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Offline muslimforever2012

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Christian claimed this.
« on: September 01, 2017, 01:24:29 PM »
Assalamu alaikum and Eid mubarak everyone.

I know I asked this before, but I just need this last answer. A Christian told me that he knows that marrying children were common but he told me that Muhammad was wrong in marrying Aisha because:

1. Aisha was 6 and she didn't hit puberty and couldn't consent. He told me that she probably didn't even know about marriage.
2. He said Muhammad's example was for all time and in this time child marriage is not appropriate.

I told him about the child marriages in the Bible but he said their example was not for all time.

Sorry if I disturbed anyone.

Thanks.

Offline AMuslimDude213

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Re: Christian claimed this.
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2017, 01:47:40 PM »
1 Is absurd and stupid,
If A'isha R.A was 6 explain the historical maths

If we look at the undisputed, well-documented historical facts, we can immediately deduce that A’isha was NOT a child when she married the Prophet [pbuh]. She was actually 16 at the time of her betrothal (engagement) to the Prophet, and 19 when she married and moved in with him.

A chronological documentation of major events in A’isha’s life is as follows:

A’isha was born before Islam was revealed in 610, and accepted Islam shortly after it was revealed.
The Hijra occurred in 622
A’isha’s older sister (of 10 years), Asmaa, was 27 at the time of Hijra, making A’isha 17 at the time of Hijra.
A’isha was betrothed to the Prophet two years after the death of Khadijah, or a year before the Hijrah.
A’isha moved in with the Prophet a year or two after the Hijrah, or two to four years after her betrothal. (Various reports are unclear, but all agree as to the general time frame.)
A’isha was involved in the battles of Badr (624) and Uhud (625), in neither of which was anyone under the age of 15 allowed.
A’isha was widowed in 633
A’isha died in 672 at the age of 67. (We know that her older sister, Asmaa, died at the age of 100 in the year 695, which means she was 77 at the time of A’isha’s death.)
So again, based on the timeline above, we can conclude that A’isha was 16 at the time of her engagement to the Prophet [pbuh], and 19 when she married and moved in with him.



Now you will ask where did this come from?

All of the reports that say that A’isha was 6 at the time of her engagement, and 9 at the time of her marriage, come from Iraq.
Most of these reports come from Asmaa’s grandson, Hisham bin ‘Urwa (born in 683).
None of the reports come from Mecca or Medina, where Hisham bin ‘Urwa spent the first 70 years of his life.
Hisham spent the last 15 years of his life in Iraq, where all of the reports come from.
It is reported that as he became older, Hisham’s memory suffered quite badly.
When we look at this information, we learn some very interesting facts. Hisham bin ‘Urwa (who was born after A’isha died) spent the majority of his life in Madina, and yet no one else from Madina ever confirmed his reports about A’isha’s age at the time of her marriage.

One of Hisham’s most well known students was Malik ibn Anas, and even he objected on the narratives of Hisham which were reported by the people of Iraq.

So essentially what we’re dealing with here is a false hadith which was misreported by an elderly man with a bad memory. That’s understandable, but that brings us to the next question: Why wasn’t this hadith checked, double-checked, and triple-checked? Especially since it is included in Sahih Bukhari, the most widely accepted hadith collection!

Okay,now number 2
He is for all times,thats why A'isha R.A was 16

NOT 6 and now most countries marry at 16,infact this argument is again absurd,because the problem is he doesn't focus on the other wives,
he ignores them and uses biased explanation,

So if we were to see the age of his other wives we see there are many different examples NOT just A'isha R.A.

Offline Albarra

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Re: Christian claimed this.
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2017, 04:21:26 PM »
Wa-alaikum-salam

Muhammad (SAWS) told Aisha that a girl who is silent must be consulted for marriage, according to several hadith.

In fact, when a girl asked the Prophet about her complaint for forced marriage, he supported her rights.

Regarding Aisha's age, she said that she already reached her puberty, so I think that 6 or 9-year-old in a hadith is an error.

Besides, other Muhammad's wives were much older than Aisha whatsoever.

If he was a pedophile, than he would marry all young girls.




 





Offline shaad

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Re: Christian claimed this.
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2017, 11:41:05 AM »
This Iraqi guy wrote an interesting and thought provoking article concerning this subject....you should also check the comments....


http://azblogtalk.blogspot.com/?m=1

Offline muslimforever2012

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Re: Christian claimed this.
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2017, 02:49:42 AM »
This Iraqi guy wrote an interesting and thought provoking article concerning this subject....you should also check the comments....


http://azblogtalk.blogspot.com/?m=1

I couldn't find the article. Can you please give me the link?

Offline shaad

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Re: Christian claimed this.
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2017, 04:24:41 AM »
The article is infact a rebuttal to the Masked Arab....

http://azblogtalk.blogspot.com/2016/02/why-masked-arab-is-masked-falsehood.html

Offline H.

