Answering Christianity Research Center

MAIN BOARD (You must register to post) => GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS => Topic started by: MuslimBoy on June 10, 2014, 04:51:58 AM

Title: Quranist?
Post by: MuslimBoy on June 10, 2014, 04:51:58 AM
As'salamu Alaykum,

I have some Quranist friends, They are making many rubbish claims such as Jesus will not return, We does not need to Pray or Fast. (they cite Quran 2:62





Yusuf Ali



Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.



that it does not mention Fast and Pray.), Kabah is an idol (they claim that the current Kabah is Not the Kabah mentioned in Quran and same claim for Mecca) and Most of the Muslims are Pagans etc...... So, What to do?
Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: IA on June 10, 2014, 10:02:56 AM
...
Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: MuslimBoy on June 10, 2014, 12:44:56 PM
The moment you start a discussion with them, it becomes clear to you that they reject history (unintentionally, while trying to reject hadiths, and they don't realise this). So, can a person be more stupid than this?
So, True and they reply that history is also tampered.
Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: IA on June 10, 2014, 01:46:44 PM
...
Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: mclinkin94 on June 10, 2014, 03:23:53 PM
Quote
As'salamu Alaykum,

I have some Quranist friends, They are making many rubbish claims such as Jesus will not return, We does not need to Pray or Fast. (they cite Quran 2:62

There is no Dajjal and all of that end of times lies. Those are found in Christian texts not in the Quran.  The Quran is clear that we are to follow ONLY the Quran:

[Quran 45:6] These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after Allah and His verses will they believe?

If I write a book and say "These are my sentences which I write to you, do not believe in anything besides my sentences", then I would be CLEAR that the sentences in MY book are the only things to be followed. The above verse uses the word "these" meaning these Quranic verses are the only statement pertaining to Islam that we could believe!





Quote
Yusuf Ali

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

that it does not mention Fast and Pray.), Kabah is an idol (they claim that the current Kabah is Not the Kabah mentioned in Quran and same claim for Mecca) and Most of the Muslims are Pagans etc...... So, What to do?

This is not an accurate understanding of the Quran. Quranism is NOT an Islamic sect, it is Islam--and nothing away.

The fanatic Muslims always seem distressed when reminded of this particular verse. Out of prejudice, they do not relish the idea that some Jews and some Christians are destined for heaven. Sadly, they have reduced the religion of Islam to being the religion of the Quran alone and of Muhammad alone! Once again they only show their ignorance with the Quran. It is instated in the Quran that Islam is as old as Abraham.

God is aware that among the Jews, Christians and other creeds there are the pure worshippers of God who lead a righteous life. They too shall be rewarded and will not grieve.

So who among the Christians is God speaking about in 2:62? We are told in 5:72-73 that all who believe in the "trinity" or that Jesus is God in the flesh are disbelievers. Consequently, it is clear that in 2:62 God is not speaking of all Christians. The Christians who uphold the trinity and the divinity of Jesus, the god whom they believe in, are not worshipping the real Almighty God. The god whom they believe in, and who is a third of a trinity, is not the real One Almighty God, but a distorted tri-god image that is not befitting of God Almighty. The god whom they believe in who (allegedly) attained the form of a man (Jesus) and was crucified (allegedly) for our sins, once again is not the real God. The real God is One, Almighty and is unseen. The real God created Jesus rather than share His godliness with Jesus! Therefore, 2:62 does not speak of such Christians.

The words in 2:62 speak of those among the Jews and Christians who uphold God’s absolute authority and worship Him as their only god. They will surely be redeemed into God’s paradise and they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.

Does this verse at all imply that we don't have to pray or fast. Nope, because believers in Islam and Allah follow Allah's rules. If you don't, you are simply a disbeliever. IN fact in Quran 2:62 the criteria for you to not grieve in the hereafter are: Believe in Allah, the last day AND lead a righteous life. Not fasting or praying while knowing you should is not leading a righteous life!

((I crossed out the "in the Quran" part in the verse you posted that I quoted. The Quran does not say that, it just says "those who believe")))

Believers follow Allah's rules. Disbelievers disobey them. This is made clear in the Quran.
Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: Egyptian on June 25, 2014, 01:52:31 PM
As'salamu Alaykum,

I have some Quranist friends, They are making many rubbish claims such as Jesus will not return,

Alaikomalsalam all Brothers ...

1- The belief of the second coming of Jesus was rejected ,doubted not only by the Quranists ,but by some other muslim scholars among them Salafis scholars and grand Imams of Alazhar university.
so it is inaccurate to claim that only the Quranists deny it.


2- Though the Quranists have gone to the extreme with rejecting the traditions , some of their arguments should be taken into consideration.


3- I disagree that the Quran teaches that only those who believe the Jesus is God or trinity are destined to hell, even unitrarians are destined to hell if not accepting Islam ......

"PLZ check my study on the trinity to find out how the teachings of the unitarians goes totally against the teachings of Islam"

the Quran leave no doubt, either you take islam totally with its pure monotheism,its laws ,its last prophet ,or to leave it.... there is no in between  ....


