An advice to mclinkin94

[mclinkin94]

I already told you linckin , I did what I have to do . Your last post only repeats the last points . And none is better than Quran in saying this :
((And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."))

If you wish to remain stubborn in a clear Quran, then Indeed I will let you disbelieve in the Quran.

It was not repeats of the last points, it was clarifying your misunderstanding and a provision of different other points to further bring out my points. The Quran is clear, I simply don't like it when you use a rhetorical gain. So to relive this gain, I will summarize the debate:

Here is the summary of our debate:

Your points:
-Evolution is a lie not supported by the Quran because:

-The hadiths say otherwise (even though they reflect 7th century ignorant interpretations of a Quran)
-Quran 32:7-9 is not taking about steps of human creation (although it is clear)
-Quran 32:7-9 uses the word Ahsana which doesn't have to mean "better" and could mean Good (I have shown you that it doesn't matter because the context of the verse says the same thing and can still mean better and in fact applying it to Quran 40:64 makes more sense to use 'better', even the sahin international translation even supports the translation 'better')
-Even though the Quran says that we were created in stages, that only applies to embryology (It doesn't, as science and the Quran itself has told us how Adam's creation was not instant and involved stages)


Do you get why I don't support your view? It is because of All of your excuse making...it is because of you forcing a hadith interpretation of the Quran despite the contradiction it creates with the Quran and reality.

[Black Muslim]

Case closed . I really hoped that you would have some humbleness and admit even one mistake of what you make . But your overconfidence and glorifying of yourself seems to be a difficult obstacle .
((And he turned away from them and said, "O my people, I had certainly conveyed to you the message of my Lord and advised you, but you do not like advisors."))

[mclinkin94]

Case closed . I really hoped that you would have some humbleness and admit even one mistake of what you make . But your overconfidence and glorifying of yourself seems to be a difficult obstacle .
((And he turned away from them and said, "O my people, I had certainly conveyed to you the message of my Lord and advised you, but you do not like advisors."))

Same goes to you.

I have made mistakes, but, in this debate I know I have provided great reasoning with great Quranic support.

You did indeed correct me on a few things, lets not forget them:

1.) That we are not to blindly reject Hadiths as they may have some truth
2.) The word "ahsana" can be translated as "good" as well as "better''.

The verses you post can be used to talk about you as well

I have not seen a good point in which the Quran rejects the idea of evolution. In fact, this was your weakest argument. You have made good arguments when it comes to hadiths that I hope we will address later, but the evolution arguments were very weak with tons of excuse making.

I hope you can address my points. We seek knowledge and truth, we do not seek to say that "I am right and you are wrong". I seek truth. I don't see that in your arguments.

[Black Muslim]

You have made good arguments when it comes to hadiths that I hope we will address later, but the evolution arguments were very weak with tons of excuse making.

We've already gone through that and I'm not doing it again considering that I kept posting certain points over 5 times and you never addressed them . When it comes to evolution , it is you who fails to show a single sign in Quran supporting this ideology . Trying to push your way through saying I'm dishonest and that the signs are "clear" means nothing . Otherwise , you really need to check your eyes so that you can redefine "clear" .

I hope you can address my points. We seek knowledge and truth, we do not seek to say that "I am right and you are wrong". I seek truth. I don't see that in your arguments.

A big bluff really . Look who's talking . I do this because I won't stand aside while someone tries to alter what's in Islam in order to please his personal liking or that of others . The matter with you is "I'm right and the whole Islamic nation ever since it was founded is wrong" . No room for comparison really .

[mclinkin94]

We've already gone through that and I'm not doing it again considering that I kept posting certain points over 5 times and you never addressed them . When it comes to evolution , it is you who fails to show a single sign in Quran supporting this ideology . Trying to push your way through saying I'm dishonest and that the signs are "clear" means nothing . Otherwise , you really need to check your eyes so that you can redefine "clear" .

I'm not sure what points you are talking about. I addressed all points until I decided we will go back to discussing Hadiths after evolution.

Not only were you dishonest in saying that I have failed to show a single sign in the Quran, you deny your own dishonesty.

There is no debate here. In fact let me just post another verse from the plethora of verses I have to support my point. Indeed Allah, the creator of the worlds, has put those verses in the Quran for a reason and that reason is that those verses be understood once science progresses. Here is one:

Quran 82:7 O Mankind....Who created you, then proportioned you, then balanced you? (Remember that the proportioning and balancing ALSO applies to Adam as other verses say it does)

Look at that. It is summarizing and separating 3 major stages in creation. This verse is further supporting the Quranic verse that states creation is in stages ((Quran 71:14)  God created you in diverse stages) . Look at how it mirrors the basic idea of Evolution. Then you say that Evolution is not supported in the Quran.

But, no. You like to spread the falsehood that diverts those from Islam and say that the Quran contradicts evolution. You are harming the religion of God despite its clarity. There is a reason those verses were worded that way.

I hope you can address my points. We seek knowledge and truth, we do not seek to say that "I am right and you are wrong". I seek truth. I don't see that in your arguments.

A big bluff really . Look who's talking . I do this because I won't stand aside while someone tries to alter what's in Islam in order to please his personal liking or that of others . The matter with you is "I'm right and the whole Islamic nation ever since it was founded is wrong" . No room for comparison really .

[/quote]

You are altering what is in the Quran in order to please your personal liking. Hello? I'm simply posting Quranic verses and you are making excuses. And I keep showing you that those excuses are invalid. This is incompetence to a new level, not only that you say things like "I've already discussed" even though we both know you didn't and neither have you discussed well. The evidence in the Quran is too strong. It only takes dishonesty to deny such clear verses. An honest and straightforward interpretation of the Quran brings you to believe in Evolution.

--

Further, you commit the fallacy of appealing to tradition and the appeal to popular belief.

Think about it for a second. Allah is all knowing and he puts a Quran to 7th century people. It is obvious and understandable that they would interpret the Quran differently than we would because they don't have the scientific knowledge to apply those Quranic verses to. But, you appeal to that 7th century ignorance, you appeal to the fradulent way in which they understood the Quran, even as I show you how its true. 

Your tactic so far is this;

1.) I present a Quranic verse showing evolution
2.)You make an excuse
3.)I refute your excuse in light of other Quranic verses
4.) then when I ask you to refute my arguments, you say "I already addressed it".

This isn't a rational way to debate. This is incompetence, this nonsense needs to stop.

I still urge you to address my arguments. I seek knowledge and you should too, I do not seek anything but the truth. If this is a bluff to you, then I'm sorry for being to reasonable for you to handle.

Stop spreading this falsehood and stop diverting people from the path of God. This anti-evolution nonsense needs to stop. The Quran is not against and there is WAAY more than just a casual reference/hint to evolution in the Quran!

[Black Muslim]

http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/showthread.php?54933-%C7%D3%CA%D4%C7%D1%C9-%DD%ED-%C7%E1%D1%CF-%DA%E1%EC-%E3%E4%DF%D1-%E1%E1%D3%E4%C9

[mclinkin94]

http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/showthread.php?54933-%C7%D3%CA%D4%C7%D1%C9-%DD%ED-%C7%E1%D1%CF-%DA%E1%EC-%E3%E4%DF%D1-%E1%E1%D3%E4%C9

Why do you keep forwarding me to this website? I checked it again, all I saw is you posting everything I said here to get a second opinion. But I didn't see much relevance to Evolution. All I see is that you are stuck on hadiths again...As if the interpretation of the Quran is dependent on Hadiths. Has the Quran (the complete authority) said that it wasn't clear enough so that hadiths are needed for understanding? NO! The Quran said quite the opposite.

Indeed the Quran tells us of people like you:

[Quran 31:6] Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless HADITH, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.

Are the hadiths you uphold baseless, why?

