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Messages - mclinkin94

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Wa Alaikum As'salam akhi Mclinkin94,

You're honestly beginning to sound like an infidel pretending to be Muslim.  We get those rotten infidels every once in a while.  I just hope you're no one of them. 

How so? All I have done is present Quranic evidence, evidence you have absolutely no response for. I do feel that it is impossible to refute the Quranic claims if you believe in the Quran--Allah couldn't have been more clear.

In fact, if we play that game and judge who is Muslim purely based on Allah's words--it would be clear that sunnis are not worthy of the title "muslim"

1-  You're speaking like the atheists when they say "may be there is no GOD", or "we don't know...".  Your argument AT BEST is "may be they're false", or "maybe this practice is fabricated by some group of sheikhs....".

I don't argue like that. I don't say that hadiths may be fabricated and the Quran may be the only source of law.

Hadiths are fabricated and the Quran is the ONLY source of law as it was explicitly stated. Even if hadiths contain some truth in them, it doesn't matter as all the details we need to know are in the Quran.

  I don't know then how the Islam that we follow had been perfected by Allah Almighty according to the Glorious Quran:

[005:003]  Forbidden to you is the flesh of an animal which dies of itself, and blood and the flesh of swine; and that on which is invoked the name of any other than ALLAH; and that which has been strangled; and that which has been beaten to death; and that which has been killed by a fall and that which has been gored to death; and that of which a wild animal has eaten, except that which you have properly slaughtered; and that which has been slaughtered at an altar as an offering to idols. And forbidden is also this that you seek to know your lot by the divining arrows. That is an act of disobedience. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of harming your religion. So fear them not, but fear ME. This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed MY favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion. But whoso is forced by hunger, without being wilfully inclined to sin, then, surely, ALLAH is Most Forgiving, and is Merciful.

Allah DID perfect Islam and he made it clear that the Quran is the only source of law. Sunni's and shia's are not Muslims. They are disbelievers. They are not following Allah's perfected religion which states that the Quran is the only source of law.

Quran 45:6-8 These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after Allah and His verses will they believe? Woe to every sinful liar. Who hears the verses of Allah recited to him, then persists arrogantly as if he had not heard them. So give him tidings of a painful punishment.

You just heard Allah's verse that you cannot believe in anything besides these (quranic) verses. You persist arrogantly as if you had not heard them, so I give you and all sunni/shia tidings of a painful punishment just as the Quran ordered me to. Is this really an unreasonable claim. All I have done is read the Quran to you...

Consider me as a messenger giving you Allah's wisdom. You have relentlessly resisted. Just imagine how the prophet Muhammad felt when he came with really good arguments and the meccans didn't follow because of arrogance.

It is important that you take these Quranic words seriously brother, for your own soul,
do not turn a blind eye to the words of God in the Quran.
Why is it so difficult to believe all the words of God which I showed you?
Do you want to be sorry on Judgement day and say I wish I did not let my ego blind me from the truth?
I am here to help you as a brother and a friend, but I cannot do so unless you decide to believe the Quran,

For GOD Almighty's Sake, if the inherited Sunnah is all wrong (our Prayer, Fasting, Pilgrimage, etc...) are all wrong, according to you, then how is this in harmony with the Quran??  And how is the Quran in harmony with common sense and logic then??  How could It claim that Islam had been PERFECTED and COMPLETED for us, when everything about It is just false, according to you??

But you are assuming that those who follow the inherited Sunnah are proper Muslims?

Remember what the Quran predicted?

[Quran 25:30] The Messengers will say, "Lord, my people had abandoned this Quran.

This is a prophesy that came true. People have abandoned the Quran and violated the direct commandment of not taking another source of law.

2-  For the millionth time told to you by Muslims, the Glorious Quran details everything as far as Salvation and Commands are concerned, and the Hadiths detail the DEEP DIVES of the practices.  Hajj is in the Holy Quran.  Salat is in the Holy Quran.  The Hadiths tell you how to do them.  If a Command in a Hadith isn't mentioned in the Glorious Quran at all, such as drinking with your right hand, or shaving your mustache, then this is all optional Sunnah.  Many Scholars agree with this.  However, it is best to do it if you could.  I personally do the Sunnah as much as I can.  But it is not compulsory.

