Author Topic: When the Quran says the 'heavens and the Earth' is it referring to the universe  (Read 23248 times)

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Offline mclinkin94

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And how can we know for sure, can you post some verses and analyze them?


Because some of the scientific miracles are derived from this, and if it is not talking about the whole universe, the scientific miracles with regards to this are invalid.

Like, the heavens and the Earth were once connected and then God stitched it etc.

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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ASSALAMUALYKUM.


    Brother please read the article given bellow:


    http://kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/astronomu-a-space/446-cosmic-parting-new-facts


Take Care.

Offline zulfiqarchucknorris

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Peace
I can vouch for the article, and the entire site, its really informative.
peace

Offline mclinkin94

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ASSALAMUALYKUM.


    Brother please read the article given bellow:


    http://kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/astronomu-a-space/446-cosmic-parting-new-facts


Take Care.

The link doesn't show how the 'heavens' mean 'universe' and not 'sky'

The verse they use is this: (Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, and thenWe parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?) [Suraat Al-Anbiya/21:30]


The verse says, "have not those who disbelieve known'', that means the verse is talking about something they already know...

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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ASSALAMUALYKUM.


            Brother, the meaning of sky is everything above. And what do you see above you? The atmosphere, the vast space, time, stars, planets, galaxies and everything. And our universe is composed of all these. So, through that verse Allah might be indicating, that once the earth and everything above(time,space,planets,stars etc) were together in a single mass, later Allah rent them a part. And Big Bang theory also says the same thing. I think heaven means the whole universe. ALLAH KNOWS THE BEST

 Well as our knowledge is limited, we can't say for sure what that Ayah is talking about. Only Allah knows the actual meaning of the verses of the Quran.



 (It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Qur’an). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkâm (commandments), Al-Farâ'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings exceptAllah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding) [Suraat Al-E-Imran/3:7]




Take Care.

« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 02:58:09 PM by FARHAN_UDDIN »

Offline mclinkin94

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ty, but if God wanted to say universe, why didn't he use the word for 'universe'-الكون?

and the verse i mentioned said "have the disbelievers not known"-this implies that they already knew this and not scientific miracle?


Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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ASSALAMUALYKUM.

     Brother, the synonym of Heavens is Universe. If you don't believe then you can search it in "OXFORD DICTIONARY OF SYNONYMS AND ANTONYMS."


 Well brother, we still don't know much about our vast universe. Scientists admit that they only know less than 5% of the total universal facts. Brother, the early Muslims believed in Quran by their heart. They didn't reject any of the verses. That's why still our Quran is uncorrupted. But due to lack of knowledge about the universal facts Christens, Jews corrupted their books by omitting the sayings of Allah and adding their own ideas. I think the early Muslims also got confused with the scientific verses but still they believed them by heart, they didn't reject them. On the other hand Kafirs rejected them terming them as errors. I think The early scriptures also had these facts but due to ignorance the followers of those scriptures omitted those. If we consider the matter from this perspective, the disbelievers knew or heard about these facts from their scriptures, but due to ignorance they rejected and omitted those scientific facts. Now almost no scientific fact is seen in Bible or Torah because of this. That's why Allah says, "Have not those who disbelieve known"


 ALLAH KNOWS THE BEST

Take Care.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 01:55:46 AM by FARHAN_UDDIN »

Offline mclinkin94

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ASSALAMUALYKUM.

     Brother, the synonym of Heavens is Universe. If you don't believe then you can search it in "OXFORD DICTIONARY OF SYNONYMS AND ANTONYMS."


 Well brother, we still don't know much about our vast universe. Scientists admit that they only know less than 5% of the total universal facts. Brother, the early Muslims believed in Quran by their heart. They didn't reject any of the verses. That's why still our Quran is uncorrupted. But due to lack of knowledge about the universal facts Christens, Jews corrupted their books by omitting the sayings of Allah and adding their own ideas. I think the early Muslims also got confused with the scientific verses but still they believed them by heart, they didn't reject them. On the other hand Kafirs rejected them terming them as errors. I think The early scriptures also had these facts but due to ignorance the followers of those scriptures omitted those. If we consider the matter from this perspective, the disbelievers knew or heard about these facts from their scriptures, but due to ignorance they rejected and omitted those scientific facts. Now almost no scientific fact is seen in Bible or Torah because of this. That's why Allah says, "Have not those who disbelieve known"


 ALLAH KNOWS THE BEST

Take Care.