1.) The majority contradict Science and reality (unless you wanna say that you should dip your fly in the drink twice or that on the 6th day of Friday afternoon Allah created humans).
2.) The method of hadith collection is not a perfect science (We have seen mistakes in Sahih hadiths in which we now say are not from the prophet)
3.) Internal contradictions exist within ''sahih'' hadiths (We all testify to this)
4.) The Quran tells you to not follow any other hadith except the Quran. (MANY MANY times did the Quran tell you that it is the only truth).

Do they divert others from the path of God?

Yes they do, because people understand the fact of evolution in which hadiths contradict. Muslims then force a hadith interpretation to the Quran that is rather contradictory to the Quran and reality and is dishonest. A fair and honest reading of the Quran brings you in support of evolution. Excuse making brings you in support of the hadiths.

Indeed the Quran tells us to obey the messenger. But what is the messenger's SOLE duty:

"And obey God and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that the sole duty of the messenger is the deliverance (of the message)" 5:92

"And obey God and obey the messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our messenger is the sole duty of the clear delivery (of the message)" 64:12

..to deliver the message.

Here is the logic:

Premise one: We must obey the messenger
Premise two: The messenger's sole duty is the deliver the message (the message is in verses of the Quran as the Quran also states, the Quran does not say the message is also the oral hadiths)

Conclusion: Therefore we must only obey the message (Quran) in which the messenger has came with.

"Say (O Muhammad), "What is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me to warn you with it and whomever it reaches." 6:19

This testimony which God describes as "Akbar Shahada" (the Greatest Testimony) commands Muhammad to testify that He received the Quran from God. This testimony speaks of only one revelation received by Muhammad from God which is the Quran. If Muhammad truly received other revelations from God (other than the Quran), would we not find any mention of it in the Quran? Would God hide the fact that He gave Muhammad a revelation independent of the Quran and then command us to obey it?

You see that: A completely honest interpretation of the Quran. No excuse making, nothing but the Quran explaining itself. If Allah, the all knowing, all mighty creator wanted you to follow those Hadiths, why didn't he specifically tell us to follow things outside of the Quran? Why did he tell us exactly the opposite.

I bring you the last point, when Allah says that he created humans in stages, it means that he created humans in stages...it doesn't get any more of an honest translation.

[Black Muslim]

Now that you make more nonsense and want to misguide people yet more , I'll have to talk again .

Indeed the Quran tells us of people like you:

[Quran 31:6] Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless HADITH, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.

Have not I said that you'd go as low as to forge verses in Quran and explain it in absurd ways ? Not even one translation here says what you claim :
http://quran.com/31/6
You're just so desperate to say "I'm right and you're wrong" even if it's by altering what's in Quran for your own selfish liking . That is why someone must be here to clarify to people that what you do is nothing of Islam . And get this , Quran is nothing like the corrupted books of Jews and Christians , one try and you'll get busted . Let alone if it's with someone who speaks the native language of the book .

Are the hadiths you uphold baseless, why?

1.) The majority contradict Science and reality (unless you wanna say that you should dip your fly in the drink twice or that on the 6th day of Friday afternoon Allah created humans).
2.) The method of hadith collection is not a perfect science (We have seen mistakes in Sahih hadiths in which we now say are not from the prophet)
3.) Internal contradictions exist within ''sahih'' hadiths (We all testify to this)
4.) The Quran tells you to not follow any other hadith except the Quran. (MANY MANY times did the Quran tell you that it is the only truth).

A futile attempt to run away yet again . Really , if your house is glass , don't throw stones on people . I'll fire your arrows back at you one by one .

1.) The majority contradict Science and reality (unless you wanna say that you should dip your fly in the drink twice or that on the 6th day of Friday afternoon Allah created humans).

My God ! Never thought you were THAT ignorant ! We take it as a scientific miracle and you see it as an error ?!
First of all o one who holds no shred of shame , just because you feel disgusted it doesn't mean that this saying is wrong . Secondly , I'll just give you the link and let you see how you reject things based on your liking .
http://www.kaheel7.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=537
And I swear to the lord that anything you call an "error" is in a similar way . It doesn't go like this . We won't discard a major part of Islam just because you mister are "grossed" . If so , villagers would stop drinking milk right after milking a cow because the spoiled are disgusted .

2.) The method of hadith collection is not a perfect science (We have seen mistakes in Sahih hadiths in which we now say are not from the prophet)

Says who ? The guy who doesn't know the first thing about this science ?! If you really read Quran - and you clearly don't - you would have immediately accepted it , but desires are dangerous indeed .

2 - The ones who wrote Hadith did follow the teachings of Quran and used its way .

A - Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."
B - O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.
C - And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you,
D - O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.

In the first one , Quran gives instructions to ask for evidence in anything and not accept whatever told . In the second one , Quran tells us to be investigate what we are told . In the third one , Quran tells us to be patient in investigating evidence . In the fourth one , Quran tells us to not accuse with no proof .
Now , these rules are done correctly by the scholars of Hadith while you who deny Sunnah do the opposite . You don't follow the third one which tells us to be patient in finding evidence . When one writes Hadith , he travels great distances to make sure of every single piece of information he is told . And you who sit in your house with air conditioning have no right object on this method . And when it comes to the forth one , Allah tells us to avoid negative assumptions while you simply say Hadith is corrupted and that the writers are liars and hypocrites . You even go to call the companions hypocrites !!

3.) Internal contradictions exist within ''sahih'' hadiths (We all testify to this)

Congrats , you made me say it after refraining from it for a while : Testify my foot ! Since when did "You" mean "We all" ?
The same as what you call errors , they are based on your own weak understanding and "unwillingness" . And every single time you open your mouth you'll only prove it more .

4.) The Quran tells you to not follow any other hadith except the Quran. (MANY MANY times did the Quran tell you that it is the only truth).

You lie . And what a big lie it is . Quran tells time and time again to follow what the prophet says because it is also the revelation of the almighty . You with your upside down logic change what the signs mean to match what you claim . I won't repeat unless necessary .

Do they divert others from the path of God?

Yes they do, because people understand the fact of evolution in which hadiths contradict. Muslims then force a hadith interpretation to the Quran that is rather contradictory to the Quran and reality and is dishonest. A fair and honest reading of the Quran brings you in support of evolution. Excuse making brings you in support of the hadiths.

Irrelevant rant based on claiming that the myth of "evolution" is a gospel .

Indeed the Quran tells us to obey the messenger. But what is the messenger's SOLE duty:

"And obey God and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that the sole duty of the messenger is the deliverance (of the message)" 5:92

"And obey God and obey the messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our messenger is the sole duty of the clear delivery (of the message)" 64:12

..to deliver the message.

Here is the logic:

Premise one: We must obey the messenger
Premise two: The messenger's sole duty is the deliver the message (the message is in verses of the Quran as the Quran also states, the Quran does not say the message is also the oral hadiths)

Conclusion: Therefore we must only obey the message (Quran) in which the messenger has came with.

And you want to delude yourself and others that what the prophet says is not a revelation ? Again , you're the most ignorant of Quran which you claim to follow :

1 By the star when it descends, 2 Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred, 3 Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. 4 It is not but a revelation revealed,

So obeying the messenger is by necessity leading to obey what he says . Twist it however you like , that's what it is and that's what the nation understood until this species called "Sunnah rejecters" showed up .

"Say (O Muhammad), "What is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me to warn you with it and whomever it reaches." 6:19

This testimony which God describes as "Akbar Shahada" (the Greatest Testimony) commands Muhammad to testify that He received the Quran from God. This testimony speaks of only one revelation received by Muhammad from God which is the Quran. If Muhammad truly received other revelations from God (other than the Quran), would we not find any mention of it in the Quran? Would God hide the fact that He gave Muhammad a revelation independent of the Quran and then command us to obey it?

