it is not reasonable to think that Allah wants to send a message to those turn out to be niggardly, that they are going to be substituted with some other people looks physically diferent !!!
Stop with these stupid conspiracies.
The Prophet Adam (May Allah send peace upon him) was NOT created in a womb.
"[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, “Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay."(Qur’an 38:71)
Allah created Adam in Jannah, and then by the will of Allah, Adam and Hawwa ate from the tree which they were forbidden to do so and were sent down to earth as a punishment. We didn't evolve or any crap related to that.
Lol, you find it hard to believe that Allah created as in that way?
Sorry, i believe that Allah is all powerful and can do everything.
We descend from The Prophet Adam, not monkeys.
Adam did NOT evolve or what ever, Adam was created in Jannah at first. He was created by clay of the earth that the angels when to gather from the earth.
Everything is CREATED by water because in the beginning it was Allah and water.
Don't try to look for loopholes in the Qur'an etc, we are supposed to understand it in the same way the companions understood it. The same with ahadith, we cannot make what is halal, haraam and do the opposite, (i'm not saying you are btw).
Adam did not evolve or any crap related to that, he was an entirely new creation.
When Allah creates something, he simply says Kun Fayakoon.
"Be and it is".
I'm offended by your wizard reference etc.
(Quran 2:30) And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority."
Alhamdulillah, it's good you are open minded, BUT Adam was created in Jannah, NOT on earth.
There is absolutely NO EVIDENCE to support that Adam was created on earth and was "sent" to Jannah. Don't come up with your own assumptions with no evidence, this is very dangerous.
Allah created Adam in Jannah, and when Allah gave life to him, he went to give salaams to the angels etc, then at a later period Iblees and other angels were commanded to bow to him.
"We said: 'O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression.' (The Noble Quran, 2:35)".
It was AFTER Satan refused to bow and he tempted them to eat from the tree that they were expelled from Jannah:
"We said: 'Get ye down all from here: And if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein.' (The Noble Quran, 2:38-39)"
Allah created Adam in Jannah, and from Adam's rib did Allah create Hawwa. It was the decree/plan of Allah all along for him to eat from the tree which resulted in him (Adam) from being expelled from Jannah.
Abu Hurairah narrated that Allah's Messenger said: "Adam and Moses argued with each other. Moses said to Adam: Your sin expelled you from Paradise. Adam said to him: 'You are Moses whom Allah selected as His messenger and as the one to whom He spoke directly. Yet you blame me for a thing which had already been written in my fate before my Creation?' Allah's Prophet Muhammad said twice: "So, Adam outclassed Moses."
Umar Ibn Al-Khattab also narrated that Prophet Muhammad said: "Moses said: 'My Lord! May I see Adam who removed us and himself from the Paradise?' So Allah made him see Adam, and he said to him: 'Are you Adam?' Adam said: 'Yes.' And he said: 'Were you the one in whom Allah breathed His spirit, and before whom He bowed His angels, and to whom He taught the names of all things?' Adam answered: 'Yes.' So Moses said: 'What made you remove us and yourself from Paradise?' Adam said unto him: 'Who are you?' He said: 'I am Moses.' Adam said: 'So you are Moses the prophet of the Children of Israel. Were you the one Allah spoke to directly?' Moses answered: 'Yes.' Adam said: 'Why do you blame me for a matter which Allah had predestined?"' So Allah's Prophet Muhammad said twice. "Adam outclassed Moses."
We are all descendants of Adam. And Adam was not created in an evolutionary process, he is a separate creation. Every single human on earth today and throughout history has descended from Adam, EXCEPT Jesus, he has no linage.
We do not descend from anyone but Adam.
(Quran 6.133) If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to WHATEVER He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people.
Note: The Quran specifically uses the word "Whatever" or "What" ("ma" in Arabic ما). This Arabic word "ma" cannot refer to humans; this word is strictly reserved for non-humans (the Arabic word that does refer to humans is "man من", meaning "who" or "whoever" but it was not used here).
we need to visit "to substitude x instead of M " and "to make x succesor of M"...
The first noble verse we should visit is:
Holy quran 9:38 O you who believe! What (excuse) have you that when it is said to you: Go forth in Allah's way, you should incline heavily to earth; are you contented with this world's life instead of the hereafter? But the provision of this world's life compared with the hereafter is but little.If you do not go forth, He will chastise you with a painful chastisement and bring in your place a people other than you, and you will do Him no harm; and Allah has power over all things.
-Who are the humans whom Allah warned to be punished and substituted? The believers during the prophet's era.
-what is the punishment? not mentioned but could be a curse from Allah to be humilated in the world ,and not necessarily to be eradicated.
what is the substitution? could be any other folk who will be more faithful and ready to do the task of supporting the prophet peace be upon him....
nothing in the verse to suggest that those who might substitute them are their seed or other creatures succeed...
now to the next verse...
Muhammad 47:38 Behold, [O believers,] it is you who are called upon to spend freely in God’s cause: but [even] among you are such as turn out to be niggardly! And yet, he who acts niggardly [in God’s cause] is but niggardly towards his own self: for God is indeed self-sufficient, whereas you stand in need [of Him]; and if you turn away [from Him], He will cause other people to take your place, and they will not be the likes of you! and Allah has power over all things......
the noble verse is similar to the previous one... a warning to those who acts niggardly,to be substituted of other folk who will not be likes of them but more generous and zealous for Islam....
It is not a threat of eradication ,neither other creatures substituting them...
it is not reasonable to think that Allah wants to send a message to those turn out to be niggardly, that they are going to be substituted with some other people looks physically diferent !!!
clear??
now with our next noble verse...
Bro Mclinkin .. I haven't finished all the verses related yet ,and I'm about to answer your question in the conclusion ..
and will be pleased to read any notes..
the next similar verse:
Holy Quran 6:28 Behold, they [who are unmindful of God] love this fleeting life, and leave behind them [all thought of] a grief-laden Day.[They will not admit to themselves that] it We who have created them and strengthened their make - and [that] if it be Our will We can replace them entirely with others of their kind.
.........
now with verses with broader meaning :
Holy quran 14:19 Have you not seen how God has really created Heaven and Earth? If He so wished, He would remove you and bring on a fresh creation.
Holy quran 4:133 If He so wills, He can cause you, O mankind, to disappear, and bring forth other beings [in your stead]: for God has indeed the power to do this.
in the previous verses Allah the almighty affims that he can eradicate the humans and brings forth others ...
no meaning should be conjectured beyond what I mentioned....
.....................................................
our next noble verse
If you note in the previous two noble verses, Allah afirms his ability to make new creation ,but not through evolving from previous humans ,but after eradicating the whole humanity ...so no space here to impose evolution on the noble verses....
......................
the next noble verses :
from changing the nature of your existence and bringing you into being [anew] in a manner [as yet] unknown to you.
Holy quran 56:61Have you ever considered what you emit? Did you create it, or are We its Creators? We have ordained death for (all of) you; no one will get ahead to prevent Us from changing your attributes, and transforming you into something you would never recognize.
the words in bold were understood by some tafsir scholars as:
"in replacing you with others the same as you and re-forming you in a way you know nothing about. "
If the verse could be understood as a threaten then the first meaning is more sound........
and the meaning would be a threat to them of transforming their physical appearance to be like Apes or pigs... it could also mean ,Allah is able to change both the appearance and the behaviour of them ,as he wishes..
Whatever meaning you adhere to ,there is nothing in the verse that suggests that Allah did so, neither in past or future....
Allah's ability to do something ,doesn't neccesarily requires ,that he already did it.
our next noble verse
(Quran 2:30) And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority."
First : successor here was always understood as succesor to jin on one hand ,or a successor - representative of Allah on Earth, judging by his law..
the second meaning is strong ,as it is supported by similar verse:
Quran 2:30 O David, We have made you a successor on Earth. Therefore, you shall judge among the people with truth...
Second : even if we assume for the sake of argument that Adam was a successor to other humans, what is there in the verse to suggest that Adam evolved from those Ape like humans ,instead of Adam was a succesor to them after they were eradicated totally from Earth??
to be concluded next post
(Quran 6.133) If He wills, he can do away with you and give succession after you to WHATEVER He wills, just as He produced you from the descendants of another people.
Note: The Quran specifically uses the word "Whatever" or "What" ("ma" in Arabic ما). This Arabic word "ma" cannot refer to humans; this word is strictly reserved for non-humans (the Arabic word that does refer to humans is "man من", meaning "who" or "whoever" but it was not used here).
1- The Arabic word "ما ma" can refer to humans , example:
Holy Quran 4:3 But if ye fear that ye cannot do justice between orphans, then marry what "مَا ma" seems good to you of women.
2- the Arabic word " قوم Qawm" which is translated as "people,folk" in the verse ,is a strong clue that we are descendant of humans , as the word "qawm" never used in Arabic as a reference to animals, or any non-humans.....
I just wanted to let you know that before I start, that I am doing nothing but searching for the truth. I strive for intellectual honesty, and this has brought me in life so far.
