Author Topic: The rationalized  (Read 9935 times)

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Offline abdullah

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The rationalized
« on: October 01, 2013, 09:51:48 PM »
Ayy guys I'm opening up this new thread so we can refute each one of the rationalizers claims one by one. I have already found a satisfactory response to his flat earth video by dawahfilms it's called "Ex Muslims flat earth" and a while back we refuted his claims on idhaam instrad of ghurdoof. These neo-atheists think think they have something against islam. Let's debunk every one of his claims on errors in the Quran as I don't see any other Muslims bothering to do it. They have gone long unchallenged and it's time for us to refute him. Guys please contribute to this thread. This thread is only to debunk his claims on errors in the Qur'an not to defend the scientific miracles in the Qur'an. Muslims have left Islam because of him and I believe it is time to stand u to his claims. Inshallah we will debunk every one of his claims.

Offline ThatMuslimGuy

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Re: The rationalized
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2013, 04:40:23 PM »
Hey if you link some of his claims im happy to help out.

Offline abdullah

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Re: The rationalized
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2013, 05:42:28 PM »
Assalamulaykum bro,
I opened this thread to disprove all of his claims of errors in the Qur'an. Can you help me prove that the ayahs in the Quran that state the heavens are a canopy are metaphorical and not literal.

Offline The Canadian Atheist

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Re: The rationalized
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2013, 07:50:34 PM »
Assalamulaykum bro,
I opened this thread to disprove all of his claims of errors in the Qur'an. Can you help me prove that the ayahs in the Quran that state the heavens are a canopy are metaphorical and not literal.

Tip: Any verse that contradicts modern science or logic and reasoning is metaphorical.

Offline abdullah

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Re: The rationalized
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2013, 10:03:25 PM »
Assalamualaykum
I found something which might prove these ayat are metaphorical. In surah 81 ayah 1 it says when the sun is covered up, but the word that it uses for covering up is kwrt which is only used for wrapping around round things. So how can the heavens be a canopy if the Quran says the sun is round.
Mr. Canadian Atheist I appreciate your snide remarks, but what I meant was if we took a literal interpreation of these ayat it would contradict other ayat.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 11:16:52 PM by abdullah »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: The rationalized
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2013, 06:41:15 AM »
Quote
Tip: Any verse that contradicts modern science or logic and reasoning is metaphorical.
Tip : Get over yourself . NOTHING in the noble Quran contradicts logic and reason or science . Again , one conversation will prove that you judgement is based on ignorance and emotional issues .

Offline ThatMuslimGuy

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Re: The rationalized
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2013, 11:25:27 AM »
AsalamuAlaikum,

So what is his claim? That the Samaa (sky/heaven) isn't a roof or a canopy?

Offline abdullah

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Re: The rationalized
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2013, 12:58:01 PM »
assalamulaykum he claims that the author of the Qur'an thought the sky is a physical roof over the earth

Offline Ishfaq

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Re: The rationalized
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2013, 05:10:28 AM »
Tip: Any verse that contradicts modern science or logic and reasoning is metaphorical.
    1. this verse is not metaphorical, as the heavens [ie anything in space above earth, the heavenly bodies] are held from falling onto earth i[ ie colliding with trhe eath] by the centrifugal force.
     2. meaning of the word heaven:
      in the Quran, the word heaven is used in two senses: [a]. in the first sense, the extraterristerial space is referred to as the heaven and the heavenly bodies constitute the first heaven. Quan says, '' and he decorated the nearest haeaven with stars''. The nearest heaven refers to the first heaven, as there are 7 heavens. In the second semce , heaven refers to the layers of the atmosphere, which are also seven. allah says in the quran, 'he sends down rain from the heaven'. the layers of the atmosphere are also seven:
  • troposphere
    stratosphere
    ozone layer
    mesosphere
    thermosphere
    exosphere
    magnetosphere
      the ionosphere is present in the thermosphere  and mesosphere.
3.     why did allah swt not use the term heavenly bodies directly?
        the quran is not only meant for our time but for all times to come and all people in all the corners of the world and itr was also meant for the Arabs of that time. the term heaven, when it was used in the Quran 1400 years ago, was understood well by the Companions of the Prophet [pbuh], as per their knowledge, as at that time heaven ereferred to anything above the surface of earth. with time, when later scholars came, they understood it according to their own knowledge. similarly, in our time the universe is vastly unexplored and we have not even peeped otside the material universe. and hence we cannot prove  the exixtence of the other heavens or we cannot disprove it. what can be said about it is only frrom the knowledge of the reveletion. in order not to confuse the earlier generations, the term samaa was used.
 

