Answering Christianity Research Center
MAIN BOARD (You must register to post) => GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS => Topic started by: mclinkin94 on December 13, 2013, 12:05:18 AM
-
wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Ramadan_Pole_Paradox
This claims that in some places on the globe there is no sunset except after many months. If you are to fast sunrise to sunset, this one would take 24 months and you would die.
They say this mistake was made because 7th century desert dwellers didn't know about the poles or Earth's roundness.
Also, what if you don't live on Earth, how do you fast?
-
Bump!
"Sunrise at the South Pole is on about the 21st of September every year. Sunset is on about the 22nd of March the following year"
You cannot fast sunrise to sunset or you'd die. Perhaps this means that you are supposed to refer to Sunrise and Sunsett IN Mecca and Madina WORLDWIDE?
That means in the United States we should be following the Mecca-Madina sunrise and sunsetts. That means if you are outside of the Solar system to fast to meccan and Madina time? Is that right?
-
Also another verse:
Quran 2:184 " And upon those who are able [to fast, but with hardship] - a ransom [as substitute] of feeding a poor person [each day]. And whoever volunteers excess - it is better for him. But to fast is best for you, if you only knew."
This is saying that if you cannot fast, you should feed the poor, but fasting is better. This still doesn't answer the initial question as to why the Quran said fasting in Sunrise to Sun sett, if the in the poles sunrise to sunset could be many months.
-
Also how do you pray if there is a sunrise and sunset that takes 6 months? Do you just not pray until sunset and wait the 6 months??
-
Bump.
If you know how to answer this, please do. We may have been praying wrong the whole time.
-
...
-
http://islamicresponse.blogspot.com/2008/07/allegation-that-islam-is-not-practical.html
Thanks for that link brother.
But it still doesn't answer the argument put forth that the Quran did not know that sunrise to sunsett is 6 months in some places in the Earth.
This link that you posted said that it is not suitable for life to live in the poles. That is an error, humans can easily live there and people do live there.
Next, the link implied that because there was no sunrise to sunset in the north/south pole you DON'T have to pray. This doesn't seem very practical.
Quote" "Salaat is a time related obligation, so, when these hours are not found in South or North Poles, no prayer is prescribed.". That wouldn't make sense to not pray for 6 months...."
-
AsalamuAlaikum,
sorry brother busy in sha Allah will reply.
-
Assalamualykum.
Please visit the following sites:
http://islamicvoice.com/2001-06/dialogue.htm
http://www.moonsighting.com/faq_pt.html
Brother, there might be no direct indication to such circumstances in the Quran because it would have confused the people back then. But obviously there might be indirect indication of such circumstances and also its solution. Listen Quran is the only Divine book. It contains everything. It is we who fail to comprehend the Quran properly due to our lack of knowledge.
-
http://fatwa.islamweb.net/fatwa/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=126398
I know you hate Hadith and despise it and all , but no one asked you . This is for anyone asking the same question .
-
wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Ramadan_Pole_Paradox
This claims that in some places on the globe there is no sunset except after many months. If you are to fast sunrise to sunset, this one would take 24 months and you would die.
They say this mistake was made because 7th century desert dwellers didn't know about the poles or Earth's roundness.
Also, what if you don't live on Earth, how do you fast?
As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,
Here is my response to the points on Praying and Fasting if you live near the North or South Poles. Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, commanded the Muslims to make an estimate about the time of Prayer if they're not sure:
"...Thereupon he said, "No, but you must make an estimate of time and then offer Salat (Prayer).''..." (Source 1 (http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=123507),2 (https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/19/1))
This Hadith was given to me by brother Submit on this website's blog (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog), may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.
Also, here are some Quran Facts about this topic:
1- Allah Almighty Said that He is the GOD of the sunrises and sunsets (plural for both). This means there isn't just one fixed sunrise and sunset point on earth or for earth. No, there are Mashaariq (sunrises) and Maghaarib (sunsets):
[070:040] Now I do call to witness the Lord of all points in the East المشارق and the West المغارب that We can certainly-
70:40 فلا اقسم برب المشارق والمغارب انا لقادرون
[037:005] Lord of the heavens and of the earth and all between them, and Lord of every point at the rising of the sun! المشارق
37:5 رب السماوات والارض ومابينهما ورب المشارق
Please visit:
www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_27.html
www.answering-christianity.com/north_and_south_poles_and_praying_and_fasting.htm
There are multiple Miracles in this Noble Verse 37:5:
(a)- Allah Almighty is the LORD of every sunrise point in the entire Universe.
(b)- This means that every plant has sunrises points.
(c)- All plants to humans are spherical. Our moon is spherical. Our planets that our ancient world knew such as Venus and others were known to be spherical.
(d)- The sunrise points on those spherical planets clearly indicate that Allah Almighty knew about SUNRISES AND SUNSETS on spherical planets in the Universe.
(e)- Earth was mentioned in this Noble Verse. This means that the SUNRISE POINTS also include the ones on earth, like all of those on all of the SPHERICAL PLANETS.
(f)- Allah Almighty clearly mentioned in other Noble Verses that the earth is:
1- Spherical
2- Is traveling in space.
3- Is rotating around itself.
4- Is speeding in space.
Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm.
(g)- Furthermore, Allah Almighty also said in the Holy Quran that all celestial bodies are يعرجون Yaa'rujoon (traveling in orbits (http://www.answering-christianity.com/day_layer_reveals_the_sun_brightness.wmv)) in space. This video (http://www.answering-christianity.com/day_layer_reveals_the_sun_brightness.wmv) is about Noble Verses 32:5, 34:2, 57:4, 70:3-4 and others, and the Arabic words عرج , عروج , معارج and معراج that all refer to "going in an orbital and curvy path" in the Glorious Quran and our Islamic Texts.
2- Allah Almighty Said that whoever WITNESSES the Month of Ramadan, then let him fast It:
[002:185] Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book. Those of you who witness this month shall fast therein. Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number of other days. GOD wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify GOD for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.
So if the Holy Month is Witnessed by a Muslim Community, then all of the Muslims should Fast.
3- Allah Almighty Said that when we're in doubt about the right direction, wherever we set our faces for Prayer, we'll find Allah Almighty.
[002:115] To God belongeth the east المشرق and the west المغرب; therefore whithersoever ye turn your selves to pray, there is the face of God; for God is omnipresent and omniscient.
