Author Topic: Why does the Quran tell Christians/Jews to judge by the Gospel/Torah?  (Read 13712 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Isubmit2Allah

  • Full Member
  • ***
    • View Profile
Re: Why does the Quran tell Christians/Jews to judge by the Gospel/Torah?
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2015, 10:24:26 AM »
You said:
However Words of God written in books or on piece of paper can be altered.

By the statement you made, you have made Allah powerless to preserve His Word that has been written down.

Christians do not believe that God is powerless to protect His Word that has been written down.
There is a difference between men authoring their own texts, and the original God's revealed text. Anybody can write a few verses down, and say that it was from God. The same with the Bible.

Offline AhmadFarooq

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Why does the Quran tell Christians/Jews to judge by the Gospel/Torah?
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2015, 10:25:42 AM »
Unfortunately I can't say I've got much knowledge about Christian scripture. Regarding its preservation most of what I know is derived from the debate of well-known Christian scripture and textual scholar Dr. Bart Ehrman.

"Bart Ehrman & Daniel Wallace Debate Original NT Lost"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyABBZe5o68

According to Bart Ehrman:
No complete manuscripts of the Bible from the first, second and third centuries exist.
From early second century only 1 manuscript of the Bible, which has a few verses written on it, has survived.
5,500 manuscripts of the Bible survive, of which 94 % are from the 9th century.

In short what Daniel Wallace said (similar to what you are affirming here) was that due to the vast number of manuscripts that are present and the hundreds of thousands of variances (most are insignificant) in them is a proof that we can reach the original New Testament text.

However, Bart Ehrman is skeptical of this concept or even convinced against it. He seems to believe that the probability of the loss of the original New Testament text is very high by giving an example that it would have taken only a single inaccurate or malicious copier of the New Testament in the first century to corrupt all the manuscripts that are presently available.

I completely agree that hundreds of thousands of the differences in the manuscripts are mostly spelling mistakes and such, as Bart Ehrman admits but according to him some of these differences are significant enough to question core Christian concepts.

In another debate that I was once listening to, the example of 1 John 5:7-8 was given. According to my limited knowledge, this was the verse which most explicitly confirmed trinity in the King James version of the Bible; but, according to new information obtained, in the 1980s its words had to be changed and the present version doesn't appear to be affirming trinity.

It is possible that the present version of the Bible might be the accurate one, I say this because of the "Christian Vs. Muslim" debates that I've listened to, both debaters use the Bible as a source of information. Christians interpret a particular verse a certain way, Muslims another, which is something Muslims apparently have common with nontrinitarian sects of Christianity.

However, as Bart Ehrman argues there is no way of knowing that. There is a reason that textual criticism is still going on, because there is still some work left. Maybe in the future we will be able to obtain the original words of the Bible and even prove that but presently (according to Bart Ehrman) we cannot be sure.

Regards.

Offline thetruthseeker

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • View Profile
Re: Why does the Quran tell Christians/Jews to judge by the Gospel/Torah?
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2015, 11:31:05 AM »
Unfortunately I can't say I've got much knowledge about Christian scripture. Regarding its preservation most of what I know is derived from the debate of well-known Christian scripture and textual scholar Dr. Bart Ehrman.

"Bart Ehrman & Daniel Wallace Debate Original NT Lost"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyABBZe5o68

According to Bart Ehrman:
No complete manuscripts of the Bible from the first, second and third centuries exist.
From early second century only 1 manuscript of the Bible, which has a few verses written on it, has survived.
5,500 manuscripts of the Bible survive, of which 94 % are from the 9th century.

In short what Daniel Wallace said (similar to what you are affirming here) was that due to the vast number of manuscripts that are present and the hundreds of thousands of variances (most are insignificant) in them is a proof that we can reach the original New Testament text.

However, Bart Ehrman is skeptical of this concept or even convinced against it. He seems to believe that the probability of the loss of the original New Testament text is very high by giving an example that it would have taken only a single inaccurate or malicious copier of the New Testament in the first century to corrupt all the manuscripts that are presently available.