Thanks, but how do you know 'the disbelievers' are referring to the Christians and Jews and not the Arab pagans?

If God wanted to say universe, why didn't he explicitly use the word for universe الكون and why did he use a synonym?

Offline ThatMuslimGuy

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AsalamuAlaikum,

This is my humble effort to in order to help you with your problem brother. Any good in this post is from Allah and any errors or badness is from myself and shaytan.


Allah says in Surah al-Anbiya verse 30:

 اولم ير الذين كفروا ان السماوات والارض كانتا رتقا ففتقناهما وجعلنا من الماء كل شئ حي افلايؤمنون

Transliteration:

Awa lam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waal-arda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afala yu/minoona

Interpretation and Meaning:

Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe? [Saheeh International]

 Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one united piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? [Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan]

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe? [Pickthall]

When the Quran says the 'heavens and the Earth' is it referring to the universe?

Allah in the Quran uses the Idiom Heaven and Earth to refer to the Universe as it refers to everything. Or he uses the term heaven to refer to the Universe.

How do we know Heaven and earth is an idiom for Universe. Well because all Allah ever talks about creating is the Heaven and the Earth.

And We did not create the heaven and earth and that between them in play. [Quran 21:16]

It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things. [Quran 2:29]

Consider this following verse. We know that Allah knows everything in the Universe but does Allah use the Term universe or 'Heaven and Earth' in his Quran when describing it?

The Prophet said, "My Lord knows whatever is said throughout the heaven and earth, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing." [Quran 21:4]

Our Lord, indeed You know what we conceal and what we declare, and nothing is hidden from Allah on the earth or in the heaven. [Quran 14:38]

Also consider this verse:

Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth is exalting Allah , the Sovereign, the Pure, the Exalted in Might, the Wise. [Quran 62:1]

Just by reading through the Quran it is obvious that the term 'heaven and Earth' in the Quran clearly refers to everything - The Universe.

Source: http://ia601200.us.archive.org/8/items/Linguisticmiracle.comTafsirNotes-Bayyinah.tvnoumanAliKhan/21-SurahAlAnbiyatheProphets-Linguisticmiracle.pdf -http://www.linguisticmiracle.com/

Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were fused together, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe? 'Rataka''s opposite is 'Fataka'.

This Ayah can be talking about the Big Bang theory.

Disbelievers couldn't have seen or thought about the Big Bang theory, or the fusion at that time; it was just an example. But today, these space explorations can brought to life. The origin of Universe can be watched and studied.One sad thing is that smart scientists who explore these are so fascinated by these explorations but their amazement is just with the universe. They can't seem to stretch their minds and think of the Creator who could have created these things.

So why did Allah not use the word Universe?

Firstly was the word Universe even known in the 7th century?

But more importantly who are we to choose what words Allah uses in the Qur'an? Look at this verse why did Allah describe it as an old date stalk. Why didn't he just say it goes in stages etc.

And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk. [Quran 38:39]

It is obvious it is for beauty. Allah uses a simile with nature. Similarly the constant repetition of the Heaven and Earth in the Qur'an also brings beauty to its verses.

But biggest point is Allah has used a idom for the 'Universe' he has split it into two sections. The Heaven (Stars, planets, galaxies etc) and the Earth.

"have the disbelievers not known"-this implies that they already knew this and not scientific miracle?


No not really. The Disbelievers could simply just reply no.

But more importantly this verse is here saying to the Disbelievers don't you know everything was one solid mass. They didn't. A verse showing that Allah knows more than them and is above them.

Also brother Farhan_UDDIN view may stand as if you just read the context of the verse it clearly is speaking to the Jews and Christians

And We sent not before you any messenger except that We revealed to him that, "There is no deity except Me, so worship Me."
And they say, "The Most Merciful has taken a son." Exalted is He! Rather, they are [but] honored servants.
They cannot precede Him in word, and they act by His command.
He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they cannot intercede except on behalf of one whom He approves. And they, from fear of Him, are apprehensive.
And whoever of them should say, "Indeed, I am a god besides Him"- that one We would recompense with Hell. Thus do We recompense the wrongdoers.
Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe? [Quran 21:26-30]

But i think the main reason why Allah uses 'have those who disbelieved not considered' is because the Quran wasn't meant only for the 7th century it was meant for all times.