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Re: Christian claimed this.
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2017, 05:44:45 PM »
Ok just for a response,

Firstly aisha did hit puberty: Narrated AISHA: (the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of PUBERTY. Not a day passed but the Prophet visited us, both in the mornings and evenings.” (Sahih al-Bukhari volume 1, Book 8, Hadith 465

Also we can tell she hit it from external evidence too.

Shaikh Abdur-Rahman Al-Mubarakpuri in his commentary on Sunan al-Tirmidhi said:

 

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Aisha knew (that she hit puberty) when she became nine years old. (Shaikh Abdur-Rahman Al-Mubarakpuri, Tuhfat AI-Ahwadhi, Kitab: al-Nikah, Bab: Maa Jaa'a fee Ikraah Al Yateemah 'alaa al tazweej, Hadith no. 1027, Source)

Narrated Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) “I do not remember (A’QAL) my parents believing in any religion other than the Religion (of Islam), and our being visited by Allah’s Messenger in the morning and in the evening. One day, while we were sitting in the house of Abu Bakr (my father) at noon, someone said, ‘This is Allah’s Messenger coming at an hour at which he never used to visit us.’ Abu Bakr said, ‘There must be something very urgent that has brought him at this hour.’ The Prophet said, ‘I have been allowed to go out (of Mecca) to migrate.'” (Sahih al-Bukhari volume 8, Book 73, Hadith 102, https://sunnah.com/bukhari/78/107 )
In the two narrations we have read we see that Aisha had seen her parents follow Islam since she ‘attained the age of puberty’ and in the second report she was mentally mature. She goes on to say that a day did not pass, but that the Prophet Muhammad visited her (Aisha) and her parents. The Hadith reports presented shows that Aisha had reached puberty and had mentally matured to discern things while she still living with her parents, before the marriage was consummated to Prophet Muhammed (p).

Some critics have cast doubt on the Hadith where it mentions that Aisha hit “puberty” and claim that the translation that was made by the renowned scholar Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan is unreliable. As such we looked at Arabic-English Dictionaries on the word a’qal. The late professor Hans Wehr (1909 – 1981) who studied at the University of Munster published a book, “A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic”. He comments on the word “A’qal”:

“… a’qal more reasonable; brighter, smarter, more intelligent | … a’qal al’umr the most reasonable time of life, the years of reason and MATURITY.” (Hans Wehr A Dictionary of Modern written Arabic [Edited by John Milton – Spoken Language Services, Inc. 1976],  page 737)
Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan’s rendering of “puberty” in the first report is line with Professor Hans Wehr’s understanding of the Arabic language.

The narrations presented prove that Aisha had already hit puberty before the consummation of the marriage taken place.

Additionally, we have another narration where science attests that Aisha had hit puberty before the marriage was consummated. The following report states:

Narrated Aisha: The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. THEN I GOT ILL AND MY HAIR FELL DOWN. LATER ON MY HAIR GREW (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Sahih al-Bukhari volume 5, Book 58, Hadith 234)
The above narration is also reported in Sunan Ibn Majah:

“Aishah said: “The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six years old. Then we came to Al-Madinah and settled among Banu Harith bin Khazraj. I BECAME ILL AND MY HAIR FELL OUT, THEN IT GREW BACK AND BECAME ABUNDANT. My mother Umm Ruman came to me while I was on an Urjuhah with some of my friends, and called for me. I went to her, and I did not know what she wanted. She took me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house, and I was panting. When I got my breath back, she took some water and wiped my face and head, and led me into the house. There were some woman of the Ansar inside the house, and they said: ‘With blessings and good fortune (from Allah).’ (My mother) handed me over to them and they tidied me up. And suddenly I saw the Messenger of Allah in the morning. And she handed me over to him and I was at that time, nine years old.” (Sahih) Sunan Ibn Majah volume 3, Book 9, Hadith 1876., Sahih Darussalam, http://www.sunnah.com/ibnmajah/9 )
It’s important to pay close attention to the above two narrations. Some may wonder, what is important about the part in the narration that is capitalized in bold, where it says,

“Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew”
This part of the Hadith shows explicitly from the point of science that Aisha hit puberty before the marriage was consummated with the Prophet (p). Hair loss is common among women. Hair loss happens when a girl goes through changes with her body i.e, hitting puberty.

Shannon Harrison, Melissa Piliang and Wilma explain why, when hair disorders occur:

“DEFINITION
Alopecia is the general term for hair loss. Hair loss can occur from the scalp and any hair-bearing part of the body. Hair has great social and cultural importance, and patients with hair loss experience anxiety and concern…..
PREVALENCE
….The most common form of hair loss is androgenetic alopecia (pattern hair loss), which increases with age; at least 80% of white men show some degree of thinning by the age of 70 year. Androgenetic alopecia OCCURS WITH THE ONSET OF PUBERTY and in males is dependent on circulating androgens. FEMALE PATTERN HAIR LOSS (female androgenetic alopecia) ALSO STARTS AFTER PUBERTY…” (Current Clinical Medicine: Expert Consult [Second edition – Elsevier Inc, 2010], by Shannon Harrison, Melissa Piliang, & Wilma Bergfeld, page 289 – 290)


So yes she did hit puberty




Offline H.