I completely agree that hundreds of thousands of the differences in the manuscripts are mostly spelling mistakes and such, as Bart Ehrman admits but according to him some of these differences are significant enough to question core Christian concepts.

In another debate that I was once listening to, the example of 1 John 5:7-8 was given. According to my limited knowledge, this was the verse which most explicitly confirmed trinity in the King James version of the Bible; but, according to new information obtained, in the 1980s its words had to be changed and the present version doesn't appear to be affirming trinity.

It is possible that the present version of the Bible might be the accurate one, I say this because of the "Christian Vs. Muslim" debates that I've listened to, both debaters use the Bible as a source of information. Christians interpret a particular verse a certain way, Muslims another, which is something Muslims apparently have common with nontrinitarian sects of Christianity.

However, as Bart Ehrman argues there is no way of knowing that. There is a reason that textual criticism is still going on, because there is still some work left. Maybe in the future we will be able to obtain the original words of the Bible and even prove that but presently (according to Bart Ehrman) we cannot be sure.

Regards.

Thank you for taking time to write this all out! I have heard of Bart Ehrman and I have seen a debate between him and David Wallace (I can't remember if it's the link you provided or not) and it was very informative.

In regards to 1 John 5:7-8, David Wallace wrote:

"Finally, regarding 1 John 5.7–8, virtually no modern translation of the Bible includes the “Trinitarian formula,” since scholars for centuries have recognized it as added later. Only a few very late manuscripts have the verses. One wonders why this passage is even discussed in Ehrman’s book. The only reason seems to be to fuel doubts. The passage made its way into our Bibles through political pressure, appearing for the first time in 1522, even though scholars then and now knew that it was not authentic. The early church did not know of this text, yet the Council of Constantinople in AD 381 explicitly affirmed the Trinity! How could they do this without the benefit of a text that didn’t get into the Greek NT for another millennium? Constantinople’s statement was not written in a vacuum: the early church put into a theological formulation what they got out of the NT.

A distinction needs to be made here: just because a particular verse does not affirm a cherished doctrine does not mean that that doctrine cannot be found in the NT. In this case, anyone with an understanding of the healthy patristic debates over the Godhead knows that the early church arrived at their understanding from an examination of the data in the NT. The Trinitarian formula found in late manuscripts of 1 John 5.7 only summarized what they found; it did not inform their declarations.
"

Thank you for mentioning that there are non-Trinitarian Christians. Some Muslims (an other non-Christians) assume that Christians all interpret the scriptures the same way. The Christians that believe in the Trinity do not believe in 3 gods, but 1 God who exists in 3 distinct persons (Father, Son, Spirit). I have been meaning to watch a debate between Trinitarian Christians and non-Trinitarian Christians as I would like to see the defense from both sides. I am presently a Trinitarian Christian, but I always ask God for the truth and that may mean I have to change how I believe on something. I have done this in Eschatology and I am very thankful God opened my eyes to the deception that was in most of the Christian teaching on Eschatology today.

Thanks again for your comment! :)

Offline submit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Why does the Quran tell Christians/Jews to judge by the Gospel/Torah?
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2015, 04:55:28 AM »
Further, we can take note of the following verses that demonstrate God’s plan to preserve His Word. In Matthew 5:18, Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from  the Law until everything is accomplished.” In this verse Jesus declared that not even the smallest stroke of a letter would pass away until all is accomplished. He couldn’t make that promise unless He was sure that God would preserve His Word. Jesus also said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away” (Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33). Jesus again affirms that God’s Word will not pass away. God’s Word will remain and accomplish that which God has planned.

The prophet Isaiah, through the power of the Holy Spirit, stated that God’s Word would remain forever. “The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever” (Isaiah 40:8). This was reaffirmed in the New Testament when Peter quoted the same passage and referred to it as “the word that was preached to you” (1 Peter 1:24-25). Neither Isaiah nor Peter could make such statements without the understanding of God’s preservation of Scripture.