2:115 ولله المشرق والمغرب فاينما تولوا فثم وجه الله ان الله واسع عليم
Even in the singular East and West, the Noble Verse is clearly speaking about the EASTS AND WESTS in Its Context, since it's talking about a random EAST AND WEST. The proof for this is the "al" (the) definite article, which in this context clearly means that whichever EAST and WEST the Muslim may be in, in that EAST and that WEST he will still find the Face of Allah Almighty. The "al" (the) definite article here in this context is referring to that particular point that the Muslim may be in. It's like saying:
"There are stores. Mclinkin94 is in a store. The store that Mclinkin94 may be in (no one knows where Mclinkin94 is) is still acceptable." Here "the store" could be any of the stores, indicating that all of the stores are equally the same; that regardless of which store brother Mclinkin94 may be in, that store would still be ok.
Given all of this, it clearly appears to me that the Muslim Community in such places where sunrise and sunset take months can and should do one of the following:
1- Set their time on the time of the nearest land that gets proper sunrise and sunset.
2- Set their own time and follow the best estimation for both Prayer and Fasting times.
3- Follow Mecca's time, since it's the Original Source.
4- And in any case, they should pray toward Mecca.
And Allah Almighty Knows best. But one fact should be known is that the Holy Quran did mention the sunrises and sunsets on earth. And Allah Almighty did speak about visually witnessing the Month of Ramadan for fasting. So while Allah Almighty may not have directly spoken about the North and South Poles on earth, but the Glorious Quran didn't negate their existence either. After Allah Almighty did clearly and indisputably say about earth that it is:
1- Spherical
2- Is traveling in space.
3- Is rotating around itself.
4- Is speeding in space.
Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm.
Also the moon's orbit around earth is S-Shaped: http://www.answering-christianity.com/moon_orbit_miracle.htm.
Advise to all Muslims:
Please do not expect the Glorious Quran to mention everything about geology or astronomy. The Holy Quran isn't a science book. However, what you can and should and must expect from the Holy Book is for It to not negate or clash with or contradict an established Scientific fact. That you would be correct on pursuing. But to expect the Holy Quran to mention the North and South poles just wouldn't be fair nor right. The points that I mentioned above clearly demonstrate that Allah Almighty's claims about earth never negated nor are they in any contradiction with the fact that earth has North and South Poles, and that the days and nights do take much longer in those places.
The Holy Quran is crystal clear about the earth having SUNRISES and SUNSETS (plural for both). To those who believed that earth was flat, and had one fixed point for sunrise and one fixed point for sunset, this statement from Allah Almighty is a contradiction to their false beliefs.
The doomed-to-Hell Islam-hating infidels have nothing on Islam. All Praise and Thanks and Glory are due to Allah Almighty Alone.
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
-
Thank you brother Osama :) But there still is an issue:
You could also raise the issue that perhaps the author of the Quran did not know that on the poles sunrise to sunset could last 6+ months and therefore didn't mention it. Although it is true that you could sync the times in the North pole and South pole to match prayer times of a close city, the Quran did not say what we are supposed to do if sunrise to sunset lasts entire months. This makes it seem like the author of the Quran was unaware of such a phenomena of sunrise to sunset taking entire months.
That means if we are to observe Ramadan in the poles, we would die. That means we don't have to pray 5 times a day in the poles?
-
Thank you brother Osama :) But there still is an issue:
You could also raise the issue that perhaps the author of the Quran did not know that on the poles sunrise to sunset could last 6+ months and therefore didn't mention it. Although it is true that you could sync the times in the North pole and South pole to match prayer times of a close city, the Quran did not say what we are supposed to do if sunrise to sunset lasts entire months. This makes it seem like the author of the Quran was unaware of such a phenomena of sunrise to sunset taking entire months.
That means if we are to observe Ramadan in the poles, we would die. That means we don't have to pray 5 times a day in the poles?
As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,
Yes, the Holy Quran does say that we can sync up with the nearest location that has the proper day and night cycles for Prayer and Fasting Timings. Here is what the Holy Quran Says:
1- Muslims are one Ummah (امة nation):
[003:110] Ye are the best of peoples امة, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in God. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.
[002:143] Thus, have We made of you an Ummat امة justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Apostle a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Apostle from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by God. And never would God Make your faith of no effect. For God is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.
[021:092] Verily, this brotherhood امتكم of yours is a single brotherhood امة, and I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore serve Me (and no other).
2- All land belongs to Allah Almighty. And if a Muslim is living in a land that is causing him much fitnah (trials, unstable situations), then the Muslim is required to seek better solutions when he could:
[004:097] There are those who have wrought a wrong upon themselves. The angels (of death), would take possession of their souls and ask, "What was wrong with you?" They would answer, "We were too weak and oppressed in the land!" The angels will say, "Wasn't the land of Allah vast and spacious enough, so you could emigrate (and seek refuge) elsewhere?" Such ones would have an abode in hell. What a despicable destination!
[004:098] Except for the men, women and children who are weak and oppressed! They are unable to muster the means (to migrate), and (therefore) find no way out.
Now, while this Noble Verse is speaking about the Muslims who were suffering oppression from the disbelievers, but it would certainly apply today as follows:
1- Either physically migrate from the land that doesn't have proper cycles of days and nights.
2- Or set your time (migrate your time) to match a Muslim city or country that has the proper timing. I personally vote for going with the nearest geographical city or country that has the normal day and night cycles, preferably directly south or north of you, which is on the same vertical time zone and line as you (see image below for why). But other Muslims also say go with Mecca's timing. Either way is perfectly fine.
3- Noble Verse 4:98 clearly gives you the permission to stay in the land that doesn't have proper day and night cycles, especially when our Muslim countries are mostly corrupt today (this is also an Islamic End of Time Prophecy (http://www.answering-christianity.com/convert_christians.htm)). So the person would need to set their Prayer and Fasting times to a Muslim city that does have the proper times, and insha'Allah everything will be fine.
And to the reader, please visit my previous post (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282), above, to see the Glorious Quran's Scientific Miracles that are directly related to this topic:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282
And last and not least, I invite the reader to visit the following link (http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links) to see the Overwhelming Scientific Miracles in the Glorious Quran in:
1- STUNNING Numerical Miracles.
2- Embryology.
3- Biology.
4- Astronomy.
5- Geology.
6- Mathematics
7- Archeology.
8- Prophecies.