No brother. No!

The Quran has all the details and made no exceptions, you are directly disbelieving in Allah's words!! Please reconsider your thought!

3-  Allah Almighty's Command above in my previous post wasn't just limited to spoils of wars, man!  The command is clearly a general one, even if it were mentioned in a specific situation.

Sure, but even so--the prophet Muhammad was instructed by Allah how to give out the spoils of war! That means Muhammad had no legislative power, all power was to Allah and Muhammad just executes his commands and we are commanded to follow him.

If this is not just limited to the spoils of war but is applicable to everything, then the same concept follows--Allah gives the command the the prophet in the Quran, and the prophet executes the commands and we must follow the prophet. This verse in no way validates the sunnah or another source of law besides the Quran. Muhammad has no legislative power, he executes Allah's command in the Quran and if we don't follow the prophet then we are not following the Quran nor Allah.

Now for the sake of keeping the Muslims' faith balanced, and not to spread any cultists' confusions and lies, and for the sake of the possibility of YOU being a non-Muslims, I would like to humbly ask you to cease at once all discussions regarding the Sunnah.  You can resume discussing the Scientific Miracles in the Glorious Quran and all other topics.  But the Quran and Sunnah is something that has gone on for a long time here, and quite frankly, it's becoming quite silly to continue this discussion and keep repeating ourselves over and over and over to you.  So please brother, do not discuss this again here.  I'll give you the last word on this thread to say and rebut what you wish.

You have my word. This is my last discussion of this topic on this forum unless permission is given to me (from you) specifically.

But I continue urge you to open your heart and mind to Allah and the Quran.

If you cannot defend the most simple of verses that the Quran is fully detailed and that we cannot believe in any verse besides it--then there is something wrong with your belief system.

I hope you may find guidance and become a true muslim.

This is getting far too ridiculous!  It's already been demonstrated to you countless times before that Muslims are clearly instructed to follow Prophet Muhammad also.  And this is from the very Glorious Quran Itself:

"What Allah gave as booty (Fai) to His Messenger (Muhammad SAW) from the people of the townships, - it is for Allah, His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), the kindred (of Messenger Muhammad SAW), the orphans, AlMasakin (the poor), and the wayfarer, in order that it may not become a fortune used by the rich among you. And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad SAW) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it), and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment.  (The Noble Quran, 59:7)"

Asalamu Alikum brother Osama,

Before I start, I just want to let you know that I do not mean to be rude or disrespectful on this forum especially on the month of Ramadan--I will try to just give arguments in support of my belief and then give and receive constructive criticism. By the way, Ramadan Mubarak! I wish you and your family well, may Allah hear your prayers.

Your interpretation of that verse cannot be true because you are elevating Muhammad to being a Law maker besides God. This is in sharp violation to many Quranic verses such as 6:114, 42:21 and 66:1. Moreover, you did not take into account the context:

1- These two verses (59:6-7) speak very clearly about the spoils of war and nothing else. The words "that which God gives as spoils from the defeated towns" confirm that the subject is the spoils of war.

2- More important the source of what is given to the people by the messenger "what the messenger asigns to you" is God and not the messenger. This is confirmed with the words "what God restored for His messenger". What this means is that whatever is given to the believers, and even though is given by the messenger, yet the source is still God. The spoils of war are given to the messenger in order that he may distribute them in accordance to God's rules.

3- We read that the messenger is told specifically how to distribute these spoils of war: "for the relatives, the orphans, the needy, and the traveling alien". Therefore the messenger has NO legislative power, Allah has all the power as he tells the messenger how to distribute these spoils of war.

4- Following these words, God says that the believers should accept what the messenger gives them (of the spoils) and refrain from what is not given to them. In other words, God is telling the believers to accept the way the messenger distributes these spoils of war without grumbling. Now the messenger distributes these spoils of war in the way Allah ordered him. So to disobey the messenger is to disobey Allah.