In what world does this sign deny any kind of revelation aside from Quran ? I'll take the logic lessons a little easy and make it step by step :
1 - A guy gets a basket of different kinds of fruits
2 - He says "I got orange"
3 - That in no universe mean he didn't get anything but orange
And I told you over a hundred time how Quran orders us to obey the prophet .

You see that: A completely honest interpretation of the Quran. No excuse making, nothing but the Quran explaining itself. If Allah, the all knowing, all mighty creator wanted you to follow those Hadiths, why didn't he specifically tell us to follow things outside of the Quran? Why did he tell us exactly the opposite.

What I see is a load of rant produced out of a deep hatred of what doesn't match your selfish desires . What I also see is a load of nonsense which you try to make look "scientific" .

And yet again , for over the fifth time maybe , I'll bring what you keep running away from :

Now let me give you some points demolishing your faith of denying Sunnah .

1 -You claim that Quran says it is the only source . Then why does Quran itself tells us to ask others ?

And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not! -

2 - The ones who wrote Hadith did follow the teachings of Quran and used its way .

A - Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."
B - O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.
C - And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you,
D - O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.

In the first one , Quran gives instructions to ask for evidence in anything and not accept whatever told . In the second one , Quran tells us to be investigate what we are told . In the third one , Quran tells us to be patient in investigating evidence . In the fourth one , Quran tells us to not accuse with no proof .
Now , these rules are done correctly by the scholars of Hadith while you who deny Sunnah do the opposite . You don't follow the third one which tells us to be patient in finding evidence . When one writes Hadith , he travels great distances to make sure of every single piece of information he is told . And you who sit in your house with air conditioning have no right object on this method . And when it comes to the forth one , Allah tells us to avoid negative assumptions while you simply say Hadith is corrupted and that the writers are liars and hypocrites . You even go to call the companions hypocrites !!

3 - History mentions a huge range of claims and accusations against Quran and else . Why don't we EVER hear about deniers of Sunnah in the time of the prophet peace upon him and his companions ? Why didn't anyone at all say that we must ONLY follow Quran and abandon anything else ? You talk about baseless theories accusing Hadith and I'm talking rationally here . If this path you're going down is really true , then how come no one noticed ? There's a difference between different explanations of verses and between an essential matter such as this .


4 - Through this method which you hate so much and make fun of , we know that there is a man called "Muhammad" and that there are people who lived with him called "Companions" and that Allah sent a book to him called "Quran" . So without this method , we loose our history . And based on that , anyone can deny that there was ever a man called Muhammad - peace upon him - and and deny that there were companions . In fact , anyone can deny anything with this method you follow . I for example can deny that there was world war one . How can you ever object on me ? I didn't see it and only heard about it from people who heard about it from others . Then it must be a fable .

[QuranSearchCom]

As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers and sisters,

While it is great for all of us to interact with one another, and while it is healthy to disagree, but we should not pass the line of fitnah.  If fitnah seems to emerge then it becomes a duty for the Muslims to work on putting it out.  This also goes for treatment towards the disbelievers as well.

All I wanted to say is this:  If you guys want me to freeze this thread, then I can do so.  I won't interfere unless the brotherhood is being compromised.  We're all adults here, and we're all brothers and sisters in Islam.  Just please keep in mind that at the end of the day, we are Believers.  Personally, I don't agree at all with the claim that we, humans, originated from animals.  Man is a different creation, and is a newer creation, relatively speaking.  Now, if a brother or sister insists that we evolved from animals, and they feel very strongly about it, and they feel that they have strong proofs from the Holy Quran to back their claim up, then I'll just have to agree to disagree with him/her.  The reason is because his/her view isn't a threat to any of Islam's Pillars.  It's a side and minor point.  So whether I am right or wrong on it, it's minor.  The same with the brother or sister.

This is my input.  May Allah Almighty bless you all.  Ameen.

Your brother,
Osama Abdallah

[mclinkin94]

[Quran 31:6] Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless HADITH, and thus divert others from the path of God without knowledge, and take it in vain. These have incurred a shameful retribution.

Have not I said that you'd go as low as to forge verses in Quran and explain it in absurd ways ? Not even one translation here says what you claim :
http://quran.com/31/6
You're just so desperate to say "I'm right and you're wrong" even if it's by altering what's in Quran for your own selfish liking . That is why someone must be here to clarify to people that what you do is nothing of Islam . And get this , Quran is nothing like the corrupted books of Jews and Christians , one try and you'll get busted . Let alone if it's with someone who speaks the native language of the book . [/quote]

Did you not see my point? This Quranic verse is exactly what you are doing. Upholding baseless hadith and diverting others from the path of God.....By upholding hadiths that deny evolution, you divert others from the path of God.

So I am Forging evidene. Quran 31:6 says "hadith". Hadith is obviously translated as idle talk, because the ahadith IS idle talk....

1.) The majority contradict Science and reality (unless you wanna say that you should dip your fly in the drink twice or that on the 6th day of Friday afternoon Allah created humans).

My God ! Never thought you were THAT ignorant ! We take it as a scientific miracle and you see it as an error ?!
First of all o one who holds no shred of shame , just because you feel disgusted it doesn't mean that this saying is wrong .

You take Allah creating Humans on friday afternoon and dipping your fly in the drink as a scientific miracle? I don't know what textbook your reading.

Secondly , I'll just give you the link and let you see how you reject things based on your liking .
http://www.kaheel7.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=537
And I swear to the lord that anything you call an "error" is in a similar way . It doesn't go like this . We won't discard a major part of Islam just because you mister are "grossed" . If so , villagers would stop drinking milk right after milking a cow because the spoiled are disgusted .

I like what this article has to day, but dipping your fly in your drink a second time is not going to clean the drink up for you as the hadiths implies. This actually further supports my point,  the prophet said something similar to that, but it got wrongfully transmitted and the meaning therefore changed.

Just like the telephone game that we played back in grade school.

Says who ? The guy who doesn't know the first thing about this science ?! If you really read Quran - and you clearly don't - you would have immediately accepted it , but desires are dangerous indeed .

I said the science of hadith (hadith collection) is not a science its an art. It is not a perfect science, we find sahih hadiths contradictory....that proves my point.

A - Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."
B - O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.
C - And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you,
D - O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.

In the first one , Quran gives instructions to ask for evidence in anything and not accept whatever told . In the second one , Quran tells us to be investigate what we are told . In the third one , Quran tells us to be patient in investigating evidence . In the fourth one , Quran tells us to not accuse with no proof .
Now , these rules are done correctly by the scholars of Hadith while you who deny Sunnah do the opposite . You don't follow the third one which tells us to be patient in finding evidence . When one writes Hadith , he travels great distances to make sure of every single piece of information he is told . And you who sit in your house with air conditioning have no right object on this method . And when it comes to the forth one , Allah tells us to avoid negative assumptions while you simply say Hadith is corrupted and that the writers are liars and hypocrites . You even go to call the companions hypocrites !![/quote]

First one: Agreed. YOu got evidence for evolution and the nonsense of hadiths
Second one:Agreed. Investigate everything you are told. That include evolution and the Quranic support thereof!
Third one: I follow you there, perhaps I am inpatient--that doesn't invalidate my evidence though.
Fourth one: I never accuse without evidence

You said that they tried really hard to make the hadiths good---how does that mean that hadiths are perfect and how does that mean that EVERYONE did that.

Lastly, I didn't make an assumption with hadiths. I say they are unreliable and I back that up with reasonable claims.

3.) Internal contradictions exist within ''sahih'' hadiths (We all testify to this)

Congrats , you made me say it after refraining from it for a while : Testify my foot ! Since when did "You" mean "We all" ?
The same as what you call errors , they are based on your own weak understanding and "unwillingness" . And every single time you open your mouth you'll only prove it more .

I meant reasonable people testify that there are contradictions in hadiths. There are. There is proof.