The problem with the interpretation of the Quran the same way the companions understood it, is that, the Quran is meant for all times and places, not just them.
That The prophet Muhammad and his companions have to fight off the oppressors so that Islam could spread! If everyone that believed did not go forth with keeping Islam alive. Allah has threatened them that he will punish them and replace them with another people. That means humanity has failed in spreading Allah’s message by their own choice!
then on the earth there are no beleivers...
If The only believers at the time (Muslims) failed themselves, Allah will punish them and replace mankind with another people.
If all the believers become disbelievers and wrong-doers.
I don't know why would anyone try so hard to prove that he's a descendant of apes just to please the ones who made such a ridiculous theory which science keeps proving wrong day after day .
We are not descendants of apes, we share a common ancestor with themSo instead of saying that apes are our ancestors , they are actually our cousins ? Yeah , much difference .
The descendant nature is very gradual, it makes Allah an even more ingenious creator than we thought ever before. This mechanism of creation is absolutely breath-taking.I'll say it flat out : This mechanism of evolution is 100% myth that isn't supported by other than hoaxes and lies . And it clearly goes against Islam which says that Allah created our father Adam - peace upon him - from mud by his hands in his current form ( The form of father Adam and not Allah . To make sure there is no misunderstanding ) .
Further, we have extremely compelling evidence of evolution and it's never been proven wrong. In fact, all the evidence we have point to evolution. Currently, scientists are getting closer to finding living proof of Macro-evolution despite all of the evidence we have.It seems that I was right . You're astonished with what the west has of advancement and therefore you don't want to defy them but at the same time you don't want to defy Islam so you try to gather between gold and sand . Tell you what ? Drop by here and I assure you that you'll be shocked to know that what they've been feeding you about evolution is but a huge lie .
Denying evolution is an embarrassment to be honest. I studied evolution, and I would hesitate to call it a theory. Denying evolution would be like those Christians who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old and was literally created in 6 24 hour days. They are an embarrassment to the world. We do not want Islam to be an embarrassment ESPECIALLY if our own SCRIPTURE supports the idea of a gradual diverse process behind creation that involved descent from human-like creatures!
QuoteWe are not descendants of apes, we share a common ancestor with themSo instead of saying that apes are our ancestors , they are actually our cousins ? Yeah , much difference .QuoteThe descendant nature is very gradual, it makes Allah an even more ingenious creator than we thought ever before. This mechanism of creation is absolutely breath-taking.I'll say it flat out : This mechanism of evolution is 100% myth that isn't supported by other than hoaxes and lies . And it clearly goes against Islam which says that Allah created our father Adam - peace upon him - from mud by his hands in his current form ( The form of father Adam and not Allah . To make sure there is no misunderstanding ) .
And if you really don't agree with the meaning of these signs of Quran and the sayings of prophet Muhammad , would you try to build a false miracle upon a lie which is proven to be a lie day after day ? Nobody said there are no miracles in the noble Quran but trying to come up with one out of any and everything is just a farce .QuoteFurther, we have extremely compelling evidence of evolution and it's never been proven wrong. In fact, all the evidence we have point to evolution. Currently, scientists are getting closer to finding living proof of Macro-evolution despite all of the evidence we have.It seems that I was right . You're astonished with what the west has of advancement and therefore you don't want to defy them but at the same time you don't want to defy Islam so you try to gather between gold and sand . Tell you what ? Drop by here and I assure you that you'll be shocked to know that what they've been feeding you about evolution is but a huge lie .
Denying evolution is an embarrassment to be honest. I studied evolution, and I would hesitate to call it a theory. Denying evolution would be like those Christians who believe the Earth is 6,000 years old and was literally created in 6 24 hour days. They are an embarrassment to the world. We do not want Islam to be an embarrassment ESPECIALLY if our own SCRIPTURE supports the idea of a gradual diverse process behind creation that involved descent from human-like creatures!
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/forum.php?
Just write "تطور" in the search box and choose any post . Or does it make you feel insecure ?
Assalamualykum
Brother, you should realize that evolution is based on a weak philosophy. It is the idea that the only way to establish truth is from science.
This fails because science can't explain how life came from non life, how humans are conscious, what came before the big bang,etc...
The mechanism of evolution is not a myth. Is there a piece of evidence that tells you it is a myth?Piece ? There are mountains of evidence proving it wrong and showing scandals of hoaxes done in order to prove it be Atheists and non-Atheists . Come to us where I told you and we'll show you that we have "Pieces" of evidence .
Allah says in the Quran he created Adam from an extract of clay and it says that Allah has done it with his hands. Does Allah have hands? Of course not! Its metaphoric. It means Allah has created man from his handiwork and he is comparing it to molding something with clay with hands. Something that has a process!It seems I'm dealing with a retreat (Mu'tazil) ! Something for another time which we'll be more than glad to debate you about there .
Now, what's even more interesting about that is that we actually believe that the first cell LITERALLY came from wet-earth (mud/clay). We say it is improbable the first cell came from the deep ocean because things are too dilute there to support life with the necessary molecules. So even science confirms the Quran here.I couldn't care what you think . Evolution in all of its forms which keep changing whenever evidence appears proving it wrong are just wrong .
Quran 32:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.Improper explanation . Allah perfected what he created . How do you come out of this with the idea that it means evolution ?! When I say that I perfected this picture I have been drawing does it mean it evolved after I was done with it ?!
^So Allah made everything he created better. This is hinting at a process of creation.
Quran 32:8 THEN He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.Improper as well . The beginning of humans were creating our father Adam of clay . After that , there wasn't direct creation of clay anymore . It was through the marriage of males and females . Again , how do you come out of this with evolution ?!
^AFTER creation from clay, our posterity comes from an extract of sperm. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.
Quran 32:9 THEN He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.Writing words in capital doesn't help . Here , after the child start forming an angle is sent to blow a soul into him and then Allah gives this child sight and hearing and heart . Yet again , how do you come out of this with evolution ?!
^AFTER sexual reproduction, we were proportioned into the right way and we have developed a higher consciousness (that's what the verse is implying).
Compare this to the idea that we came from lower forms of life. We were literally created from wet earth (clay), and then after a while sexual reproduction developed. And through the process of sexual reproduction, we were proportioned and given consciousness. The process of sexual reproduction creates even more variation and makes evolution even more successful.If everyone followed this line of thinking then we should tolerate those who say we were created by aliens from outer space .
Is there any specific thing about evolution that you have a problem with? Its not a huge lie at all, what hoaxes do you speak about? How about my personal testimony that I have seen micro-evolution live and we are about to exhibit macro-evolution.Everything about evolution makes a problem to me and every honest person . First of all , it contradicts Islam . Secondly it's not supported by any kind of proper evidence unless you really believe what you wrote is fit to be called evidence . Thirdly , it is supported by loads of lies and hoaxes and the most famous are the belt-down man and Nebraska-man . Look it up .
How about all of the:All of this follows the example of the one who said Jellyfish are not deadly because they're cute . So , a guy finds a skull of a monkey , that means we and apes are cousins ?! I told you , drop why and we'll show you one by one that all what they claim as evidence is nothing more than a load of lies .
1.) Fossil Evidence
2.) Genetic evidence
3.) Molecular evidence
4.) Evidence from proteins
5.) Vestigial and atavistic organs
6.) Embryology
7.) Biogeography
8.) Homology
9.) Bacteriology
10.) exhibitions of macro-evolution:
a. Two strains of fruit flies lost the ability to interbreed and produce fertile offspring in the lab over a 4-year span ... i.e. they became two new species. (Easily repeated experiment.)Truth be told , I'm not a scientist and I don't know much about biology . But you don't need to be a genius to see a farce . One by one , examine these points and see for yourself if they are actually true in the first place and not just a lie or if they are not what they seem to be .
b. A new plant species (a type of fireweed), created by a doubling of the chromosome count from the original stock (Mosquin, 1967).
c. Multiple species of the house mouse unique to the Faeroe Islands occurred within 250 years of introduction of a foundation species on the island.
d. Formation of 5 new species of cichlid fishes that have formed in a single lake within 4,000 years of introduction of a parent species.
^This is very strong evidence and we haven't even scratched the surface!
Brother please study the science, imagine just disregarding Allah's method of creation and what's said in the Quran? Imagine the insult to Allah. Allah encourages us to study. And many times in the Quran, shows us that mankind, which includes Adam was created from ALAQ. Allah is never short of words:YOU study . Having different explanations of something that might hold multiple meanings is one thing . But bringing something out of another based on irrational interruption is completely unacceptable . And YOU are the one who needs to imagine the insult to God for saying that such things .
Piece ? There are mountains of evidence proving it wrong and showing scandals of hoaxes done in order to prove it be Atheists and non-Atheists . Come to us where I told you and we'll show you that we have "Pieces" of evidence
I couldn't care what you think . Evolution in all of its forms which keep changing whenever evidence appears proving it wrong are just wrong .
So yes, Allah has ultimately created mankind from clay. I will show you a series of verses to state my point:
QuoteQuran 32:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.Improper explanation . Allah perfected what he created . How do you come out of this with the idea that it means evolution ?! When I say that I perfected this picture I have been drawing does it mean it evolved after I was done with it ?!