5- The words "so it would not remain monopolised by the strong among you" is further conclusive proof that God is not speaking about the hadith or sunna of the messenger but is speaking about material gains, i.e the spoils of war.

6- Please do not fall for the Sunni and Shia Guru and Imam action of taking that verse: "take what the messenger gives you" and quoted it in isolation in order to deceive. They will have their punishment with Allah.

This is where you get your apples and oranges all mixed up.  Even if the Hadith is false, this still wouldn't make the ritual itself false.  Whether one is a Muslim or not, one couldn't be that ridiculously off in his brain to believe that the INHERITED SUNNAH, which had been practiced by billions upon billions of Muslims throughout the ages, isn't original Islam!  You couldn't say for example that SURAT AL-FATIHA isn't obligatory to read in every Prayer, just because the Quran doesn't say so.

All it takes is a group of sheiks or Imams or religious gurus and a fabricated hadith to start a new Islamic practice. They can just say, "the prophet Muhammad said that you should..." and then everyone follows it and it gets inherited.

Let's say someone wrote a hadith about the stoning of the devil, and it has been followed ever since....that doesn't make it part of Islam.

Nevertheless, the point of hajj is to commemorate Allah, not satan.

You have to differentiate between the inherited Sunnah and some of the stupid false and blasphemous hadiths, such as Moses punched the Angel of death in the eye, which forced Allah Almighty to extend Moses' life, after Allah Almighty SUPPOSEDLY decided to take it and had sent the Angel of Death to take it.  Moses punched in the face both the Angel of Death and Allah Almighty's Will I suppose.

I'm so happy that we are on the same page that many hadiths are fabricated. But I take it a step further and say hadiths are not a part of Islam---they are culture. True Islam is derived from the teachings in the Quran not the cultural aspects of Islam.

I can't say that I agree about the inherited sunnah argument. Some people can be following fabricated hadiths in the past and then they get inherited into our modern islam.

If you can show me where in the Quran we are authorized to follow another source of law, that would completely destroy Quran only Islam and I will happily become a sunni Muslim again. the problem is if sunnis/shias cannot give one Quranic verse supporting their belief system--then how they honestly maintain their beliefs? They really can't, they must be intellectually dishonest.

The stoning of the devil is part of the Hajj, whether you like it or not.  This is Islam.  Don't try to modify it, akhi.  The Noble Verses that you mention about the Glorious Quran is Complete, yes, those are about your Salvation!  Not about how to dress, how to speak, how to eat, etc...  The Commands are there for being a good and pious Muslim, and one who doesn't harm others.  But the Hadiths detail everything.

I hope this makes sense for you now.

The hadiths cannot detail anything more brother! The Quran already has all the details, there are no more details to be given!

The Quran is clear that it has all the details! What is the sunni response to this?? Did Allah not really mean that the Quran is fully detailed? I don't see a way out of this.

[Quran 7:52] We have given them a scripture that is fully detailed, with knowledge, guidance, and mercy for the people who believe.

[Quran 10:37] This Quran could not possibly be authored by other than God. It confirms all previous messages, and provides a fully detailed scripture. It is infallible, for it comes from the Lord of the universe.

[Quran 12:111] In their history, there is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. This is not fabricated Hadith; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a beacon and mercy for those who believe.

If you were Allah and you wanted to say the Quran is fully detailed, how would you better word those verses? You can't they are absolutely clear, the Quran has details of everything.

He Replied
"Sin is not like a speeding ticket. The penalty for sin (any sin) is death. Your "speeding ticket" kind of sin lets me know that you have no concept of the depravity of men or the consequences of sin. God is not the police officer. God is the Judge who knows you have broken His law and therefore deserve death. His justice requires the death penalty for you. He cannot give you mercy because you do not deserve it. But God loves you..... He made a way for His justice and His mercy to be done. Want to know the way God gives both justice and mercy???"

Sorry, but a failure to understand analogies implies a lack of intellectual competency. Saying that God is not a police officer so the analogy fails is not an argument. In fact that type of thinking is both ignorant and laughable.