I dont' think it is unwillingness when a hadiths says if A then B. And another hadiths says If A then C.

4.) The Quran tells you to not follow any other hadith except the Quran. (MANY MANY times did the Quran tell you that it is the only truth).

You lie . And what a big lie it is . Quran tells time and time again to follow what the prophet says because it is also the revelation of the almighty . You with your upside down logic change what the signs mean to match what you claim . I won't repeat unless necessary .

Lets see if I lied: I already given reasons as to why. Remember my analysis of Quranic verse. It will be below in this post (I quoted mine)

Do they divert others from the path of God?

Yes they do, because people understand the fact of evolution in which hadiths contradict. Muslims then force a hadith interpretation to the Quran that is rather contradictory to the Quran and reality and is dishonest. A fair and honest reading of the Quran brings you in support of evolution. Excuse making brings you in support of the hadiths.[/quote]
Irrelevant rant based on claiming that the myth of "evolution" is a gospel . [/quote]

That is absolutely relevant. The Quran said that through following hadiths, you will divert others from God. That is because the hadiths you uphold are false. This is happening as we speak. Quran brings you in support of evolution. Hadiths don't. So they divert others from Islam.

Indeed the Quran tells us to obey the messenger. But what is the messenger's SOLE duty:

"And obey God and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that the sole duty of the messenger is the deliverance (of the message)" 5:92

"And obey God and obey the messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our messenger is the sole duty of the clear delivery (of the message)" 64:12

..to deliver the message.

Here is the logic:

Premise one: We must obey the messenger
Premise two: The messenger's sole duty is the deliver the message (the message is in verses of the Quran as the Quran also states, the Quran does not say the message is also the oral hadiths)

Conclusion: Therefore we must only obey the message (Quran) in which the messenger has came with.

And you want to delude yourself and others that what the prophet says is not a revelation ? Again , you're the most ignorant of Quran which you claim to follow :

1 By the star when it descends, 2 Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred, 3 Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. 4 It is not but a revelation revealed,

So obeying the messenger is by necessity leading to obey what he says . Twist it however you like , that's what it is and that's what the nation understood until this species called "Sunnah rejecters" showed up .

Bro, please go back and address my arguments. I am not twisting, I swear I am not twisting anything. I am being reasonable here, doing nothing but a rational and honest analysis of the Quran.  Please go back and refute this argument.

"Say (O Muhammad), "What is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me to warn you with it and whomever it reaches." 6:19

This testimony which God describes as "Akbar Shahada" (the Greatest Testimony) commands Muhammad to testify that He received the Quran from God. This testimony speaks of only one revelation received by Muhammad from God which is the Quran. If Muhammad truly received other revelations from God (other than the Quran), would we not find any mention of it in the Quran? Would God hide the fact that He gave Muhammad a revelation independent of the Quran and then command us to obey it?

In what world does this sign deny any kind of revelation aside from Quran ? I'll take the logic lessons a little easy and make it step by step :
1 - A guy gets a basket of different kinds of fruits
2 - He says "I got orange"
3 - That in no universe mean he didn't get anything but orange
And I told you over a hundred time how Quran orders us to obey the prophet .

While indeed your logical analysis makes sense, it is not the case with the Quran and I will explain why. NOT once did the Quran say that we are to follow Hadiths in which people said about the prophets. Call me crazy, but, If Allah wanted us to do such, he would have told us to do such.

Think about it this way, If Allah intended that we are to follow the Quran and other revelations, would Allah not make that clear in the Quran? What if Allah's intention was to have us follow the Quran, how would he word his verses--the same way he did.

Telling us the prophet's ONLY duty is to give the message and specifying that the message is the Quran. Why didn't he specify that the message is also gonna be in hadith form??

That is how I see it.

You see that: A completely honest interpretation of the Quran. No excuse making, nothing but the Quran explaining itself. If Allah, the all knowing, all mighty creator wanted you to follow those Hadiths, why didn't he specifically tell us to follow things outside of the Quran? Why did he tell us exactly the opposite.

What I see is a load of rant produced out of a deep hatred of what doesn't match your selfish desires . What I also see is a load of nonsense which you try to make look "scientific" .

I don't see that at all. I see that as a completely honest interpretation as you will see.

And yet again , for over the fifth time maybe , I'll bring what you keep running away from :

running away from? What? I have never done such a thing.

Now let me give you some points demolishing your faith of denying Sunnah .

1 -You claim that Quran says it is the only source . Then why does Quran itself tells us to ask others ?

And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not! -

2 - The ones who wrote Hadith did follow the teachings of Quran and used its way .


3 - History mentions a huge range of claims and accusations against Quran and else . Why don't we EVER hear about deniers of Sunnah in the time of the prophet peace upon him and his companions ? Why didn't anyone at all say that we must ONLY follow Quran and abandon anything else ? You talk about baseless theories accusing Hadith and I'm talking rationally here . If this path you're going down is really true , then how come no one noticed ? There's a difference between different explanations of verses and between an essential matter such as this .


4 - Through this method which you hate so much and make fun of , we know that there is a man called "Muhammad" and that there are people who lived with him called "Companions" and that Allah sent a book to him called "Quran" . So without this method , we loose our history . And based on that , anyone can deny that there was ever a man called Muhammad - peace upon him - and and deny that there were companions . In fact , anyone can deny anything with this method you follow . I for example can deny that there was world war one . How can you ever object on me ? I didn't see it and only heard about it from people who heard about it from others . Then it must be a fable .

I will go at it one by one:

1.) This Quranic verse is telling us to find proof that the Quran is true by asking others. By investigating. This is irrelevant to the point you are trying to make.

I also wanted to say something about another verse that I know you will bring up:
"O you believe, obey God and obey the messenger and also those in charge among you"

You use the words "those in charge among you" in order to claim that the religious guru's have a right according to the Quran to have authority over the people and that they should be obeyed without question.

The term "those in charge among you" covers a wide variety of people. In order to determine who is actually entitled to have rightful authority over us, it would be quite logical to assert that this authority must be in accordance to God's law, in other words it must be a God given authority, and not an authority that is self claimed.

The following are some examples of rightful and righteous authority that is in harmony with the Quranic teachings:

• For a young boy/girl they should obey their parents who have authority over them during their younge dependent years.
• For a wife, she must obey her husband (in righteousness) as God decreed in the Quran.
• For an employee, he/she must obey their boss who has authority over them, but only within the framework of the profession
• For citizens, they must obey the established authorities (e.g. the courts, the police, etc). They must obey the law of the land as long as it does not violate God's law.

[li]
[/li][/list]

2.) Obviously not because you have hadiths that contradict the QUran. Also not everyone is a perfect follower of Quran. Also there were obviously those who fabricated hadiths who weren't even Muslim. Also there are also hypocrites. Further there is also an extremely important point! The Quran is for all times and places as it states. So the science of the Quran could not have been known by hadith writers, so they put THEIR interpretation of the Quran in hadiths (like flat earth and other nonsense)..Do I have to go on?

3.) That is because the prophet Muhammad was completely following the Quran and made nothing new. He made no innovations. So if the prophet was following the Quran (that is a MUST) then everyone else was following the Quran. There was no "external sunnah", the Quran is the only sunnah. All of the nonsense you hear in hadiths are innovations and made and laws by the hadith makers. All the prophet did was clear up any problems the companions had with the Quran.

"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book (the Quran) fully detailed ?" 6:114 The Quran is fully detailed when it comes to religious matters and a source of law........If you say otherwise, then you are rejecting the Quran. How exactly can you reasonably avoid this?? The only way out is through excuse making...

4.) You are presenting a reason to believe in hadiths, because they provide History. I tell you its not true history its false history.

Further denying WW1 is ridiculous as we have evidence and even pictures. Denying a war from 1000+ years ago is more reasonable.


