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Offline Khan

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O Christ worshiper...
« on: July 29, 2015, 05:16:49 AM »

Salam Alykum Warahmatullah

I had many questions about christianity including the cross, because i thought how come  a device used for torturing and killing a God became a symbol of reverence?

O Christ worshiper is a very eloquent yet very logical poem by the medieval Islamic scholar Ibn Qayyim Al Jawziyya. It asks many questions  about the very foundations of Christianity. The poem shows how self contradicting christianity is and the paradox around which its core beliefs exist.

To listen to the audio of the poem click the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xftYo8Ng61Y




اعباد المسيح لنا سؤال....نريد جوابه ممن و عاه
O Christ-worshippers! We want an answer to our question
[from your wise ones],

إذا مات الإله بصنع قوم....أماتوه فما هذا الإله
If the Lord was murdered by some people's act,
what kind of god is this?

وهل أرضاه ما نالوه منه....فبشراهم إذا نلوا رضاه
We wonder! Was He pleased by what they did to Him?
If yes, blessed be they, they achieved His pleasure,

وإن الذي فعلوه فيه....فقؤتهم إذا أوهت قواه
But if He was discontented,
this means their power had subjugated Him!

وهل بقي الوجود بلا إله....سميع يستجيب لمن دعاه
Was the whole entity left without a Sustainer,
so who answered the prayers?

وهل خلت الطباق السبع لما....ثوى تحت التراب وقد علاه
Were the heavens vacated,
when He laid under the ground somewhere?

وهل خلت العوالم من إله....يدبر ها وقد سمرت يداه
Were all the worlds left without a God,
to manage while His hands were nailed?

وكيف تخلت الأملاك عنه....بنصرهم وقد سمعوا بكاه
Why did not the angels help Him,
when they heard him while he wailed?

وكيف أطاقت الخشبات حمل الإله....الحق شد على قفاه
How could the rods stand to bear the True Lord
when He was fastened,

وكيف دنا الحديد إليه حتى....يخالطه ويلحقه أذاه
How could the irons reached Him and [had] His body pinned?

وكيف تمكنت أيدي عداه....وطالت حيث قد صفعوا قفاه
How could His enemies' hands reach Him and slap His rear,

وهل عاد المسيح إلى حياة....أم المحيي له ربٌ سواه
And was Christ revived by himself, or was the Reviver another god?

ويا عجبا لقبر ضم رباً....وأغجب منه بطن قد حواه
What a sight it was, a grave that enclosed a god,
Stranger still is the belly that confined Him!

أقام هناك تسعا من شهور....لدى الظلمات من حيض غذاه
He stayed there for nine months in utter darkness, fed by blood!

وشق الفرج مولودا صغيرا....ضعيفا فاتحا للثدى فاه
Then he got out of the womb as a small baby,
Weak and gasping to be breast-fed!

ويأكل ثم يشرب ثم ياتي....بلازم ذاك هل هذا إله
He ate and drank, and did what that naturally resulted,
Is this [what you call] a god?

تعالى الله عن إفك النصارى....سيسأل كلهم عما افتراه
High Exalted be Allah above the lies of Christians,
All of them will be held accountable for their libels!

أعباد الصليب لأي معنى....يعظم او يقبَه رماه
O Cross-worshipers! For what reason is this exalted
and blame [is cast upon those] who reject it?

وهل تقضى العقول بغير كسر....وإحراق له ولمن بغاه
Is it not logical to break and burn it,
along with the one who innovated it?

إذا ركب الإله عليه كرها....وقد شدت لتسمير يداه
Since the Lord was crucified on it,
and his hands were fastened to it?

فذاك المركب الملعون حقا....فدسه لا تبسه إذا تراه
That is really a cursed cross to carry,
So discard it, do not kiss it!

يهان عليه رب الخلق طرًا....وتعبده فإنك من عداه
The Lord was abused on it, and you adore it?
So [it is clear that] you are one of His enemies!

فإن عظمته من أخل أن قد....حوى رب العباد وقد علاه
If you extol it because it carried the Lord of the Worlds,

وقد فقد الصليب فإن رأينا....له شكلا تذكرنا سناه
Why don't you prostrate yourself and worship graves,

فهلا للقبور سجدت طرًا....لضم القبر ربَك في حشاه
Since the grave contained your god in it?