^So Allah made everything he created better. This is hinting at a process of creation.
QuoteQuran 32:8 THEN He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.Improper as well . The beginning of humans were creating our father Adam of clay . After that , there wasn't direct creation of clay anymore . It was through the marriage of males and females . Again , how do you come out of this with evolution ?!
^AFTER creation from clay, our posterity comes from an extract of sperm. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.
Writing words in capital doesn't help . Here , after the child start forming an angle is sent to blow a soul into him and then Allah gives this child sight and hearing and heart . Yet again , how do you come out of this with evolution ?!
QuoteCompare this to the idea that we came from lower forms of life. We were literally created from wet earth (clay), and then after a while sexual reproduction developed. And through the process of sexual reproduction, we were proportioned and given consciousness. The process of sexual reproduction creates even more variation and makes evolution even more successful.If everyone followed this line of thinking then we should tolerate those who say we were created by aliens from outer space .
Everything about evolution makes a problem to me and every honest person . First of all , it contradicts Islam . Secondly it's not supported by any kind of proper evidence unless you really believe what you wrote is fit to be called evidence . Thirdly , it is supported by loads of lies and hoaxes and the most famous are the belt-down man and Nebraska-man . Look it up .
All of this follows the example of the one who said Jellyfish are not deadly because they're cute . So , a guy finds a skull of a monkey , that means we and apes are cousins ?! I told you , drop why and we'll show you one by one that all what they claim as evidence is nothing more than a load of lies .
Truth be told , I'm not a scientist and I don't know much about biology . But you don't need to be a genius to see a farce . One by one , examine these points and see for yourself if they are actually true in the first place and not just a lie or if they are not what they seem to be .
YOU study . Having different explanations of something that might hold multiple meanings is one thing . But bringing something out of another based on irrational interruption is completely unacceptable . And YOU are the one who needs to imagine the insult to God for saying that such things .We're waiting .
Assalamualykum
Brother, I believe that evolution of animals is possible I just haven't found the evidence for evolution to be very convincing.
Evolution is just one interpretation of the scientific data proofs you have presented. For example, evolutionists see the genetic, molecular, embryological, and protein similarities as proof of evolution. While a creationist can easily argue that god would use the same blueprints to make all of his creation.
Also, a note on "vestigial organs" just because we don't know what the purpose of an organ doesn't necessarily mean that it is vestigial. For example scientists use to believe that the appendix was a vestigial organ, but they recently discovered that it's purpose is to store good bacteria.
you cited fossil evidence as one of your proofs but I would argue that the fossil evidence isn't nessecarily in favor of evolution because of the absence of transitional fossils.
I am unaware of all the evidence having hoaxes, please show me one. This sounds like unsubstantiated wishful thinking. [/quote
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/science-of-natural-history/the-scientific-process/piltdown-man-hoax/piltdown-hoax-revealed/index.htmlQuoteIn November 1953 Piltdown Man hit the headlines again. This time revealed as a hoax. The so-called 'missing link' between humans and apes now became a sensation as a sophisticated and infamous scientific fraud.
In the 40 years since the original 1912 announcement of Piltdown Man, increasing numbers of ancient human fossils had been discovered, most notably from Africa, China and Indonesia, but also from Asia and Europe.
None of these discoveries showed the large brain and ape-like jaw of Piltdown Man. Instead they suggested that the jaws and teeth became human-like before the evolution of a large brain.
As the discrepancies became too many to ignore and as new dating technology emerged, investigations on the Piltdown fossils began again.
At the Natural History Museum in the late 1940s, Kenneth Oakley ran a series of fluorine tests that made use of fluorine's tendency to accumulate in calcium-containing organic matter such as bones and teeth. Oakley discovered the fossils were probably less than 50,000 years old, not nearly old enough to be from a species with such ape-like features.
Following this, the biological anthropologist Joseph Weiner and human anatomist Wilfrid Le Gros Clark, both from Oxford University, worked with Oakley to test the Piltdown fossils even more stringently.
Their results proved that the skull and jaw fragments actually came from 2 different species, a human and an ape, probably an orangutan. Scratches on the surfaces of the teeth, visible under the microscope, revealed that the teeth had been filed down to make them look human. They also discovered that most of the finds from the Piltdown site had been artificially stained to match the local gravels.
The conclusion: Piltdown Man was an audacious fake and a sophisticated scientific fraud.QuoteIf you perfected the picture you are drawing, that means the picture you are drawing had a process of perfection. If Allah perfected human beings, that means the process of creation of the human being involved betterment! This is compatible with the idea of evolution.No , it has nothing to do with evolution . Indeed , the creation of our father Adam went through stages . But to say these stages are the so called "Theory" of evolution is a crime in the right of respected human beings ! There was a stage sand , a stage of mud , and a stage of clay . The meaning of perfecting something you make doesn't have to mean that it had a process according to language (That's in Arabic , I don't know about English) and if we assume that it is , then they are in no way related to evolution .QuoteYou would have to disagree with yourself once you see the next verse. Intellectual honesty is key! After making our posterity from semen, Allah THEN proportioned us and put something spiritual in us and gave us consciousness.I did read what's after it and I know what you're aiming at . Again , this in no way mean evolution . Indeed , we are forming through a process while in the wombs of our mothers . After that , Allah sends an angel to blow a spirit within us . What does that have to do with the theory of apes ? And please , you're not one to talk about intellectual honesty .QuoteYou completely disregarded WHY I wrote the word 'then' in capital letters. This verse is showing a sequence of events,. Not an instant process as you presume. Notice how Quran 32:9 says 'HIM', who is him? Mankind--more specifically--Adam. Adam was proportioned and through sexual reproduction, we became proportioned.Correct me if wrong . The first one says that Allah perfected what he created which means that whichever he created was done in a perfect way . No evolution . The same one says that the beginning of creating mankind was of mud . Here , we might have two explanations :
1 - The meant "Human" is our father Adam . In that case , his creation was of mud . No evolution . After that , the lineage after Adam - peace upon him - was through sexual intercourse of husband and wife . No evolution . Then , this sperm in the womb of the mother is formed by God's will and then a spirit is blown in it . Again , no evolution .
2 - The meant "Human" is mankind in general . In this case , the first stage means our father Adam - peace upon him - himself whom was created of mud . And then , the lineage of mankind was through menial water (Sperm) . Again , this water was formed and then given a soul by Allah . Yet again , no evolution .QuotePlease, show us where evolution contradicts Islam. If there is one verse in the Quran that contradicts evolution, I, as an honest person, will believe the Quran does not support evolution. Show me that one verse that contradicts and you won this debate.Honestly , I don't know if there is a crystal clear verse in Quran which no one can interrupt in any other way . There are sayings of the prophet peace upon him doing that . However , seeing that you deny the sayings of the prophet because you accuse the science of Hadith , there is nothing I can bring you .QuoteEvolution is not based on just skulls of hominids. If it was, I would agree with you. It is based on genetic evidence as well!No difference . So , apes have DNA somewhat similar to humans , that makes us their cousins ? If so , we should be the cousins of bananas as well . I'll put it in another way , there is a building in Egypt and another similar one in Morocco , do they share an ancestor ? I could accept this from my little cousin who was 4 years old and thought that the house he saw was the father of his parents' house , but from grown ups ?QuoteI don't claim to be an all-knowing scientist, but I do have extensive understanding of evolution. I don't see a farce at all. I have examined the evidence of evolution, it is absolutely compelling. In some years, i guarantee you that evolution would be like belief in the earth being round, if it is not already like that.Some people say the same thing about Islam you know "It's a fact that Islam promotes hate the same as the fact that Earth is round" . So what's the point ? Evidence is what matters . And when we examine evidence , then may we judge .
And now , let's see yet more verses you interrupt in some strange ways .QuoteBut why do I hear so much excuse making? Isn't the first verse that ALlah has sent to Muhammad (pbuh) literally showing that mankind was created from Alaq (embryo). That does not exclude Adam as Adam is part of mankind, and Allah is never short of words.To understand this , you need two things :
(Quran 96:1-2) Recite in the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clinging substance
1 - Understanding of language
2 - Logical understanding
As for language , if you knew , saying something in general doesn't mean there are no exceptions . Father Adam is this exception . And when we talk about logic , a man told you to go le-right and then told you to go right and even pointed to your and his right , can you still say that maybe he wants you to go left ? We have sayings of the prophet peace upon him allowing no room for misunderstanding . And if you don't believe them then it's your business .QuoteHow about the verses that show that we were created in diverse stages?Does embryology ring any bell ?
(Quran 71:14) God created you in stagesQuote(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.
We grew FROM the Earth (molecules in Earth are we are made of) a growth. That means we came from the earth as a growth. Not from an instant creation in paradise. We had to GROW from the Earth. Something involving a processQuote(Quran 71:17) And Allah has caused you to grow from the earth a [progressive] growth.Ok , how on Earth does this have to do anything with evolution ? In the explanations we see multiple interruption among them are the meaning that father Adam was made to grow of this Earth . Another is that we grow with what we feed on of plants . Aside from any explanation : How do you come out of this with evolution ?!