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Re: Christian claimed this.
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2017, 05:51:11 PM »
To continue, here is a answer which i made earlier on youtube answering the its bad to marry children claim ans the claim that if muhammad was the role model we should to it too, remember this is not adressed to you but rather was adressed as a youtube comment to a anti muhammad. Just keep in mind yes aisha was 6 and 9 this is an old comment when i used to hear theories that she was 16 which i will adress amuslimdude123 comment on

ok with regard to aisha, firstly him saying it is bad is subjective based on nothing, in islam there is a rule if the women has hit puberty and it wont cause harm there is no problem, aisha got no harm and she hit puberty, next if what muhammad saws did was bad why didnt she reject him as a prophet he didnt rape her, and for the fact of the matter, aisha was marrying somebody else but then she married muhammad saws. also the people of the quraish who would curse muhammad, call him magician, bewitched etc. but never challenged the age of aisha firstly watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Kg-vEv_7R0 then tommy says accoridng to the law today this would be punishable by etc. i dont care what your subjective law of the 21cst century is, why are you superimposing your law on the 7th century? Montesquieu in his book "The Spirit of the Laws" which became later one of the foundations of the US law says in that book: "Women are marriageable in hot climates at eight, nine, and ten years of age. thus, childhood and marriage almost always go together there. They are old at twenty: thus reason in women is never found with beauty there" and http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/09/09/age-of-consent-in-european-american-history/ http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/why_did_prophet_muhammed_marry_aisha_at_a_young_age__is_that_morally_right__what_about_paedophilia___by_dan_1988 http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/refuting_sam_shamoun_s_arguments_regarding_the_prophet_s_marriage_to_aisha https://discover-the-truth.com/2017/02/28/5-facts-about-aisha-and-muhammeds-marriage/http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm#_ftn1 http://www.islamawareness.net/FAQ/aisha_new.html also according to hadith she was smart and knew things others did not, “Abu Musa said: Whenever there was any hadith that was difficult [to understand] for us, the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, and we asked Aisha we always found that she had knowledge about that hadith.” “Musa ibn Talha said: I never saw anyone more eloquent than Aisha.” the first ever time someone complained about their marriage was in 1905, so clearly there were no issues with it, also if this was peculiar why didnt anyone say such a thing at least for 1200 years, why didnt her parents object, why didnt anyone make a comment. As i showed you the age of consent in the past, facts about thier marriage, showing she hit puberty, the first time the objection was made was in 1905 which makes this event not weird in history, she was well able to reason, was eloquent and smart. Also again her age is not for certain see the very first link. to conclude the age for marriage in the quran is if one has reached sound judgement, meaning they can understand, they can reason, some tafseers say tthis speaks of her reaching puberty and also being able to think straight. see: https://discover-the-truth.com/2014/11/21/minimum-age-for-marriage-in-the-quran/ also, no the prophet didnt say, i want your daughter abu bakr, thr lady who recomended it was, khawrah, again see this link: https://discover-the-truth.com/2017/02/28/5-facts-about-aisha-and-muhammeds-marriage/ No muhammad is a normal human being living in that culture. Was it bad those days? No, if Muhammad had lived in england in the 14th century, he couldve done all of this completely legal. So in england 800 years after the prophet this was still normal, there was nothing peculiar about it,this day and age you are right, but those times when you hit puberty you were thought of as being a woman, and from my links i already showed you she hit puberty, was smart, could reason etc. well what does the quran say, let see: https://discover-the-truth.com/2014/11/21/minimum-age-for-marriage-in-the-quran/ so hit puberty and have sound judgement/ is mentally ready for it. nowadays you see 15 year olds they definitely are not mentally ready for marriage, but lets see about aisha. She was smart, could reason, understood/knew things better than others, hit puberty, that day and age was legal. So if she hits puberty, she is mentally ready, she can reason, is smart, understands things better than others showing she is smart, it was completely legal from then till even in some places in 1880 ( https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/09/09/age-of-consent-in-european-american-history/ ) nowadays 9 is not fine, why not? Well firstly they dont really reach puberty at that age, they are not ready for it, cannot reason, is not smart etc. aisha was, so whats the problem, also why did he marry her? Was it a marriafe if pedophelia? Well then why did he not marry more children if that was the case? pls tell me. all his wives were not children, except for her and it was completely aceptable to marry children then, so why didnt he do it? list of marriages: Khadija bint khawilad 40 Twice widowed before Sauda Bint Zama 50 Widow Aisha bint Abu Bakr 9 Started living with the prophet at the age of 9. Hafsa Bint Umar bin Khattab 22 Widow Zainab bint Khuzaima 30 Umm-I-Salma bint Abu Umayia 26 Widow Zainab Bint Jahash 38 Widow Juwaeria Bint Harith 20 Widow Umm-I-Habiba bint Abu Sufyan 36 Widow Marya Qibtiya bint shamun 17 Virgin, Egyptian Safia bint Hayi bin Akhtab 17 Widow Raihana bint umru bin hanafa Not available Maimuna bint harith 36 why are all his marriages except for 1 or 2 widows, and why only 1 child if he was this supposed pedophile? Or did he marry her for a different reason? http://www.islamawareness.net/FAQ/aisha_new.html to conclude, that day, aisha hit puberty at 9, was mentaly ready, was smart could reason, understood things that others didnt showing she was smart. it was legal in some places until 1880 why didnt he marry children the whole time, or more than 1 if he was a pedophile as you claim, again this link http://www.islamawareness.net/FAQ/aisha_new.html 9 not acceptable now as they do not hit puberty, they are not mentaly ready for it, cant reason, arent smart etc. also, he wasnt the one that suggested the marriage with her links for supporting proofs: puberty and not suggesting the marriage, https://discover-the-truth.com/2017/02/28/5-facts-about-aisha-and-muhammeds-marriage/ she was smart, could reason, knew things better than others, http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm#_ftn1 age of consent in 1880, https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/09/09/age-of-consent-in-european-american-history/ not a pedophile for the reasons mentioned, above and this link: http://www.islamawareness.net/FAQ/aisha_new.html also many people think their marriage was also for political reasons as it would put abu bakr in a highj place even if muhammad died as he was the father of aisha, either way, different point. also finally, it is not a 100% she was that age, as it still contradicts with some historical things, sites that make such a claim are these: http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm#_ftn1 http://hameem.org/index.php/multimedia/articles/89-articles/149-proof-that-aisha-was-over-15-years-old-when-she-married-the-prophet-peace-be-upon-him http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_5/age_of_aisha_(P1472).html but personally i accept the age of 9, also tell me why the first time ever being criticized was 1905, why not earlier if it was so bad, also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE_zypf8DAU&t=406s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOhyhxOKI4E http://www.islamawareness.net/FAQ/aisha_new.htmlhttp://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm#_ftn1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsYk-tRp9jk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zauvfaGzyzQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Kg-vEv_7R0https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM4IuDVFL3s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5LZHTEv1BI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8eeHRAIaIc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE_zypf8DAU&t=406s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsYk-tRp9jk&t=6s