Offline The Canadian Atheist

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Re: The rationalized
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2013, 10:09:28 AM »
Abdullah, I'm not a Muslim, but you don't have to be a Muslim to know that during the Islamic era, a spherical Earth was common knowledge. Several Arabs calculated the circumference of the Earth. Any mentions of a flat Earth in ancient scripture are at best, accidental. No one in history ever believed in a flat Earth. I suggest you read the "Flat Earth myth" on Wikipedia. The only reason many people today think that ancients believed the Earth was flat was because it was a lie repeated by the Catholic Church.

Quote
These neo-atheists think think they have something against islam

Whoa, don't generalize them all!
I, as an atheist, acknowledge that there are scientifically relevant verses in the Qur'an, but they're not miracles, they were well known facts. For example, the big bang, an expanding universe, the expanding universe is mentioned in the Bible, long before that, in Hindu scripture.
Tip: Any verse that contradicts modern science or logic and reasoning is metaphorical.
    1. this verse is not metaphorical, as the heavens [ie anything in space above earth, the heavenly bodies] are held from falling onto earth i[ ie colliding with trhe eath] by the centrifugal force.
     2. meaning of the word heaven:
      in the Quran, the word heaven is used in two senses: [a]. in the first sense, the extraterristerial space is referred to as the heaven and the heavenly bodies constitute the first heaven. Quan says, '' and he decorated the nearest haeaven with stars''. The nearest heaven refers to the first heaven, as there are 7 heavens. In the second semce , heaven refers to the layers of the atmosphere, which are also seven. allah says in the quran, 'he sends down rain from the heaven'. the layers of the atmosphere are also seven:
  • troposphere
    stratosphere
    ozone layer
    mesosphere
    thermosphere
    exosphere
    magnetosphere
      the ionosphere is present in the thermosphere  and mesosphere.
3.     why did allah swt not use the term heavenly bodies directly?
        the quran is not only meant for our time but for all times to come and all people in all the corners of the world and itr was also meant for the Arabs of that time. the term heaven, when it was used in the Quran 1400 years ago, was understood well by the Companions of the Prophet [pbuh], as per their knowledge, as at that time heaven ereferred to anything above the surface of earth. with time, when later scholars came, they understood it according to their own knowledge. similarly, in our time the universe is vastly unexplored and we have not even peeped otside the material universe. and hence we cannot prove  the exixtence of the other heavens or we cannot disprove it. what can be said about it is only frrom the knowledge of the reveletion. in order not to confuse the earlier generations, the term samaa was used.

I am really sorry to tell you this, but the Magnetosphere is not a layer of the atmosphere. I believe the seven heavens in the Qur'an are referring to the seven heavenly bodies. The ancients thought there were only seven heavenly bodies. Pluto is no longer considered a planet, that brings us down to six. Two new planets were discovered that brings our number to eight planets. Our days of the week are named after the seven ancient heavenly bodies.
"The seven planets of the old cosmology included the Sun (Sol) and the Moon (Luna), which we now don't regard as planets at all.   The other five were Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn."

The correct layers of the atmosphere are:



    Troposphere
    Stratosphere
    Mesosphere
    Thermosphere
    Exosphere

« Last Edit: October 04, 2013, 10:14:50 AM by The Canadian Atheist »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: The rationalized
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2013, 02:32:03 PM »
I'm actually glad that you lowered that sharp tone a bit . But still .

Quote
I believe the seven heavens in the Qur'an are referring to the seven heavenly bodies. The ancients thought there were only seven heavenly bodies. Pluto is no longer considered a planet, that brings us down to six. Two new planets were discovered that brings our number to eight planets. Our days of the week are named after the seven ancient heavenly bodies.
"The seven planets of the old cosmology included the Sun (Sol) and the Moon (Luna), which we now don't regard as planets at all.   The other five were Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn."
I already told you , mate , if you don't know about Islam then don't talk like you do . You see what's underlined ? That's the bottom line .You should keep that belief of yours to yourself . Quran says seven heavens . IT clearly doesn't say "Seven heavenly bodies" . And once again you talk like Islam=Christianity=Any other religion . Atheists REALLY need to get rid of this narrow view of theirs . As for the days of the week , they show your - and I don't use it as an insult - lack of knowledge about the days in Arabic and therefore in Islam . In Arabic , they are called starting from Saturday :
1 -Sabt meaning a period of time or taking a rest . It is said that it meets the Hebrew "Shabt" meaning also to rest which Jews believe is the day Allah took rest exalted he is .
2 - Ahad meaning one . And it formerly was called "The first" as in the first day of week although we take Saturday as the first now .
3 - Ithnain meaning two or second .
4 - Thulatha meaning three or third
5 - Arbi'a meaning four or fourth .
6 - Khamees meaning five or fifth .
7 - Jum'a meaning to a gathering .
You need to stop using the logic that all religions are the same . You claimed you "tried" them all but you clearly no nothing about any of them .