We grew FROM the Earth (molecules in Earth are we are made of) a growth. That means we came from the earth as a growth. Not from an instant creation in paradise. We had to GROW from the Earth. Something involving a processQuoteI ask again, why all the excuse making? Why the refusal to deny reality and the Quran's saying? That is very dishonest and an embarrassment to Islam.The true embarrassment is when someone doesn't trust his religion and so he decides to change whatever needed of it so that it matches what others desire as you demonstrated in denying Hadith .QuoteI think we all have to agree on 3 things (from just this post I wrote)None .
1.) Creation was not instant according to the Quran
2.) Humanity was created from the Earth as a growth that is progressive
3.) Adam was an embryo just like all of usQuoteBoth of yall need to chill out their is no need to be so rude to each other we are all Muslims that are disagreeing on minor issues.Just to clear it out , there is a difference between arguing about some practical things - as was the case with some scholars - and arguing about something that leaves no please of misunderstanding . For example , among the scholars , some have said that covering the face for women is obligation , some said it is indeed better but it isn't obligation . No problem in that and everyone respects the other's opinion . But what do you say when someone says flat out that the veil -Any veil - is an invention of Saudia Arabia ?! You see what I mean ? Differences are accepted , but there are differences which can never be tolerated as is the case with those who claim Ali - Allah be please of him - is a God . But you're right , I was wrong . There is no need to be rude .
I actually can't you seriously at all, the way you twist Qur'an interpretations to suit your crappy beliefs regarding evolution.
ADAM IS NOT A DESCENDANT OF ANYONE.
Surah Al-Imran verses 3:33-34 is NOT saying that Adam is a descendant. Allah is mentioning that Noah, Abraham and Imran are descendants of one another.
Adam was created in Jannah before Allah gave him life. Then when Iblees rebelled, and Adam ate from the tree, they were sent to earth. It was all of Allah's deecree.
There is no stupid evolution process where Adam evolves from another creation.
You are doing something very dangerous, trying to interpret Qur'an ayaah to suit your own needs is a very bad sin.
Again Surah Nuh [17:17] in context is from the DUST of the earth.
When Allah created Adam, He sent down Angels to gather soil from the earth, he didn't evolve Adam. Adam was created in Jannah.
The following destroys your whole stupid beliefs regarding evolution and the Prophet Adam:
"When Allah had fashioned Adam in Paradise, He left him as he willed to leave him. Then Iblees went around him to see what he was. And when he found him hollow, he recognised he has been created with an uncontrolled disposition. "(Muslim)
Now READ it again:
When Allah HAD FASHIONED ADAM IN JANNAH.
HE LEFT HIM AS HE WILLED TO LEAVE HIM.
THEN IBLEES WENT AROUND HIM TO SEE WHAT HE WAS.
Adam wasn't even living here, he wasn't given life yet.
"[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, “Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay. So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration.†(Qur’an 38:71-72)
Allah created Adam from clay.
He was FASHIONED in Jannah.
HE WAS CREATED IN JANNAH.
There is no stupid evolution process where Adam evolves from another, no. Just no.
Adam is NOT a descendant of anything else either.
Stop trying to become a hero and create your own interpretations, this is how sects/divisions come up in themselves, this is a very bad mistake.
I'm done here.
No , it has nothing to do with evolution . Indeed , the creation of our father Adam went through stages . But to say these stages are the so called "Theory" of evolution is a crime in the right of respected human beings ! There was a stage sand , a stage of mud , and a stage of clay . The meaning of perfecting something you make doesn't have to mean that it had a process according to language (That's in Arabic , I don't know about English) and if we assume that it is , then they are in no way related to evolution
I did read what's after it and I know what you're aiming at . Again , this in no way mean evolution . Indeed , we are forming through a process while in the wombs of our mothers . After that , Allah sends an angel to blow a spirit within us . What does that have to do with the theory of apes ? And please , you're not one to talk about intellectual honesty
Correct me if wrong . The first one says that Allah perfected what he created which means that whichever he created was done in a perfect way . No evolution . The same one says that the beginning of creating mankind was of mud . Here , we might have two explanations :
1 - The meant "Human" is our father Adam . In that case , his creation was of mud . No evolution . After that , the lineage after Adam - peace upon him - was through sexual intercourse of husband and wife . No evolution . Then , this sperm in the womb of the mother is formed by God's will and then a spirit is blown in it . Again , no evolution .
2 - The meant "Human" is mankind in general . In this case , the first stage means our father Adam - peace upon him - himself whom was created of mud . And then , the lineage of mankind was through menial water (Sperm) . Again , this water was formed and then given a soul by Allah . Yet again , no evolution.
Honestly , I don't know if there is a crystal clear verse in Quran which no one can interrupt in any other way . There are sayings of the prophet peace upon him doing that . However , seeing that you deny the sayings of the prophet because you accuse the science of Hadith , there is nothing I can bring you
No difference . So , apes have DNA somewhat similar to humans , that makes us their cousins ? If so , we should be the cousins of bananas as well . I'll put it in another way , there is a building in Egypt and another similar one in Morocco , do they share an ancestor ? I could accept this from my little cousin who was 4 years old and thought that the house he saw was the father of his parents' house , but from grown ups?
To understand this , you need two things :
1 - Understanding of language
2 - Logical understanding
As for language , if you knew , saying something in general doesn't mean there are no exceptions . Father Adam is this exception . And when we talk about logic , a man told you to go le-right and then told you to go right and even pointed to your and his right , can you still say that maybe he wants you to go left ? We have sayings of the prophet peace upon him allowing no room for misunderstanding . And if you don't believe them then it's your business .
Does embryology ring any bell ?
Ok , how on Earth does this have to do anything with evolution ? In the explanations we see multiple interruption among them are the meaning that father Adam was made to grow of this Earth . Another is that we grow with what we feed on of plants . Aside from any explanation : How do you come out of this with evolution ?!
The true embarrassment is when someone doesn't trust his religion and so he decides to change whatever needed of it so that it matches what others desire as you demonstrated in denying Hadith
Just to clear it out , there is a difference between arguing about some practical things - as was the case with some scholars - and arguing about something that leaves no please of misunderstanding . For example , among the scholars , some have said that covering the face for women is obligation , some said it is indeed better but it isn't obligation . No problem in that and everyone respects the other's opinion . But what do you say when someone says flat out that the veil -Any veil - is an invention of Saudia Arabia ?! You see what I mean ? Differences are accepted , but there are differences which can never be tolerated as is the case with those who claim Ali - Allah be please of him - is a God . But you're right , I was wrong . There is no need to be rude .
Assalamualykum.
Brother, Allah says:
]"It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur’an). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkâm (commandments), Al-Farâ'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings exceptAllah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord. And none receive admonition except men of understanding)" [Suraat Al-E-Imran/3:7]
So, none except Allah knows the real meaning of the Verses of the Quran. Its obvious that everyone's interpretation will vary. But whatever interpretation it is, it must be logical and proved. And most importantly, the interpretation must not contradict with other verses of the Quran.
Take Care.
salam alaikum
Brothers ..... I don't think the thread is about the validity of the well established scientific theory of evolution ,but whether the quran supports the concept of Adam preceded by other creation that he was evolved from ......
May Allah bless you....
Beware of Fallacy of equivocation;
http://quranscientificerror.blogspot.com/2013/08/re-quran-scientific-errors-on-evolution.html
none except Allah knows the real meaning of the Verses of the Quran.
the issue doesn't merit a heated debate.... neither merit a debate ,really..I disagree . Tolerating different opinions about things which can be interrupted differently is a thing . But opposing clear signs of Quran or sayings of the prophet is not something to be tolerated . That is the reason why all those ignorant individuals show on TV and say things like Jews and Christians will enter paradise along with Muslims !
though I disagree with his approach to the matter ,still it is not a matter would get him outside the fold of islam ......Nobody said so .
Quran 3:33-34: "Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of 'Imran over the worlds. DESCENDANTS, some of them from others. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing"My God ! How do you come up with these ideas ?!
^Read it again please, it clearly calls Adam, Noah, Family of Abraham, Imran descendants from others! Allah is never short of words! Allah chose Adam, over who? And then Allah says Adam was a descendant. If Adam was a descendant and he is the first one to be like us (human) then it must logically follow that who he came from is not like-us. So am I twisting any verse or am I just reading the verse and stating what it clearly says? So am I interpreting the Quran to suit my desires, or are you?
Now, personally I don't like using hadiths to support a claim based on the history they have of corruption.I was right indeed . I'm dealing with someone abandoning half of Islam . And you are absolutely not someone to say that Hadith is corrupted .
but when a hadith goes against the Quranic teaching, I am sorry-I side with the Quran.Contradiction only exists in your mind . Before jumping the gun , think "What's the explanation of this ? Maybe I misunderstood" .