muhammad said la dirar wa la dirar, meaning do not cause harm to yourself or to others, so aisha was not put into harm, nor is there any hadith to say she was put in harm, so this is an argument from ignorance and from silence and from no proof also: One of the most common polemic thrown against Islam is the prophet Muhammad’s marriage to Abu Bakr’s daughter Aisha. The Anti-Islamic’s claim that the marriage was very wrong due to Aisha’s young age. I will not be going through this subject in vast detail since the topic has already been sufficiently dealt with. What I will be doing is to simply give a short summary of points which refutes the entire anti-Islamic’s position. This will make it easier for Muslims in the future to be able to respond to Christians who bring this argument up. 1- If the marriage was so wrong, then why didn’t Aisha’s mother object to the marriage? Instead she happily gave Aisha for marriage, and prepared her for the marriage 2- Why didn’t Abu bakr the father of Aisha object to the marriage? If it was so wrong you would expect the father to have not allowed such a marriage to take place. 3- Why did the women who were present with Aisha when she was about to be given to the prophet for marriage wished her luck and were happy for her. If the marriage was wrong, the women present would have been sad, and they would not have been happy for Aisha, rather what we see is that they were happy for Aisha and had no problems with this marriage whatsoever. 4- Are we supposed to assume that Abu Bakr, and Aisha’s mother, and the women present with Aisha are all pedophiles and child molesters? Indeed such a conclusion with be very ignorant, and arrogant. 5- Why didn’t any of the prophet’s enemies use this against the prophet Muhammad? If the marriage was so wrong, then you would expect to find his enemies to be the first ones to start using this against him, instead what we find is that his enemies NEVER EVEN ONCE brought this marriage up in a negative way against him. 6- In fact why didn’t any of the Arabs around the Hijazi area object or talk against this marriage? It was not only the pagan Arabs in Hijaz who didn’t object to this marriage, but the surrounding Arabs didn’t object to it neither! 7- Are we to assume that ALL these Arabs were pedophiles and child molesters? Indeed such a conclusion would make the one making this conclusion a very stupid man, because only a very stupid arrogant man would accuse an entire race of being child molesters and pedophiles. 8- Why is there not a SINGLE hadith from Aisha showing her being displeased of the marriage? Why is there not one hadith from Aisha showing her to be like a victim, instead when you look at Aisha you find no symptoms of a victim. She became a great leader for Islam, a great scholar for Islam who would teach about Islam to many men. Does this seem to be the symptoms of someone who has been abused? 9-If Aisha was indeed a victim and so on, then why did she love the prophet Muhammad so much, and would sometimes get jelous around him because she loved him so much, does this sound like someone who is a victim? 10- from all the hadith literature we have, we can confidently say that if Aisha was alive today, that she would distance herself from these Christians making these sick arguments, and that she would want nothing to do with these people, this in itself speaks volumes since these people making this sick argument are supposed to be the good guys who are trying to be helpful. All these points made here are enough to refute the Anti-Islamic’s entire position, and they themselves know this. I could show more points, showing that the age of marriage in the past used to be at a very young age, something history agrees with, but these Anti-Islamic’s are so hate filled and arrogant they will say ALL OF HISTORY is wrong but only today in our modern world we are right. Yet if we look at our modern world, we are a disgrace, and the past is much better than us, look at us today in the modern world. You have men marrying each other; you have late night television showing people having sex like animals doing all sort of sick things. You have people dropping atomic bombs on each other; you have countries invading other countries to take all their natural resources. And this is just the tip of the ice-berg, much more bad things could be said about our modern world, but something which I do find interesting is most of the bad things occurring in our modern world is a result of western Christian influenced societies, that says it all.