If anyone doubt that,just ask me to provide the  proof text...
Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: mclinkin94 on June 25, 2014, 05:11:32 PM
Quote
3- I disagree that the Quran teaches that only those who believe the Jesus is God or trinity are destined to hell, even unitrarians are destined to hell if not accepting Islam ......

"PLZ check my study on the trinity to find out how the teachings of the unitarians goes totally against the teachings of Islam"

the Quran leave no doubt, either you take islam totally with its pure monotheism,its laws ,its last prophet ,or to leave it.... there is no in between  ....


I don't see how you can reconcile your beliefs with Quran 2:62. Quran 2:62 makes it clear that those who believe in Islam, those who believe in Christianity and those who are Jewish and ANYONE who believes in God and the last day and leads a righteous life will not grieve! The Quran then makes exceptions to that rule throughout (like when it speaks of those who follow the trinity).

How could you argue that Quran 2:62 is not making clear that those who believe in God, last day and leave a righteous life will not grieve?

Is that too much mercy from God for you to believe in? You don't think God would be that merciful?

What is the purpose of human life? To worship Allah. Christians and Jews worship Allah and follow his commands--they are fullfilling their purpose of life.

But wait. The Quran makes further exceptions to this rule (besides the trinity)!

-The Christians and Jews who heard the Quran and deny it are disbelievers! So they are excepted from this rule!
-Anyone who believes in God who has heard Allah's verses in the Quran and denied them are disbelievers!
-The Christians who believe in Jesus' divinity are disbelievers
-The jews who corrupted the scripture are disbelievers
-etc.

So who is Quran 2:62 speaking of?

-The previous Christians and Jews (before Islam)
-The ignorant Christians and Jews who have not heard Allah's verses in the Quran

I don't see any way around this. No matter how many hadiths you post or how many "authentic" sources you have. Nothing will ever change this Quranic standpoint.

Quran 2:62 by the way, makes it clear that you must not only believe in God and the last day--you must also lead a righteous life. The Jews and Christians who hear Allah's verses in the Quran and deny them are not living a righteous life. Same goes with the Muslims who believe the lies that there is another source of law besides the Quran when it was made plain that the Quran is the only source of law.
Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: Black Muslim on June 27, 2014, 12:13:35 PM
Quote
1- The belief of the second coming of Jesus was rejected ,doubted not only by the Quranists ,but by some other muslim scholars among them Salafis scholars and grand Imams of Alazhar university.

If there are clear texts from Quran or Sunnah saying he will return , there is no meanining in anyone - no matter who he or she is - rejecting it .
Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: Egyptian on June 29, 2014, 11:00:12 AM
Quran 2:62 makes it clear that those who believe in Islam, those who believe in Christianity and those who are Jewish and ANYONE who believes in God and the last day and leads a righteous life will not grieve!  The Quran then makes exceptions to that rule throughout (like when it speaks of those who follow the trinity).   


Correction : The Quranic rule and stand point is the following verse:

Holy Quran 3:85 Anyone who desires something other than Islam as a religion will never have it accepted from him, while in the Hereafter he will be among the losers.


the exception : Are those who never heard of Islam after the prophet's mission... eg; the red indians etc....
nowadays few are those who never heard of Islam and many though heard of it,they either had superficial insufficient message or disorted one...
for all those I hope they are forgiven and given justice.....the whole rest without any reasonable doubt destined to hell,according to the Quran....


So who is Quran 2:62 speaking of?
-The previous Christians and Jews (before Islam)
-The ignorant Christians and Jews who have not heard Allah's verses in the Quran


I even disagree partly with that......    The christians before Islam can't be easily included into the noble verse ...   they believed is Jesus as God,and they believed in the last day as bowing in their knees to Jesus the God creator...



The Christians and Jews who heard the Quran and deny it are disbelievers!


If they heard it and believed? they will convert to Islam,withoout doubt.... and God fulfills his promise for them in verse 2:62 .... they are now and only now believe in God as it must be and believe in the day of judgment as it must be and do righteousness as it must be .




Quran 2:62 by the way, makes it clear that you must not only believe in God and the last day--you must also lead a righteous life. The Jews and Christians who hear Allah's verses in the Quran and deny them are not living a righteous life.
[/quote]


the fact is that all those Jews and christians who ever hear Allah's verses in the Quran would deny them (unless some of them convert)...,those are actually the majority of jews and christians,and according to you ,by doing so, they are not living a righteous life. in other words most jews and christians can't be included in the verse 2:62 ...   and are destined to hell ...

again the rule crystal clear
Holy Quran 3:85 Anyone who desires something other than Islam as a religion will never have it accepted from him, while in the Hereafter he will be among the losers.


again the only exception :ignorance of the message,or a distorted message.



Quote from: Black Muslim
If there are clear texts from Quran or Sunnah saying he will return , there is no meanining in anyone - no matter who he or she is - rejecting it .
 

If there are clear texts from Quran or Sunnah saying he will return,then why some Sunni orthodox salafi scholars eg; the Titan Salafi scholar Muhammad Rashid Rida rejected,or doubted it?