Please visit: www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
And again, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, commanded the Muslims to make an estimate about the time of Prayer if they're not sure:
"...Thereupon he said, "No, but you must make an estimate of time and then offer Salat (Prayer).''..." (Source 1 (http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=123507),2 (https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/19/1))
Time on Earth is determined vertically:
Another point worth mentioning is that the time on earth, as we know it, is determined vertically. This means that whether you're all the way north or all the way south, if you're on the same vertical time line, then time will be the same for you. This is why I said above that it's best then to set your Prayer and Fasting Times on the time of the city that is directly south or north of you, and is on the same vertical time zone and line as you:
(http://www.answering-christianity.com/world_map.png)
Advise to all Muslims:
Like I said in my previous post (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282), please do not expect the Glorious Quran to mention everything about geology or astronomy. The Holy Quran isn't a science book. However, what you can and should and must expect from the Holy Book is for It to not negate or clash with or contradict an established Scientific fact. That you would be correct on pursuing. But to expect the Holy Quran to mention the North and South poles just wouldn't be fair nor right. The points that I mentioned above, in this post and in the previous one, clearly demonstrate that Allah Almighty's claims about earth never negated nor are they in any contradiction with the fact that earth has North and South Poles, and that the days and nights do take much longer in those places.
The Holy Quran is crystal clear about the earth being Spherical, and having SUNRISES and SUNSETS (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282) (plural for both). Allah Almighty Said about the earth that is:
1- Spherical
2- Is traveling in space.
3- Is rotating around itself.
4- Is speeding in space.
Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm.
Also the moon's orbit around earth is S-Shaped: http://www.answering-christianity.com/moon_orbit_miracle.htm.
To those who believed that earth was flat, and had one fixed point for sunrise and one fixed point for sunset, this statement from Allah Almighty is a contradiction to their false beliefs.
The doomed-to-Hell Islam-hating infidels have nothing on Islam. All Praise and Thanks and Glory are due to Allah Almighty Alone.
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
-
2- Or set your time (migrate your time) to match a Muslim city or country that has the proper timing. I personally vote for going with the nearest geographical city or country that has the normal day and night cycles, preferably directly south or north of you, which is on the same vertical time zone and line as you (see image below for why). But other Muslims also say go with Mecca's timing. Either way is perfectly fine.
Thank you brother Osama!
I'm having an issue with this point. It appears as if the verses you posted were talking about physically migrating rather than migrating your time. Is there any indication that it refers to migrating the time? I don't see it yet, maybe it is the Arabic.
This would be a convincing point if it refers to migrating the time
-
2- Or set your time (migrate your time) to match a Muslim city or country that has the proper timing. I personally vote for going with the nearest geographical city or country that has the normal day and night cycles, preferably directly south or north of you, which is on the same vertical time zone and line as you (see image below for why). But other Muslims also say go with Mecca's timing. Either way is perfectly fine.
Thank you brother Osama!
I'm having an issue with this point. It appears as if the verses you posted were talking about physically migrating rather than migrating your time. Is there any indication that it refers to migrating the time? I don't see it yet, maybe it is the Arabic.
This would be a convincing point if it refers to migrating the time
As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Mclinkin94,
"Migrating your time" was probably a bad choice of words from me, because you'd be on the same vertical time line as any city that has normal day and night cycles, as I already explained. So apologies for this confusing term. What I meant by it was to adjust yourself to the time of the nearest city that is on your same vertical timeline and has normal day and night cycles. You wouldn't need to migrate. You'll just have to adjust yourself to the nearest city to you, either north or south of you, and set your "days" and "nights" according to them, and work with their timings.
And by the way, in those countries, they do exactly that. When they have six months of night or day, for example, they wouldn't have to worry about a thing, since they have already adjusted themselves to the normal cycles' hours, and work with the rest of the country's times. So if your job is 8:00 am to 5:00 pm Monday thru Friday, then you would adjust yourself to work during those hours regardless whether it is night or day at where you live. So for Prayer and Fasting, you should do the same.
And I repeat my advise to you and to all Muslims:
Advise to all Muslims:
Like I said in my previous post (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282), please do not expect the Glorious Quran to mention everything about geology or astronomy. The Holy Quran isn't a science book. However, what you can and should and must expect from the Holy Book is for It to not negate or clash with or contradict an established Scientific fact. That you would be correct on pursuing. But to expect the Holy Quran to mention the North and South poles just wouldn't be fair nor right. The points that I mentioned above, in this post and in the previous one, clearly demonstrate that Allah Almighty's claims about earth never negated nor are they in any contradiction with the fact that earth has North and South Poles, and that the days and nights do take much longer in those places.
The Holy Quran is crystal clear about the earth being Spherical, and having SUNRISES and SUNSETS (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282) (plural for both). Allah Almighty Said about the earth that is:
1- Spherical
2- Is traveling in space.
3- Is rotating around itself.
4- Is speeding in space.
Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm.
Also the moon's orbit around earth is S-Shaped: http://www.answering-christianity.com/moon_orbit_miracle.htm.
To those who believed that earth was flat, and had one fixed point for sunrise and one fixed point for sunset, this statement from Allah Almighty is a contradiction to their false beliefs.
The doomed-to-Hell Islam-hating infidels have nothing on Islam. All Praise and Thanks and Glory are due to Allah Almighty Alone.
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
-
As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Mclinkin94,
"Migrating your time" was probably a bad choice of words from me, because you'd be on the same vertical time line as any city that has normal day and night cycles, as I already explained. So apologies for this confusing term. What I meant by it was to adjust yourself to the time of the nearest city that is on your same vertical timeline and has normal day and night cycles. You wouldn't need to migrate. You'll just have to adjust yourself to the nearest city to you, either north or south of you, and set your "days" and "nights" according to them, and work with their timings.
And by the way, in those countries, they do exactly that. When they have six months of night or day, for example, they wouldn't have to worry about a thing, since they have already adjusted themselves to the normal cycles' hours, and work with the rest of the country's times. So if your job is 8:00 am to 5:00 pm Monday thru Friday, then you would adjust yourself to work during those hours regardless whether it is night or day at where you live. So for Prayer and Fasting, you should do the same.
But, this then leads to the initial problem that the Quran did not state what to do when sunrise/sunset lasts 6 months. In a sense, the skeptic could rightfully argue that this implies that the author was unaware of such an event.
My personal counter-argument is that the Quran says that you are supposed to wash your hands. But, what if you don't have hands? Does it mean that the Author of the Quran didn't think you can live without your hands. Its obvious what you are supposed to do. :)
But, it would be more beneficial to deal with the skeptics if we have a clear Quranic verse that describes what to do in an event of prolonged sunrise/sunsett.
Perhaps the Quran does refer to it. Do you know of any verses?
Sorry for this trouble.