Okay, I am glad you recognize that Adam was created in stages and it wasn't an instant process in paradise. That was the point I was trying to make.I really despise people putting words in my mouth . Father Adam WAS created to live in paradise and then sin and repent . Wither it's the real paradise or a paradise on Earth doesn't matter here . The story is in the Quran which you claim to follow .
We see this through ALL of creation.If you mean creatures forming in the wombs - or eggs - of their mothers then yes . As for the myth that a dinosaur became a bird because it was trying to catch flies , I told you already .
Where did you get the stage of sand/mud/clay from?From the sayings of the prophet peace upon him AND Quran which you claim to follow alone .
Now 'perfection' is not a semantics issue.I don't care if you have problems understanding it in language or logic . I already explained .
Quran 32:7 Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.God perfected what he created WHEN he created it . But you want to force the idea that it MUST mean evolving from something to another .
^So Allah made everything he created better. And creation from clay is actually recognized in abiogenesis. We actually think clay brought forth the necessary conditions for the first cell to form.
Quran 32:8 THEN He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.I'll just repeat :
^After BEGINNING creation from clay, our posterity comes from an extract of semen. This is hinting at sexual reproduction forming.
Correct me if wrong . The first one says that Allah perfected what he created which means that whichever he created was done in a perfect way . No evolution . The same one says that the beginning of creating mankind was of mud . Here , we might have two explanations :
1 - The meant "Human" is our father Adam . In that case , his creation was of mud . No evolution . After that , the lineage after Adam - peace upon him - was through sexual intercourse of husband and wife . No evolution . Then , this sperm in the womb of the mother is formed by God's will and then a spirit is blown in it . Again , no evolution .
2 - The meant "Human" is mankind in general . In this case , the first stage means our father Adam - peace upon him - himself whom was created of mud . And then , the lineage of mankind was through menial water (Sperm) . Again , this water was formed and then given a soul by Allah . Yet again , no evolution .
Can this verse be any more clear? But, instead you choose to twist it so that it shows that Adam/mankind was not proportioned after the creation sexual reproduction? Instead you say that the breathing of the soul is referring to Adam's children even though the verse says 'HIM' (meaning Adam) rather than 'you'?No one is twisting the meanings other than you . And no one is ignoring what the other says except you ! If you're so weak at language and logic then that's your problem and not ours . If we really go on with you and say that the verses may have different meanings then the sayings of the prophets are the bottom line because they explain in detail the creation of father Adam . Again , if you accuse Hadith of corruption while you know 0 information about it , that's your problem . Another funny thing is : People talk to me about not forcing my opinion on others - And this is nothing to have an opinion about - while you're trying to force yours on us . You don't even say "This might be an explanation" . No , you're saying "This is the ONLY explanation" .
Do you know why verse 32:9 is referring to Adam? Because it mirrors this verse (15:28-29) which is clearly referring to Adam, so 'HIM' is referring to Adam being proportioned and THEN consequently 'you' get hearing and consciousness.Again , your ignorance is your own problem . And God himself answers you here :
it is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them].
2.) If the Quran was talking about Adam's progeny, why didn't the Quran say "THEM" or "you" instead of 'him'? "and then we proportioned THEM/you (the progeny of Adam)", The Quran said no such thing. So you must accept that it is referring to the first one to take on the final human shape.YET again , your ignorance of language is your own problem . The verse says "Human" and that's called a noun of a type . Meaning that "Human" here means everything named human . And saying "Him" doesn't contradicts a thing except for those who see contradictions in any and everything just for the sake of showing off .
Secondly, the verse says "perfected", أَحْسَنَ, which means to make Good. That means Allah's creation was made to be good from its original through a process.Already explained .
3- The verse meant that Adam was created through a process of perfection that initially involved clay. (the verse says BEGAN the creation of Adam from clay-signifying a process).Alright , I'll explain again for reminding benefits the believers . The verse says Allah perfected what he created . You want to force the meaning that it MUST mean evolving things after creating them . But ones who know a few things about Arabic OR English know that it isn't necessary . Even when I was a kid of 8 years old and used to read this sign , I used to think "It means that God created the creatures perfectly" and no idea of evolution ever hit someone I know . THEN - and you think writing in capital makes a difference - Allah says that he started creating human out of mud . Here , there are two possible meanings for the word "Human" . The first is that it means Adam - peace upon him - and in that case evolution has no room . God started forming father Adam out of mud , and the story is mentioned in Hadith which you despise so much because you don't know the first thing about it . The other meaning is that "Human" is a "Type noun" which means all mankind . In this case , the beginning of creating man means the first one being Adam peace upon him . Now , when we move to the next sign it says that Allah - after starting forming human out of mud - made his lineage نسل made of water that is sperm . Meaning that God made human reproduce through sexual intercourse . Let's take both meanings again . If the human here is meant to be father Adam then it means that God made his lineage made of sperm which is true with father Adam and mother Eve both AND their children after them . If I take the other meaning , it's also correct because the lineage of mankind - after the first stage of the first man made of mud - is made of sperm . Let's move to the next . It says that Allah blew of his created soul into this human and gave him sight and hearing and hearts . Let's take both meanings again . If we take the meaning that it's the entire human race , it means the formation of the child in the womb as I said . If it means father Adam then it means the same . Done . No evolution .
So science (something you refuse to accept as valid) tells us that the first cell was formed through wet earth.Trying to make me look bad through saying I don't accept science does nothing . What I don't accept is bigoted lies supported by more lies . To put it simply , you'll clutch to any straw left as long as it means evolution is true and I can't see why .
But I agree, those verses can be interpreted in the way you said, but considering other verses in the Quran and science, it absolutely should not!If I hear more abusing of the word "Science" I'll lose it . I keep telling you that science keeps stepping on the remains of this myth day after another but it seems I'm talking to myself .
Imagine I say: "The computer has a hard-drive".Not related . I said it before , we have the sayings of the prophet peace upon him and they are more than enough for every Muslim who respects Islam .
One valid interpretation is that the computer has a strong/hard drive to do work.
Another valid interpretation is that the computer has a physical substance called a hard-drive.
^They are both valid translations. But one of them is the more probable one. Apply this to what we talked about above ^
By the way, i am not completely a Hadith rejector. I believe there could be some truth in them, but they are very likely to be corrupted considering my studies of them.I SWEAR to God that you're completely ignorant of any and everything in this science . Our last conversation showed it . And you need to understand that seeing something on the internet doesn't make you a scholar . Just because you read an article or two doesn't mean you know about it . And going further on will show yet more ignorance which would make one facepalm .
If you ever played a game back in grade school, its like the whisper game, the teacher promised everyone a lolipop if we could whisper what she says to the next person in a chain and see if the last whisper is the same as the original teacher's whisper. Although we all wanted that lolipop, we tried to listen carefully and did our best. In the end, the last whisper is so different from the original teacher's whisper even though we all had good intentions. In the last whisper, there is some truth in it, but it concealed much detail, exaggerated soem and students added their own itnerpreations to the whisper. Would it be far fetched to say the same things happened in hadiths? I don't think so.I would have slapped you for this insolence if you were in front of me . I tell you about a science which scholars spend years learning and gathering and you think making a farce of this joke deems it invalid ?!
Brother, if you put all the evidence together, you see evolution. You just need a further study of it. I don't want this to turn into a scientific debate.Why not ? You're so sure of it that you call denying it an embarrassment to Islam . The truth is , you were forced to study this in school and so you don't dare question it as if it was a gospel . I told you to drop by here :
Brother this is excuse making on your part and twisting verses to suit your desires. The verse is so clear. Combine other verses with this one and you will see. But you don't even have to. The verse by itself says that MANKIND was created from Alaq. No further excuse making necessary.Uh-huh . And I'M the one being rude and offensive ? And twisting the meanings to suit my desire ? What desire ? The desire that we were created already perfectly and there was no need for a goddamned myth as evolution ?
Why do I get accused of interpreting verses to suit my desires? Didn't you just do that right there?
Again where did you get plants from?Because it's mentioned in this sign o headache bringer !! For the thousand time , if you know nothing about language then it's your problem . No book of explanation says a thing about this doctrine called "Evolution" . And I as a simple commoner can give a more rational explanation which is that we were made to grow out of the soil of Earth as said before . The problem is with the ones who make this myth a religion to follow . And if you look at the meaning of "إنبات" here :
I trust my religion, I'm not changing the meaning of verses, you are :). I am presenting them, and you are denying what they clearly say in context.After all this displaying of ignorance of Quran , Hadith , language , and logic , you're not one to accuse others of changing the meanings of something .
But from my understanding of hadiths, I am VERY skeptical.Be skeptical as much as you like when you're buying tomatoes . We're here talking about a whole science . Someone with absolutely no knowledge of it is the last to criticize it . You want me to see all this evidence you talk about . You want me to "Learn" . And now you think a rotten article on internet makes you able to take or let whatever you want of Islam ?
An important concept to understand is that the Quran was meant for all times, so it must support:Fantasy my foot ! An insult to me is something I can tolerate , but insulting the companions and entire nations is unforgivable !