I hope we can reach a consensus.

[mclinkin94]

As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers and sisters,

While it is great for all of us to interact with one another, and while it is healthy to disagree, but we should not pass the line of fitnah.  If fitnah seems to emerge then it becomes a duty for the Muslims to work on putting it out.  This also goes for treatment towards the disbelievers as well.

All I wanted to say is this:  If you guys want me to freeze this thread, then I can do so.  I won't interfere unless the brotherhood is being compromised.  We're all adults here, and we're all brothers and sisters in Islam.  Just please keep in mind that at the end of the day, we are Believers.  Personally, I don't agree at all with the claim that we, humans, originated from animals.  Man is a different creation, and is a newer creation, relatively speaking.  Now, if a brother or sister insists that we evolved from animals, and they feel very strongly about it, and they feel that they have strong proofs from the Holy Quran to back their claim up, then I'll just have to agree to disagree with him/her.  The reason is because his/her view isn't a threat to any of Islam's Pillars.  It's a side and minor point.  So whether I am right or wrong on it, it's minor.  The same with the brother or sister.

This is my input.  May Allah Almighty bless you all.  Ameen.

Your brother,
Osama Abdallah

Hello brother Osama, thank you very much for your kind statements. Indeed you are right and we will push to be as respectful as others.

May I ask a favor. Can you please post why you disagree with the Quranic support for evolution. I'm willing to change my standpoint if presented with  honest, reasonable and logical counter-arguments. Unfortunately, I believe the Quran has more than just a casual reference to evolution.

Please if you can, please discuss with me this topic. I search for truth and I search in honesty and I therefore seek knowledge.

Thank you very much for your efforts in this site! Its helped me tremendously!

[Muslimkid]

This has been a very interesting thread to follow 

[mclinkin94]

This has been a very interesting thread to follow 

I hope this debate continues. I know it is very hard for people to let go of thing they were brought up believing, but I think it is important to search for truth and nothing but. That means we shouldn't be making excuses for what the Quran supports or not, it should be entirely on logic and reason, not excuse making.

You can ask any scientist or visit any peer-reviewed journal for this information: Evolutionary, we can say that life formed from the Earth (or what became to be the earth). Their mode of reproduction was asexual. Then sexual reproduction occurred which allowed for more variation and more complexity in organisms. Through sexual reproduction, more variation more mutation occurred and allowed extremely complex multicellular organisms capable of thought, like humans to develop. These are known facts.

The Quran highlights this in Quran 32:7-9 (That what this post has been about mostly).

Quran 32:7 Who made good/better everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

^Creation began out of the Earth. Notice the word "began", That means that Allah started creation from the Earth.

Quran 32:8 Then He made his posterity out of the extract of a liquid disdained.

^THEN, sexual reproduction formed. (so life began forming and then sexual reproduction occured)

Quran 32:9 Then He proportioned him and breathed into him from His [created] soul and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

^After the development of sexual reproduction, we were further proportioned and given higher intelligence. (Note: This verse is also referring to Adam-the father of the first group of humans who got sexually isolated from the others. This verse is referring to Adam as well because he was proportioned and given higher intelligence just as other Quranic verses say).


OUt of all of the scientific facts the Quran has, this one is THE. STRONGEST. ONE.

This one definitely beats some of the other scientific miracles in the Quran. This one is absolutely immense in accuracy! Here you have Allah highlighting how he created us and the steps he used. He tells us that he started out creation from the Earth, then sexual reproduction developed and then humans formed. Well-said!

[Black Muslim]

then I'll just have to agree to disagree with him/her.  The reason is because his/her view isn't a threat to any of Islam's Pillars.  It's a side and minor point.

It may not be of the pillars but this is no minor thing wither we're talking about the method of creation or rejecting half of Islam .

Did you not see my point? This Quranic verse is exactly what you are doing. Upholding baseless hadith and diverting others from the path of God.....By upholding hadiths that deny evolution, you divert others from the path of God.

So I am Forging evidene. Quran 31:6 says "hadith". Hadith is obviously translated as idle talk, because the ahadith IS idle talk....

I had a lot of things to do with school and all so I hope you didn't think I had nothing to respond with . The sign talks about the idle (Amusement) of talk , that's correct . But you use your acrobatic explanations to come out with whatever you want . On what planet does that refer to Hadith ? Since when did "Idle of Talk" = "Talk" let alone "Best of talk" ? Once again , you talk as if a pig turning into an elephant and a bear into a whale is a fact . Brushing that aside gives no meaning to your point here .

You take Allah creating Humans on friday afternoon and dipping your fly in the drink as a scientific miracle? I don't know what textbook your reading.

No seriously , on what planet do you live ? And just using rants about how "This is absurd !" doesn't make something wrong . You try to say "Look at that ! This is so stupid and unbelievable ! It must be corruption and lies !" but you don't back up your words with anything .

I like what this article has to day, but dipping your fly in your drink a second time is not going to clean the drink up for you as the hadiths implies. This actually further supports my point,  the prophet said something similar to that, but it got wrongfully transmitted and the meaning therefore changed.

I swear I knew you'd say such a thing . So I prepared another link :
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/showthread.php?55209-%C7%E1%C7%DA%CC%C7%D2-%C7%E1%DA%E1%E3%ED-%DD%ED-%CD%CF%ED%CB-%C7%E1%D0%C8%C7%C8-%E6%C7%E1%D1%CF-%DA%E1%EC-%C7%E1%D3%DD%E1%C9-%C7%E1%D1%DA%C7%DA
And I know that even if the fly talks and says "You can clean your drink by dipping me in it again" you'd still disbelieve and ask for the testimony o two bees maybe !

Just like the telephone game that we played back in grade school.

Go jump outta window .

I said the science of hadith (hadith collection) is not a science its an art. It is not a perfect science, we find sahih hadiths contradictory....that proves my point.

Art my foot . Pointless and baseless claim . And once again , I won't let you escape answering : On what bases do you know history if you're going to abandon the most accurate perfected way of doing so ?

First one: Agreed. YOu got evidence for evolution and the nonsense of hadiths

Again , go jump outta window .

Third one: I follow you there, perhaps I am inpatient--that doesn't invalidate my evidence though.

Yes it does . If you're not willing to learn then shut it and spare us .

Fourth one: I never accuse without evidence

False , you accuse with forged evidence and dust you think is evidence .

You said that they tried really hard to make the hadiths good---how does that mean that hadiths are perfect and how does that mean that EVERYONE did that.

The lord said he will protect the revelation which he sent and that's the bottom of the line .

I meant reasonable people testify that there are contradictions in hadiths. There are. There is proof.

Since when did "A nobody who doesn't know what he's talking about" mean "Reasonable people" ?

I dont' think it is unwillingness when a hadiths says if A then B. And another hadiths says If A then C.

Once again , nothing to back it up . But in order to burst your bubble before it pops up , I'll say this : When someone says "I went to school today then dropped by my friend's house then I went home" and then he says "I went to school and returned home later" then no sane person can say there is a contradiction . When a companion mentions an incident in details and another mentions the general idea of what happened , no one can dare say there is a contradiction .

That is absolutely relevant. The Quran said that through following hadiths, you will divert others from God. That is because the hadiths you uphold are false. This is happening as we speak. Quran brings you in support of evolution. Hadiths don't. So they divert others from Islam.

You need to be careful . I'm holding my nerves . If it was someone who can't and you were in front of them , you'll get punched . You desperately try to push your way through with what's in bold thinking that I'm as foolish as to let you do so . And until you prove it - and you won't - the rest of what you claim is nothing .

Bro,

With such huge differences in basis of Islam , don't call me brother . You don't see me calling Shias so do you ?

please go back and address my arguments. I am not twisting, I swear I am not twisting anything. I am being reasonable here, doing nothing but a rational and honest analysis of the Quran.  Please go back and refute this argument.