Nowhere in the Quran is the penalty of sin death. The penalty of sin is punishment. That means there is no death penalty for God. In fact, sinning leads you to live in ETERNAL punishment--not death--I'm sure the bible even agrees that there is an eternal hell. If the punishment for sin is death, then why make people live forever in hell?

God can be both just and merciful the same way a judge or a police officer can be.

Hello brother Osama,

The only hajj rituals are the ones listed in the Quran. All others (outside of the Quran), like the one you mentioned (stoning of the devil) are not hajj rituals.

Quran 3:7 refers to the interpretation of the Quran, not Muhammad's hadiths. I seek the Quran and only the Quran, just as I was instructed by Allah. I don't understand your usage of Quran 3:7, it seems to do nothing at all. The verses that say the Quran is the only source of law are not allegorical verses. They are clear, there is no room for any alternate interpretation.

In fact Quran 3:7 goes against Sunni islam.

"He it is who sent down to you the book, in IT are verses..."

Wouldn't this be a perfect place to mention the alleged other source of law that Muhammad received from Allah?

Besides this, I believe the Quran is Allah's final testament and reminder to humanity. I also believe the Quran is the only source of law in Islam and all sunni/shia Muslims that I have debated have failed to prove the otherwise. I can literally pop up one verse that completely destroys both those sects. Quran 45:6. What is their explanation for that verse? Did Allah not really mean that these Quranic verses are all that we could believe in? If you were Allah and wanted to let everyone know that they cannot believe anything besides those verses, how would you better word that verse?

During the Hajj, Muslims collect 21 pebbles and throw them at 3 different stations (7 pebbles at each station). By doing so, they are led to believe that they are expressing their rejection of Satan and gaining spiritual strength to fight his evil influence. In support of such beliefs, they refer to some of the most ridiculous fabricated ‘hadith’, one of which claims that every time a stone is thrown at any of the three Satanic stations, that Satan in fact feels pain and groans in agony!! Believe that and you will believe anything! In actual fact the devil, and who is obviously not sitting at those silly alters waiting to be aimed at, is probably laughing his head off and rejoicing for succeeding in deviating the millions of idol worshippers from the sole aim of Hajj, which is to ‘Praise and commemorate God’, and instead be preoccupied with his name! In reality, Satan has taken up two or three days of their valuable Hajj days to utter his name!! The fact that they are stoning him and cursing his name and not singing his praises is totally insignificant, simply because Satan's goal is not to get worshipped by humans--but to corrupt humans from correctly submitting to Allah.

« on: June 29, 2014, 07:53:43 PM »
Correction : The Quranic rule and stand point is the following verse:

Holy Quran 3:85 Anyone who desires something other than Islam as a religion will never have it accepted from him, while in the Hereafter he will be among the losers.

You are equivocating on the world Islam.

Let me reword Quran 3:85

"Anyone who desires something other than submission to Allah as a religion will never have it accepted from them..

That means the unitarian Christians are submitters. Islam is not limited only to the Quran and Muhammad.

Abraham was a Muslim, Jesus was a Muslim etc. etc.

So I disagree with your usage of this verse.

I even disagree partly with that......    The christians before Islam can't be easily included into the noble verse ...   they believed is Jesus as God,and they believed in the last day as bowing in their knees to Jesus the God creator...

I would agree with you here. And that is because the Quran made an exception to the rule that Christians will not grieve in the afterlife. Those who follow trinitarian Christianity cannot be saved.

the fact is that all those Jews and christians who ever hear Allah's verses in the Quran would deny them (unless some of them convert)...,those are actually the majority of jews and christians,and according to you ,by doing so, they are not living a righteous life. in other words most jews and christians can't be included in the verse 2:62 ...   and are destined to hell ...

again the rule crystal clear
Holy Quran 3:85 Anyone who desires something other than Islam as a religion will never have it accepted from him, while in the Hereafter he will be among the losers.

No, not the majority. Many Christians and Jews in the US only hear bad things about Islam--> Terrorism, evil, rape, no women's rights. They are ignorant of Islam.