1.) 7th century fantasy
2.) Our beliefs
This is a really good verse and it proves that old translations of verses (those carried out by 7th century hadiths) do not have to be the right translations or interpretations and that Quranic verses have huge and mountainous meaning in them, that only Allah knows the true translation.
That shouldn't be directed at me..... I don't believe that the Quran teaches Adam as descended from other creation.... neither I will deny the strong clues for evolutionAn advice , Egyptian : Drop by as well and we'll have a talk about what you really think is a strong evidence of evolution .
My God ! How do you come up with these ideas ?!
Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Ibrahim - peace upon them all - from the rest of mankind . Meaning they are above others for they were chosen to be prophets and deliver the message of Allah to people . And in the second sign Allah says they are descendants FROM EACH OTHER . The order is Adam , Noah , and Ibrahim peace upon them all
I was right indeed . I'm dealing with someone abandoning half of Islam . And you are absolutely not someone to say that Hadith is corrupted
I really despise people putting words in my mouth . Father Adam WAS created to live in paradise and then sin and repent . Wither it's the real paradise or a paradise on Earth doesn't matter here . The story is in the Quran which you claim to follow.
From the sayings of the prophet peace upon him AND Quran which you claim to follow alone
God perfected what he created WHEN he created it . But you want to force the idea that it MUST mean evolving from something to another.
Correct me if wrong . The first one says that Allah perfected what he created which means that whichever he created was done in a perfect way . No evolution . The same one says that the beginning of creating mankind was of mud . Here , we might have two explanations :
1 - The meant "Human" is our father Adam . In that case , his creation was of mud . No evolution . After that , the lineage after Adam - peace upon him - was through sexual intercourse of husband and wife . No evolution . Then , this sperm in the womb of the mother is formed by God's will and then a spirit is blown in it . Again , no evolution .
2 - The meant "Human" is mankind in general . In this case , the first stage means our father Adam - peace upon him - himself whom was created of mud . And then , the lineage of mankind was through menial water (Sperm) . Again , this water was formed and then given a soul by Allah . Yet again , no evolution .
No one is twisting the meanings other than you . And no one is ignoring what the other says except you ! If you're so weak at language and logic then that's your problem and not ours . If we really go on with you and say that the verses may have different meanings then the sayings of the prophets are the bottom line because they explain in detail the creation of father Adam . Again , if you accuse Hadith of corruption while you know 0 information about it , that's your problem . Another funny thing is : People talk to me about not forcing my opinion on others - And this is nothing to have an opinion about - while you're trying to force yours on us . You don't even say "This might be an explanation" . No , you're saying "This is the ONLY explanation"
YET again , your ignorance of language is your own problem . The verse says "Human" and that's called a noun of a type . Meaning that "Human" here means everything named human . And saying "Him" doesn't contradicts a thing except for those who see contradictions in any and everything just for the sake of showing off .
Alright , I'll explain again for reminding benefits the believers . The verse says Allah perfected what he created . You want to force the meaning that it MUST mean evolving things after creating them . But ones who know a few things about Arabic OR English know that it isn't necessary . Even when I was a kid of 8 years old and used to read this sign , I used to think "It means that God created the creatures perfectly" and no idea of evolution ever hit someone I know . THEN - and you think writing in capital makes a difference - Allah says that he started creating human out of mud . Here , there are two possible meanings for the word "Human" . The first is that it means Adam - peace upon him - and in that case evolution has no room . God started forming father Adam out of mud , and the story is mentioned in Hadith which you despise so much because you don't know the first thing about it . The other meaning is that "Human" is a "Type noun" which means all mankind . In this case , the beginning of creating man means the first one being Adam peace upon him . Now , when we move to the next sign it says that Allah - after starting forming human out of mud - made his lineage نسل made of water that is sperm . Meaning that God made human reproduce through sexual intercourse . Let's take both meanings again . If the human here is meant to be father Adam then it means that God made his lineage made of sperm which is true with father Adam and mother Eve both AND their children after them . If I take the other meaning , it's also correct because the lineage of mankind - after the first stage of the first man made of mud - is made of sperm . Let's move to the next . It says that Allah blew of his created soul into this human and gave him sight and hearing and hearts . Let's take both meanings again . If we take the meaning that it's the entire human race , it means the formation of the child in the womb as I said . If it means father Adam then it means the same . Done . No evolution .
Trying to make me look bad through saying I don't accept science does nothing . What I don't accept is bigoted lies supported by more lies . To put it simply , you'll clutch to any straw left as long as it means evolution is true and I can't see why.
If I hear more abusing of the word "Science" I'll lose it . I keep telling you that science keeps stepping on the remains of this myth day after another but it seems I'm talking to myself
Not related . I said it before , we have the sayings of the prophet peace upon him and they are more than enough for every Muslim who respects Islam
I SWEAR to God that you're completely ignorant of any and everything in this science . Our last conversation showed it . And you need to understand that seeing something on the internet doesn't make you a scholar . Just because you read an article or two doesn't mean you know about it . And going further on will show yet more ignorance which would make one facepalm .
QuoteIf you ever played a game back in grade school, its like the whisper game, the teacher promised everyone a lolipop if we could whisper what she says to the next person in a chain and see if the last whisper is the same as the original teacher's whisper. Although we all wanted that lolipop, we tried to listen carefully and did our best. In the end, the last whisper is so different from the original teacher's whisper even though we all had good intentions. In the last whisper, there is some truth in it, but it concealed much detail, exaggerated soem and students added their own itnerpreations to the whisper. Would it be far fetched to say the same things happened in hadiths? I don't think so.I would have slapped you for this insolence if you were in front of me . I tell you about a science which scholars spend years learning and gathering and you think making a farce of this joke deems it invalid ?!
Why not ? You're so sure of it that you call denying it an embarrassment to Islam . The truth is , you were forced to study this in school and so you don't dare question it as if it was a gospel . I told you to drop by here :
www.eltwhed.com/vb/forum.php
so that I show you and you still made no comment . Truthful is the one who said that Darwinism is a new religion with a doctrine
Uh-huh . And I'M the one being rude and offensive ? And twisting the meanings to suit my desire ? What desire ? The desire that we were created already perfectly and there was no need for a goddamned myth as evolution ?
Because you show serious lack of knowledge about Arabic AND English AND logic ! You have something with multiple meanings , and another one saying that the true meaning is only one . Logically , you'd go with that one meaning because there is no room for doubt anymore . But you want to force the idea that the other WRONG meaning is the right one .
Between you and me , I KNOW your type . We see ones like that every now and then . They read a few articles on internet and thought they can judge the ones who spent their whole lives learning or even say the companions of the prophet are hypocrites . Abandon the idea that you're the genius who discovered what others couldn't all these centuries.
Because it's mentioned in this sign o headache bringer !! For the thousand time , if you know nothing about language then it's your problem . No book of explanation says a thing about this doctrine called "Evolution" . And I as a simple commoner can give a more rational explanation which is that we were made to grow out of the soil of Earth as said before . The problem is with the ones who make this myth a religion to follow . And if you look at the meaning of "إنبات" here :
http://www.almaany.com/quran/26/7/6/
it says that it is making something grow out of Earth or by making something out of this Earth . And even in the worst case scenario , if we take it as literally meaning that we grew out of ground then it is a metaphor because we have other crystal clear evidence that it isn't .
After all this displaying of ignorance of Quran , Hadith , language , and logic , you're not one to accuse others of changing the meanings of something
Be skeptical as much as you like when you're buying tomatoes . We're here talking about a whole science . Someone with absolutely no knowledge of it is the last to criticize it . You want me to see all this evidence you talk about . You want me to "Learn" . And now you think a rotten article on internet makes you able to take or let whatever you want of Islam ?
Fantasy my foot ! An insult to me is something I can tolerate , but insulting the companions and entire nations is unforgivable !
The verse is talking about those whose hearts are astray . And if we compare between those who lived right after the prophet and some nobody who sticks his nose in whatever he thinks he can , well , you'd be the one astray.
I don't think the verses brought by the supporters of "Adam's parents theory in the Quran" should be included under "mutashabihat" their meaning is very clear ,just the supporters read so much in between the lines...
next post inshallah another visit to the verses ...
Allah chose Adam from the rest of mankind, YES! You finally get it!Again , don't put words in my mouth . Allah favored them on the rest of "عالمين" = Worlds of humans and Jins and angels ... etc . No evolution at all . And then :
Who did Allah choose Adam over? The other creations that existed with Adam.
Who did Allah choose Noah over? The other humans that existed with Noah.
Who did Allah choose the family of Abraham over? The other humans that existed with Abraham.
Notice verse 2:30; (Quran 2:30) And when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority.
Who was Adam succeeded over in EARTH? Other animals.And you talk about wishful thinking ? The simple answer is that there were other creatures on Earth before humans . Does it in any way that man came from animals ? No . And do Jins ring any bell ?
Next, the verse does not say they are descendants from each other, that's what you want it to read.Great ! More acrobatic explanations !