After I balanced the arguments for and against the notion of the second coming ,studying throughly the origin of the creed itself in the jewish and christians sources ,checking it in the islamic sources ,I became a second coming skeptic ....

the matter needs more than a post (actually needs a whole thread)... but can be summarized:


1- there is no clear proof of a second coming of jesus or anyone else in the Quran.

2- the most authentic proof text of the notion (in Albukhari) , is narrated by "Abu Hurrairah" , and for some reasons his narratives regarding the beliefs are to be highly doubted "the problem of Kaab Alahbar -Abu Hurrairah link).....

3- The origin of the creed itself from the christian sources shows how it is faked creed, to reason how Jesus couldn't fulfill the messianic prophecies....

several other reasons to be added but that needs a full thread dedicated....

by the way I'm neither Quranist, nor Qadiany ...I'm orthodox Sunni .....   so I don't have any agenda to deny such notion....

peace



Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: mclinkin94 on June 29, 2014, 06:53:43 PM
Quote
Correction : The Quranic rule and stand point is the following verse:

Holy Quran 3:85 Anyone who desires something other than Islam as a religion will never have it accepted from him, while in the Hereafter he will be among the losers.

You are equivocating on the world Islam.

Let me reword Quran 3:85

"Anyone who desires something other than submission to Allah as a religion will never have it accepted from them..

That means the unitarian Christians are submitters. Islam is not limited only to the Quran and Muhammad.

Abraham was a Muslim, Jesus was a Muslim etc. etc.

So I disagree with your usage of this verse.

Quote
I even disagree partly with that......    The christians before Islam can't be easily included into the noble verse ...   they believed is Jesus as God,and they believed in the last day as bowing in their knees to Jesus the God creator...

I would agree with you here. And that is because the Quran made an exception to the rule that Christians will not grieve in the afterlife. Those who follow trinitarian Christianity cannot be saved.


Quote
the fact is that all those Jews and christians who ever hear Allah's verses in the Quran would deny them (unless some of them convert)...,those are actually the majority of jews and christians,and according to you ,by doing so, they are not living a righteous life. in other words most jews and christians can't be included in the verse 2:62 ...   and are destined to hell ...

again the rule crystal clear
Holy Quran 3:85 Anyone who desires something other than Islam as a religion will never have it accepted from him, while in the Hereafter he will be among the losers.

No, not the majority. Many Christians and Jews in the US only hear bad things about Islam--> Terrorism, evil, rape, no women's rights. They are ignorant of Islam.

Again Quran 3:85 does not contradict Quran 2:62.

Quran 2:62 says those who  are righteous believers, those who are righteous Christians and those who are righteous Jews will not grieve.

Righteous believers, Christians and Jews are submitters to Allah. So Quran 3:85 is also speaking about them.
Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: Egyptian on July 06, 2014, 04:55:37 PM



Islam is not limited only to the Quran and Muhammad.
Quote


Islam WAS not limited only to the Quran and Muhammad,before the mission of Mohamed peace be upon him. every prophet was a muslim "submitter to God's will", and his people were muslims as well, with two conditions:

1- being stuck to the original original message the prophet conveyed.
2- following any new message of a succesor prophet.



That means the unitarian Christians are submitters
Quote



You wish them to be so , but the fact "submission to God will" is nothing but being fully Muslim , even those who believe in Jesus as God claim themselves to be sub,itters to God's will...  but just saying so doesn't necessarily means so....  nothing cheaper than words....

Unitarians are NOT muslims ,and destined to hell if not believing in Muhamed peace be upon him as the last messeneger of God , accepting the Quranic laws ,and put an end to their false belief of the nature and rule of Jesus and their concept of the day of judgment.....


Yes again Unitarians are NOT muslims (submitters to God) ,why?


1- Claiming that Unitarians or any others who don't believe in Mohamed as the last prophet of God, makes the act of Allah when he sent Mohamed peace be upon him with Islam to be without meaning....   If it is fine with Unitarians and what they do is Islam ,why would Allah send Mohamed with new message ,new laws, attacking their concept of Jesus ,their concept of the day of judgment?!!! 

2- As you are a Sunna denier, let's quote the Quranic clues ...

Who are those who are NOT Muslims "submitters to God" ...


1- Jews ,Christians and Mushrek ..

Qur’an 3:67: Abraham in truth was not a Jew, neither a Christian; but he was a Muslim and one pure of faith; he was no associator of others with God.

 

what is wrong with Jews and christians ,not being labled as Muslims ?


Holy Quran  9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

Unitarians can never be excluded from the verse .... 

First: What does it mean when Allah says that Jews and christians don't believe in Allah and the last day?

surely it doesn't mean that Jews and christians are atheists who doesn't believe that this world was created by God, neither it means that they don't believe that there is a day of judgment and life after death.....

the prophet already knew that about them....  so the means has to be, that they don't believe in Allah and the day of judgment as truly depicted in the Quran ..... 

in other words any belief of God or the day of judgment contradicts  the Quran is blasphemy and those who adhere to such beliefs can never be called "submitters to Allah aka muslims"....


also ,any human who forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, can never be "submitter to Allah aka muslim "

Unitarians don't believe in Allah and the day of judgment "as the Quran says it has to be", neither they forbid which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger ...