Again Quran 3:85 does not contradict Quran 2:62.

Quran 2:62 says those who  are righteous believers, those who are righteous Christians and those who are righteous Jews will not grieve.

Righteous believers, Christians and Jews are submitters to Allah. So Quran 3:85 is also speaking about them.

I definitely agree with the last picture that there are some ridiculous rituals that people think are part of the hajj.

But, are you saying that the dajjal is the zionist movement or an actual person?

You too brother!!

May Allah bless you, your family and all the struggling folks out there!

The format of this will be many quranic verses. I will insert brackets in the places that Allah could have even mentioned the sunnah

Perfect places for Allah to mention the Sunnah:

I have shown the first verse:

Say (O Muhammad), "What is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you that this Quran [And sunnah] has been inspired to me to warn you with it and whomever it reaches." 6:19

Many more to come:

[4:82] Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an [and sunnah]? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction

[12.2] Surely We have revealed it-- an Arabic Quran [and sunnah]-- that you may understand.

[12.3] We narrate to you the best of narratives, by Our revealing to you this Quran [and sunnah], though before this you were certainly one of those who did not know.

[17.82] And We reveal of the Quran [and sunnah] that which is a healing and a mercy to the believers, and it adds only to the perdition of the unjust.

[18.54] And certainly We have explained in this Quran [and sunnah] every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.

[20.2] We have not revealed the Quran [and sunnah] to you that you may be unsuccessful.

[20.113] And thus have We sent it down an Arabic Quran [and sunnah] , and have distinctly set forth therein of threats that they may guard (against evil) or that it may produce a reminder for them.

[20.114] Supremely exalted is therefore Allah, the King, the Truth, and do not make haste with the Quran [and sunnah] before its revelation is made complete to you and say: O my Lord ! increase me in knowledge.

25.30] And the Apostle cried out: O my Lord! surely my people have treated this Quran [and sunnah] as a forsaken thing.

[25.32] And those who disbelieve say: Why has not the Quran [and sunnah] been revealed to him all at once? Thus, that We may strengthen your heart by it and We have arranged it well in arranging.

[27.6] And most surely you are made to receive the Quran [and sunnah] from the Wise, the Knowing God.

I was planning on doing more verses as there are a ton more, but you get the idea. If Allah wanted to say that there was another source of law besides the Quran he would not have:

1.) Stated that we can only believe in the verses in the Quran
2.) Not even hint at this other source of law

One of the biggest arguments for Quran only Islam is the fact that it has been made plain in the Quran that it's verses are the only verses to be believed in:

[Quran 45:6] These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after Allah and His verses will they believe?

If I write a book and say "These are my sentences which I write to you, do not believe in anything besides my sentences", then I would be CLEAR that the sentences in MY book are the only things to be followed. The above verse uses the word "these" meaning these Quranic verses are the only statement pertaining to Islam that we could believe!

Now sunni and shia muslims say, "oh, when Allah says that these Quranic verses are all that we can believe in, he does not really mean that these are the only verses we can believe in". Well then, let me ask you this. If you were Allah and you wanted to make it clearer that the Quran;s verses are all that we could follow, how would you write this verse differently? How would you better say that these verses are all that we could believe in?

Now that (above) is the strongest argument for Quran-Only Islam! It has been made plain, you cannot hide behind the fact that the Quran makes it clear that you will only follow the verses that are in the Quran.

Now the second strongest argument for Quran-only Islam is that Allah has not mentioned in the Quran the sunnah when he could have. Here is the perfect verse to talk about the sunnah:

Say (O Muhammad), "What is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me to warn you with it and whomever it reaches." 6:19

This testimony which God describes as "Akbar Shahada" (the Greatest Testimony) commands Muhammad to testify that He received the Quran from God. This testimony speaks of only one revelation received by Muhammad from God which is the Quran. If Muhammad truly received other revelations from God (other than the Quran), would we not find any mention of it in the Quran? Would God hide the fact that He gave Muhammad a revelation independent of the Quran and then command us to obey it?