firstly you are claiming this to be bad for no reasons, she had hit puberty there was no harm, there was consent from her and her parents, she was going to marry someone else, she was the duaghter of his best friend, she was smart and has done so much for the religion and ready for marriage. you act like it is so bad, well if it was, why then was the firs time it was called bad in 1905 even though the information was widely available were all americans child molesting pedos? but well over 30 States had the age of consent at 10. The following States had the age of consent at 10 in the 1800s: 1. Alabama 2. Arkansas 3. California 4. Colorado 5. Florida 6. Georgia 7. Idaho 8. Iowa 9. Kansas 10. Maine 11. Maryland 12. Massachusetts 13. Michigan 14. Minnesota 15. Mississippi 16. Montana 17. Nebraska 18. New Hampshire 19. New Jersey 20. New York 21. North Carolina 22. North Dakota 23. Ohio 24. Oregon 25. Pennsylvania 26. Rhode Island 27. South Carolina 28. South Dakota 29. Tennessee 30. Texas 31. Vermont 32. Wisconsin 33. Wyoming montesqiue a french philospher on who the whole of the netherlands is governed by, so he is a big guy, said: in his book "The Spirit of the Laws" which became later one of the foundations of the US law says in that book: "Women are marriageable in hot climates at eight, nine, and ten years of age. thus, childhood and marriage almost always go together there. They are old at twenty: thus reason in women is never found with beauty there" you said that you are not a believer, if you are not a believer then you dont have objective morality this is what atheism is, because if you dont have someone who knows everything you cannot be certain therefor you dont have objective morality. why are you as a atheist depending on a 21st century social construction legalistic definition of adult, why? why are you superimposing your 21st century thought and basically the whole history which defined being adult as someone has attained puberty, why? (and by the way aisha had hit puberty i can give the evidences) jeremy rifkin wrote in his book the emphatic civilization that before the 19th century adulthood was defined by attaining the age of puberty. in the book Human Development, it is said that women attain puberty at the age of 10 on avergae, and from aishas on words, and from sahih bukhari it is said that aisha had already hit puberty. we are not looking a a snapshot of history we are looking at the whole human time, child brides wasnt something new, but why are you trying to superimpose your subjective 21st century view on the whole history, romans and greeks married girls at 12 are you going to cuss them out now too? now this was 1400 years ago, wrap your head around that, 1400 years, and after 1400 years you are trying to superimpose your idead on them, really? if you really want to do this, ok the whole of america in the 1880 was pedophilic for their age 10 consent / marriage law. and in delaware where it was 7, literally all of the arabs were pedophiles in the 7th century, the romans and the greekd were pedophiles, everyone who read the biography from the muhammad from th 7th century to the 20th century are all pedos because the first time this insult was given was in 1905. from an objective philosphical perspective: montesqiue said: in his book "The Spirit of the Laws" which became later one of the foundations of the US law says in that book: "Women are marriageable in hot climates at eight, nine, and ten years of age. thus, childhood and marriage almost always go together there. They are old at twenty: thus reason in women is never found with beauty there" aisha hit puberty so biologically she was an adult there was no harm she was going to be married off anyway we believe god arranged this marriage for she was the daughter of the best friend of muhammad who then would get a high place in islam for all times, AND also aisha has done so much for the religion like narrating ahadith, and stories, and what his habits were etc. SO, what was wrong about it? just saying she was young doesnt mean anything, isaac married a 3-10 rebekah, david married a 12 year old abishag. saying she is young is not a new thing, we know this, but what was wrong with him marrying a young girl? what? you are superimposing your legalistic definition of pedophelia on all societies before 21sr century, gandhi was 13 when he married, the word pedophleoia being pu in the dictionary is a recent thing from 20th century thought, so why are you superimposing your laws from 1300 , one thousand threehundred years later and saying what someone ditd back then is bad, really mate? nobody thought it was bad then or for 1300 years till the first criticism in 1905, really? you base your objections on 1300 year later thought, its just ridiculous to me.





