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My 2nd study "trinity in the Holy Quran, A muslim - christian dialogue"
Egyptian:
Christian: Accepting the idea that the spirit is Gabriel (who is a creature), would contradict other Quranic verses that ascribe the following divine qualities to the Spirit:
1- A Life giver:
Qur'an 15:29 Also 32:6-9 , 38:72 So, when I have made him and have breathed into him of My Spirit, do ye fall down, prostrating yourselves unto him. These passages indicate that after fashioning man God gave him life by breathing his Spirit into him….. With the same linguistic structure, in verse 21:91 Mary received the breath of life (life giving spirit) and conceived Jesus: 21:91 "And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and we made her and her son a sign for all peoples." We are also told that God’s Spirit appeared to Mary in the form of a man: 19:17 she chose to be secluded from them. We sent her Our spirit, who presented himself to her as a full-grown human being.
These passages indicate that the Spirit is not a force but a divine personality
Muslim: Only a dogmatic and close minded who would consider every mention in the Quran, of the word spirit (Ruh) ,has to be the holy spirit, or all the instances the word spirit mentioned, has to be typically in meaning ….
First:
Barbara F Stowasser Professor of Arabic & Islamic Studies CENTER FOR CONTEMPORARY ARAB STUDIES wrote in the Encyclopaedia of the Quran
:
"In its role as conveyor of revelation, the spirit is identified as Gabriel (q.v.; Jibrīl, q 2:97). In Mary’s story, the spirit is the life-creating force of, or from, God. Qurānic commentary, however, has consistently differentiated between “our spirit sent to Mary in the form of a well proportioned man†(q 19:17) and “our spirit [of ] which we breathed into Mary†(q 21:91; 66:12), identifying the former with the angel Gabriel and the latter with the life substance with which God (directly) awakened Adam to life from clay, just as it (directly) awakened Jesus to life in Mary’s womb . The classical interpreters established that Gabriel was a mean, or instrument, of God’s creative power, whence they linked his agency with God’s breathing, or blowing, of his spirit into Mary by developing the theme of Gabriel’s blowing at Mary’s garment or person ."
Second: Assuming the spirit to be some other entity than Gabriel, still it has to be a created entity ……The idea of the divine to be manifested in the flesh is clearly condemned in the Quran … The idea of a created messenger from God that took the human form goes very well with the idea " that is mentioned in Quran and sunna" of Angels, especially Gabriel, taking the human form in earthly mission "….
Third: In Islam, Calling Allah a spirit is a gross error ....
-Jesus is called a spirit in the Quran ,yet we know that he is a creature ,according to the Quran.
- Ron Rhodes,president of Reasoning from the Scriptures Ministries,wrote:
"Muslims assert, “The suggestion that God is a spirit implies He is a created being, like an angel.†Undeniably, Islam says that God is not a spirit; otherwise, one would imply he is part of the created realm, like the angels. On the Contrary, the Bible says that God is Spirit (Jn 4:24; Is 31:3). "
- “the Qur’an uses the word ruh twenty times, but each time the word is understood to refer to a created being that has a subtle body.†Similarly, “Angels and jinn have such a subtle body capable of penetrating a coarse body.†The indications are therefore that “to say that God is a spirit is understood to mean that he is a created being. †Muslim & Christian at Table by McDowell & Zaka (1999:94)
Egyptian:
- Evidently, “The Muslim’s concept of God conflicts with the deity and personality of the Holy Spirit (1) the concept of the absolute unity of God precludes the possibility of the Holy Spirit being God. (2) The personality of the Holy Spirit, and indeed the possibility of knowing God in a personal way through the indwelling Holy Spirit, is incompatible with the Muslim’s concept of Allah's absolute transcendence.†“Since man is a servant (‘abd) of Allah, he does not look for a close communion with God through the Spirit of adoption. The very idea of the Spirit indwelling the believer is incompatible with Islamic ideologyâ€. “Only the Sufis (mystics) aim at union with God, but for them this is achieved by man’s striving upward and not by the coming down of the Holy Spirit to dwell in their hearts.†The holy spirit in the Qur'an : an assessment from a Christian perspective. By Judy Tao Shih-Ching.
Christian: When Muhammad was asked concerning the Spirit he didn’t say he was Gabriel.And they ask you concerning the Ruh (the spirit). Say: "The Ruh (the spirit) is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord...
Muslim:
1-Most commentators suggest the (spirit) was asking about here ,is the (soul) that is based on clues eg; (And they ask you concerning the Ruh.) Al-`Awfi reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "This was when the Jews said to the Prophet , `Tell us about the Ruh and how the Ruh will be punished that is in the body - for the Ruh is something about which only Allah knows, and there was no revelation concerning it.' He did not answer them at all, then Jibril came to him and said: (Say:The Ruh (the spirit) is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord. And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given only a little.'') So the Prophet told them about that, and they said, `Who told you this' He said, (Jibril brought it to me from Allah.) They said, `By Allah, no one has told you that except our enemy ﴿i.e., Jibril. Then Allah revealed (Say "Whoever is an enemy to Jibril (let him die in his fury), for indeed he has brought it (this Qur'an) down to your heart by Allah's permission, confirming what came before it.)'' ﴿2:97
2-Even if we ignore the narrations , the verse simply mentions the spirit(which has varied meanings) without revealing anything about its nature.So what are you looking for? If the spirit is God ,God could have revealed that in the verse (or other verses)in simple clear words.
