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My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
Egyptian:
I intend the study inshallah to be as much comprehensive as to address all the points related to the topic ,including answering the christian delusions regarding the quranic holy spirit ,the issue of Mary with regard to trinity etc.....
I read almost all what is written by Christians regarding those matters and the counter rebuttals by Muslims ,and have some more to add to what they wrote inshallah....
..........................................
We as Muslims held the belief of the trinity as just one chapter of the book of shirk …The overwhelmingly powerful assertion in the Quran that God is absolutely one rules out any notion that another being could share his sovereignty or nature …..
The Quran’s view the Christian doctrine of the Trinity involves an association of creature with God the creator, an infidelity that participates in the pagan infidelity of polytheism....
Christians on the other hand , used to affirm that trinity and true monotheism are compatible ,that Muslims misunderstand the trinity,that the Qur'an accuses a sectarian trinity "Father,Mary,Son" etc......
A Muslim christian dialogue
1st Issue :3 gods?
Christian: God for me and orthodox Christians, three divine persons Father, Son,and Holy Spirit distinctly coexisting in unity as co-equal, co-eternal, and consubstantial , or of one being According to this doctrine, God exists as three persons but is one God, meaning that God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have exactly the same nature or being as God the Father in every way. Whatever attributes and power God the Father has, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit have as well. "Thus, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are also eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, infinitely wise, infinitely holy, infinitely loving, and omniscient."
you Muslims misunderstood that,and accuse us of believing in three gods ....
Muslim :
First : Not true that Muslims accuse Christians that they believe in 3 gods...
god (with small g) means false one,isn't it ? if so trinity isn't 3 gods,according to Islam ... read the following Islamic definition of God to get the clue.
What is God, according to Islam?
He is the entity that sent Jesus and appointed for him a mission,we call him (Allah)...Christians would like to call such being by (the father) .... Well, though we think he is a father of no one... we won't prohibit you from calling him what you wish, but pay attention....Whenever we mention the word (Allah ) whom you call (the father) we believe in him as the full un-manifested deity. He doesn’t mean for us one of the three aspects of the deity. Allah (what Christians call the father) is not what you think the incomplete definition of the deity but he is the full UN-personified deity.....
Allah (whom they call the father, considering him just one of the three manifestation of the divine being ) is the only divine entity to be exist and to be alone worshiped ...he doesn't need neither (the son),nor (the holy spirit) to complete the Godhead..... he is simply alone there ....
The Quran accuses Christians with ascribing mortal partners to the almighty,besides ,offering the worship that is due to Allah alone ...
Egyptian:
Though we disagree regarding the limit of the father with regard to the deity, we agree in two points ...that (1) such entity exists (2) and divine as well...
Christians don't believe in 3 gods,according to the Quran. but associating with the one true God (the father as they like to call),with 2 non divine entities (Jesus,holy spirit)... it is not (god+god+god) but (God+god+god).
second :May I ask you where did you get the idea that there is God and he is manifested to his creation with three ways? you will argue that the bible says so.... and the bible is entirely the word of God ,that it must be telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth in any Metaphysical concept therein.
....
In other words ,the validity of the trinity depends on the validity of the bible ....
it is a matter of faith ,or would you claim that the supreme being is kept there in a laboratory and proven to be with three manifestations?
your definition of the deity (as manifested in 3 ways) is based on a book of faith (bible),on the other hand a Muslim counter definition of the deity (one entity with no manifestations) is based on a book of faith ,too (Quran) .......
Jesus could be a physical manifestation of the deity, or a prophet, or a lunatic etc.....The validity of any of the previous rests on the validity of the scripture whether Christian, Islamic.....
Egyptian:
Issue No.2 The holy spirit s Gabriel[/color][/size]
Christian: we believe the Holy Spirit as one Person of the Triune God, who revealed His Holy Name YHWH to his people Israel, sent His Eternally Begotten Son Jesus to save them, and sent the Holy Spirit to Sanctify and give Life to his Church. He is the Creator Spirit, present before the creation of the universe and through his power everything was made in Jesus Christ..