Unitarians believe in many blasphemuous concept regarding God and the day of judgment ...
they for example believe that at the day of judgment:

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth.


They belief that All things created by/through Jesus (Colossians 1:16-17)--"For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created by Him and for Him. 17And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."

that is just a sample of the blasphemeous concepts they held....

I can collect a huge list of the beliefs they held that is against Islam ,and exclude them wholly from being "submitters to God aka Muslims"....


[/size]
Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: mclinkin94 on July 09, 2014, 12:55:16 AM
Quote
You wish them to be so , but the fact "submission to God will" is nothing but being fully Muslim , even those who believe in Jesus as God claim themselves to be sub,itters to God's will...  but just saying so doesn't necessarily means so....  nothing cheaper than words....

You don't just claim submission, you must actually submit. The Quran explicitly states those who say Jesus is God are not Muslim and are rather disbelievers. The jews and Christians who have been introduced to Islam and rejected it are no longer Muslim, they became disbelievers. Likewise, the Muslims who identify as such who put another source of law besides the Quran are disbelieving in Allah's direct words and are no longer Muslims.

Quote
Unitarians are NOT Muslims ,and destined to hell if not believing in Mohamed peace be upon him as the last messeneger of God , accepting the Quranic laws ,and put an end to their false belief of the nature and rule of Jesus and their concept of the day of judgment.....

That would contradict Quran 2:62...

Christians who have not heard of Islam are Muslims, likewise the ignorant Christians who have not heard of Islam are also Muslim (submitters), once they read the Quran and disbelieve, they become non-Muslims.

Quran 45:7-8 Woe to every sinful liar who hears the verses of Allah recited to him, then persists arrogantly as if he had not heard them. So give him tidings of a painful punishment.

^Anyone who hears the Quranic verses and rejects them become non-muslims.

This applies to EVERYONE. Muslims, Christians, Jews and sabians. IT also agrees with Quran 2:62--That those who do righteous deeds will be saved. Disbelieving in Allah's verses after hearing them is not a righteous deed.


Quote
Yes again Unitarians are NOT muslims (submitters to God) ,why?

1- Claiming that Unitarians or any others who don't believe in Mohamed as the last prophet of God, makes the act of Allah when he sent Mohamed peace be upon him with Islam to be without meaning....   If it is fine with Unitarians and what they do is Islam ,why would Allah send Mohamed with new message ,new laws, attacking their concept of Jesus ,their concept of the day of judgment?!!!   

How about the Christians before Muhammad? you saying they are destined to hell? If so, that too would contradict Quran 2:62.

The best meaning is to say that Unitarians who have not heard Allah's verses in the Quran are Muslims. This reconciles Quran 2:62 with Quran 45:7-8. Your interpretation does not at all reconcile these verses, rather it raises more questions than it solves. Why would Allah speak Quran 2:62 if Christians are destined to hell? According to your interpretation, this has no answer. According to the best interpretation that Christians and Jews who believe in God, the last day and do good will not grieve in the after. Exceptions are made throughout the Quran such as belief in the trinity, disbelieving in Allah's words etc.


Quote
2- As you are a Sunna denier, let's quote the Quranic clues ...

Who are those who are NOT Muslims "submitters to God" ...

Those who:

-Do not believe in only Allah
-Do not believe in the last day
-Do not do righteous deeds

are non-submitter/non-Muslims.

Jews and Christians who corrupt their scriptures do not do righteous deeds. Likewise Jews and Christians who denied the Quran after hearing it are not doing righteous deeds.


Quote
1- Jews ,Christians and Mushrek ..

Qur’an 3:67: Abraham in truth was not a Jew, neither a Christian; but he was a Muslim and one pure of faith; he was no associator of others with God.

This verse seems to agree with what I have been saying the whole time. Most Jews and Christians are not submitters, but some (like abraham) were submitters to Allah!

It is true, many Jews have corrupted their religion, many Christians made up things about Allah etc. Many did non righteous deeds.   


 
Quote
what is wrong with Jews and christians ,not being labled as Muslims ?

Well honestly, I have an issue labelling current Muslims as Muslims as they fail to uphold God's Quran and only God's Quran as we were instructed. I could label those who are ignorant or haven't given the Quran much thought and follow the Sunnah blindly as Muslims though--which I'm guessing is the Majority.

 I also have no problem labeling those who do not know anything about Islam (heard Allah's verses) but believe in God, the last day and live a righteous life as Muslims.



Indeed Allah predicted this:

Quran 25:30 And the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) will say: "O my Lord! Verily, my people deserted this Quran


Quote
Holy Quran  9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

Unitarians can never be excluded from the verse .... 

First: What does it mean when Allah says that Jews and christians don't believe in Allah and the last day?

surely it doesn't mean that Jews and christians are atheists who doesn't believe that this world was created by God, neither it means that they don't believe that there is a day of judgment and life after death.....

the prophet already knew that about them....  so the means has to be, that they don't believe in Allah and the day of judgment as truly depicted in the Quran ..... 