-
But, this then leads to the initial problem that the Quran did not state what to do when sunrise/sunset lasts 6 months. In a sense, the skeptic could rightfully argue that this implies that the author was unaware of such an event.
My personal counter-argument is that the Quran says that you are supposed to wash your hands. But, what if you don't have hands? Does it mean that the Author of the Quran didn't think you can live without your hands. Its obvious what you are supposed to do. :)
But, it would be more beneficial to deal with the skeptics if we have a clear Quranic verse that describes what to do in an event of prolonged sunrise/sunsett.
Perhaps the Quran does refer to it. Do you know of any verses?
Sorry for this trouble.
As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,
In Islam, we have the Witness Law for both Prayers and Fasting. This is where we follow the determined time even if we ourselves can't spot it in the sky due to cloudy days or different weathers. We'd still follow the exact times if other Muslims witnessed. Here are two main points that you raise and my responses to them, akhi:
Your first main point: You are forcing the rule that the Holy Quran should've mentioned the North and South Poles.
My response: I have already thoroughly demonstrated above how Allah Almighty Said that the earth is Spherical, is traveling in space, is rotating around its own axle, and does have many Sunrise and Sunset points. So the North and South Poles are indirectly mentioned.
Furthermore, Allah Almighty did Say that He has created us a Muslim nation in the MIDDLE to be Winesses over all of mankind (http://www.answering-christianity.com/cgi-bin/quran/quran_search1.cgi?search_text=2%3A143&pickthall=1&arabic=1&B1=Search):
2:143 وكذلك جعلناكم امة وسطا لتكونوا شهداء على الناس ويكون الرسول عليكم شهيدا وماجعلنا القبلة التي كنت عليهاالا لنعلم من يتبع الرسول ممن ينقلب على عقبيه وان كانت لكبيرة الا على الذين هدى الله وماكان الله ليضيع ايمانكم ان الله بالناس لرؤوف رحيم
Pickthall:
[002:143] Thus We have appointed you a middle وسطا nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard (test) save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah's purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind.
Muslims Geographically today are in the Middle:
Muslims today are indeed geographically in the Middle of the Earth! We are neither concentrated North nor South. We are concentrated in the Middle. Could this Noble Verse be also referring to the North and South Poles issues that you brought up? Only Allah Almighty Knows. But the Holy Quran is crystal clear about us being a NATION IN THE MIDDLE to be Witnesses on mankind. So could we apply this Noble Verse to the exceptional situations in the North and South Poles?
I say yes. After all, the Holy Quran is a Scientific Miracle (http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links), and is Divine from Allah Almighty. So this shouldn't be something odd or off.
Think this is just too Ridiculous and Impossible?
1- Did not Allah Almighty also Say that the Dead Sea area is the lowest land on earth (http://www.answering-christianity.com/lowest_land_miracle.htm)? And this had been scientifically proven to be STUNNINGLY TRUE!
Visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/lowest_land_miracle.htm
2- Did not Allah Almighty make ample Geographically and other Scientifically Miraculous Statements in the Holy Quran that were confirmed to be true today? Please visit:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
So why can't it be a fulfilled Divine Prophecy then?
So why can't Noble Verse 2:143 be another fulfilled Divine Prophecy and Miracle then? It is:
1- A Prophecy because we Muslims are indeed today concentrated in the Middle of the Earth.
2- A Miracle, because it is another True Statement from the Divine Book, the Holy Quran.
Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac3.htm#prophecies
I am telling you brother, the doomed-to-Hell infidels have nothing on Islam.
Your second main point: You are forcing the rule that if one doesn't for example have daylight then he/she shouldn't pray and fast according to the Holy Quran then, since they can't determine the times through the day and night cycles.
My response: Again, we have the Witness Rule in Islam. As I already demonstrated from the Holy Quran that all land belongs to Allah Almighty. So you're already part of the nearby land that already has the normal day and night cycles, and is on the same vertical timeline and zone as you are. So here, the Witness Rule would apply.
And I again repeat my advise to you and to all Muslims:
Advise to all Muslims:
Like I said in my previous post (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282), please do not expect the Glorious Quran to mention everything about geology or astronomy. The Holy Quran isn't a science book. However, what you can and should and must expect from the Holy Book is for It to not negate or clash with or contradict an established Scientific fact. That you would be correct on pursuing. But to expect the Holy Quran to mention the North and South poles just wouldn't be fair nor right. The points that I mentioned above, in this post and in the previous one, clearly demonstrate that Allah Almighty's claims about earth never negated nor are they in any contradiction with the fact that earth has North and South Poles, and that the days and nights do take much longer in those places.
The Holy Quran is crystal clear about the earth being Spherical, and having SUNRISES and SUNSETS (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282) (plural for both). Allah Almighty Said about the earth that is:
1- Spherical
2- Is traveling in space.
3- Is rotating around itself.
4- Is speeding in space.
Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm.
Also the moon's orbit around earth is S-Shaped: http://www.answering-christianity.com/moon_orbit_miracle.htm.
To those who believed that earth was flat, and had one fixed point for sunrise and one fixed point for sunset, this statement from Allah Almighty is a contradiction to their false beliefs.
I am telling you again brother, the doomed-to-Hell Islam-hating infidels have nothing on Islam. All Praise and Thanks and Glory are due to Allah Almighty Alone.
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
-
As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers and sisters,
To continue with my last reply, I would like to ask you to visit the following links and watch the videos of the sun rises and sets in both the North and South Pole areas:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Midnight+Sun+north&sm=12
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Midnight+Sun+south+pole&sm=3
The sun does rise and set in both the North and South Poles regularly and daily. It doesn't sit still in one fixed position in the sky for months. No, it regularly moves, and it regularly rises and sets. So Muslims living in such areas can easily adjust to the sunrise and sunset times and determine their Prayer and Fasting times, especially when they use the regular times of the nearest city that is on the same Vertical Timeline as them, and has our normal day and night cycles.
Please visit my reply above for ample more details. So there is no paradox here. It's only the anti-Islamics who are spiritually lost and are desperate to find anything on Islam. But as everyone sees, the Holy Quran is a Divine Miracle, and the Holy Quran contains ample and Overwhelming Scientific Miracles in It (http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links). Please visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
-
As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,
In Islam, we have the Witness Law for both Prayers and Fasting. This is where we follow the determined time even if we ourselves can't spot it in the sky due to cloudy days or different weathers. We'd still follow the exact times if other Muslims witnessed. Here are two main points that you raise and my responses to them, akhi:
Your first main point: You are forcing the rule that the Holy Quran should've mentioned the North and South Poles.