Egyptian:
The opposite is true ,we have several hints affirming the spirit as a creature..
A- The spirit not only is said to have A God, but also in complete submission to him....Just like angels (or being an angel) it won’t dare to move without God’s permission "The Night of Power is better than a thousand months. The angels and the Spirit descend therein by the permission of their God, with all decrees. Peace until the rising of the Dawn." 97:3-5
B - The spirit can’t even speak without God’s permission: "Lord of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, the Beneficent; with Whom none can argue. On the Day when the angels and the Spirit stand arrayed, they speak not, saving him whom the Beneficent allows and who speaks right. That is the True Day. So whoso will should seek recourse unto his Lord?" 78:38
C. The spirit can take the human form: "Then We sent unto her (Mary) Our spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a well built man.
D- He is called a messenger from God, not God:
Holy Quran 19:18She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God-fearing. He said: I am only a Messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son.
The incarnation for an earthly mission and be called a messenger fits perfectly with the angels. Holy Qur'an 6:9 And (even] if We had appointed an angel as Our message-bearer, We would certainly have made him [appear as] a man .
E- In the Qur'an ,Jesus is described as a spirit from Allah ,yet we know that he is created, not divine by any sense ,according to the Qur'an.
Christian: In verse 58:22:" He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (forever).
In order for the Spirit to be able to strengthen believers everywhere implies that the Spirit is omnipresent. Yet only God is omnipresent which essentially means that the Spirit is God.
Muslim : who told you that in order for a force to support the believers to be divine in essence? the holy spirit is supposed to provide extraordinary help in special situations not for everyone ,everywhere,every time ....... who would assume that Gabriel needs to be omnipresent in order to support some selected believers in some selected times ?!!.....
Egyptian:
Mary, belong to the Trinity?
Christian: what about the understanding that the trinity that the Quran is concerned about is , father, son, marry?
quran 5:119, reads: “And behold! God will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, “Worship me and my mother as gods instead of God� He will say: “Glory to thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say).
Muslim: Nothing better than understanding the Qur'an by the Qur'an.....we need to check the verses with that use the same expression the expression is :
TO TAKE-WORSHIP اتخذوا (X) , INSTEAD-IN DEROGATION OF من دون (ALLAH) .....
The formula (to take ....instead) is used inside and outside the context of worship.... Eg;
Holy Quran 27:55 "You are taking the men out of lust instead of the women! No, you are an ignorant people!"
Does the verse suggest those men as taking men for sexual pleasure besides women? Not at all ....The meaning is though they know the normal object for sexual intercourse (women) they approached the abnormal object(men) instead
The formula is used inside the context of worship in numerous instances
Holy Quran 27:24 I found her and her folk prostrating herself to the sun—instead of God—and Satan made to appear pleasing to them their actions and barred them from the way so they are not truly guided.
It seems that those folk could have thought the sun as God .
Holy Quran 39:38 If you should ask them who created Heaven and Earth, they would say: "God." SAY: "Have you (all) ever seen what you appeal to instead of God [Alone]? If God wanted [to cause] me any trouble, would such females ever remove His trouble? Or if He wants some mercy for me, will such females hold back His mercy?" SAY: "God is [the Means] by Which I reckon; on Him do the reliant rely."
Holy Quran 10:18 They worship, instead of Allah, what can neither harm them nor help them, saying, ´These are our intercessors with Allah.´ Say: ´Would you inform Allah of something about which He does not know either in the heavens or on the earth?´ May He be glorified and exalted above what they associate with Him!
Holy Quran 36:23 Should I adopt other gods instead of Him? If the Mercy-giving should want any harm to me, their intercession would never help me out in any way nor would they rescue me:
Holy Quran 39:43 Or do they adopt intercessors instead of God? SAY: "Even though they do not control a thing and cannot even reason?"
we note that the previous objects of worship are (1) called gods . (2) their worshipers didn't believe in them as God the creator ,they just intercede.
Egyptian:
the same words (to take instead) are used in:
Holy Quran 9:31 They have taken their learned men and their monks for their lords instead of God. So have they taken the Messiah, son of Mary, although they were commanded to worship only the One God. There is no deity but He. He is far above whatever they set up as His partners!
Have you seen,what the verse saying ?
1- your intentions should be consistent with your actions that counts ,it is not what you think you are doing but what you REALLY do.
2- veneration, asking for intercession etc . is considered worship in Islam even if the object of veneration is not believed to be divine…. It is enough that you direct any form of worship that is due to God alone for anyone, anything to turn him, her ,it to be god
2- though the objects of worshiped mentioned in the same verse viewed differently by their worshipers (Jesus as divine,saints are not) yet that is not the focus of the verse, the focus is on the act of worship itself, that is why it says " they were commanded to worship only the One God" ...
the same way with verse
Holy Quran 5:116 And as Allah said, "O Isa son of Maryam, (Jesus son of Mary) did you say to mankind, "Take me and my mother to your selves as two gods, apart fromAllah '?" He said, All Extolment be to You! In no way is it for me to say what I have no right to.
The verse is just one example of, the thought to be divine(Jesus) and the thought to be not divine yet could be intercessor and be venerated (Mary),be taken as gods ..
another verse
Holy Quran 3:64 SAY: "People of the Book, [let us] rally to a common formula to be binding on both us and you, that we shall worship only God [Alone] a associate nothing else with Him, nor shall any of us take on others as lords instead of God." If they should turn away, then say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."
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