So when someone in the 21st century- a disbeliever- reads "Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity". Allah is speaking to him and saying to him - you think your all scientific and know everything, look i'm telling you what you already know in a book from the 7th century.

I tell you when i give dawah and read this verse to people it is beautiful because it is speaking to disbelievers and Allah directly addresses them.

And Allah Knows Best.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 07:13:51 AM by ThatMuslimGuy »

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Brother.

 Using the word "heaven" is Allah's divine choice. May be there are much more secrets hidden in this very word and we may come to know those with the advancement of astrophysics. At many places of the Quran Allah used Synonyms and those synonyms contain many hidden meanings or secrets  which we are knowing day by day with the advancement of Science.


 I think Arab pagans were also warned by Ibrahim (AS) and Ismail(AS) or some other Prophets and they also received Allah's message because if they didn't then Allah wouldn't have branded them as disbelievers. Well I'm not sure about this one.


 Take Care.

Offline Egyptian

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ty, but if God wanted to say universe, why didn't he use the word for 'universe'-الكون?


Just an answer in ahurry ....


translating the word "al kawn" as "universe" is not proper .....  the word "kawn" is more general than "universe" .....  "kawn" would includes any other things, dimensions beyond the universe ....

the lower heaven with all its stars etc... and the other 6 heavens ,are just a part of the "kawn"...

« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 06:55:19 AM by Egyptian »

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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ASSALAMUALYKUM.


      Brother Egyptian excellent explanation. Brother Egyptian I think  السَّمَاوَاتِ         
 includes  other things, dimensions beyond the universe ....

the lower heaven with all its stars etc... and the other 6 heavens ,are just a part of the السَّمَاوَاتِ

Brother Egyptian am I right?




   
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 07:52:36 AM by FARHAN_UDDIN »

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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ASSALAMUALYKUM.

    Brothers please read the following article:


      http://www.speed-light.info/miracles_of_quran/seven_heavens.htm

Offline Egyptian

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ASSALAMUALYKUM.


      Brother Egyptian excellent explanation. Brother Egyptian I think  السَّمَاوَاتِ         
 includes  other things, dimensions beyond the universe ....

the lower heaven with all its stars etc... and the other 6 heavens ,are just a part of the السَّمَاوَاتِ

Brother Egyptian am I right?

 


the word "alkawn" means "the general absolute existence" , heavens or the universe are just included in that general term "alkawn" .

peace




Offline mclinkin94

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Thank you brother egyptian, thatmuslimguy and Farhan.

I'm very sorry but I don't know Arabic as well. If the word for universe "alkawn" exists, would that word be a better one for the universe? But there is a possibility this word didn't exist so Allah used the word heavens for that word. Also another possibility is that 'heavens' didn't mean universe and Allah wanted them to mean sky.

If the only word for universe that could be used in that time was 'samawat' and that was the closest word, that would make more sense. If the word "alkawn" did not mean universe at the time, that would mean 'heavens' is the closest word to it and 'heavens-='universe'.

Also, I wanna ask a question about this verse:

Quran 41:11) Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."

"Assuming Heaven means universe"^So this verse is saying that he directed himself to the heaven and he said to it AND THE EARTH, to come together. Some people say this is a scientific miracle because earth was smoke and then it collapsed on its mass and made the earth. Why did the verse say 'and the earth'--if the earth didn't exist? So it seems like this verse is talking about the sky (the smoke in the sky) forming on Earth (which was already there).

^please clarify brothers

Also:

[Quran 20.6] To Him belongs what is in the Heavens and what is on Earth and what is between them and what is under the soil.


^Doesn't this imply that the heavens and the Earth is the Earth and the sky? The verse says that is in between the heavens and the Earth and what is under the soil.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 02:54:36 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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ASSALAMUALYKUM.

 Brother heaven means the entire Universe. The word used for universe is السَّمَاوَاتِ  Brother this word is much appropriate than "alkawn." this is because heaven means the universe, the dimensions of the universe and  everything. And there might be other secrets which we still don't know. And as I have told you earlier it's Allah's divine choice. Just take for an example, Allah used "Kawkab" to refer to the planets and the word "Najm" to refer to the stars. But the early Muslims were unaware of this fact. They took "kawkab" and "najm" both as stars. I think they also came across this problem what you are facing now.