If this is the case (your last sentence), then I agree. The Jews and Christians who do are not righteous (believe in blasphemous ideologies AFTER knowing about Allah and the prophet and Allah's verses) are non-Muslims.

But again, I want to overstate this: The verse you posted seems to again agree with my thesis. That the Jews and Christians who have not been exposed to Islam will  be saved. This also agrees with Quran 45:7-8 as well.
---

I also wanted to state that, the interpretation of Quran 2:62 that I hold is not only limited to Quranist reasoning. Here is a sunni Scholar who seems to agree with me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiNTHms8pro

Abduraheem Green says that:

The Jews and Christians who follow their religion BEFORE the information game to them of Islam will be saved. That was my theisis and how I got he Quranic exegesis. I also add to Green's statement that those who believe int he trinity cannot be saved either.


Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: Black Muslim on July 10, 2014, 07:50:20 AM
The monotheists are still waiting .
Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: mclinkin94 on July 11, 2014, 03:52:03 AM
The monotheists are still waiting .

I will, as I promised.

let me deal with the shias first in their forums as I cannot believe how deviant they are when it comes to the Quranic understanding. 
Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: Egyptian on July 21, 2014, 10:47:05 AM
the Muslims who identify as such who put another source of law besides the Quran are disbelieving in Allah's direct words and are no longer Muslims.

Thats incredible indeed.... on one hand you wrongly turns the nonmuslims into muslims ,and the muslims into non muslims ...  what a twist !!!

plz remember don't get us into small cult Quranists vs Sunna discussion ... that is not our topic...



Christians who have not heard of Islam are Muslims, likewise the ignorant Christians who have not heard of Islam are also Muslim (submitters), once they read the Quran and disbelieve, they become non-Muslims.

I repaet again ,christians who never heard of Islam are NOT muslims ([read again my post of the qualifications to be a muslim), but whether destined to hell or not , God will judge them with his justice and mercy....



How about the Christians before Muhammad? you saying they are destined to hell?

 If they held the monotheism of the old testament ,kept the law.... then not only they can be called (muslims) but also saved.  if they took Jesus as God , then they no longer be called muslims and their destiney to hell.

If so, that too would contradict Quran 2:62.


Not at all ...they are not among those mentioned in the verse ...


The best meaning is to say that Unitarians who have not heard Allah's verses in the Quran are Muslims. 

Again unitarians are not muslims even if not heard the Quran.....why? because they don't believe in Allah and the day of judgment ,they don't held the law of lawful and unlawful.


I also have no problem labeling those who do not know anything about Islam (heard Allah's verses) but believe in God, the last day and live a righteous life as Muslims.   

those folk ,simply don't exist .



Abduraheem Green says that:
The Jews and Christians who follow their religion BEFORE the information game to them of Islam will be saved.

I have no problem with that only the christian who took Jesus as God in spite of their knowledge of the monotheism of the old testament shouldn't be saved...


Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: mclinkin94 on July 23, 2014, 05:37:31 PM
The monotheists are still waiting .

Hello brother Black Muslim, can you please give me the exact link to the english version of the website that I promised I would discuss Quran Islam in?

I can start discussing with them now. Unfortunately, on this forum, I will no longer discuss anything pertaining to Quran Only Islam.

Feel free to join in in that forum so long as you:

-Avoid rhetoric and insults
-Criticize constructively

I feel like brother Egyptian is a great example of how to discuss something :)
Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: mclinkin94 on July 23, 2014, 06:12:26 PM
[quote0 Thats incredible indeed.... on one hand you wrongly turns the nonmuslims into muslims ,and the muslims into non muslims ...  what a twist !!!

plz remember don't get us into small cult Quranists vs Sunna discussion ... that is not our topic...  [/quote]

Quranist vs. Sunnah is not our topic and it cannot be our topic on this forum :)

I don't think it is incredible to label those who reject one Quranic verse as disbelievers. Whether they identify as Muslim, Christian, etc, you become a disbeliever once you reject a Quranic verse.

Quran 3:4 Before, as guidance for the people. And He revealed the Qur'an. Indeed, those who disbelieve in the verses of Allah will have a severe punishment, and Allah is exalted in Might, the Owner of Retribution.


Quote
I repaet again ,christians who never heard of Islam are NOT muslims ([read again my post of the qualifications to be a muslim), but whether destined to hell or not , God will judge them with his justice and mercy....

You are equivocating on the word "muslim". That will serve as an issue.

Quote
  If they held the monotheism of the old testament ,kept the law.... then not only they can be called (muslims) but also saved.  if they took Jesus as God , then they no longer be called muslims and their destiney to hell.

Agreed.


Quote
Quote
The best meaning is to say that Unitarians who have not heard Allah's verses in the Quran are Muslims. 

Again unitarians are not muslims even if not heard the Quran.....why? because they don't believe in Allah and the day of judgment ,they don't held the law of lawful and unlawful.

Yes they do. And most do live righteous lives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses#Beliefs
 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses#Beliefs)

Quote

Quote
I also have no problem labeling those who do not know anything about Islam (heard Allah's verses) but believe in God, the last day and live a righteous life as Muslims.   

those folk ,simply don't exist .