And I swear to the lord of heaven and Earth and what's between them that you're either lying or not knowing what you're talking about . We both swore , so go ahead and try to prove that you're the one being honest and right .

While indeed your logical analysis makes sense, it is not the case with the Quran and I will explain why. NOT once did the Quran say that we are to follow Hadiths in which people said about the prophets. Call me crazy, but, If Allah wanted us to do such, he would have told us to do such.

Come again ? Are all these signs in this same post ordering to follow the sayings of the prophet written with invisible ink ?

Think about it this way, If Allah intended that we are to follow the Quran and other revelations, would Allah not make that clear in the Quran? What if Allah's intention was to have us follow the Quran, how would he word his verses--the same way he did.

Telling us the prophet's ONLY duty is to give the message and specifying that the message is the Quran. Why didn't he specify that the message is also gonna be in hadith form??

That is how I see it.

There's no meaning to this if you don't answer what's before it .

running away from? What? I have never done such a thing.

Then what do we call ignoring all these long quotes for five times ?

I also wanted to say something about another verse that I know you will bring up:
"O you believe, obey God and obey the messenger and also those in charge among you"

You use the words "those in charge among you" in order to claim that the religious guru's have a right according to the Quran to have authority over the people and that they should be obeyed without question.

The term "those in charge among you" covers a wide variety of people. In order to determine who is actually entitled to have rightful authority over us, it would be quite logical to assert that this authority must be in accordance to God's law, in other words it must be a God given authority, and not an authority that is self claimed.

The following are some examples of rightful and righteous authority that is in harmony with the Quranic teachings:

    For a young boy/girl they should obey their parents who have authority over them during their younge dependent years.
    For a wife, she must obey her husband (in righteousness) as God decreed in the Quran.
    For an employee, he/she must obey their boss who has authority over them, but only within the framework of the profession
    For citizens, they must obey the established authorities (e.g. the courts, the police, etc). They must obey the law of the land as long as it does not violate God's law.

Actually , it didn't cross my mind . There are other things enough to prove you wrong .

1.) This Quranic verse is telling us to find proof that the Quran is true by asking others. By investigating. This is irrelevant to the point you are trying to make.

How come ? It says to ask people rather than going to Quran itself . According to your logic , this sign is corrupted .

2.) Obviously not because you have hadiths that contradict the QUran.

Vaguely saying "Obviously" doesn't help you .

Also not everyone is a perfect follower of Quran.

The point is ?

Also there were obviously those who fabricated hadiths who weren't even Muslim.

And you think people were so foolish as to be unable to identify what's fabricated ? Or do you think they were as lazy as you are ? One more thing , non Muslims are the first to be not accepted in taking Hadith . That's one of the most basic rules which I can clearly see you didn't bother read .

Also there are also hypocrites.

"Also" I already answered that .

Further there is also an extremely important point! The Quran is for all times and places as it states. So the science of the Quran could not have been known by hadith writers, so they put THEIR interpretation of the Quran in hadiths (like flat earth and other nonsense)..Do I have to go on?

Come again ? Flat what ? Now you listen Mr.Nonsense , you're not dealing with kindergarten children here . Any attempt to fool me is futile . And SERIOUSLY , on what planet do you live ?! A majority of scholars agreed that Earth is spherical and you rant about flat Earth ? Did you see now that you heard some stuff from here and there and got biased over it ? You have no idea of what you hate or what you defend . One more thing , if there is a sign with multiple possible explanations and Hadith says that only one of them is correct and states it , that's the end of the story . This doesn't in anyway contradict the fact that Quran is suitable for all times .

3.) That is because the prophet Muhammad was completely following the Quran and made nothing new. He made no innovations. So if the prophet was following the Quran (that is a MUST) then everyone else was following the Quran. There was no "external sunnah", the Quran is the only sunnah. All of the nonsense you hear in hadiths are innovations and made and laws by the hadith makers. All the prophet did was clear up any problems the companions had with the Quran.

You know what , jump in a volcano . Baseless rant yet again which you clearly cannot back up .

"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book (the Quran) fully detailed ?" 6:114 The Quran is fully detailed when it comes to religious matters and a source of law........If you say otherwise, then you are rejecting the Quran. How exactly can you reasonably avoid this?? The only way out is through excuse making...

So Allah is the one to set laws for us . You point is ? Are you playing around ?! I told you time and time again that Sunnah is also a revelation and I even brought you the start of the star Surah ! And no , I'm not the one rejecting Quran , you are the one rejecting Islam and inventing whatever he feels like .

4.) You are presenting a reason to believe in hadiths, because they provide History. I tell you its not true history its false history.

For the third or fourth time , baseless rant .

Further denying WW1 is ridiculous as we have evidence and even pictures. Denying a war from 1000+ years ago is more reasonable.

Why so ? Why do need to believe it happened ? I can just say that large numbers of people conspired and made this myth called WW1 . Here , I'm using the same logic you use . I don't deny it of course .

I hope this debate continues. I know it is very hard for people to let go of thing they were brought up believing, but I think it is important to search for truth and nothing but. That means we shouldn't be making excuses for what the Quran supports or not, it should be entirely on logic and reason, not excuse making.

You have seriously gotta be kidding me . Are not you the one who told the Canadian "My parents brought me on that 1+1=2" ? Yet , there's no point in what you say in the first place .

You can ask any scientist or visit any peer-reviewed journal for this information: Evolutionary, we can say that life formed from the Earth (or what became to be the earth). Their mode of reproduction was asexual. Then sexual reproduction occurred which allowed for more variation and more complexity in organisms. Through sexual reproduction, more variation more mutation occurred and allowed extremely complex multicellular organisms capable of thought, like humans to develop. These are known facts.

So let me get this straight : Evolution is right because they teach it in universities ? Now who's the one who doesn't want to abandon what he was brought up on ?

OUt of all of the scientific facts the Quran has, this one is THE. STRONGEST. ONE.

Yeah right , and dinosaurs became birds because they were trying to catch flies . Wait  , you do believe so !

One last thing to say is that I'm not fooled by your masks . You're a bad actor actually . You try to look like an innocent person terrorized and insulted by a pope or something . I never forget what makes me angry , that includes your lack of basic manner when talking about Allah and Islam and the prophet peace upon him and his companions . And unless you learn , don't expect me to treat you with respect . I had more respectful arguments with Christians and even Atheists .

[mclinkin94]

It may not be of the pillars but this is no minor thing wither we're talking about the method of creation or rejecting half of Islam .

The method of creation is clear in the Quran. You are the one rejecting it.

Did you not see my point? This Quranic verse is exactly what you are doing. Upholding baseless hadith and diverting others from the path of God.....By upholding hadiths that deny evolution, you divert others from the path of God.

So I am Forging evidene. Quran 31:6 says "hadith". Hadith is obviously translated as idle talk, because the ahadith IS idle talk....

I had a lot of things to do with school and all so I hope you didn't think I had nothing to respond with . The sign talks about the idle (Amusement) of talk , that's correct . But you use your acrobatic explanations to come out with whatever you want . On what planet does that refer to Hadith ? Since when did "Idle of Talk" = "Talk" let alone "Best of talk" ? Once again , you talk as if a pig turning into an elephant and a bear into a whale is a fact . Brushing that aside gives no meaning to your point here .

Hadith is exactly that. This is not an acrobatic explanation. Do you define acrobatic explanations as reasonable explanations? I don't get how any of it is acrobatic. Are you saying that the Hadiths that you follow are not the same as the type of hadith the Quran is referring to? I disagree.  Why do you think they were named Hadiths?? My argument remains, the Quran is referring to what you are doing--diverting others from the path of God through using baseless hadiths.