Offline H.

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Re: Christian claimed this.
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2017, 05:52:24 PM »
With regards to marrying people this day and age,

with regards to marrying young people now, this day and age is much more different than back then. Are you really going to compare this society with its technologies, and its taboos, and its thoughts and social conditioning, to a desert 1 thousand and 400 years ago, are you joking. Muhammad was our best example so by following him what we do is this: we marry girls which have hit puberty like Muhammad marriages were always with pubescent girls proof aisha hit puberty: sahih al bukhari 476: (the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty. also outside proof: “Narrated Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) “I do not remember (A’QAL) my parents believing in any religion other than the Religion (of Islam), and our being visited by Allah’s Messenger in the morning and in the evening. One day, while we were sitting in the house of Abu Bakr (my father) at noon, someone said, ‘This is Allah’s Messenger coming at an hour at which he never used to visit us.’ Abu Bakr said, ‘There must be something very urgent that has brought him at this hour.’ The Prophet said, ‘I have been allowed to go out (of Mecca) to migrate.'” (Sahih al-Bukhari volume 8, Book 73, Hadith 102, https://sunnah.com/bukhari/78/107 ) In the two narrations we have read we see that Aisha had seen her parents follow Islam since she ‘attained the age of puberty’ and in the second report she was mentally mature. She goes on to say that a day did not pass, but that the Prophet Muhammad visited her (Aisha) and her parents. The Hadith reports presented shows that Aisha had reached puberty and had mentally matured to discern things while she still living with her parents, before the marriage was consummated to Prophet Muhammed (p). Some critics have cast doubt on the Hadith where it mentions that Aisha hit “puberty” and claim that the translation that was made by the renowned scholar Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan is unreliable. As such we looked at Arabic-English Dictionaries on the word a’qal. The late professor Hans Wehr (1909 – 1981) who studied at the University of Munster published a book, “A Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic”. He comments on the word “A’qal”: “… a’qal more reasonable; brighter, smarter, more intelligent | … a’qal al’umr the most reasonable time of life, the years of reason and MATURITY.” (Hans Wehr A Dictionary of Modern written Arabic [Edited by John Milton – Spoken Language Services, Inc. 1976], page 737) Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan’s rendering of “puberty” in the first report is line with Professor Hans Wehr’s understanding of the Arabic language. The narrations presented prove that Aisha had already hit puberty before the consummation of the marriage taken place. Additionally, we have another narration where science attests that Aisha had hit puberty before the marriage was consummated. The following report states: Narrated Aisha: The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. THEN I GOT ILL AND MY HAIR FELL DOWN. LATER ON MY HAIR GREW (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Sahih al-Bukhari volume 5, Book 58, Hadith 234) The above narration is also reported in Sunan Ibn Majah: “Aishah said: “The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six years old. Then we came to Al-Madinah and settled among Banu Harith bin Khazraj. I BECAME ILL AND MY HAIR FELL OUT, THEN IT GREW BACK AND BECAME ABUNDANT. My mother Umm Ruman came to me while I was on an Urjuhah with some of my friends, and called for me. I went to her, and I did not know what she wanted. She took me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house, and I was panting. When I got my breath back, she took some water and wiped my face and head, and led me into the house. There were some woman of the Ansar inside the house, and they said: ‘With blessings and good fortune (from Allah).’ (My mother) handed me over to them and they tidied me up. And suddenly I saw the Messenger of Allah in the morning. And she handed me over to him and I was at that time, nine years old.” (Sahih) Sunan Ibn Majah volume 3, Book 9, Hadith 1876., Sahih Darussalam, http://www.sunnah.com/ibnmajah/9 ) It’s important to pay close attention to the above two narrations. Some may wonder, what is important about the part in the narration that is capitalized in bold, where it says, “Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew” This part of the Hadith shows explicitly from the point of science that Aisha hit puberty before the marriage was consummated with the Prophet (p). Hair loss is common among women. Hair loss happens when a girl goes through changes with her body i.e, hitting puberty. Shannon Harrison, Melissa Piliang and Wilma explain why, when hair disorders occur: “DEFINITION Alopecia is the general term for hair loss. Hair loss can occur from the scalp and any hair-bearing part of the body. Hair has great social and cultural importance, and patients with hair loss experience anxiety and concern….. PREVALENCE ….The most common form of hair loss is androgenetic alopecia (pattern hair loss), which increases with age; at least 80% of white men show some degree of thinning by the age of 70 year. Androgenetic alopecia OCCURS WITH THE ONSET OF PUBERTY and in males is dependent on circulating androgens. FEMALE PATTERN HAIR LOSS (female androgenetic alopecia) ALSO STARTS AFTER PUBERTY…” (Current Clinical Medicine: Expert Consult [Second edition – Elsevier Inc, 2010], by Shannon Harrison, Melissa Piliang, & Wilma Bergfeld, page 289 – 290) Dr. Lisa Akbari: “Studies show that hair loss affects approximately one third of all women. Although hair loss is most commonly seen after menopause, it can begin AS EARLY AS PUBERTY.” (Every Woman’s Guide to Beautiful Hair at Any Age: Learn What Can Be Done to keep a beautiful head of hair for a lifetime [SourceBooks, Inc – Naperville, Illinois, 2007] by Lisa Akbari page 70 -71) Scholars Gisela Torres and Stephen K. Tyring: “Androgenic alopecia may develop in a WOMAN at any time AFTER THE ONSET OF PUBERTY, although it most often occurs during the perimenopausal period or at times of hormonal change. Primary Care for Women [Second edition – Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, 2004] by Gisela Torres and Stephen K. Tyring, page 838) The following facts we can gather from this evidence: (1) Aisha got ill and a lot of her hair started falling (hitting puberty). (2) After a while (months or year(s)) her hair grew again. (3) Aisha states that she was 9 years old when the marriage was consummated and this is when she started living with Prophet Mohammed (p) as the report states: “(My mother) handed me over to them and they tidied me up. And suddenly I saw the Messenger of Allah in the morning. And she handed me over to him and I was at that time, nine years old.”