You really think that? How about people who only hear bad things about Islam-->Evil, terrorism, murder etc. You think they heard Allah's actual verses and disbelieved?



Quote
I have no problem with that only the christian who took Jesus as God in spite of their knowledge of the monotheism of the old testament shouldn't be saved...

Nor does the Quran.

.
So my basic thesis is that Quran 2:62 states that ANYONE who believes in God, the last day and lives a righteous life will be saved.

Rejecting a Quranic verse is not living a righteous life.

Believing Jesus as God is not believing in Allah as God. 

Those who are ignorant of Islam but believe in God and the last day and live a life that is moral cannot grieve in the last day.
Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: Egyptian on July 26, 2014, 12:56:57 PM

the only new lines you provided in the last post is the article about Jehova witnesses, otherwise you reset your lines that I addressed and replyed to....

now regarding  the article you quoted ,let's see why Jehova witnesses ,can't be labled "muslims",in light of what the Quran defines muslims:

The article says:

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is God's only direct creation, that everything else was created by means of Christ, and that the initial unassisted act of creation uniquely identifies Jesus as God's "only-begotten Son".


why they say so?

because both Trinitarians and unitarians believe that JESUS is the creator of the universe !, why they say so? because the new testament clearly say so. eg;

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.For by him (Jesus) all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.


surely a muslim doesn't need to know Allah is the creator of the universe ,or may you need Quranic clue?

Holy Quran 40:62 Such is Allah, your Lord, the Creator of all things, there is no god but He: Then how ye are deluded away from the Truth!

7:191 Do they indeed ascribe to Him as partners things that can create nothing, but are themselves created?

So in terms of montheism ,Jehova witnesses, clearly,and according to the Quran,are  mushrik ascribing one of the the basic divine attributes to a human.

In terms of believing in the day of judgment :

Jehovah's Witnesses believe death is a state of non-existence with no consciousness. There is no Hell of fiery torment.

Watch Tower Society publications teach that humanity is in a sinful state, from which release is only possible by means of Jesus' shed blood as a ransom.

In terms of the lawful and unlawful ,they drink alcohol and eat pork ...

In other words the noble verse 9:29 fits perfectly on them :
believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth.


If after all such quranic input still you insist that they are muslims... then not only you could be labled as Sunna denier..but also not a true Quranist....


Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: mclinkin94 on July 27, 2014, 03:39:06 PM
It is important to note that I did not say that jehovah's witnesses beliefs are correct.

I said they:

Believe in God
Believe in the last day
Live righteous lives.

Those are the criteria given in Quran 2:62.

Having incorrect beliefs is not a sin. But having incorrect beliefs and hearing Allah's verses and rejecting them, that disqualifies you as being saved because you invalided one of the criteria to be saved ("Live righteous lives")


Now despite the unitarian belief that jesus had some part of creation (which is wrong), they believe the ultimate creator is Allah.

Now you mentioned Quran 9:29. In no place does that verse contradict or as some Quran deniers say "abrogate" Quran 2:62. Quran 9:29 makes it clear that you must fight those who (among others) "who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture". Quran 9:29 is simply commanding Muhammad that he is to inform to the people of the scripture the religion of the truth, and IF they deny and do not uphold the religion of Islam, you are to fight them. ONCE they deny Allah's verses, they no longer fit the criteria given in Quran 2:62 and they become disbelievers. So again, we see my case being proven and your case negated.

Quote
If after all such quranic input still you insist that they are muslims... then not only you could be labled as Sunna denier..but also not a true Quranist....

I have shown you that Quranists are not the only ones who take my position.

Abduraheem Greene stated that this verse does apply to everyone. It applies to people who have not heard of Allah and his verses but who believe in God the last day and live righteous lives. These people are the ones who existed before the Quran was sent down or the ignorant Christians and Jews today.

I don't like to quote authorities to prove my point, I don't need an authority to explain the Quran to me when I've been told to ponder it myself (not let others do it for me). The only reason I pointed you to Greene's statement is to show it is not limited to Quranist reasoning.


Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: Egyptian on July 28, 2014, 12:11:21 PM
Now despite the unitarian belief that jesus had some part of creation (which is wrong)


wrong ?!! no it is SHIRK and gets anyone who believes so anytime anywhere outside the folds of islam completely...

Do you think anyone who believes that a human being (jesus) created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

still be a muslim? !!    Just be factual mclinkin94....

and NO  neither unitarians nor Trinitarians believe that Allah aka (the father) is the one who created ....  just go study well the theology of both the trinitarians and the unitarian.


I said they:

Believe in God
Believe in the last day
Live righteous lives.


and I said they DON'T, supported that from both the Quran and the same article you quoted.



Quran 9:29 is simply commanding Muhammad that he is to inform to the people of the scripture the religion of the truth, and IF they deny and do not uphold the religion of Islam, you are to fight them. ONCE they deny Allah's verses, they no longer fit the criteria given in Quran 2:62 and they become disbelievers.