IF you are telling me that your Arabic is better than the Quranic scholars, you got another thing coming.So now scholars are to be taken for evidence ? Ok Mr. evasive , the entire body of scholars from the beginning of Islam said nothing about this myth . Case closed . And EVEN this page you brought says nothing about this religion you're so desperate to force on Islam . Firstly , saying that these are descendants of each other doesn't have to include father Adam but only his offspring . That's a matter of language and logic . Moreover , if we were to take it as literal ascendancy of blood and flesh then it would contradict this one .
Tawbah 67 The hypocrites, both men and women, proceed one from anotherBut rather , they are proceeding of each other in delivering the message of God .
I haven't abandoned anything. A rationally honest person cannot accept hadiths as the word of the prophet. Sorry, I consider myself intellectually honest.And I consider you an enemy of Islam . It seems that you wouldn't trust Hadith until your Gods of west say that its science is the best through history . And to surprise you more , they did :
Considering the Quran, you HAVE to say that Adam was created in Earth. I don't care what part of Earth or 'paradise' on Earth. That is just an excuse on your part to justify the invalid hadith.Until you explain it's just another empty claim of yours the same as every point you have said . And I can see that you're starting to lose it .
Where does the Quran say sand, then mud then clay?
Rahman (13) He created man of clay like the potter's,And you know where mud is mentioned .
You don't understand the logic here. YES, God perfected what he created. YES. What does that mean? That creation had a process of perfection. This is too much excuse making on your part to deny reality.Then go back to high school and study logic of math and language . Another thing is , according to your acrobatic explanations everything should have evolved ! Didn't God create rocks ? Then they must have been different things before ? Didn't God create Gold ? Then it must have been silver according to your logic !
If it meant Adam (as you agree with): Then Adam would have been created AFTER sexual reproduction.So far , the problem is either that you lack knowledge of Arabic or that you're stubborn to this ideology . How on earth do you understand that "Then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid" mean that the first cell - And it says "Human"- formed reproductive organs , with three question and exclamation marks ???!!! This question of mine answers this one of yours
You also refused to even accept the 3rd possibilityThis probability is not to be taken because it contradicts with Sunnah AND the basics of Arabic grammar !
3-It meant mankind has went through a process of perfection. After the BEGINNING of the process, he created sexual reproduction (with semen) and after that process, he fashioned us and given us consciousness.
I'm going to quote Yusif Ali's commentary (the one I have available at hand): "(http://www.9ori.com/blog/media/images/b68929988c.jpg)
Man is asked to contemplate his own humble beginning. His material body (apart from life) is a piece of earth or clay, which is another term for primeval matter.Matter is therefore the first stage, but even matter was not self-created. It was created by Allah."
"Then comes life and the reproduction of life."
After fertilization of ovum by the sperm, an individual life comes into existence, and it is gradually fashioned into shape, its limbs are formed; its animal life begins to function; all the beautiful adaptations come into play.
The fourth stage here mentioned is that of distinctive Man, into whom Allah's spirit is breathed. Then he rises higher than animals.
^Do you understand now. LIfe came from Matter, which then sexual reproduction occurred, which then allowed mankind to be gradually fashioned into shape. The Animal gets created, and the fourth stages is what makes Animals different from humans, humans gain higher consciousness.
I'm sorry brother, the evidence here is too overwhelming!Overwhelm my foot ! If it's really as you think it is then come prove it to us where I told you . Have some courage and read something that doesn't match what you were forced to learn in school .
I'm going to disregard personal attacks (as if they disprove my arguments)OK , what kind of a farce is this ? Saying you're ignorant of Arabic and logic AFTER proving it is a personal attack ?
Why do the verses have different meanings from the supposed sayings of the prophet? Because they are not sayings of the prophet. Simple and pure I've been looking at hadiths and their science for a quite a while now, no rational person can seriously say they are really what the prophet said, uncorrupted--even if it was unintentional.You know what ? Among the types of people I despise the most are the arrogant and and ignorant . So do you have an idea of how much I facepalm when you gathered both ? Already , the last conversation about Hadith showed your true degree in it . Enough said .
And Adam was proportioned AFTER sexual reproduction as well. Still proves my point on evolution.I already demonstrated that your explanation of it as forming of sexual reproductive organs is out of the box .
I am using a word-for-word multiple translator site that is very authoritative. No longer will that argument of yours have any place.Authorized my foot !!! You shamelessly insult Hadith and call it corrupted and now you talk about authorization ?! "If you have no shame then do as you please" !
Evolution perfects creation. No contradiction here.It DOES contradicts everything . Quran says that God created everything perfect .
The support of evolution comes after when it says that AFTER our ability to make a reproductive liquid, we were ALL proportioend and given consciousness (including Adam, other verses say Adam was proportioned and given consciousness) This verse says that Adam (and consequently you) was proportioned and given consciousnesses AFTER sexual reproduction's formation.Already explained . Take a course and come back .
So that means that Adam himself was in a womb!
Adam was also created from nutfah.No comment . If you want to throw sanity and logic out of the window then I would have left you be . But to ignore Quran and Sunnah then that's the red line !
and judge by what I said which is nothing more than a literal interpretation of the Quran and its application to reality. No excuses made.Moreover , literal my foot ! No Arabic or English or logic ?!
Personally, I don't think you will ever understand what science is unless you study it. I'm not going to put this one against you.Keep that personal nonsense to yourself . I won't be judge by someone so ignorant of Quran and Hadith that he doesn't know the first thing about them as proven before .
If you want to believe the Chinese whispers over the Quran, its your choice. Allah is the judge.After all of this , even saying something censored is being nice you . If you can't clean your filthy mouth , don't try to talk like someone civilized .
I'm telling you that you are ignorant and you still to fallacious beliefs rather than the Quranic truth. If you seek truth, find truth. Not lies and self-deception and excuse making.Someone seems to have lost his cool edge .
Does the fact that scholars spent years gathering hadiths in any way tell you that they are uncorrupted? No. Do you know how they judge hadiths as to whether they are authentic or not? If the speakers had good Character.Only a madman would compare this method to Hadith . Already explained . And yes , I happen to know a small fragment of the science of Hadith . The difference is that I'm not ignorant like someone .
My uncle told me that his friend said that his friend said that his cousin said that his great grandfather said that his uncle said that the prophet said...
Sorry bro, not something a logical person can accept.
Give me a specific argument, please. Evolution is fact and you need to be very well-understanding of it. There is a reason why nearly all scientists accept it.Fact my foot !
Its not based on blind belief, like hadith.That's it ! Insulting me is something , insulting Islam is another !!!! If you coward have a shred of shame or dignity then come debate :
Personal attacks will yet again be ignored. I don't attack you, so its common courtesy not to attack me. Disprove my points rather than attack me.What personal attacks ? You attacked Islam and I redirected your poisonous arrows at you .
So many excuses, brother,I am NOT a brother of an enemy of Islam . Flat out .
Secondly you made a circular reasoning fallacy that atheists make. The Quran cannot support science or evolution because it is an old book not from God. Then they say the Quran is not from God because it is an old book that doesn't support evolution. Don't sink to their levelNobody sank to their level but you . And lying about me and saying something I didn't say shows that either you're failing to understand or that you're a hypocrite . You call whatever you don't like as 7th century fantasy . If we tell you that no scholar said what you say you brag "I only follow Quran" and Quran is innocent of you . But now , you bring me sayings of some guys on internet - And they don't even support you ! - and take them as gospels !
After all this displaying of excuse making, personal attacks and refusing to address why I say you are changing the meanings of verses--I have to make the conclusion that you know that you are making excuses to support your old-age factually incorrect beliefs.For everyone reading : Don't mind if I say that this man is retarded . I address every single point he makes and he simply shoves them off and then goes "Why do you twist the meaning ?" while he AWFULLY fails to show how come his retarded interruptions have a ground on either Quran or Hadith or logic or Arabic OR English !
What article are you talking about? Why do you assume my beliefs are based off of one article? My beleifs are based off of a rational judgement of reality.As you have proved , your beliefs are based on irrational twisted explanations which Satan wouldn't have thought of . And I know your type . The common thing between you is arrogance thinking that you're so special because you came up with something different . No matter how much one explains or shows you how wrong you are , you still repeat like parrots .
Where did I insult you or the companions. We must make it clear when I insult someone's beliefs, I am not insulting them, but their beliefs.I wouldn't be surprised if you were actually an Atheist because this is the same sadistic foul logic of theirs . OK then , I say that your mother is [Peep] . According to your lack of upbringing , you shouldn't be offended . If you - who don't mind insulting Islam - are a bunch of sissies then that is your own goddamn business !
drinking animal urine will cure you,As I said , your beliefs are based on personal "I don't like it" thinking . Read a little and get more educated
Yes, and the verse also is talking about how verses in the Quran are not meant to be understood by everyone, even the companions themselves.OH ! And a nobody thinks he can understand what the prophet and his companions didn't ?!
Time to wake up, brother. Be honest with me, be honest with yourself, be honest with Allah. The Quran is clear as day!Nah , I think it's time for you to wake up from drinking too much alcohol .