Wouldn't this verse be the perfect place to mention the other alleged revelation that Muhammad received for mankind?

In the next post, I will post MANY verses that are great places for Allah to even mention the sunnah or at least hint at it.

So now that was the defense of Islam. Now lets shift from defense to offense!

The NT states that Jesus had to die to atone for sins and that is how God can be both just and merciful at the same time. God implemented Justice on jesus to atone for human sin and to be forgiving to all humans.

The OT is against this:

Here is an analogy to explain how someone can be both just and merciful.

You get pulled over by a police officer, you were going 15 miles/hour above the speed limit. If the police officer lets you go free of anything he would be merciful but not just. If the police officer arrests you and puts you in jail for 3 months, he would be just and not merciful. So how does he become both just and merciful? Here are some ways:

1.) Let you go with a warning and put it on your record (if in the future you commit the crime again, the punishment will be more severe)
2.) Charge less on your speeding ticket price.

Let's say you ask for forgiveness to the police officer and he let's you off with a warning. Here the police officer was merciful and just. But if you go on and speed again, the police officer was already merciful, but now you will get a more severe punishment. That is exactly how it works with Allah. You ask for forgiveness--okay it is forgiven with the condition you would not do the sin again. If you do the sin again, Allah was already merciful to you, now you won't be forgiven again.
Or let's say the police gives you a lower speeding ticket price. That way justice was served and mercy was displayed.

Justice and Mercy goes hand in hand.

"Your Allah randomly chooses to forgive or not forgive. How can a Muslim know when Allah has forgiven you? In other words, I am asking how does Allah demonstrate (show you) his justice and mercy. Remember, the attributes of God cannot conflict. His justice and mercy must be equal at all times. How does Allah do that?"

"When you say Allah was merciful to you and forgave you, how does that equal justice requiring that a penalty be paid?"

First of all, Allah does not randomly choose to forgive or not. You don't know if Allah has forgiven you, you just hope he did and you repent. There is no magic "poof" that means you are forgiven, it is completely up to Allah.

For the second question, you assume that Allah would be merciful at the expense of justice.  As I have shown, both justice and mercy can be observed simultaneously and they are not logical contradictions.

It is not impossible to be both just and merciful.

« on: June 25, 2014, 06:11:32 PM »
3- I disagree that the Quran teaches that only those who believe the Jesus is God or trinity are destined to hell, even unitrarians are destined to hell if not accepting Islam ......

"PLZ check my study on the trinity to find out how the teachings of the unitarians goes totally against the teachings of Islam"

the Quran leave no doubt, either you take islam totally with its pure monotheism,its laws ,its last prophet ,or to leave it.... there is no in between  ....

I don't see how you can reconcile your beliefs with Quran 2:62. Quran 2:62 makes it clear that those who believe in Islam, those who believe in Christianity and those who are Jewish and ANYONE who believes in God and the last day and leads a righteous life will not grieve! The Quran then makes exceptions to that rule throughout (like when it speaks of those who follow the trinity).

How could you argue that Quran 2:62 is not making clear that those who believe in God, last day and leave a righteous life will not grieve?

Is that too much mercy from God for you to believe in? You don't think God would be that merciful?

What is the purpose of human life? To worship Allah. Christians and Jews worship Allah and follow his commands--they are fullfilling their purpose of life.

But wait. The Quran makes further exceptions to this rule (besides the trinity)!

-The Christians and Jews who heard the Quran and deny it are disbelievers! So they are excepted from this rule!
-Anyone who believes in God who has heard Allah's verses in the Quran and denied them are disbelievers!
-The Christians who believe in Jesus' divinity are disbelievers
-The jews who corrupted the scripture are disbelievers

So who is Quran 2:62 speaking of?

-The previous Christians and Jews (before Islam)
-The ignorant Christians and Jews who have not heard Allah's verses in the Quran

I don't see any way around this. No matter how many hadiths you post or how many "authentic" sources you have. Nothing will ever change this Quranic standpoint.