My response: I have already thoroughly demonstrated above how Allah Almighty Said that the earth is Spherical, is traveling in space, is rotating around its own axle, and does have many Sunrise and Sunset points. So the North and South Poles are indirectly mentioned.
Asalamu Alaikum brother Osama, Thank you very much for your efforts!
Can you please explain more about this witness law? The Quranic verse says in "Those of you who witness this month shall fast therein" so it is referring to those who witnessed it. This somewhat alludes to the point that if you witness the month you fast and that those who haven't witnessed wouldn't fast.
I do agree with your response that the Quran has alluded to those phenomenon, but the skeptic's argument was not that the Quran was unaware of the North/South pole, it was that the Quran was unaware of the different sunrise and sunset times in those poles taking an entire months and therefore did not mention what to do if you are living in such an location.
The sun does rise and set in both the North and South Poles regularly and daily. It doesn't sit still in one fixed position in the sky for months. No, it regularly moves, and it regularly rises and sets. So Muslims living in such areas can easily adjust to the sunrise and sunset times and determine their Prayer and Fasting times, especially when they use the regular times of the nearest city that is on the same Vertical Timeline as them, and has our normal day and night cycles.
True, but at times, especially at the 6 month night at the poles, there would be no sun at all to determine the rise and set. That isn't the issue, I believe that it is just common sense what to do therefore Allah does not need to mention it.
What do you do if you don't have hands to do wudu? What do you do if you don't have a mother, how can you respect her? What do you do if you if you cannot stand up to pray and cannot prostrate? It is all common sense, there is no need for that detail.
-
Can you please explain more about this witness law? The Quranic verse says in "Those of you who witness this month shall fast therein" so it is referring to those who witnessed it. This somewhat alludes to the point that if you witness the month you fast and that those who haven't witnessed wouldn't fast.
As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Mclinkin94,
The witness Rule or Law is very simple. If a Muslim community, or even a small group or even a single genuine Muslim, witnesses the start of Prayer or start of the Holy Month of Ramadan, then everyone must follow thru even if the weather is bad and time couldn't be easily determined. This also applies with best estimations by the religious leaders of the community, especially under bad weather conditions where the sun and daylight aren't clear at all. So once the time is determined, whether by actual Witness or an Estimation, then every Muslim must follow thru. So you can use that Rule if you're living in lands that don't have proper day and night cycles with other cities that have normal day and night cycles, and are directly north or south of you on the same vertical timeline.
And again, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, commanded the Muslims to make an estimate about the time of Prayer if they're not sure:
"...Thereupon he said, "No, but you must make an estimate of time and then offer Salat (Prayer).''..." (Source 1 (http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=123507),2 (https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/19/1))
I do agree with your response that the Quran has alluded to those phenomenon, but the skeptic's argument was not that the Quran was unaware of the North/South pole, it was that the Quran was unaware of the different sunrise and sunset times in those poles taking an entire months and therefore did not mention what to do if you are living in such an location.
Not true at all, akhi. The sun and the moon rise and set every single day on the North and South poles everyday in the year. The only difference is that the sky is either always bright or always dark for months long. But you do clearly see the sun and the moon (depending whether it is bright or dark) rise and set every single day as the Youtube links that I gave above clearly demonstrate. So the same 24 hours that you and I pass through during our days and nights, are the same 24 hours that they also pass through. They do have AM and PM times. They do have sun rises and sun sets, and moon rises and moon sets. They do have cycles. Why not use those? After all, Allah Almighty is the "LORD of all of the SUNRISES and SUNSETS" [1 (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282)] on earth, as He the Almighty Said in the Holy Quran, as I've shown in the posts above (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282). And if even if we didn't want to use the sun and moon rises and sets in our current lands, we could always revert back to using the nearest city's times, which would be the same times as you'd be using if you were in either the North or South Poles anyway.
If I were living in such lands, I would use the Prayer and Fasting Times of the nearest city that is on the same Vertical Timeline as my city is on. This way, I would true to the Holy Quran in every way. After all, all land is one, and it belongs to Allah Almighty as I also clearly demonstrated from the Holy Quran in the previous posts (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282). So my land would be nothing but an extension of the land and is part of the land. I would use the Witness Law and apply it. Islam did cover it.
And I again repeat my advise to you, dear brother, and to all Muslims:
Advise to all Muslims:
Like I said in my previous post (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282), please do not expect the Glorious Quran to mention everything about geology or astronomy. The Holy Quran isn't a science book. However, what you can and should and must expect from the Holy Book is for It to not negate or clash with or contradict an established Scientific fact. That you would be correct on pursuing. But to expect the Holy Quran to mention the North and South poles just wouldn't be fair nor right. The points that I mentioned above, in this post and in the previous one, clearly demonstrate that Allah Almighty's claims about earth never negated nor are they in any contradiction with the fact that earth has North and South Poles, and that the days and nights do take much longer in those places.
The Holy Quran is crystal clear about the earth being Spherical, and having SUNRISES and SUNSETS (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282) (plural for both). Allah Almighty Said about the earth that is:
1- Spherical
2- Is traveling in space.
3- Is rotating around itself.
4- Is speeding in space.
Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm.
Also the moon's orbit around earth is S-Shaped: http://www.answering-christianity.com/moon_orbit_miracle.htm.
To those who believed that earth was flat, and had one fixed point for sunrise and one fixed point for sunset, this statement from Allah Almighty is a contradiction to their false beliefs.
I am telling you again brother, the doomed-to-Hell Islam-hating infidels have nothing on Islam. All Praise and Thanks and Glory are due to Allah Almighty Alone.
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
-
As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers and sisters,
I have updated one of my earlier posts with more Miracles from the Glorious Quran regarding this topic that we're discussing here. The link of the post is as follows:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
-
As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Mclinkin94,
The witness Rule or Law is very simple. If a Muslim community, or even a small group or even a single genuine Muslim, witnesses the start of Prayer or start of the Holy Month of Ramadan, then everyone must follow thru even if the weather is bad and time couldn't be easily determined. This also applies with best estimations by the religious leaders of the community, especially under bad weather conditions where the sun and daylight aren't clear at all. So once the time is determined, whether by actual Witness or an Estimation, then every Muslim must follow thru. So you can use that Rule if you're living in lands that don't have proper day and night cycles with other cities that have normal day and night cycles, and are directly north or south of you on the same vertical timeline.