فيا عبد المسيح فق فهذا....بدايته وهذا منتهاه
So Christ-worshiper, open your eyes,
This is the Beginning and this is the End.
[/b]

Salam wa rahmatullah
[/font][/size]
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 03:00:41 AM by Khan »

Offline submit

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Re: O Christ worshiper...
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2015, 11:57:21 AM »
Quote
إذا مات الإله بصنع قوم....أماتوه فما هذا الإله
If the Lord was murdered by some people's act,
what kind of god is this?
It was a suicidal act done by the two gods that manifested into human form and spirit/bird form. Together they appear on earth to do a suicidal act so that they can show Love and Grace to human. However, those that do not accept the human god's suicidal act will not be saved and send to Hell.

Quote
وهل أرضاه ما نالوه منه....فبشراهم إذا نلوا رضاه
We wonder! Was He pleased by what they did to Him?
If yes, blessed be they, they achieved His pleasure,
وإن الذي فعلوه فيه....فقؤتهم إذا أوهت قواه
But if He was discontented,
this means their power had subjugated Him!
وهل بقي الوجود بلا إله....سميع يستجيب لمن دعاه
Was the whole entity left without a Sustainer,
so who answered the prayers?

Christ worshiper believe that in human form, the human god will be like mere human thus he will rely to Father in heaven. Thats why human god said to Father, Why have You forsaken (altho this dialogue was just a well planned act by the human god). The purpose of him doing suicide was to liberate sins , to show Love. Despite all that Love, during the 2nd coming during the iron rod ruling, Christ worshiper said those that were not saved by their human-god due to them opposing his words will be sent to Hell imprisoned with Satan.

Quote
وهل خلت الطباق السبع لما....ثوى تحت التراب وقد علاه
Were the heavens vacated,
when He laid under the ground somewhere?
وهل خلت العوالم من إله....يدبر ها وقد سمرت يداه
Were all the worlds left without a God,
to manage while His hands were nailed?

The Father is still up there for He is the superior one. But in the Greek book, human god shall be regarded as equal to Father's status.

Quote
وكيف تخلت الأملاك عنه....بنصرهم وقد سمعوا بكاه
Why did not the angels help Him,
when they heard him while he wailed?
وكيف أطاقت الخشبات حمل الإله....الحق شد على قفاه
How could the rods stand to bear the True Lord
when He was fastened,
وكيف دنا الحديد إليه حتى....يخالطه ويلحقه أذاه
How could the irons reached Him and [had] His body pinned?
وكيف تمكنت أيدي عداه....وطالت حيث قد صفعوا قفاه
How could His enemies' hands reach Him and slap His rear,
وهل عاد المسيح إلى حياة....أم المحيي له ربٌ سواه
And was Christ revived by himself, or was the Reviver another god?

In human form, the human god will be limited in ability despite having aid from Holy Spirit. Indeed Father is the superior god. However, in the Greek book, human god and Spirit shall be regarded as equal to Father's status in aspect of worship.

Quote
ويا عجبا لقبر ضم رباً....وأغجب منه بطن قد حواه
What a sight it was, a grave that enclosed a god,
Stranger still is the belly that confined Him!
أقام هناك تسعا من شهور....لدى الظلمات من حيض غذاه
He stayed there for nine months in utter darkness, fed by blood!
وشق الفرج مولودا صغيرا....ضعيفا فاتحا للثدى فاه
Then he got out of the womb as a small baby,
Weak and gasping to be breast-fed!
ويأكل ثم يشرب ثم ياتي....بلازم ذاك هل هذا إله
He ate and drank, and did what that naturally resulted,
Is this [what you call] a god?

Christ worshiper accept the concept of manifestation of god into human appearance on earth. For they like their human god performed as suicidal act to liberate sins. This is a god that shows Love.
However, they also believe that god of Love will return to rule with an 'iron rod'. Human god will form an empire with Christ worshiper from Israel to rule the world. Those that oppose the word of human god will be sent to Hell imprisoned with Satan.