If the people of the scripture deny and do not uphold the religion of Islam they no longer fit the criteria given in Quran 2:62 and they become disbelievers. 


in other words anyone anywhere who won't uphold the religion of Islam (whether trinitarian,unitarian) as conveyed by the prophet Mohamed peace be upon him is automatically disbeliever  ... no sane person would understand the verse to be saying they were believers before the  warning of  the prophet and became disbelievers afterwards, they simple were desbelievers before the mission of Islam and continued  to be disbelievers ....
if they were believers there were no sense at all to be warned,fought etc....


I provided clear cut proofs (from both the quran and the bible) that all the people of the book  all included in the verse 9:29 as disbelievers... you provided nothing to sustain your position ..anyway let our readers judge...


one final word,  the words of Abduraheem Greene has nothing to do with the point, the destiney of those christians before or after Islam has nothing to do with whether their theologies can be labled as ISLAM.

Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: mclinkin94 on July 28, 2014, 01:27:23 PM
Quote
wrong ?!! no it is SHIRK and gets anyone who believes so anytime anywhere outside the folds of islam completely...

Do you think anyone who believes that a human being (jesus) created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Shirk is when you put partners with Allah. If unitarians do that, then they won't be saved.

Now what I know is that unitarians believe that Allah created everything. I don't see any shirk there.

The only thing that is wrong is when they said that Allah used Jesus to create the world. This is not shirk.

In the Quran, Allah used Gabriel to give the message to the prophet. We believe that Allah gave the message to the prophet, irrespective of who he used. Just as the case with Jesus. They believe Allah used Jesus to create the world. Who created the world? Allah. Same concept. Neither counts as shirk. Allah is the ultimate creator and ruler of the world in both cases.

Let's give an example: Let's say Allah created the universe by instructing an Angel to start off the big bang. Who created the universe? An Angel or Allah? Is it shirk to believe that an angel started the big bang by Allah's power? Who is the ultimate creator?

Allah delivered the message to Muhammad in Islam--> Even though he used Gabriel

In Christianity (unfortunately) Allah created the world-->Even though he used Jesus.

Quote

and I said they DON'T, supported that from both the Quran and the same article you quoted.

They do. The Quran makes it clear that some of them do (or did) in 2:62.  I hope you won't at least deny that. Otherwise if none of them believe in God, the last day and live righteous lives, THEN why would Allah say that the jews/Christians that believe in God, the last day and live righteous lives would be saved????

Quote
If the people of the scripture deny and do not uphold the religion of Islam they no longer fit the criteria given in Quran 2:62 and they become disbelievers. 


in other words anyone anywhere who won't uphold the religion of Islam (whether trinitarian,unitarian) as conveyed by the prophet Mohamed peace be upon him becomes automatically disbeliever  ...

Yes. IF they deny the Quran, they become disbelievers. That applies to everyone.

For your second statement, it is true. Anyone who won't uphold the religion of Islam once the Quran has been recited to them, become disbelievers based on the Quranic criteria--yes.

Quote
not because they were believers before the  warning of  the prophet , they simple were disbelievers and continued  to be disbelievers ....
if they were believers there were no sense at all to be warned,fought etc....

Not necessarily. Think of it like your boss at the company gave you a new law--a new rule...if you continue to obey the old law--you are going against your boss.

They were not disbelievers because they:

-Believed in God (not trinitarian either)
-The last day
-Lived righteous lives

Quote
I provided clear cut irrefutable proofs (from both the quran and the bible) that all the people of the book  all included in the verse 9:29 as disbelievers... you provided nothing to sustain your position ..anyway let our readers judge...


one final word,  the words of Abduraheem Greene has nothing to do with the point, the destiny of those christians before or after Islam has nothing to do with whether their theologies can be labled as ISLAM.

Quite the contrary, I have not seen any good arguments presented.


Islam means submission. To be labeled as islam is to submit. If muslims and Christians and jews correctly submit to Allah given by the criteria in the Quran (2:62) and elsewhere, they are Muslim.


Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: Black Muslim on July 28, 2014, 09:13:51 PM
Quote
Hello brother Black Muslim

After calling me and the majority of Muslims through history as disbelievers , I don't consider myself a brother of yours .

Quote
can you please give me the exact link to the english version of the website that I promised I would discuss Quran Islam in?

There isn't an English version of the site . I thought you were capable of reading Arabic and thus I suggested that you have your discussion in English after registering . If you really need an English site , you have a friend forum specialized in the topic :

http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/

Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: Egyptian on July 28, 2014, 11:09:09 PM

Shirk is when you put partners with Allah. If unitarians do that, then they won't be saved.

superficial definition ,shirk include ascribing any quality any divine work,power to a creature(even if it is known to be a creature)..
that include the catholic believe in Mary ,the unitarian believe in Jesus as the creator of everything and everything is created for him !.

don't tell me that their belief in Jesus as created by God would save them from blasphemy.....
Catholics know that Mary is mere human ,yet the Quran blasphemized them ...  the same way with unitarians ...

The only thing that is wrong is when they said that Allah used Jesus to create the world. 

how wrong? I say till blasphemy ...Allah didn't create everything seen and unseen by any agent ..
the catholics commit the same mistake while dealing with Mary ...
they think just cause they think she is human...no problem of the things they believe and do with her....