Muslim : According to Islam (Quran and Sunnah) ,The Holy Spirit is identified with The Angel Gabriel ....
Christian: What evidence is given to suggest that the Holy Spirit is Gabriel?
Muslim : In the Quran, The word appears twenty-one times and has several different usages in the Qur'an with a wide range of meanings.
1- Spirit as Revelation: Holy Quran 42:52 We have thus revealed a Spirit to you [Prophet] by our command: you knew neither the Scripture nor the faith, but We made it a light, guiding with it whoever We will of Our servants. You are indeed guiding to the straight path.
Here spirit is an inspiration , brought to life in those whose hearts are dead through ignorance.
Christian: It seems that the spirit in the verse is an entity reveals the revelation….
Muslim: why not the revelation itself?
Christian: Holy Quran 16:2 Also 40:15 He sends down the Angels with the Spirit (Ruh) by His command upon whom He wishes of His servants: "That you shall warn that there is no god but I, so be aware of me."
The Quran is simply emphasizing the point that it is Allah that commands the Spirit to come down and reveal the inspiration.
Muslim: Can’t we say that he sends, by his command, the angels with the revelation upon whom He wishes of His servants? If not, why not?
Even if we suggest that the (spirit) mentioned after (commands) not to mean (a revelation), still we can argue that it means (Gabriel) ….. And the meaning would be " He sends down the Angels with Gabriel by His command upon whom He wishes of His servants"…. if not, why not?
2- The Spirit as Gabriel.
Gabriel could be called the spirit, the trustworthy spirit, the holy spirit....
Holy Quran 16:102
SAY: The Holy Spirit has brought it down as Truth from your Lord to brace those who believe and as guidance and good news for Muslims.
Holy Quran2:97
Say:"Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel,then know that He has brought it down for your heart with God’s permission, to confirm what came before it and as guidance and good news for believers.
قل نزله روح القدس من ربك بالحق ليثبت الذين آمنوا وهدى وبشرى للمسلمين Holy Quran 16:102
قل من كان عدوا لجبريل فإنه نزله على قلبك بإذن الله مصدقا لما بين يديه وهدى وبشرى للمؤمنين Holy Quran2:97
also ,Quran 26:193 The Faithful Spirit has brought it down into your heart, so that you may be a Warner. 70:4 The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years:78:38 on the day when the angels and the Spirit stand arrayed, they speak not, saving him whom the Beneficent alloweth and who speaketh right.97:4The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.19:17 So she took a veil from them; then We sent to her Our spirit, and there appeared to her a well-made man.
Christian: I disagree with you and think that the reference all to an entity other than Gabriel... It is stated that Allah used more than one messenger to bring down the Quran: Quran 77:5 By those who bring down the Reminder.
According to the Quran, the Reminder refers to the revelation given to the prophets and to Muhammad.Quran 16:2 Also 40:15 He sends down the Angels with the Spirit (Ruh) by His command upon whom He wishes of His servants.
Egyptian:
Muslim: First: Though the revelation given to Mohamed was called (reminder), Holy Quran 15:6 And they said: "O you upon whom the Reminder has been sent down, you are crazy."
not every reminder is synonymous with the reminder revealed to Mohamed (pbuh)…The folk of Noah had their own reminder Holy Quran 7:63 Are you surprised that a Reminder should come to you from your Lord through one of your own men, so He may warn you and you will do your duty, and in order that you may receive mercy?" The folk of Aad had their own reminder as well, Holy Quran7:69 Are you surprised that a Reminder from your Lord should come to you through one of your own men, so that He may warn you?The torah was a reminder too... Holy Quran 21:105 We have written in the Psalms following the Reminder; "My honorable servants shall inherit the earth."
Second: Holy Quran 16:2 also 40:15 He sends down the Angels with the Spirit (Ruh) by His command upon whom He wishes of His servants.
The angels are sent down to selected servants, not servant ……..Nothing would force the meaning of the verse that a group of angels are sent to each single servant.