Just read the article given bellow to know how Allah differentiate between a planet and a star:

   http://www.islam-guide.com/bqs/17astronomy.htm



In the same way, Allah used    السَّمَاوَاتِ
 not  الكون  to refer to the universe. There has to be a reason behind this as this is Allah's divine choice. Inshallah with the advancement of Science we will come to know about the secret. And brother sky also means the universe. What do you mean by sky? Time, space, planets, stars etc. And our universe is composed of all these things.ALLAH KNOWS THE BEST


Now lets come to the next point.   


   Quran 41:11) Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."



 Brother first, Allah says He directed to the heaven while it had been a smoke . From this it's clear that earth and other components of the Universe were once together. And Allah knows, which portion of the smoke will be earth and which will be other planets and stars. That's why Allah addressed that portion of the smoke as earth, because He knew that portion of the smoke is earth.
"and said to it and to the earth" this proves that they were together and Allah is ordering them to get apart. ALLAH KNOWS THE BEST

The third and last point.



[Quran 20.6] To Him belongs what is in the Heavens and what is on Earth and what is between them and what is under the soil.


 Well brother I'm not sure of this verse but still I'll try my best to explain it to you. Brother as I have told you earlier that our universe might have some dimensions or layers as the scientists say. And our earth and all other planets and stars are in the first layer. So I think by this verse Allah wants to say that what ever is between the earth and the layers of the heavens belongs to Him. Brother I'm not sure about this explanation. Do one thing. Post a new thread on this topic, so that the topic is high lighted and brother Osama can help you with this.ALLAH KNOWS THE BEST

 May Allah forgive me if I have misinterpreted any of the facts above.

Take Care. 

Offline Egyptian

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ASSALAMUALYKUM.

 Brother heaven means the entire Universe. The word used for universe is السَّمَاوَاتِ  Brother this word is much appropriate than "alkawn." this is because heaven means the universe, the dimensions of the universe and  everything.


ASSALAMUALYKUM. Bro FARHAN_UDDIN ....

 السَّمَاوَاتِ (alsamawaat) means the entire universe, the dimensions of the universe and  everything. ?!
could you please support that from a dictionary or the Quran?

Bro mclinkin94 ,I will get back to your question after we settle the meaning of "samawat" inshallah....


peace

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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WALYKUMUSSALAM, brother Egyptian


 Brother, let me explain why I think السَّمَاوَاتِ (alsamawaat) means the entire universe, the dimensions of the universe and  everything.


 Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."


 Brother in the above ayah Allah is saying that everything was one single mass and this includes stars,planets,time,space,atoms and everything. Later they were separated, thus seven heavens came into being. Brother Allah says: "Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke" this means Allah turned to the heavens when it had been a smoke, and here heaven means everything(space,time,dimensions,stars,planets,atoms etc). And no where in the Quran as far as I know, Allah didn't use any other word except 'heaven' to refer to the entire universe. That's why I believe the word "Heaven" includes everything.Well ALLAH KNOWS THE BEST.

 Brother my explanation might not be proper. If I'm wrong please correct me.

May Allah The Most High shower His unending blessing upon you and the people of Egypt.

Take Care.

Offline Egyptian

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Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."
 Brother in the above ayah Allah is saying that everything was one single mass and this includes stars,planets,time,space,atoms and everything. Later they were separated, thus seven heavens came into being.

ASSALAMUALYKUM. Bro FARHAN_UDDIN ...

 I think you mean another verse in  Sura 21:30, which states: "Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?"




Brother Allah says: "Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke" this means Allah turned to the heavens when it had been a smoke, and here heaven means everything(space,time,dimensions,stars,planets,atoms etc). And no where in the Quran as far as I know, Allah didn't use any other word except 'heaven' to refer to the entire universe. That's why I believe the word "Heaven" includes everything.


The heavens(alsamawat) ,according to the quran are seven heaven ,it means they have a dimension ,a begnning and end ...that doesn't means there exist nothing beyond their dimension.

while (alkawn) is defind in the Arabic dictionary as, the absolute existence of everything ( الوجودُ المطلق العام).... not merely the observable universe.....

that means heaven"alsamawat" are specified part of the absolute existence "alkawn".



May Allah bless you.

Take Care.
[/quote]

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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ASSALAMUALYKUM.