Asalumu Alaikum brother Osama. Thank you very much for your responses!
Is there any chance that you could explain the Quranic exegesis for this point? I don't see the Quran giving this witness rule, it appears that the Quran says if any of us witness it then we should fast it rather then the entirety of Muslims.
As far as the Muslims being witnesses for all nations, I think these verses are referring to muslims being witnesses on the day of resurrection rather than witnessing when Ramadan starts.
Not true at all, akhi. The sun and the moon rise and set every single day on the North and South poles everyday in the year. The only difference is that the sky is either always bright or always dark for months long. But you do clearly see the sun and the moon (depending whether it is bright or dark) rise and set every single day as the Youtube links that I gave above clearly demonstrate. So the same 24 hours that you and I pass through during our days and nights, are the same 24 hours that they also pass through. They do have AM and PM times. They do have sun rises and sun sets, and moon rises and moon sets. They do have cycles. Why not use those? After all, Allah Almighty is the "LORD of all of the SUNRISES and SUNSETS" [1 (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282)] on earth, as He the Almighty Said in the Holy Quran, as I've shown in the posts above (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282). And if even if we didn't want to use the sun and moon rises and sets in our current lands, we could always revert back to using the nearest city's times, which would be the same times as you'd be using if you were in either the North or South Poles anyway.
If I were living in such lands, I would use the Prayer and Fasting Times of the nearest city that is on the same Vertical Timeline as my city is on. This way, I would true to the Holy Quran in every way. After all, all land is one, and it belongs to Allah Almighty as I also clearly demonstrated from the Holy Quran in the previous posts (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282). So my land would be nothing but an extension of the land and is part of the land. I would use the Witness Law and apply it. Islam did cover it.
Moon rise and moon set wouldn't be considered a sunrise/sunset for 6 months as per Quran. It is not about whether you would be able to tell times at the poles :), we could already do that with our modern day time-keeping. Perhaps Allah knew that by going to the north/south pole and living there we would need technology to get there and having such technology would come with time-keeping and that Muslims could easily adapt by common sense therefore there is no reason to mention this in the Quran and confuse 7th century people about places where sunrise/sunset lasts 6 months. Plus this also serves as a test of faith for Muslims.
But with all of that aside, the issue is at the poles there aren't defined sunrises and sunsets or else you would be fasting for an entire 6 months or waiting 6 months to pray the Fajr prayer. A moon rise does not fit the definition of a Quranic sunrise :(
-
Asalumu Alaikum brother Osama. Thank you very much for your responses!
Is there any chance that you could explain the Quranic exegesis for this point? I don't see the Quran giving this witness rule, it appears that the Quran says if any of us witness it then we should fast it rather then the entirety of Muslims.
As far as the Muslims being witnesses for all nations, I think these verses are referring to muslims being witnesses on the day of resurrection rather than witnessing when Ramadan starts.
Wa Alaikum As'salam dear brother Mclinkin94,
The Witness system is deeply rooted in Islam, in both the Glorious Quran and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Here are some of the Noble Verses:
[002:204] Among people are the likes of the ones whose suave talk about this world charms and astounds you. He (professes good intentions and) invokes Allah as the witness over what exists in his heart. But (in reality) he is the most dogged and quarrelsome opponent.
[002:282] Oh you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed term, reduce it to writing. Let a scribe record the terms in a fair manner. The scribe whom Allah has taught to write should not refuse to write. He should record (the transaction). The one who incurs the debt should spell out the terms. He should fear Allah and not omit anything. If the borrower lacks understanding, or is feeble (minded), or is otherwise unable to dictate, then his guardian should dictate (the conditions of the loan) in a fair manner. Call upon two of your men to act as witnesses (to the contract). Should two men not be available (to act as witnesses), then take one man and two women _ if one of them errs, the other would remind her (women back then were not specialized in financial and mathematical transactions. Men were far more experienced and superior in knowledge) _ that are acceptable to you as witnesses. The witnesses should not refuse if called upon to testify. Do not neglect to write down (all) the (specific) terms (and provisions) of the contract, be they small or big. That, according to Allah is a more reliable evidence, and more likely to dispel doubts (and suspicions). You bear no sin if you fail to record the on-the-spot exchange of goods for cash, that goes on between you (all the time). But, take witnesses when you enter into a commercial contract. Do not harass or harm the scribe or the witnesses. It would be wicked and immoral for you to do so. Fear Allah! (Of course) Allah teaches you (righteousness). Allah has full knowledge of every single thing!
[003:053] "Our Lord, we believe in that which You have revealed, and we follow the messenger. So enroll us among those who bear witness (to the truth)."
[005:107] Later, if it comes to light that the two witnesses merit (the suspicion of) sin, then let two others from among the rightful heirs (of the deceased) take the place of the earlier witnesses. Let them swear by Allah (saying), "Our testimony is truer and more valid than their testimony, and we do not stray beyond the bounds (of truth). Else, we would be the evil doers."
[006:150] Say, "Present your witnesses! Could anyone testify that it is Allah Who has forbidden (all) this?" Even if they do testify (falsely), don't you bear witness with them. Do not follow the whims and wishes of those who reject Our revelations _ those who do not believe in the life-to-come, and deem others as being equal to their Lord.
(I will provide more Noble Verses. I put those together quickly. I will elaborate on this point more by updating this post with move Noble Verses and point, Insha'Allah)
There are many other Noble Verses that speak about producing genuine Witness and relying on genuine Witness. If a Muslim or a community of Muslims Witnesses the time for Prayer or Fasting, then it becomes obligatory upon the others to follow.
Moon rise and moon set wouldn't be considered a sunrise/sunset for 6 months as per Quran. It is not about whether you would be able to tell times at the poles :), we could already do that with our modern day time-keeping. Perhaps Allah knew that by going to the north/south pole and living there we would need technology to get there and having such technology would come with time-keeping and that Muslims could easily adapt by common sense therefore there is no reason to mention this in the Quran and confuse 7th century people about places where sunrise/sunset lasts 6 months. Plus this also serves as a test of faith for Muslims.
Have you read the new points and the Noble Verse that I added to this reply:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282
Your points are thoroughly responded to there. The so many different SUNRISES and SUNSETS that Allah Almighty has Created in the Universe, and over all of the planets including our planet earth, since it was mentioned in the same Noble Verse, clearly prove that you are to work with the Sunrise and Sunset that is given to you. Prayer and Fasting are obligatory upon all Muslims. So Muslims would have to figure out the times for Praying and Fasting no mater which SUNRISE and SUNSET points they may be in.