Secondly, the Quran refers to itself as a hadith:

God has revealed herein the best hadith; a book that is consistent, and points out both ways." 39:23

"Let them produce a hadith like this, if they are truthful." 52:34

"Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this hadith; we will lead them on whence they never perceive." 68:44

The Quran is a hadith, but it certainly isn't a baseless hadith. The hadiths you follow are baseless both logically (the way it is transmitted) and scientifically (how it contradicts science).

You take Allah creating Humans on friday afternoon and dipping your fly in the drink as a scientific miracle? I don't know what textbook your reading.

No seriously , on what planet do you live ? And just using rants about how "This is absurd !" doesn't make something wrong . You try to say "Look at that ! This is so stupid and unbelievable ! It must be corruption and lies !" but you don't back up your words with anything .

The scientific method as well as reasoned logic is how I determine if something is factually absurd. Humans created in literal days at a certain day (friday) as your 'sahih' hadith (an oxymoron) implies is factually absurd. Dipping your fly on a drink again is not going to clean the drink nor do anything. Your faith in hadiths is blind--the worst kind. Science has ruled that out completely, there is not way those could be true. Simple as that.

I like what this article has to day, but dipping your fly in your drink a second time is not going to clean the drink up for you as the hadiths implies. This actually further supports my point,  the prophet said something similar to that, but it got wrongfully transmitted and the meaning therefore changed.

I swear I knew you'd say such a thing . So I prepared another link :
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/showthread.php?55209-%C7%E1%C7%DA%CC%C7%D2-%C7%E1%DA%E1%E3%ED-%DD%ED-%CD%CF%ED%CB-%C7%E1%D0%C8%C7%C8-%E6%C7%E1%D1%CF-%DA%E1%EC-%C7%E1%D3%DD%E1%C9-%C7%E1%D1%DA%C7%DA
And I know that even if the fly talks and says "You can clean your drink by dipping me in it again" you'd still disbelieve and ask for the testimony o two bees maybe !

I'm still not compelled. It is way more reasonable to say that the prophet said something similar, but the people quoted him wrongly-as we have seen with many contradictory sahih hadiths. Just like the telephone game--have you ever played it? How often is the last speech the same as the first? Secondly, why don't we do an experiment--dip the fly in the drink once and measure the amount of pathogens. Then dip it again with the other wing and measure the amount of pathogens. What do you think will occur?

Just like the telephone game that we played back in grade school.

Go jump outta window .

Wow you really debunked me there. You know how bad the telephone game can get at giving and spreading information.

I said the science of hadith (hadith collection) is not a science its an art. It is not a perfect science, we find sahih hadiths contradictory....that proves my point.

Art my foot . Pointless and baseless claim . And once again , I won't let you escape answering : On what bases do you know history if you're going to abandon the most accurate perfected way of doing so ?

I don't appreciate how you reject evidence and call your hadiths perfect. IT si not a perfect science, it is an art that isn't even competent.

Third one: I follow you there, perhaps I am inpatient--that doesn't invalidate my evidence though.

Yes it does . If you're not willing to learn then shut it and spare us .

So you are saying that being impatient necessarily leads you to the wrong conclusion. That is logically incoherent. Does not invalidate my evidence, you must address the points. I do agree that perhaps some of my understanding and yours as well are impatient, I am willing to find the truth if good arguments are made. I haven't gotten those good arguments [/quote]

Fourth one: I never accuse without evidence

False , you accuse with forged evidence and dust you think is evidence .

LOL, The evidence for evolution (especially the genetic evidence) and the Quranic teaching is forged, but not the hadith..LOL

The lord said he will protect the revelation which he sent and that's the bottom of the line .

Think about it. If the Quran was referring to Hadiths as being protected, then that would be a Quranic contradiction because hadiths are recognized to be unprotected. You have various contradictions between the Quran and Hadith. Between hadith and Hadith.

What does the Quran mean by protecting the revelation? In other words, did the Quran tell the prophet what the revelation was? Did the Quran say it was hadiths? NO!

"Say (O Muhammad), "What is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me to warn you with it and whomever it reaches." 6:19

This testimony which God describes as "Akbar Shahada" (the Greatest Testimony) commands Muhammad to testify that He received the Quran from God. This testimony speaks of only one revelation received by Muhammad from God which is the Quran. If Muhammad truly received other revelations from God (other than the Quran), would we not find any mention of it in the Quran? Would God hide the fact that He gave Muhammad a revelation independent of the Quran and then command us to obey it?

I meant reasonable people testify that there are contradictions in hadiths. There are. There is proof.

Since when did "A nobody who doesn't know what he's talking about" mean "Reasonable people" ?

I dont' think it is unwillingness when a hadiths says if A then B. And another hadiths says If A then C.

Once again , nothing to back it up . But in order to burst your bubble before it pops up , I'll say this : When someone says "I went to school today then dropped by my friend's house then I went home" and then he says "I went to school and returned home later" then no sane person can say there is a contradiction . When a companion mentions an incident in details and another mentions the general idea of what happened , no one can dare say there is a contradiction .

I don't think you know about logical fallacies. Why do I debate with someone who doesn't understand logical fallacies? If a hadith says if x THEN Y and another hadith says if x THEN z, it is a contradiction.

Here is an example:

Narrated Ibn Abbas:
The last Verse (in the Quran) revealed to the Prophet was the Verse dealing with
usury (i.e. Riba). [Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, #67]
 
Narrated Al-Bara:
 
and the last Verse that was revealed was: "They ask you for a legal verdict, Say:
Allah's directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs."
(4.176) [Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, #129]
The same is also mentioned in Sahih Muslim.

That is absolutely relevant. The Quran said that through following hadiths, you will divert others from God. That is because the hadiths you uphold are false. This is happening as we speak. Quran brings you in support of evolution. Hadiths don't. So they divert others from Islam.

You need to be careful . I'm holding my nerves . If it was someone who can't and you were in front of them , you'll get punched . You desperately try to push your way through with what's in bold thinking that I'm as foolish as to let you do so . And until you prove it - and you won't - the rest of what you claim is nothing .

Why didn't you address my argument again? Of course I am getting on your nerves, I am questioning your blatantly false beliefs. I think you know that I am right, but you are just unwilling to reject hadiths because they provide good explanations for you. You've said this before, "if we reject hadiths, then how do we account for...". this is again logically incoherent. It doesn't matter what hadiths explain, you cannot acccept them and remain reasonable. The Quran prohibits it and it is actually a Quranic prophesy. There will be people like you who uphold BASELESS hadiths and divert others from the path of God. Look at how clear that verse is and how accurate it is. Allahu Akbar!

With such huge differences in basis of Islam , don't call me brother . You don't see me calling Shias so do you ?

I call shiahs brother. I call Christians brother. I call athiests brother. Shias are just like you--misinformed and upholding baseless hadiths.

You say "my scholars are better than yours", "my hadiths are better than yours".

Why don't you listen to a Shia Scholar making a belief based on his false hadiths.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfnr6I8B5wY

You are no better than him. Unfortunately, I agree with him. Based on the hadith fabrications about Aisha saying things about the prophet--Aisha appears to be a hypocrite. But I doubt that is the real Aisha and her sayings.

While indeed your logical analysis makes sense, it is not the case with the Quran and I will explain why. NOT once did the Quran say that we are to follow Hadiths in which people said about the prophets. Call me crazy, but, If Allah wanted us to do such, he would have told us to do such.

Come again ? Are all these signs in this same post ordering to follow the sayings of the prophet written with invisible ink ?

If Allah wanted us to follow something besides the Quran, He would have told us so. But he told us the complete opposite in the Quran.

"Obey the messenger" means to obey ONLY the message he came with. And the message that the prophet came with is nothing more than the Quran--as the Quran states. Why didn't it say that there would be other messages?

Think about it this way, If Allah intended that we are to follow the Quran and other revelations, would Allah not make that clear in the Quran? What if Allah's intention was to have us follow the Quran, how would he word his verses--the same way he did.