Let's give an example: Let's say Allah created the universe by instructing an Angel to start off the big bang.

we are not into the game of guessing , we are into the reality ...  no agent but Allah who created everything saying otherwise is blasphemy....

ascribing a power that is exclusive to Allah is shirk ... consult a basic tawheed book ,to find out the simplicity of your error.


Quote
They do. The Quran makes it clear that some of them do (or did) in 2:62.

If they Do ,then they necessarily converted to Islam, if they DID then they necessarily weren't christians "trinitarians or unitarians".... could be some Jews "who were strictly monotheists"....

Quote
why would Allah say that the jews/Christians that believe in God, the last day and live righteous lives would be saved????


the answer is simple ,either you render the verse as a present and future ,then the meaning any of them who would believe in God, the last day and live righteous lives (aka being a convert to Islam), or render it as a past then the meaning ,any of them who believed in God, the last day and lived  righteous lives (aka those who believed in Moses and the applied the true torah ,and those who applied the true injeel) .... they ofcourse are neither the trinitarians nor the unitarians ... as the Quran clearly blasphemized their theology whether before or after ISlam.

Quote
.Not necessarily. Think of it like your boss at the company gave you a new law--a new rule...if you continue to obey the old law--you are going against your boss. 

the old law was corrupted , that is why the boss sent the prophet..
Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: mclinkin94 on July 29, 2014, 01:14:13 PM
So you think that Allah doesn't use agents in doing his work? This is obviously false as I could point you to many cases in which Allah used agents to accomplish things. Even by using agents, Allah is the ultimate doer of these things. It is not shirk and it is not superficial shirk. Allah is still the ultimate creator irrespective of what agents he uses.

Again, this is not a guessing game. I gave an analogy and all responded with is that I was playing a game. An analogy is useful in explaining concepts. Here is one:

Let's say that I create a computer simulation (like a sim's game) and I use one of my sims to do something in that simulation. Who is the ultimate simulator in that case? Would it be putting partners with me? No, I'm simply using an agent to do the works. 

Quote
how wrong? I say till blasphemy ...Allah didn't create everything seen and unseen by any agent ..

How do you know that.?

If Allah created the world without an agent he could say in the Quran that he created the entire world.

If Allah created the world WITH an agent, he could still say in the Quran that he created the entire world.

How about this example: In the Quran, Allah sets laws for all of this creation and establishes himself on his throne. So here the agent is the laws set by Allah in the universe. The physical laws are the agents that keep the universe in order.

Note: I am not saying that I know whether Allah used an agent or not in creation, what I am saying is that if he did--he is still the maximally great being and the owner of the worlds.

What I am saying is that Allah is not limited to not using agents in doing his works. Allah can do as he chooses.

Quran 13:11 For each one are successive [angels] before and behind him who protect him by the decree of Allah .


So who is protecting you? Angels or Allah?

Quote
the answer is simple ,either you render the verse as a present and future ,then the meaning any of them who would believe in God, the last day and live righteous lives (aka being a convert to Islam), or render it as a past then the meaning ,any of them who believed in God, the last day and lived  righteous lives (aka those who believed in Moses and the applied the true torah ,and those who applied the true injeel) .... they ofcourse are neither the trinitarians nor the unitarians ... as the Quran clearly blasphemized their theology whether before or after ISlam.

Then we are in agreement except that there is more to it.

Those who:

-Live righteous lives
-Believe only in God
-Believe in the last day

Like i said, I don't see any problem with unitarians fitting that criteria.

Now even if you still maintain that jehovah's witnesses are blaphemining (which is wrong to say based on Allah using agents alone), there are other forms of unitarian Christianity that fit Quran 2:62

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism#Beliefs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarianism#Beliefs)

Title: Re: Quranist?
Post by: Egyptian on July 29, 2014, 05:07:53 PM
So you think that Allah doesn't use agents in doing his work?

I never said so ...   and I don't need  you to point to many cases in which Allah used agents to accomplish things , I just need you to show me the case   when ALLAH created a being and let this being create everything things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.He is before all things, and in him all things hold together....

mclinkin94 ,we are not discussing God Can or Can't , but Did or Didn't ....

quran 6:21 Who doth greater wrong than he who inventeth a lie against Allah or denieth His revelations? Lo! the wrongdoers will not be successful.


Quran 13:11 For each one are successive [angels] before and behind him who protect him by the decree of Allah .So who is protecting you? Angels or Allah?

Nice try mclinkin , but the agents of protection are mentioned here in the verse, unlike,who is the agent For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities ?

If you say there is ,then you invent a lie against Allah ... and got yourself directly into the high way of blasphemy (with your dear fellow muslims of jehovah's witnesses !).....


Like i said, I don't see any problem with unitarians fitting that criteria.

I said any human on earth (whether pagan,jew,christian,unitarian etc...) who won't adapt Islam as conveyed by the prophet peace be upon him , can't and won't be a muslim ....

the readers who would judge which position is solid ...