Brother it seems like this thread is creating division among us. Brothers, I urge upon all of you to stop arguing with each other.Say that to the one insulting Islam . And keep in mind that truth comes before everything even the link of flesh and blood between two siblings . Abandoning Hadith in case you don't know means abandoning Islam in total . Let me ask : If this method is really untrusted and the best way to keep history then what is ? If we say this method is unreliable or something then why not say that Quran is also corrupted because we can't make sure that it was passed the same through history ? Why not say that there was never a man called Muhammad ? How can we know that there ever was ? It could be a legend forged by someone . Why not say that all history we have is corrupted ? If this perfect method isn't reliable then how can I be sure that there was a world war one or two ? Maybe it's a legend forged by someone . Why can't the ones after us say that there was never a war in Syria or anywhere and that they are just legends ? You see ? If we take that twisted track of mind , we'll end up abandoning the entire history and Islam . And I'd like to know how do the ones denying Hadith practice any kind of worship if they don't follow Sunnah ! How many prayers do they pray ? How do they perform Haj ? Truth is , they don't do a thing at all . And that's what one of them said . He said that fasting in other than Ramadan is a fable ! That the Friday prayer is a fable ! And so on ! All because he denies the sayings of the prophet peace upon him . Did you see what this road leads to ? And that's why they show up and say that Jews and Christians will enter paradise if they remain on their religion ! That's why they show up and call some - or all - the companions hypocrites and infidels ! That's why they say one can commit adultery because Islam doesn't restrict freedom !
Its true that no other book can be 100% authentic except The Quran. But Sahih hadiths can be 70 to 80% authentic.It depends on the chain of this Hadith and other things about it . First of all , one must understand that when a scholar calls his book "Sahih" then that's according to his knowledge . But when nations of scholars from Spain of the far west to near India from the east search through all these sayings , there is no way one can say they all cooperated to corrupt them ! And even the authorized of Bukhari was criticized and searched through and there were weak unauthorized sayings in it . Does it mean we should say everything else is unauthorized ? No . People should understand that we don't say the book of Bukhari is authorized because it was written by Bukhari . No , it is authorized because it was the most strictly gathered book among all with most accuracy .
Respect each other!!!If the insult was about me , I wouldn't have been this angry . But it was an insult to Islam itself by insulting Hadith which is Sunnah .
The above narration is a crude illustration of the process of how Ahadiths were compiled.No offense but , indeed , this is a crude and wrong illustration of Hadith . Just to show so , you need to know that prophet Muhammad peace upon him DID allow writing Hadith after there was no danger of mistaking it for Quran or the other way around . So this example is invalid .
The Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad was established during his life for all to follow and to pass on for generations. The Sunnah is the second primary source of the doctrine of Islam, the Qur'an being the first. They go hand in hand to complete the beliefs and practices all Muslims are to follow. However, the question arises, "what is Sunnah?" The Sunnah is a set of practices that the Prophet taught the Muslims to follow. For twenty-three years, five times a day, he showed them how to purify themselves for payer (ablution, Wudu). For the same amount of years and the same number of times a day, he showed them how to pray. He showed them to eat with their right hands, and invoke God's name and blessings upon the food and to thank God when finished. For a number of years he taught them to perform the pilgrimage (Hajj) and all its details and many other things that Muslims do now as if it is second nature. It was not what he ate or how he ate, nor was it what he dressed in or what he preferred that became Sunnah. It was the belief and conviction in the One God that became manifest in these practices which is the Sunnah. It was a code of practice limited to what God has ordained for humankind for all time. These set of practices were passed on through generations without the problems faced by Ahadith.Uh-huh . And how come you knew that he ever did such things ? No , how come you knew there was ever a man named Muhammad ? If that wasn't through Hadith and history , then how ?
There is no perception problem, or lack of context placement. There is not an individual that may mislead (whether purposefully or innocently) the rest of the chain from himself on. There is no confusing a certain practice as that taught by the Prophet with that taught by someone else. The Prophet was teaching the Sunnah of Islam to multitudes of people observing. It may have begun with ten who observed, then a hundred who followed, then thousands all observing the same practice over and over again, directly from the Prophet. This has remained a phenomenon to this day.And what's your evidence ? With the same logic you use to accuse Hadith of corruption I can say that someone forged new ways of worship or erased some . The problem is that you compare a whole strict science which looks in every single detail and doesn't allow a single letter to be changed without noticing to a game of "Your telephone is broken" !
The narrative is not an attempt to achieve an emotional response. It is an attempt at illustrating how the religion of Islam is passed on. Most Muslims learn their religion by following someone. By learning through example. The initial introduction of Islam to the generations of Muslims regards the passing on of the beliefs in the Qur'an and the practice of Sunnah. All other sources are almost always something pursued later on in life. This is a mere fact of history.Reality says that this is wrong . There are Muslims who drink in Ramadan after the time of Fajr arrives . Why's that ? Because they believe it is OK to do so until Athan is over . Why's that ? Because they saw their parents do it , and their parents saw that from their parents and so on . So , does that mean this act is OK ?
Sunnah and Hadith, therefore, are completely two different elements within Islamic doctrine. Sunnah was initiated by the Prophet for his Ummah to follow, while the latter, Hadith, was initiated by great men who wanted to preserve information about the events and incidents in the Prophet's life. It is a fact of history that the Prophet discouraged the recording any of his words so that they may not be confused with the transmission of the Qur'an, which was the primary mission of the Prophet. Had the Prophet felt that an essential part of his teachings would be lost if all Hadiths were not recorded then surely he would have ordered them to be written down by official scribes, just as there were official scribes of the Qur'an. It is obvious that the Prophet would then have taken some preparatory action to develop these Hadiths under his direct supervision. However, this is not what happened; the entire scheme of bringing Islam to the world was perfectly conveyed through the two primary sources of Islam, the Qur'an and Sunnah. To say otherwise would be tantamount to claiming that the Prophet failed to complete the doctrine as was revealed to him by God.I find a huge misunderstanding of conceptions here . In short , Hadith was ordered to be written by the prophet himself . Hadith was written ever since he was alive . Hadith is the words of the prophet himself . And to make sure no one would corrupt it and add things to it , the science of Hadith was used . So , Hadith is the way to know Sunnah if you really want to make them completely different things .
There are some, with slanderous intentions, who charge that those outside the realm of Islam concoct these explanations but they fail to provide any such evidence. They have elevated Ahadith, by invoking the term Sahih, to the status of the Qur'an and make it seem as if Islam is dysfunctional without these traditions. That is the same stance the Jewish tribes took when they developed their Talmud along with other books and many Christians with their churches. It is the responsibility of the Muslim Ummah to preserve both primary sources of Islam, the Qur'an and Sunnah, and maintain their religion as was transmitted by the Prophet through the generations.Who said so ?! Where do you get these ideas from ?! We said Hadith - the way to know Sunnah - is the second source of teachings in Islam . Nobody says that it comes in the same statue as Quran ! And again , DON'T COMPARE HADITH TO ACTS OF JEWS AND CHRISTIANS ! I find it useless to repeat that Hadith isn't deemed authorized unless it has the conditions of being right . And when you tell the ones accusing Hadith of corruption to read a little bit about its must basic rules , they don't . So , if you don't know the thing , how can you attack it ?
d study logic of math and language . Another thing is , according to your acrobatic explanations everything should have evolved ! Didn't God create rocks ? Then they must have been different things before ? Didn't God create Gold ? Then it must have been silver according to your logic !YES!! Everything evolved. Rocks were not always rocks. A silver atom was not always a silver atom. It had a process of its creation. Just like mankind.
salamThen sorry , I misunderstood . And yes , there are forged sayings among Hadith which are exposed if judged by the science of crediting and discrediting . And yes , not all Hadith is the exact same words of the prophet peace upon him . The companions - Allah be pleased of them - passed the general meaning with no altering . There are types of Hadith which require exact passing down word by word and so it happened . My only point was that abandoning Hadith entirely means abandoning the way in which we understand Quran and Sunnah and history .
Brother, I believe the ahadith, my point was not to throw doubt over the ahadith. it was just to show that the sunnah has been passed on from generation to generation by so many people the chances of it having anything corrupted is 0.0000000000001%. Also, not all the ahadith are the exact words of the prophet himself, rather some contain the general message of what the prophet said.
Furthermore, you can find more scientific proof that evolution is a farce at evolutionnews.com
I will refrain from going further into this and make it short .
1 - The meaning of evolution in Arabic is "Tatawwor تطور" . But what does it mean ? It means moving from one "Tawr" to another . Yes , Allah created us in different forms and stages wither it's father Adam peace upon him or us . That doesn't have a thing to do with this theory which I find difficult to call so .
Bro Mclinkin why wont you engage in a scientific discussion with us on evolution, if you are so confdent it is true then debate with us on the topic. (:
Bro mclinkin read this
http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/09/nature_converge076811.html
Wait before we proceed on this discussion can i know what your view on evolution are? Do you believe in god guided evolution (Intelligent Design) or darwinian evolution (random mutations etc., etc.)
Do you not believe in free will?