In Psalms 12:6-7 it says, "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

Shall the pen of scribes made lie onto Israelite Scripture (not Greek scriptures) .  Yhwh sent His prophets to restore Israelite scriptures.

If you read carefully, earthly material doesn't last, written pages doesnt last. But the Words of God remain because the attribute of God is eternal. Thus His Words are eternal. Nothing to do with written books. (as reflected in Isa 40:8)

As for Psalm 12:7 the word them =/=  Words of God. Referring to a group from  verse 5.

Offline thetruthseeker

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • View Profile
Re: Why does the Quran tell Christians/Jews to judge by the Gospel/Torah?
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2015, 05:26:57 AM »
Further, we can take note of the following verses that demonstrate God’s plan to preserve His Word. In Matthew 5:18, Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from  the Law until everything is accomplished.” In this verse Jesus declared that not even the smallest stroke of a letter would pass away until all is accomplished. He couldn’t make that promise unless He was sure that God would preserve His Word. Jesus also said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away” (Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 21:33). Jesus again affirms that God’s Word will not pass away. God’s Word will remain and accomplish that which God has planned.

The prophet Isaiah, through the power of the Holy Spirit, stated that God’s Word would remain forever. “The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever” (Isaiah 40:8). This was reaffirmed in the New Testament when Peter quoted the same passage and referred to it as “the word that was preached to you” (1 Peter 1:24-25). Neither Isaiah nor Peter could make such statements without the understanding of God’s preservation of Scripture.

In Psalms 12:6-7 it says, "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

Shall the pen of scribes made lie onto Israelite Scripture (not Greek scriptures) .  Yhwh sent His prophets to restore Israelite scriptures.

If you read carefully, earthly material doesn't last, written pages doesnt last. But the Words of God remain because the attribute of God is eternal. Thus His Words are eternal. Nothing to do with written books. (as reflected in Isa 40:8)

As for Psalm 12:7 the word them =/=  Words of God. Referring to a group from  verse 5.

Which is why copies have been made for future generations. How wonderful that God had scribes copy the original documents so that we could read them thousands of years later. He is able to protect the inspired words and revelations that were written down and that's exactly what He has done through the generations.

I guess you and I will never agree on this because you believe in the Quran and I believe in the Bible, so it is best that we just agree to disagree on this matter.

Thanks for the dialogue! :)

Offline submit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Re: Why does the Quran tell Christians/Jews to judge by the Gospel/Torah?
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2015, 07:04:07 AM »
When you mention original document, as in the case of Greek books. The so called original Greek documents were not made during the time of prophet Jesus (pbuh). But after the claim by Paul that he met Jesus in the desert. And so the narrations from the Hellenistic followers were written down. But there were too many Greek narrations that only in 4th century, they were able to select which narrations and letters to be deemed cannon/inspired.

As for Israelite scriptures, they were written during the time of revelations sent down from God to the prophets.

Offline QuranSearchCom

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Islam is the Divine Truth!
    • View Profile
Re: Why does the Quran tell Christians/Jews to judge by the Gospel/Torah?
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2015, 04:31:29 PM »
As'salamu Alaikum Muslim brothers and sisters and everyone else,

Did you know that MUSLIMS was the early believers' title according to the Aramaic sources?

Also, did you know that Greek wasn't even the first language in Palestine nor in Northern Arabia?

Also, did you know that there is a great deal of evidence that Arabic manuscripts among the Jews did exist in Arabia, and the Jews burnt them after they were kicked out by the Muslims from the Holy Lands?

Also, did you know that 7 Roman emperors burnt most of the early Christians' writings, and almost all of the ones written in the Middle East?

Visit this link to see detailed discussion about this at:

www.answering-christianity.com/muslims_and_arabic_language_during_jesus_times.htm

I will make the article much neater.  But this is a detailed debbate that I had with Christians over these topics.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline thetruthseeker

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • View Profile
Re: Why does the Quran tell Christians/Jews to judge by the Gospel/Torah?
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2015, 07:54:08 AM »
As'salamu Alaikum Muslim brothers and sisters and everyone else,

Did you know that MUSLIMS was the early believers' title according to the Aramaic sources?