Third : Even if the meaning that a group of angels are sent to each single servant, we don’t have any clue that Mohamed peace be upon him had it this way …. Both the Quranic verses and the authentic sunnah affirmed that it was a specific Angel who revealed the Quran ……..
With the hundred of hadiths mention the revelation of the Quran, there is not one instance that mention any other entity whether An Angel or whatever, that taught Mohamed peace be upon him the revelation ,the only angel whose name is mentioned with regards to the revelation of the Qur’an is Gabriel…proving the argument that Allah used more than one messenger to bring down the Quran, is an argument from silence ….
Your theory that the holy spirit (whom you imagine to be different from Gabriel) brought down some of the Quran is mere a conjecture till you tell us when and where such holy spirit, that is distinct from Gabriel, taught Mohamed even a verse from the Quran......Verse 2:97 ,that says clearly ,that it is Gabriel who brought the Quran down for Mohamed’s heart ,Will remain a reference that Gabriel brought down all of the Qur'an …till a qualifier,modifier be provided to render the meaning as Gabriel brought some of the Quran down for Mohamed’s heart...
Egyptian:
Christian: In verses 78:38 On the day when the angels and the Spirit stand arrayed, they speak not, saving him whom the Beneficent alloweth and who speaketh right. and 70:4 The angels and the spirit ascend unto him in a Day the measure whereof is (as) fifty thousand years:, and 97:4 The angels and the Spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees.
Also in Hadith"Narrated Aisha: The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) used to pronounce while bowing and prostrating himself: All Glorious, all Holy, Lord of the Angels and the Spirit." (Sahih Muslim, Book 4, Number 0987)
Make a distinction between the angels (of which Gabriel is obviously one) with the Spirit. This supports that Gabriel is not the Spirit. Had the Spirit been Gabriel there would be no need to distinguish him from the angels.
Muslim: In Arabic language it is not unusual to specify part of a whole group to emphasize the significance of that part. e.g.. in 55:68 God talks about fruits, dates and pomegranate to emphasize the last two kinds of fruits. [55:68] In them are fruits, date palms, and pomegranate. In 2:238 God talks about Salat and the middle salat to emphasize its significance of the middle salat.
and
66:4 If the two of you repent to God, then your hearts have listened. But if you band together against him, then God is his ally, and so are Gabriel and the righteous believers. Also, the Angels are his helpers.
This verse mentions the Angel Gabriel separately from the other angels, but we know that he is An Angel himslef.
the same idea in another verse
2:98 Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and apostles, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith.
This verse mentions the Angel Gabriel and the Angel Michael separately from the other angels, but we know that they are angels themselves.
Christian: How do you know that Gabriel is an angel?
We have numerous super Authentic Hadiths, tell us, not only who Gabriel is (An Angel) but also lots of other things about him ….
Some proofs, in brief …
Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet said to Gabriel, "What prevents you from visiting us more often than you visit us now?" So there was revealed:-- 'And we (angels) descend not but by the command of your Lord. To Him belongs what is before us and what is behind us...'(19.64) (Bukhari Book #60, Hadith #255)
Narrated Aisha: …………….
The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) pitched a tent for him in the mosque and would inquire after him being in close proximity. When he returned from the Ditch and laid down his arms and took a bath, the angel Gabriel appeared to him…………………. (Muslim Book #019, Hadith #4370)
Narrated Ibn Abbas:................................Whenever Gabriel came to Allah's Apostle ' he would keep quiet (and listen), and when the angel left, the Prophet would recite that revelation as Allah promised him. (Bukhari Book #60, Hadith #451)
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: Allah's Apostle was the most generous of all the people, and he used to reach the peak in generosity in the month of Ramadan when Gabriel met him. Gabriel used to meet him every night of Ramadan to teach him the Qur'an. Allah's Apostle was the most generous person, even more generous than the strong uncontrollable wind (in readiness and haste to do charitable deeds). (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 1, Number 5: ) etc …. etc…. etc…
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