and the Taipei basin vary and depend on the rupture process. The complex interactions that can occur between mountains and surrounding areas, especially sedimentary basins, illustrate the fact that topography should be taken into account when assessing seismic hazard.

[Shiann-Jong Lee, Dimitri Komatitsch, Bor-Shouh Huang, Jeroen Tromp; Effects of Topography on Seismic-Wave Propagation: An Example from Northern Taiwan. Bulletin of the Seismological Society of America ; 99 (1): 314–325. doi: ]

My opinion
So, if we consider the effect of mountains only, it is proved that mountains act as  a natural seismic insulator like san gabriel mountains. But ,when other features come into the scene like taipei basin, similar effect may not be achieved. So, the Quran is correct, because Quran is talking only about the effects of mouontains, not combined effect of other features too.

Following article is taken from 'Stars on the Earth: Domes and Stargates, and How to Interact with Them' By Richard Leviton [page : 98-100]

[ Richard Leviton is an American writer, researcher and editor.

Since 1984, he has been interacting with and describing the Earth’s Light body and through workshops facilitating in others directed visionary encounters with the planet.

For more information about the author: ]

Richard Leviton writes:-
The ancient view from Persia about aerial sky cords connected to one central cosmic mountain seeems congruent with modern plate tectonics theory. Making the link for us is a prescient observation from the Quran (78: 6-7), which says, "Have we not made the earth as a wide expanse, and the mountains as pegs?" The key Arabic word is awtad which means stakes or pegs, like those used to anchor a tent into the ground. In this view, the mountains had a form like wedge-shaped pegs or stakes rooted deep into the Earth and they kept the land from shaking; most of a properly set peg is buried beneath the ground's surface, like a mountain's roots. In geological terms, a mountain has deep roots into the Earth's crust and acts to stabilize it across the planet and keep the continental plaates fastened. Maybe the weight helps too. The Quran says (16:15) that moun-tains keep the Earth from shaking by stabilizing the crust: "And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you...."

...You can see the inherent instability in this picture: rigid, brittle land mass plates, the lithosphere, all of Earth life above them, riding a mobile, plastic, malleable soft undersea of flowing rocks. Or we could say, the flowing but not quite molten rocks of the asthenosphere carry the Earth's lithosphere and tectonic plates on its back. Some geologists liken the viscosity of the mantle to piano wire. Look under the "hood" of a Steinway and you'll see strings capable of floating a continent. "They are rigid, but ever so slowly they will sag, will slacken, will deform, and give way, with the exact viscosity of the earth's mantle." [84]...

...Since the majority of the Earth's crust is thin and set on a very hot, unstable, and moving molten sea, it is vulnerable to shaking; also, due to the Earth's rotation on its axis, these tidal forces can cause the plates to shift too much.[85] The mountains act like stakes or nails inserted into the crust to steady and stabilize it. Thus the mountains are physical pegs that tie down the aerial sky cords.

Let's stay with the plate tectonics and Pangaea theory a little longer. When we consider the first arrival of the domes we are dealing with the Earth's earliest days, the time when the lithosphere was first created, or extrapolated, and to a quality of the planet's surface which various myths from different cultures hint at as being wet, malleable clay, when its land-scape features and the density of the land itself were still congealing. The domes came and it was like wrapping a star cluster around the young Earth. The location and function of every star in this cluster was accounted for. The draping of the star cluster was perfectly matched to the landforms, both present and to emerge. We are talking about the ear-liest terraforming days of the planet, when its landmasses and landscape configurations started to take shape, started to be purposefully shaped, and started to congeal and harden to be a walkable surface.[86]


[84] John McPhee, Annals of the Former World (New York: Farrar, Straus, and Giroux, 1998): 45.

[85] Due to the influence of low-intensity but prolonged stresses (such as the planet's rotation on its axis and the Earth's internal heat radiation), forces that drive the movements of plate tectonics, "the lithosphere responds essentially as a rigid shell and thus deforms primarily through brittle failure, while the asthenos-phere accommodates strain through plastic deformation." "Lithosphere," Wikipedia, at

[86] Geologists prefer the explanation that blind forces of Nature inexorably pro-duce results, but intellectually this seems an inadequate explanation. Something mechanical needs an operator. The Earth is a designer planet; that means every-thing has been designed, planned, accounted for, and supervised. Things were not left to chance or to the opportunistic, impersonal accidents scientists prefer. The allocation of geomantic features to landmasses was planned out long in advance, which means the size, type, and situation of the various landmasses had to be accounted for and perhaps adjusted along the way by the master planetary engineers. The powerful Earth forces described by geologists are certainly real, but they are the car's motor: somebody (the agents of the Designer) is driving the vehicle and they have a destination and route in mind.[/size][/font]

« on: June 19, 2018, 04:23:27 PM »
50000$!!!  give me a break. ali sina will never donate,believe me. they love worldly things more than hereafter. 
Mutual rivalry for piling up (the good things of this world) diverts you (from the more serious things), until you visit the graves. (Surat at-Takathur: 1-2)
May Allah save Palestine  :'(

I was doing some research on hazrat Ibrahim (a.s.). so, I need some information from Bible. does the Bible says that, prophet Ibrahim went to mecca and built kaaba.
note: I saw video on youtube regarding a book titled "return to mecca".

« on: June 19, 2018, 04:03:14 PM »
How do you know that the baby that you married your baby-daughter to will be a good man anyway???
indeed, you are right. but it's possible that certain situation may arise while we have to do haram,but then haram is considered as halal.
as example,  pig is also halal, if you want to avoid death.

« on: May 27, 2018, 01:35:06 PM »
A person who has not "reached the age of marriage" is not to be married off. 

yes, I agree. and our scholars also agree on this matter. they just said that, "if" it's necessary, then you are allowed to arrange a marriage for your child. otherwise it's haram.

« on: May 24, 2018, 02:12:39 PM »
there is no specific age
ruling on giving a minor boy or daughter  to marriage
he/she  must not sleep with his/her wife/husband until she/he reach puberty

Hinduism / No more truthabouthinduism
« on: May 24, 2018, 02:02:16 PM »
(Removed.  Blog no longer exists)

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