also quranic proof you should marry girld who hit puberty qurasn 4:6, Arabic: وَابْتَلُوا الْيَتَامَىٰ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا بَلَغُوا النِّكَاحَ فَإِنْ آنَسْتُم مِّنْهُمْ رُشْدًا فَادْفَعُوا إِلَيْهِمْ أَمْوَالَهُمْ وَلَا تَأْكُلُوهَا إِسْرَافًا وَبِدَارًا أَن يَكْبَرُوا وَمَن كَانَ غَنِيًّا فَلْيَسْتَعْفِفْ وَمَن كَانَ فَقِيرًا فَلْيَأْكُلْ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ فَإِذَا دَفَعْتُمْ إِلَيْهِمْ أَمْوَالَهُمْ فَأَشْهِدُوا عَلَيْهِمْ وَكَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ حَسِيبًا Transliteration: Waibtaloo alyatama hatta itha balaghoo alnnikaha fa-in anastum minhum rushdan faidfaAAoo ilayhim amwalahum wala ta/kulooha israfan wabidaran an yakbaroo waman kana ghaniyyan falyastaAAfif waman kana faqeeran falya/kul bialmaAAroofi fa-itha dafaAAtum ilayhim amwalahum faashhidoo AAalayhim wakafa biAllahi haseeban Translation: And test the orphans until they attain puberty; then if you find in them maturity of intellect, make over to them their property, and do not consume it extravagantly and hastily, lest they attain to full age; and whoever is rich, let him abstain altogether, and whoever is poor, let him eat reasonably; then when you make over to them their property, call witnesses in their presence; and Allah is enough as a Reckoner. – Quran 4:6 article: https://discover-the-truth.com/2014/11/21/minimum-age-for-marriage-in-the-quran/ so by following muhammad saws we marry pubescent girls, who have reached the age of intellect the age of intellect/ age ready for marriage this day and age is much different than it was in the past brona or bronagh says that it has to do with the period of play, the more time they play the farther the age of marriage is, now that we live in the age of technologies and games that come out every other day it would be very logical that children reach a higher age for marriage as they are consumed with doing that rather than doing things like being independent, working, etc. cus you got xboxes everywhere instead of like in the past they worked and cleaned and cooked and were independent, so therefor logically the age for marriage would be higher next, by following Muhammad saws as our role model what we do is like him we marry girls which is acceptable by our culture, hit puberty, doesnt cause harm and has reached the age of intellect/marriage muhammad married aisha which was accepted by the culture, she was hit puberty, she reached the agem of intellect and didnt cause harm therefor we would not marry such young girls today, they reach the age for marriage later therefor we shouldnt marry them, according to quran 4:6, this day and age marrying young girls may cause harm because of the pshycological issue and the taboo, and it is not accepted by culture, that is why we wouldnt marry them today.

Offline H.

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Re: Christian claimed this.
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2017, 06:10:06 PM »
For my last and final comment on amuslimdude saying she was 16 and 19, yani we need to be honest, and muhammad saws said:

Whoever tells lies about me deliberately, let him take his place in Hell.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1229.