Telling us the prophet's ONLY duty is to give the message and specifying that the message is the Quran. Why didn't he specify that the message is also gonna be in hadith form??

That is how I see it.

There's no meaning to this if you don't answer what's before it .

WHy don't you answer. There IS meaning to it.

running away from? What? I have never done such a thing.

Then what do we call ignoring all these long quotes for five times ?

What quotes are you referring to, I have answered everything? Bring anything that remains unanswered to my attention and I will happily reply.

1.) This Quranic verse is telling us to find proof that the Quran is true by asking others. By investigating. This is irrelevant to the point you are trying to make.

How come ? It says to ask people rather than going to Quran itself . According to your logic , this sign is corrupted .

Firstly, it is referring to the people back then and is un-applicable to us. But even if it was applicable to us, then it would would mean to get testimony from others AND reflecting upon them! Not just blindly accepting them...this is obvious. But too much for you to make that conclusion.

2.) Obviously not because you have hadiths that contradict the QUran.

Vaguely saying "Obviously" doesn't help you .

If you want, I could flood this blog with examples. Let me know.

Also not everyone is a perfect follower of Quran.

The point is ?

The point is we cannot count on the people who wrote hadiths, because not all of them are perfect followers or understanders of the Quran. Do I seriously have to lay everything out for you like this? Please think for yourself.

Also there were obviously those who fabricated hadiths who weren't even Muslim.

And you think people were so foolish as to be unable to identify what's fabricated ? Or do you think they were as lazy as you are ? One more thing , non Muslims are the first to be not accepted in taking Hadith . That's one of the most basic rules which I can clearly see you didn't bother read .

YES! You have evidence of that through hadith contradictions. Do you know how they primarily determine whether a hadith is authentic, by looking at the line of transmission and determining whether they have good character? Think now; Couldn't the fabricator, also fabricate the Hadith line of transmission?

Also there are also hypocrites.

"Also" I already answered that .

You failed to read my question in context. You are saying that you can trust hadiths because those who said it are followers of the Quran, Is say:

-Some aren't followers of the Quran
-Some are ignorant of parts the Quran
-Some are hypocrites

^this debunks your argument.

Further there is also an extremely important point! The Quran is for all times and places as it states. So the science of the Quran could not have been known by hadith writers, so they put THEIR interpretation of the Quran in hadiths (like flat earth and other nonsense)..Do I have to go on?

Come again ? Flat what ? Now you listen Mr.Nonsense , you're not dealing with kindergarten children here . Any attempt to fool me is futile . And SERIOUSLY , on what planet do you live ?! A majority of scholars agreed that Earth is spherical and you rant about flat Earth ? Did you see now that you heard some stuff from here and there and got biased over it ? You have no idea of what you hate or what you defend . One more thing , if there is a sign with multiple possible explanations and Hadith says that only one of them is correct and states it , that's the end of the story . This doesn't in anyway contradict the fact that Quran is suitable for all times .

Are you saying that the Quran doesn't have things that would be understood in the future? This would reject the QUran's timelessness, Osama's entire work on scientific miracles of the QUran that have just been discovered and it would contradict this verse:

"For every (revealed) tiding there is a term set for its fulfillment
and in time you will come to know." Qur'an 6: 67.

3.) That is because the prophet Muhammad was completely following the Quran and made nothing new. He made no innovations. So if the prophet was following the Quran (that is a MUST) then everyone else was following the Quran. There was no "external sunnah", the Quran is the only sunnah. All of the nonsense you hear in hadiths are innovations and made and laws by the hadith makers. All the prophet did was clear up any problems the companions had with the Quran.

You know what , jump in a volcano . Baseless rant yet again which you clearly cannot back up .

Which hadith, other than this (Quran), do they uphold?" 77:50
-
"These are God's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 45:6

Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6:114

"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book (the Quran) fully detailed ?" 6:114 The Quran is fully detailed when it comes to religious matters and a source of law........If you say otherwise, then you are rejecting the Quran. How exactly can you reasonably avoid this?? The only way out is through excuse making...

So Allah is the one to set laws for us . You point is ? Are you playing around ?! I told you time and time again that Sunnah is also a revelation and I even brought you the start of the star Surah ! And no , I'm not the one rejecting Quran , you are the one rejecting Islam and inventing whatever he feels like .

You have the burden of proof of saying why the Sunnah is also a revelation brought to us. This is especially true since the Quran says that you are to only follow what it says as a source of law. Does the Quran refer you to the Sunnah, if so, prove it. I'll be waiting for this one.

4.) You are presenting a reason to believe in hadiths, because they provide History. I tell you its not true history its false history.

For the third or fourth time , baseless rant .

Nah, I am simply presenting the reason why you admitted that you are unwilling to reject hadiths. It is because they provide vital historical explanations for you. But as we have just seen, they aren't very accurate.

Further denying WW1 is ridiculous as we have evidence and even pictures. Denying a war from 1000+ years ago is more reasonable.

Why so ? Why do need to believe it happened ? I can just say that large numbers of people conspired and made this myth called WW1 . Here , I'm using the same logic you use . I don't deny it of course .

If WW1 was transmitted from speech like the telephone game and those speeches have contradictions, then you can say that the events at WW1 are questionable. That is my logic.

I hope this debate continues. I know it is very hard for people to let go of thing they were brought up believing, but I think it is important to search for truth and nothing but. That means we shouldn't be making excuses for what the Quran supports or not, it should be entirely on logic and reason, not excuse making.

You have seriously gotta be kidding me . Are not you the one who told the Canadian "My parents brought me on that 1+1=2" ? Yet , there's no point in what you say in the first place .

Did you not get my point? I said that we shouldn't make excuses to believing something, it should be entirely on logic/reason/evidence/rationality/intellectual honesty.

So if your parents taught you that 1+1=3, and I present reasons as to why the answer is 2, you shouldn't make excuses to justify your initial statement.

You can ask any scientist or visit any peer-reviewed journal for this information: Evolutionary, we can say that life formed from the Earth (or what became to be the earth). Their mode of reproduction was asexual. Then sexual reproduction occurred which allowed for more variation and more complexity in organisms. Through sexual reproduction, more variation more mutation occurred and allowed extremely complex multicellular organisms capable of thought, like humans to develop. These are known facts.

So let me get this straight : Evolution is right because they teach it in universities ? Now who's the one who doesn't want to abandon what he was brought up on ?

Did I say that or did I say that you should analyze those journals and see the evidence for yourself? You must do it while remaining honest and faithful to yourself. There is so much evidence that posting it here would take years.

OUt of all of the scientific facts the Quran has, this one is THE. STRONGEST. ONE.

Yeah right , and dinosaurs became birds because they were trying to catch flies . Wait  , you do believe so !

Ignorance to such a degree! The only cure for this disease is knowledge. PLEASE get  yourself educated, it is not even worth my time to explain this. you have the world's knowledge at the tips of your fingers! The Quran encourages to seek knowledge, so follow that COMMANDMENT.

One last thing to say is that I'm not fooled by your masks . You're a bad actor actually . You try to look like an innocent person terrorized and insulted by a pope or something . I never forget what makes me angry , that includes your lack of basic manner when talking about Allah and Islam and the prophet peace upon him and his companions . And unless you learn , don't expect me to treat you with respect . I had more respectful arguments with Christians and even Atheists .

Lots of emotional arguments here. So I will reject them. I operate on nothing more than logic and reason and rationality and intellectual honesty. If this is too much for you, then I apologize.

I love Allah and I love the prophet Muhammad. NOT the hadith representation of them.

Further, I do admire saying "peace be upon him", but it is not a quranic concept. The Quran doesn't say "peace be upon him" when referring to a prophet, it is a human innovation--but a benign one. I don't reject it, I admire it---