So as to your quote above "Moon rise and moon set wouldn't be considered a sunrise/sunset for 6 months as per Quran", that is not true at all. The Holy Quran did say that this is a different sunrise and sunset. Therefore, you would have to figure out your times during the day:
1- When is your morning (Fajr, Subh).
2- When is noon (Thuhur).
3- When is your Asr (after noon or midday).
4- When is your maghrib (evening).
5- When is your Isha (night).
The Fajr and Subh, Thuhur, Asr, Maghrib and Isha are all Islamic time-points for Prayer, and also for determining Fasting. So if you live in a land that has a different type of SUNRISE and SUNSET (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282), then you'll have to figure out those times based on the daily rises and settings of that land, whether it is from the sun or the moon.
But with all of that aside, the issue is at the poles there aren't defined sunrises and sunsets or else you would be fasting for an entire 6 months or waiting 6 months to pray the Fajr prayer. A moon rise does not fit the definition of a Quranic sunrise
I already answered this above.
OPEN CHALLENGE TO ALL:
Building Human Colonies on Mars, and the Sunrise and Sunset Issues there:
Let me ask you and ask every Muslim and skeptic this question: Since we today could live to see the day where humans will establish a colony on planet Mars (https://www.google.com/#q=human+colony+on+mars), then could you honestly sit here brother Mclinkin94 and say that the Noble Verses that spoke about Allah Almighty is the LORD OF ALL OF THE SUNRISES AND SUNSETS (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282) on all of the planets in the Universe, and all of the points on earth, wouldn't apply to life on Mars?
In other words, could not the humans there now figure out the proper times for Fasting and Prayer on Mars using the day and night cycles there, and to the best of their calculations and estimations? Did not Allah Almighty also Say the following Noble Verses:
[010:005] He is the One who rendered the sun radiant, and the moon a light, and He designed its phases that you may learn to count the years and to calculate. GOD did not create all this, except for a specific purpose. He explains the revelations for people who know.
[017:012] We rendered the night and the day two signs. We made the night dark, and the day lighted, that you may seek provisions from your Lord therein. This also establishes for you a timing system, and the means of calculation. We thus explain everything in detail.
So why can't we calculate the times for Fasting and Prayers when it is difficult for us to do it with normal Day and Night Cycles? Please visit:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/lunar_calendar_miracle.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
Prophecy of Traveling to Space:
Furthermore, please visit the following links about future space travel:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/precise_prophecy_about_traveling_up_to_space_in_noble_quran.wmv. (By Sheikh Yusuf Estes)
http://www.answering-christianity.com/sci_prophecy.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/space_pressure_in_noble_quran.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/space_pressure_and_lack_of_oxygen.mp3
I would like to renew my reminder to you and to all of the Muslims:
Advise to all Muslims:
Like I said in my previous post (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282), please do not expect the Glorious Quran to mention everything about geology or astronomy. The Holy Quran isn't a science book. However, what you can and should and must expect from the Holy Book is for It to not negate or clash with or contradict an established Scientific fact. That you would be correct on pursuing. But to expect the Holy Quran to mention the North and South poles just wouldn't be fair nor right. The points that I mentioned above, in this post and in the previous one, clearly demonstrate that Allah Almighty's claims about earth never negated nor are they in any contradiction with the fact that earth has North and South Poles, and that the days and nights do take much longer in those places.
The Holy Quran is crystal clear about the earth being Spherical, and having SUNRISES and SUNSETS (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282) (plural for both). Allah Almighty Said about the earth that is:
1- Spherical
2- Is traveling in space.
3- Is rotating around itself.
4- Is speeding in space.
Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm.
Also the moon's orbit around earth is S-Shaped: http://www.answering-christianity.com/moon_orbit_miracle.htm.
To those who believed that earth was flat, and had one fixed point for sunrise and one fixed point for sunset, this statement from Allah Almighty is a contradiction to their false beliefs.
I am telling you again brother, the doomed-to-Hell Islam-hating infidels have nothing on Islam. All Praise and Thanks and Glory are due to Allah Almighty Alone. Please visit:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
-
As'salamu Alaikum everyone,
The following link on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Mechanism+of+The+Seasons+&sm=12) will demonstrate the earth's rotation around the sun, and the four seasons, and the angles of the earth, and how the sun's rays are distributed on earth, and how much light both the North and South poles get during the year, and at which times of the year:
Mechanism of the Seasons (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Mechanism+of+The+Seasons+&sm=12).
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
-
Wa Alaikum As'salam dear brother Mclinkin94,
The Witness system is deeply rooted in Islam, in both the Glorious Quran and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Here are some of the Noble Verses:
[002:204] Among people are the likes of the ones whose suave talk about this world charms and astounds you. He (professes good intentions and) invokes Allah as the witness over what exists in his heart. But (in reality) he is the most dogged and quarrelsome opponent.
[002:282] Oh you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed term, reduce it to writing. Let a scribe record the terms in a fair manner. The scribe whom Allah has taught to write should not refuse to write. He should record (the transaction). The one who incurs the debt should spell out the terms. He should fear Allah and not omit anything. If the borrower lacks understanding, or is feeble (minded), or is otherwise unable to dictate, then his guardian should dictate (the conditions of the loan) in a fair manner. Call upon two of your men to act as witnesses (to the contract). Should two men not be available (to act as witnesses), then take one man and two women _ if one of them errs, the other would remind her (women back then were not specialized in financial and mathematical transactions. Men were far more experienced and superior in knowledge) _ that are acceptable to you as witnesses. The witnesses should not refuse if called upon to testify. Do not neglect to write down (all) the (specific) terms (and provisions) of the contract, be they small or big. That, according to Allah is a more reliable evidence, and more likely to dispel doubts (and suspicions). You bear no sin if you fail to record the on-the-spot exchange of goods for cash, that goes on between you (all the time). But, take witnesses when you enter into a commercial contract. Do not harass or harm the scribe or the witnesses. It would be wicked and immoral for you to do so. Fear Allah! (Of course) Allah teaches you (righteousness). Allah has full knowledge of every single thing!
[003:053] "Our Lord, we believe in that which You have revealed, and we follow the messenger. So enroll us among those who bear witness (to the truth)."
[005:107] Later, if it comes to light that the two witnesses merit (the suspicion of) sin, then let two others from among the rightful heirs (of the deceased) take the place of the earlier witnesses. Let them swear by Allah (saying), "Our testimony is truer and more valid than their testimony, and we do not stray beyond the bounds (of truth). Else, we would be the evil doers."