Quote
تعالى الله عن إفك النصارى....سيسأل كلهم عما افتراه
High Exalted be Allah above the lies of Christians,
All of them will be held accountable for their libels!
أعباد الصليب لأي معنى....يعظم او يقبَه رماه
O Cross-worshipers! For what reason is this exalted
and blame [is cast upon those] who reject it?
وهل تقضى العقول بغير كسر....وإحراق له ولمن بغاه
Is it not logical to break and burn it,
along with the one who innovated it?
إذا ركب الإله عليه كرها....وقد شدت لتسمير يداه
Since the Lord was crucified on it,
and his hands were fastened to it?
فذاك المركب الملعون حقا....فدسه لا تبسه إذا تراه
That is really a cursed cross to carry,
So discard it, do not kiss it!
يهان عليه رب الخلق طرًا....وتعبده فإنك من عداه
The Lord was abused on it, and you adore it?
So [it is clear that] you are one of His enemies!
فإن عظمته من أخل أن قد....حوى رب العباد وقد علاه
If you extol it because it carried the Lord of the Worlds,
وقد فقد الصليب فإن رأينا....له شكلا تذكرنا سناه
Why don't you prostrate yourself and worship graves,
فهلا للقبور سجدت طرًا....لضم القبر ربَك في حشاه
Since the grave contained your god in it?
فيا عبد المسيح فق فهذا....بدايته وهذا منتهاه
So Christ-worshiper, open your eyes,
This is the Beginning and this is the End.
[/center][/b]