This very hadith about entering helll for lying about rasulallah saws is very very mutawatir, some say 42 sahabi have naratted it, examples: ibn majah book 1 hadith 32, abu dawud 3651, and bukhari book 3 hadith 108, hadith 109, hadith 110, just see; http://ahadith.co.uk/searchresults.php?q=seat+in+hell-fire

So we have to be completely honest abiut this, the ahadih about her age are mawqoof, meaning that sahaba narrated it.

And for the hisham ibn urwa point i will come to it, but without goinng there, Aisha herself narrated that she was married at 6 and consummated at 9

Sunan nisai 3255,
Bukhari 5134
Bukhari 5133,
Abu dawud 2121,
Muslim 1422b
Muslim 1422d
Ibn majah,
English reference    : Vol. 3, Book 9, Hadith 1876
Arabic reference    : Book 9, Hadith 1950

Bukhari 3894,
Muslim 1422a


I can get more, but all of the above are narrated from aisha berself, aisha ra also said:

When the girl reaches nine years of age, she is a woman. (Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Kitab: al-Nikah, Bab: Maa Jaa'a fee Ikraah Al Yateemah 'alaa al tazweej, Hadith no. 1027,

So now to disregard 9 sahih mutawatir hadith from the wife herself is honestly a little ridiculous if you think about it.

Hishams father narrated in bukhari 3896,
Urwa narrated 5158

Who actually is hisham bin urwa, he is the nephew of aisha ra, and he is the son of urwa
Urwa himself is a big guy in hadith, big, so aisha herself narrates it in 9 sahih reports, the son of a big hadith guy, and the big hadith guy himself narrate it. And all of these reports are completely sahihs coming from the complete sahihayn and sittta.

Also if you really dont trust him, sahih muslim 3311 is without hiam bin urwa from aisha herself

I can keep going but all of these fringe theories have already been answered by both muslims and non muslims,

Here muslim paper answering claims that aisha was not 9, https://islamistruth.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/the-age-of-aishah_s-marriage-between-historians-and-hadith-scholars.pdf

Offline H.

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Re: Christian claimed this.
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2017, 06:19:18 PM »
Muslimforever, what you do know is you send him the biblical child brides

i will post now links to articles proving conclusively child brides in the bible, like david and abishag, and isaac and rebekah and numbers 31:17-18 etc.

isaac married a 3–10 year old rebekah, proof: https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/10/26/the-age-of-rebecca-when-she-married-isaac-biblical-perceptive/ and https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/11/17/what-was-rebeccas-age-when-given-away-in-marriage-naar/ and https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/11/14/was-rebekah-3-10-years-old-when-married-off-to-isaac/ and https://discover-the-truth.com/2015/01/14/bible-isaacs-marriage-to-10-year-old-rebecca/

moses and his men, https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/08/07/a-detailed-historical-examination-of-numbers-3118/ and https://discover-the-truth.com/2015/10/29/child-marriage-in-the-bible/ and https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/11/14/bible-does-numbers-3118-sanction-pre-pubescent-marriages-child-marriage-2/

 dina age married to Shechem at age 7, https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/08/02/bible-how-old-was-dinah-when-she-was-married-to-shechem/ and https://discover-the-truth.com/2017/01/25/revisiting-dinah-and-shechems-marriage/

mary and joseph: https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/09/30/marriage-of-mary-to-joseph-the-carpenter/

david marriage to a 12 year old: https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/09/17/king-davids-marriage-to-12-year-old-abishag-bible/ https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/09/25/bible-evidence-that-david-married-12-year-old-abishag/ https://discover-the-truth.com/2016/09/21/exploring-1-kings-14-knew-her-not-king-davids-12-year-old-bride/ alsosome more on child marriages those times: https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/09/14/bible-child-marriage-in-ancient-israelite-times-paedophilia/

Offline Albarra

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Re: Christian claimed this.
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2017, 10:15:02 AM »
Hani,

Muslimdude is honest, but you still don't get it.


I know that one authentic hadith where Moses (phub) hit an angel to death, which is considered a blasphemy.

So, does this mean Moses is satanic?







Offline muslimforever2012

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Re: Christian claimed this.
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2017, 10:42:35 AM »
Assalamu alaikum.

Thanks everyone for the answers. Can anyone from you please join me in the Faithfreedom forums? I debated with them and I still am but tomorrow I'll be busy for a long time.

Offline AMuslimDude213

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Re: Christian claimed this.
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2017, 11:32:19 AM »
I would but the issue is I live in UAE where sites such as FaithFreedom are blocked.

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Christian claimed this.
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2017, 12:31:31 PM »
Assalamu alaikum.

Thanks everyone for the answers. Can anyone from you please join me in the Faithfreedom forums? I debated with them and I still am but tomorrow I'll be busy for a long time.

Wa Alaikum As'salam dear brother,

Just provide links.  Do not waste your breath debating these doomed-to-Hell losers.  Let the Muslims' articles do the talking.  This way, you promote Muslim links.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

 

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