 Brother Egyptian, you are right. But brother alkawn is a new word in Arabic isn't it? And the English word universe is also new. Allah is without space without time. That means Allah is outside the Heavens. And I think Humans will never know anything which is outside the Heavens.Because it's impossible. What ever they will do, whatever discoveries they will make, will be limited within the Heavens. And  I completely agree with your view. Thanks Brother.

 May Allah forgive me if I have misinterpreted any fact.


Brother Egyptian I think you have seen my new thread regarding Sana manuscripts. Please help me to solve my problems and confusions I'm facing. I know brother Osama will help me, and I also request you to help me. Please


 May Allah The Most High protect the people of Egypt from the ongoing crisis. Ameen

 

Offline mclinkin94

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Aslamu Alaikum!

Can anyone find out of Al-Kawn is a new word in Arabic and didn't exist in the time the Quran was revealed? 

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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ASSALAMUALYKUM.


 1580s, "the whole world, cosmos," from Old French univers (12c.), from Latin universum "the universe," noun use of neuter of adj. universus "all together," literally "turned into one," from unus "one" (see one) + versus, past participle of vertere "to turn" (see versus). Properly a loan-translation of Greek to holon "the universe," noun use of neuter of adj. holos "whole" (see safe (adj.)).

Source: http://www.etymonline.com/


Brother I think al-kawn is an old Arabic word but it's application is totally new.Now it's used to refer universe but the word universe emerged not more than 600 years ago.

Allah knows the best

Take Care

Offline mclinkin94

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ASSALAMUALYKUM.


 1580s, "the whole world, cosmos," from Old French univers (12c.), from Latin universum "the universe," noun use of neuter of adj. universus "all together," literally "turned into one," from unus "one" (see one) + versus, past participle of vertere "to turn" (see versus). Properly a loan-translation of Greek to holon "the universe," noun use of neuter of adj. holos "whole" (see safe (adj.)).

Source: http://www.etymonline.com/


Brother I think al-kawn is an old Arabic word but it's application is totally new.Now it's used to refer universe but the word universe emerged not more than 600 years ago.

Allah knows the best

Take Care

Hi, Thanks for your help so far: But I am still not entirely convinced :(

Do you think the word 'Al-Kawn' has the same origins as the English word 'Universe'?

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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ASSALAMUALYKUM.

      Brother, as I have explained before that the application of the word "Universe" to mean "Cosmos" is totally new. Before 1400s no one had any specific idea about the "Cosmos". By the word "Sky" they used to mean the "Cosmos". This is because the word sky means everything above or infinite vision into the deep space . Sky=Universe. Please read the below article to understand what is sky.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky

 Now I'm not 100% sure how old the word "Al-kawn" is. Even if it's old, it's application is totally new. Because the application of the word "Universe" to mean the "Cosmos" is new. And you won't find the word "Al-Kawn" anywhere in the Quran, Hadiths or any ancient Arabic manuscripts where it means or refers to "Cosmos". At that time people used to use "Sky" to refer to the "Cosmos". And it's true sky means the Universe as I have explained this earlier.

 Our Quran that's why for better understanding of the people of all times used the word "Heavens" to refer to the "Cosmos". And as you know the Muslims at that time failed to understand most of the Universal facts of the Quran due to their limited knowledge.

 Brother mclinkin I'm suggesting you to go through the article given below thoroughly. You'll find most of your answers regarding the Big Bang in the Quran there.

 http://kaheel7.com/eng/index.php/astronomu-a-space/277-miracles-of-allah-in-the-heaven-


Brother, I think I made a mistake by not posting the link of the above article before. I'm sorry. It would have removed most of the confusions.


 Whatever, Allah knows the best. And again I want to say, using the word "Heavens" is Allah's divine choice. There might be more secrets hidden in this very word, which we can't understand due to our limited knowledge.


 Brother one last thing, Quran is not a book of Science it's a book of Signs. So it's obvious that Quran won't use Scientific words to refer to the Scientific facts. Neither it will prove them. It will just indicate to Scientific facts and it will be our responsibility to prove them.

MAY ALLAH SHOWER HIS UNENDING BLESSINGS UPON YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.AMEEN


Take Care.

« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 02:11:14 PM by FARHAN_UDDIN »

Offline mclinkin94

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Thank you brother Farhan and Egyptian for that clarification.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 06:06:49 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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