The cross is a symbol of Love from a god that liberated sins by doing a suicide. However the Love will not last long. Those that the human god cannot save, will be sent to hell during the second coming as Christ worshiper had believed based on the Greek books. 

~~~
Side note:
There is also another sect among the Christ worshipers that one god referred by Israelites is a one form of super god made of combination of Father, Son , Spirit that appears at different places at the same time. However this one god that appears in three forms at the same time is not supported in Greek books. Its more to 3 distinct gods that exist since the beginning. And all three have different functions but equal in status of worship.

Offline Khan

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Re: O Christ worshiper...
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2015, 02:13:09 PM »
Quote
إذا مات الإله بصنع قوم....أماتوه فما هذا الإله
If the Lord was murdered by some people's act,
what kind of god is this?

It was a suicidal act done by the two gods that manifested into human form and spirit/bird form. Together they appear on earth to do a suicidal act so that they can show Love and Grace to human. However, those that do not accept the human god's suicidal act will not be saved and send to Hell.


So technically The Gods committed suicide together but the suicide they committed involved other people torturing and then killing one of them, sounds more of an homicide than suicide.

Quote
وهل أرضاه ما نالوه منه....فبشراهم إذا نلوا رضاه
We wonder! Was He pleased by what they did to Him?
If yes, blessed be they, they achieved His pleasure,
وإن الذي فعلوه فيه....فقؤتهم إذا أوهت قواه
But if He was discontented,
this means their power had subjugated Him!
وهل بقي الوجود بلا إله....سميع يستجيب لمن دعاه
Was the whole entity left without a Sustainer,
so who answered the prayers?

Christ worshiper believe that in human form, the human god will be like mere human thus he will rely to Father in heaven. Thats why human god said to Father, Why have You forsaken (altho this dialogue was just a well planned act by the human god). The purpose of him doing suicide was to liberate sins , to show Love. Despite all that Love, during the 2nd coming during the iron rod ruling, Christ worshiper said those that were not saved by their human-god due to them opposing his words will be sent to Hell imprisoned with Satan.

So if 1 or 2 of the 3 gods died is it really a suicide or even a sacrifice for that matter?  if he is only a mere human when he is human why does his sacrifice matter? Why would a part of God call out to himself when he knew what was supposed to happen? why not just say that I am God you will crucify me but i will return after 3 days? That would've had more impact.
So technically an entity innocent of sins was condemned to death because of the sins of others. Is this the type of lesson that God wants to give to humanity? that its ok to kill someone as long as you're saved from condemnation because of it?
And the question remains was it good or bad that the jews crucified Jesus Pbuh? because in the end that is what lead to liberation from sins.


Quote
وهل خلت الطباق السبع لما....ثوى تحت التراب وقد علاه
Were the heavens vacated,
when He laid under the ground somewhere?
وهل خلت العوالم من إله....يدبر ها وقد سمرت يداه
Were all the worlds left without a God,
to manage while His hands were nailed?

The Father is still up there for He is the superior one. But in the Greek book, human god shall be regarded as equal to Father's status.


Then its not really a sacrifice by definition if he was still up there.

 A crying, thirsty, bleeding human crying my lord my lord why have you forsaken me?( not: o why have i forsaken myself) & of-course this is before his mother breast fed him, clothed him,  and took care of his needs when he was unable to do so. So keeping this in mind, how is he equal to the superior God up there in status or otherwise?


Quote
وكيف تخلت الأملاك عنه....بنصرهم وقد سمعوا بكاه
Why did not the angels help Him,
when they heard him while he wailed?
وكيف أطاقت الخشبات حمل الإله....الحق شد على قفاه
How could the rods stand to bear the True Lord
when He was fastened,
وكيف دنا الحديد إليه حتى....يخالطه ويلحقه أذاه
How could the irons reached Him and [had] His body pinned?
وكيف تمكنت أيدي عداه....وطالت حيث قد صفعوا قفاه
How could His enemies' hands reach Him and slap His rear,
وهل عاد المسيح إلى حياة....أم المحيي له ربٌ سواه
And was Christ revived by himself, or was the Reviver another god?

In human form, the human god will be limited in ability despite having aid from Holy Spirit. Indeed Father is the superior god. However, in the Greek book, human god and Spirit shall be regarded as equal to Father's status in aspect of worship.


So despite being a human god and having aid from the holy spirit (another form of god) and the third superior one watching from above, they were still unable to overcome their enemies? How are they equal again? in helplessness?

Quote
ويا عجبا لقبر ضم رباً....وأغجب منه بطن قد حواه
What a sight it was, a grave that enclosed a god,
Stranger still is the belly that confined Him!
أقام هناك تسعا من شهور....لدى الظلمات من حيض غذاه
He stayed there for nine months in utter darkness, fed by blood!
وشق الفرج مولودا صغيرا....ضعيفا فاتحا للثدى فاه
Then he got out of the womb as a small baby,
Weak and gasping to be breast-fed!
ويأكل ثم يشرب ثم ياتي....بلازم ذاك هل هذا إله
He ate and drank, and did what that naturally resulted,
Is this [what you call] a god?

Christ worshiper accept the concept of manifestation of god into human appearance on earth. For they like their human god performed as suicidal act to liberate sins. This is a god that shows Love.
However, they also believe that god of Love will return to rule with an 'iron rod'. Human god will form an empire with Christ worshiper from Israel to rule the world. Those that oppose the word of human god will be sent to Hell imprisoned with Satan.