Also, did you know that Greek wasn't even the first language in Palestine nor in Northern Arabia?

Also, did you know that there is a great deal of evidence that Arabic manuscripts among the Jews did exist in Arabia, and the Jews burnt them after they were kicked out by the Muslims from the Holy Lands?

Also, did you know that 7 Roman emperors burnt most of the early Christians' writings, and almost all of the ones written in the Middle East?

Visit this link to see detailed discussion about this at:

www.answering-christianity.com/muslims_and_arabic_language_during_jesus_times.htm

I will make the article much neater.  But this is a detailed debbate that I had with Christians over these topics.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Thank God they did not burn them all!

Offline QuranSearchCom

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Islam is the Divine Truth!
    • View Profile
Re: Why does the Quran tell Christians/Jews to judge by the Gospel/Torah?
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2015, 08:58:34 AM »
Thank God they did not burn them all!

But when we find in the current canonized Bible references about the Prophet of Arabia (the Servant who will come from Arabia WITH THE NEW COVENANT) in both the OT and NT, then I have no reason to doubt Islam, my brother thetruthseeker.  Please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/predict.htm

Welcome to the board.  May Allah Almighty open your heart to Islam.  Ameen.  Please always feel free to post all of your thoughts and concerns here.  We would love to clarify any confusion or concern that you may have.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline thetruthseeker

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • View Profile
Re: Why does the Quran tell Christians/Jews to judge by the Gospel/Torah?
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2015, 11:37:36 AM »
Thank God they did not burn them all!

But when we find in the current canonized Bible references about the Prophet of Arabia (the Servant who will come from Arabia WITH THE NEW COVENANT) in both the OT and NT, then I have no reason to doubt Islam, my brother thetruthseeker.  Please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/predict.htm

Welcome to the board.  May Allah Almighty open your heart to Islam.  Ameen.  Please always feel free to post all of your thoughts and concerns here.  We would love to clarify any confusion or concern that you may have.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

May I have those references please? Just list the verses that indicate this. Thanks!

Offline QuranSearchCom

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Islam is the Divine Truth!
    • View Profile
Re: Why does the Quran tell Christians/Jews to judge by the Gospel/Torah?
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2015, 12:32:35 PM »
The passages are too many and too big to post here.  Please visit the following links, which are linked in the one that I already gave above:

www.answering-christianity.com/Debates%20Database%20Doc%20File.doc
www.answering-christianity.com/debate_templates.htm
  (Click on the PPT files that are about Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him)

www.answering-christianity.com/sons_of_god_in_bible_and_quran_debate.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/convert_christians.htm


Also visit the following debate:
www.answering-christianity.com/does_muhammad_exist_in_the_bible_june_16_2013.wmv

And again, visit the main link:
www.answering-christianity.com/predict.htm

And for the reader also, visit the following link to see the Glorious Quran's Overwhelming and Stunning Scientific Miracles:
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline thetruthseeker

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
    • View Profile
Re: Why does the Quran tell Christians/Jews to judge by the Gospel/Torah?
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2015, 02:01:47 PM »
The passages are too many and too big to post here.  Please visit the following links, which are linked in the one that I already gave above:

www.answering-christianity.com/Debates%20Database%20Doc%20File.doc
www.answering-christianity.com/debate_templates.htm
  (Click on the PPT files that are about Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him)

www.answering-christianity.com/sons_of_god_in_bible_and_quran_debate.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/convert_christians.htm


Also visit the following debate:
www.answering-christianity.com/does_muhammad_exist_in_the_bible_june_16_2013.wmv

And again, visit the main link:
www.answering-christianity.com/predict.htm

And for the reader also, visit the following link to see the Glorious Quran's Overwhelming and Stunning Scientific Miracles:
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

No problem. How about you give me a 3 that I can look up. That shouldn't take too long.

Also, I noticed you quote Matthew 24, but that has already been fulfilled.

 

What's new | A-Z | Discuss & Blog | Youtube