[006:150] Say, "Present your witnesses! Could anyone testify that it is Allah Who has forbidden (all) this?" Even if they do testify (falsely), don't you bear witness with them. Do not follow the whims and wishes of those who reject Our revelations _ those who do not believe in the life-to-come, and deem others as being equal to their Lord.
(I will provide more Noble Verses. I put those together quickly. I will elaborate on this point more by updating this post with move Noble Verses and point, Insha'Allah)
There are many other Noble Verses that speak about producing genuine Witness and relying on genuine Witness. If a Muslim or a community of Muslims Witnesses the time for Prayer or Fasting, then it becomes obligatory upon the others to follow.
But bro Osama, none of these verses speak about prayer. They are just different verses in different contexts that contain the word witness in them. They don't seem to correlate with sunrise/sunset times of prayer (unless I am missing something).
Your points are thoroughly responded to there. The so many different SUNRISES and SUNSETS that Allah Almighty has Created in the Universe, and over all of the planets including our planet earth, since it was mentioned in the same Noble Verse, clearly prove that you are to work with the Sunrise and Sunset that is given to you. Prayer and Fasting are obligatory upon all Muslims. So Muslims would have to figure out the times for Praying and Fasting no mater which SUNRISE and SUNSET points they may be in.
But there are planets in the universe without suns. There are also planets which have days that last as years. There are planets that are too far from the sun etc. Of course you could figure out the timings of sunrise and sunset IN mecca and pray there at your given planet. That seems to be a solution. But if we are to go to the different sunrises and sunsets of different planets, the times could be shortened or extended. There are planets that have very short days, that means the people living there would be praying every 5 minutes! And there would be others that pray once in a few years! That doesn't seem to do justice.
So as to your quote above "Moon rise and moon set wouldn't be considered a sunrise/sunset for 6 months as per Quran", that is not true at all. The Holy Quran did say that this is a different sunrise and sunset. Therefore, you would have to figure out your times during the day:
1- When is your morning (Fajr, Subh).
2- When is noon (Thuhur).
3- When is your Asr (after noon or midday).
4- When is your maghrib (evening).
5- When is your Isha (night).
The Fajr and Subh, Thuhur, Asr, Maghrib and Isha are all Islamic time-points for Prayer, and also for determining Fasting. So if you live in a land that has a different type of SUNRISE and SUNSET (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282), then you'll have to figure out those times based on the daily rises and settings of that land, whether it is from the sun or the moon.
We could already figure out the times, we don't need the moon anymore :), the issue was that the Quran hasn't told us what to do in that event. The skeptic's conclusion is that the Quran was unaware of such an event. Unfortunately, that conclusion does not follow from the premise. Common sense is left out of the Quran, because all humans can adapt. The Quran didn't tell us what to do if you don't have arms or legs to prostrate to Allah--it doesn't meant the Quran was unaware of such people living.
Let me ask you and ask every Muslim and skeptic this question: Since we today could live to see the day where humans will establish a colony on planet Mars (https://www.google.com/#q=human+colony+on+mars), then could you honestly sit here brother Mclinkin94 and say that the Noble Verses that spoke about Allah Almighty is the LORD OF ALL OF THE SUNRISES AND SUNSETS (http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282) on all of the planets in the Universe, and all of the points on earth, wouldn't apply to life on Mars?
No, of course not. But that verse does not say that ALL places have sunrises and sunsets :). As far as colonization to Mars, the mars day and night cycle isn't that bad, but I would say if I were on mars, I would be praying at sunrise AT mecca. What do you think about that?
In other words, could not the humans there now figure out the proper times for Fasting and Prayer on Mars using the day and night cycles there, and to the best of their calculations and estimations? Did not Allah Almighty also Say the following Noble Verses:
No, I agree that it is possible, but the issue is justice. Many people would be fasting for 20 hours and others only for 8 hours. Also many people would have to be praying once a year and many five times a day if we were all to follow the day and night cycles there.
[010:005] He is the One who rendered the sun radiant, and the moon a light, and He designed its phases that you may learn to count the years and to calculate. GOD did not create all this, except for a specific purpose. He explains the revelations for people who know.
Agreed! Imagine if humans existed in a different world with different laws of physics in which there would be no phases or anything to determine time. I think that would actually slow down human progress.
So why can't we calculate the times for Fasting and Prayers when it is difficult for us to do it with normal Day and Night Cycles? Please visit:
We can, but the issue is, it appears as if we have to follow the prayer times AT mecca for the varying sunrises and sunsets of the worlds. Allah is the lord of the sunrises and sunsets of the worlds, but perhaps he made us pray at THE sunrise and sunset AT mecca.
I feel like this is the best solution as everything varies. Is there any indication in the Quran that we are to pray at the times IN mecca?
-
Brother Osama, Could you please clarify the witness system of prayer please in the Quran. I think it is just something I am not seeing in its translation that you do see :)
-
We can, but the issue is, it appears as if we have to follow the prayer times AT mecca for the varying sunrises and sunsets of the worlds. Allah is the lord of the sunrises and sunsets of the worlds, but perhaps he made us pray at THE sunrise and sunset AT mecca.
As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,
Not Mecca's time. You follow the vertical time that you are on. And today, with simple Google search, you find exactly when Prayer and Fasting times occur.
As to the Witness System, I already elaborated on it in great details above, akhi.
Colonizing Mars:
We've seen above the Glorious Quran's Prophecy about man will eventually penetrate space. Today, man is speaking about colonizing planet Mars. Certainly, the Prayer and Fasting times there would have to be estimated based on what the population reckons the times to be.
Think about it. Allah Almighty told us that we will penetrate space, and we will also see all of His Miracles that testify to the Truth of the Glorious Quran's Divine claims:
www.answering-christianity.com/sci_prophecy.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/precise_prophecy_about_traveling_up_to_space_in_noble_quran.wmv (By Sheikh Yusuf Estes)
www.answering-christianity.com/space_pressure_in_noble_quran.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/space_pressure_and_lack_of_oxygen.mp3
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
Ok, so how will we then calculate/reckon Fasting and Praying on other planets? It will have to be done through reasonable calculations based on either the sunrises and sets of those planets, or by calculating and setting fixed times.
Similarly, our North and South Poles' Prayer and Fasting time determination are done based on fixing certain times, usually based on the near by lands' sunrise and sunset cycles, and their vertical time zones.
I hope this helps, Insha'Allah.
Take care,
Osama Abdallah