What is a human god? It is something like a Devil angel or Pious sinner or frozen fire. Its an oxymoron. If he was human then how could he be god if he was god how could he be human? Would you believe in the existence of a devil angel? So to show love God killed the "human god" although he did nothing wrong and the people who actually killed, raped or robbed were exonerated just by accepting this sacrifice. What sort of justice is that? where the victims and the criminal have no distinction as long as the criminal accepts this sacrifice. But i guess sinning is important otherwise the sacrifice would be for nothing.

Quote
تعالى الله عن إفك النصارى....سيسأل كلهم عما افتراه
High Exalted be Allah above the lies of Christians,
All of them will be held accountable for their libels!
أعباد الصليب لأي معنى....يعظم او يقبَه رماه
O Cross-worshipers! For what reason is this exalted
and blame [is cast upon those] who reject it?
وهل تقضى العقول بغير كسر....وإحراق له ولمن بغاه
Is it not logical to break and burn it,
along with the one who innovated it?
إذا ركب الإله عليه كرها....وقد شدت لتسمير يداه
Since the Lord was crucified on it,
and his hands were fastened to it?
فذاك المركب الملعون حقا....فدسه لا تبسه إذا تراه
That is really a cursed cross to carry,
So discard it, do not kiss it!
يهان عليه رب الخلق طرًا....وتعبده فإنك من عداه
The Lord was abused on it, and you adore it?
So [it is clear that] you are one of His enemies!
فإن عظمته من أخل أن قد....حوى رب العباد وقد علاه
If you extol it because it carried the Lord of the Worlds,
وقد فقد الصليب فإن رأينا....له شكلا تذكرنا سناه
Why don't you prostrate yourself and worship graves,
فهلا للقبور سجدت طرًا....لضم القبر ربَك في حشاه
Since the grave contained your god in it?
فيا عبد المسيح فق فهذا....بدايته وهذا منتهاه
So Christ-worshiper, open your eyes,
This is the Beginning and this is the End.
[/center][/b]

The cross is a symbol of Love from a god that liberated sins by doing a suicide. However the Love will not last long. Those that the human god cannot save, will be sent to hell during the second coming as Christ worshiper had believed based on the Greek books.
 

Did Jesus revere the cross?
A device used to torture and kill a god is a symbol of love? Then by that logic why not revere the people who tortured and killed Jesus? After all they were the ones who crucified him. Why not call Judas a saint?

« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 05:37:19 PM by Khan »

Offline Tahmeed

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Re: O Christ worshiper...
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2015, 06:34:03 AM »
Assalamu alaikum brother Khan and JazakaAllahu khair for the poem.

As for medieval Muslim apologetics, I am eager to read or to know about some books I recently found out about. from here http://islamqa.info/en/209007

Quote
Hence many scholars read these books for the purpose of debating with the Jews and Christians. Among the most famous of those who refuted the Jews and Christians by quoting their own books to them were: Ibn Taymiyah, in his book al-Jawaab as-Saheeh liman baddala Deen al-Maseeh (The Correct Response to those who altered the Religion of the Messiah); Ibn al-Qayyim in his book  Hidaayat al-Hayaara fi Ajwibat al-Yahood wa’n-Nasaara (Guiding to the Confused in Refuting the Jews and Christians); Ibn Hazm in his book al-Fasl fi’l-Milal wa’l-Ahwa’ wa’n-Nahl (Discussion of the Views of Different Religions, Groups and Sects); al-Qurtubi in his book al-I‘laam bima fi Deen an-Nasaara min al-Fasaad wa’l-Awhaam (Highlighting what the Religion of the Christians contains of Corruption and Myths); and many others.

It also states Ibn Qayyim, but I am specially interested in Ibn Taimiyyah's book "Al-Jawaab as-Saheeh liman baddala Deen al-Maseeh (The Correct Response to those who altered the Religion of the Messiah)". Because you know, he was a brilliant scholar and I want to know what he said in the book! Have you read it?

Also, the link I gave above is very important for those who are studying the bible and debating infidels.

Allah Hafiz

Offline Khan

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Re: O Christ worshiper...
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2015, 11:49:28 AM »
Assalamu alaikum brother Khan and JazakaAllahu khair for the poem.

As for medieval Muslim apologetics, I am eager to read or to know about some books I recently found out about. from here http://islamqa.info/en/209007

Quote
Hence many scholars read these books for the purpose of debating with the Jews and Christians. Among the most famous of those who refuted the Jews and Christians by quoting their own books to them were: Ibn Taymiyah, in his book al-Jawaab as-Saheeh liman baddala Deen al-Maseeh (The Correct Response to those who altered the Religion of the Messiah); Ibn al-Qayyim in his book  Hidaayat al-Hayaara fi Ajwibat al-Yahood wa’n-Nasaara (Guiding to the Confused in Refuting the Jews and Christians); Ibn Hazm in his book al-Fasl fi’l-Milal wa’l-Ahwa’ wa’n-Nahl (Discussion of the Views of Different Religions, Groups and Sects); al-Qurtubi in his book al-I‘laam bima fi Deen an-Nasaara min al-Fasaad wa’l-Awhaam (Highlighting what the Religion of the Christians contains of Corruption and Myths); and many others.

It also states Ibn Qayyim, but I am specially interested in Ibn Taimiyyah's book "Al-Jawaab as-Saheeh liman baddala Deen al-Maseeh (The Correct Response to those who altered the Religion of the Messiah)". Because you know, he was a brilliant scholar and I want to know what he said in the book! Have you read it?

Also, the link I gave above is very important for those who are studying the bible and debating infidels.

Allah Hafiz

Wa Alykum Salam wa Rahmatullah,

No brother Tamheed i did not yet read it but i will as soon as i get the opportunity InshaAllah.


Salamat

 

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