Quran 2:62 by the way, makes it clear that you must not only believe in God and the last day--you must also lead a righteous life. The Jews and Christians who hear Allah's verses in the Quran and deny them are not living a righteous life. Same goes with the Muslims who believe the lies that there is another source of law besides the Quran when it was made plain that the Quran is the only source of law.

You should watch the following debate:

Thanks for that link. Hamza is a great thinker, but I feel his debate style just doesn't seem to feel compelling. If you actually just focus on his points and not the way he articulated them, his points are pretty solid!

I brought this whole thing up from the consciousness thing because Allah promised in the Quran that he would show us his signs throughout the universe and WITHIN ourselves!

We have many signs of God from the universe and here we have one that is in ourselves. Consciousness. Consciousness is fundamental.
Quran 41:53 We will show them Our signs in the furthest regions and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness?

Many times people list scientific facts without realizing their implications. Many people make arguments but fail to see the philosophical implications of such an argument.

This is an example of how an atheist presented facts that shoots his world view in the foot:

« on: June 10, 2014, 04:23:53 PM »
As'salamu Alaykum,

I have some Quranist friends, They are making many rubbish claims such as Jesus will not return, We does not need to Pray or Fast. (they cite Quran 2:62

There is no Dajjal and all of that end of times lies. Those are found in Christian texts not in the Quran.  The Quran is clear that we are to follow ONLY the Quran:

[Quran 45:6] These are the verses of Allah which We recite to you in truth. Then in what statement after Allah and His verses will they believe?

If I write a book and say "These are my sentences which I write to you, do not believe in anything besides my sentences", then I would be CLEAR that the sentences in MY book are the only things to be followed. The above verse uses the word "these" meaning these Quranic verses are the only statement pertaining to Islam that we could believe!

Yusuf Ali

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

that it does not mention Fast and Pray.), Kabah is an idol (they claim that the current Kabah is Not the Kabah mentioned in Quran and same claim for Mecca) and Most of the Muslims are Pagans etc...... So, What to do?

This is not an accurate understanding of the Quran. Quranism is NOT an Islamic sect, it is Islam--and nothing away.

The fanatic Muslims always seem distressed when reminded of this particular verse. Out of prejudice, they do not relish the idea that some Jews and some Christians are destined for heaven. Sadly, they have reduced the religion of Islam to being the religion of the Quran alone and of Muhammad alone! Once again they only show their ignorance with the Quran. It is instated in the Quran that Islam is as old as Abraham.

God is aware that among the Jews, Christians and other creeds there are the pure worshippers of God who lead a righteous life. They too shall be rewarded and will not grieve.

So who among the Christians is God speaking about in 2:62? We are told in 5:72-73 that all who believe in the "trinity" or that Jesus is God in the flesh are disbelievers. Consequently, it is clear that in 2:62 God is not speaking of all Christians. The Christians who uphold the trinity and the divinity of Jesus, the god whom they believe in, are not worshipping the real Almighty God. The god whom they believe in, and who is a third of a trinity, is not the real One Almighty God, but a distorted tri-god image that is not befitting of God Almighty. The god whom they believe in who (allegedly) attained the form of a man (Jesus) and was crucified (allegedly) for our sins, once again is not the real God. The real God is One, Almighty and is unseen. The real God created Jesus rather than share His godliness with Jesus! Therefore, 2:62 does not speak of such Christians.

The words in 2:62 speak of those among the Jews and Christians who uphold God’s absolute authority and worship Him as their only god. They will surely be redeemed into God’s paradise and they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.

Does this verse at all imply that we don't have to pray or fast. Nope, because believers in Islam and Allah follow Allah's rules. If you don't, you are simply a disbeliever. IN fact in Quran 2:62 the criteria for you to not grieve in the hereafter are: Believe in Allah, the last day AND lead a righteous life. Not fasting or praying while knowing you should is not leading a righteous life!

((I crossed out the "in the Quran" part in the verse you posted that I quoted. The Quran does not say that, it just says "those who believe")))

Believers follow Allah's rules. Disbelievers disobey them. This is made clear in the Quran.

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