Offline The Canadian Atheist

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Re: The rationalized
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2013, 04:08:08 PM »
I'm actually glad that you lowered that sharp tone a bit . But still .

Quote
I believe the seven heavens in the Qur'an are referring to the seven heavenly bodies. The ancients thought there were only seven heavenly bodies. Pluto is no longer considered a planet, that brings us down to six. Two new planets were discovered that brings our number to eight planets. Our days of the week are named after the seven ancient heavenly bodies.
"The seven planets of the old cosmology included the Sun (Sol) and the Moon (Luna), which we now don't regard as planets at all.   The other five were Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn."
I already told you , mate , if you don't know about Islam then don't talk like you do . You see what's underlined ? That's the bottom line .You should keep that belief of yours to yourself . Quran says seven heavens . IT clearly doesn't say "Seven heavenly bodies" . And once again you talk like Islam=Christianity=Any other religion . Atheists REALLY need to get rid of this narrow view of theirs . As for the days of the week , they show your - and I don't use it as an insult - lack of knowledge about the days in Arabic and therefore in Islam . In Arabic , they are called starting from Saturday :
1 -Sabt meaning a period of time or taking a rest . It is said that it meets the Hebrew "Shabt" meaning also to rest which Jews believe is the day Allah took rest exalted he is .
2 - Ahad meaning one . And it formerly was called "The first" as in the first day of week although we take Saturday as the first now .
3 - Ithnain meaning two or second .
4 - Thulatha meaning three or third
5 - Arbi'a meaning four or fourth .
6 - Khamees meaning five or fifth .
7 - Jum'a meaning to a gathering .
You need to stop using the logic that all religions are the same . You claimed you "tried" them all but you clearly no nothing about any of them .

-yawn-
Ad Hominems again.

This time I will bother to reply to you.

Yea, you already told me that thing about the Arabic days of the week. But still, the days of the week are named after the seven heavenly bodies. I gave that as an example. There are NOT seven layers in the atmosphere, that is referring to the seven heavenly bodies.

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: The rationalized
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2013, 04:14:05 AM »
Quote
-yawn-
Ad Hominems again.
You can take your flashy words and keep them in any old rusty drawers you have . I'm stating a fact . Someone who knows 0 about Islam should never talk about it . Call it Ad whatever you want . It still doesn't disprove the fact that you demonstrated ignorance of Islam day in and day out .

Quote
This time I will bother to reply to you.
You really need to get over yourself . You call the following Ad hominem and I call it a side note . From what I mostly see in Atheists , they think that because they denied God , they became so intelligent and that they're now scientists who don't have time to waste with these retarded religious people . At the same time , you find them spamming nonsense about religion and waste their day doing so . Ignorance is one thing . But ignorance + arrogance is unbearable .

Quote
Yea, you already told me that thing about the Arabic days of the week. But still, the days of the week are named after the seven heavenly bodies. I gave that as an example.
OK , what kind of a joke is this ? I tell you about days and their names in Islam and you STILL talk about naming days after the heavenly bodies ? For the millionth time : Islam <> Christianity . I won't keep repeating this if you can't understand such a simple thing . The point is , your example is out . The second thing is how you have so much nerve say such a clear lie about Quran . It says "Seven heavens" and you say "Seven heavenly bodies" . If you want to fake evidence against Quran then don't think it's easy like faking ones for evolution . As for the seven heavens , Allah knows best of them . I know your next reply so I'll be waiting .

Offline abdullah

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Re: The rationalized
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2013, 11:47:52 AM »
Mr. Canadian Atheist, I am nicely asking you to bring better objections to Islam. Your seven hevenly bodies argument is too weak for me to even repond to it. But, I will respond anyways, Their is an ayah in the quran that says the stars, the sun, and the moon are all in the first heaven.

 

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