Author Topic: Perservation of quran  (Read 3413 times)

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Offline H.

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Perservation of quran
« on: August 11, 2017, 10:48:25 PM »
Assalamu alaikum,

I have a question regarding the preservation of the quran. Of course we all believe in the preservation of the quran i just had some questions on some ahadith which i found online on the book al itqan fee ulum al quran by al suyuti ( same to write jalalayn ).

Firstly is this book reliable

Secondly i will post some ahadith below, since my arabic is very limited i wont be able to check it so i will hope inshaallah someone could help me with these and see if it is actually in the book and if it is sahih.

A quote i saw in rashad khalifas book and on some websites ali says the quran was corrupted, is this in the book and if so is it sahih?

It is said to say: “Translation: `Ali was asked: ‘Why are you staying home?’ He said, ‘Something has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes, except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored.””

Source: Itqaan Fee Ulum Al-Quran, by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, page 59

And:

It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).

And according to the same book there used to be a quranic verse which is not here anymore.
The religion with Allah is al-Hanifiyyah (the Upright Way) rather than that of the Jews or the Christians, and those who do good will not go unrewarded. (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.525).


We used to recite a surah similar to one of the Musabbihaat, and I no longer remember it, but this much I have indeed preserved: 'O you who truly believe, why do you preach that which you do not practise?' (and) 'that is inscribed on your necks as a witness and you will be examined about it on the Day of Resurrection'. (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.526).

According to at-Tirmithi in his Kitab al-Tafsir, one of the sections of his Jami', his collection of hadith records which rates as one of the six major works of authentic tradition literature in Islam alongside the Sahihs of al-Bukhari and Muslim and the three sunan works of Abu Dawud, an-Nasai and Ibn Maja, this verse at one time formed part of Suratul-Bayyinah (Surah 98) in the Qur'an (Nöldeke, Geschichte, 1.242). This is quite possible as it fits well into the context of the short surah which contains, in other verses, some of the words appearing in the missing text, such as diin (religion, v.5), 'aml (to do, v.7), and hunafa (upright, v.4), and also contrasts the way of Allah with the beliefs of the Jews and the Christians.






Offline Syedsamad

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Re: Perservation of quran
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2017, 12:52:49 AM »
First thing First............

I have never ever come across any such tradition which can be traced back to some authentic source
now even if we consider that these things did happen...
then quran wasnt somebodys personal property this would have created chaos and would have surely recorded in any of the sahihs but no such thing maybe these narration are nothing but rumors because remember when uthman burnt all the qurans and ordered one single quran of one dialect many different scholars unanimously approved it and as far as i know only one them complained that one surah is not being added that is only because it was his own elaboration and this quran was written from bibi hafsas quran ....

looks like you have copied these links from anti-islamics maybe these things arent even present in the book and they definitely are not sahih

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Perservation of quran
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2017, 03:09:37 AM »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers,

Please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/quran/textual.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac3.htm#links


Everything you need to know about the perfect preservation of the Glorious Quran is there, insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline H.

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Re: Perservation of quran
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2017, 10:04:49 AM »
assalamu alaikum,

thanks for your answers, but i dont feel as if my question has been answered.  i asked specifically regarding some reports if they are there in the book and if they are sahih. Of course i believe the quran has been preserved, but christians and atheists who bring up this against muslims, how should we respond against these reports? because ali saying something has been added to the quran is quite heavy showing that the qurna has not been 100% preserved. so again i ask to someone who as knowledge of this book and arabic to see if these reports are found in itqan fee ulum al quran and if they are sahih,

the reports are:

It is said to say: “Translation: `Ali was asked: ‘Why are you staying home?’ He said, ‘Something has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes, except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored.””

Source: Itqaan Fee Ulum Al-Quran, by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, page 59

It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).

And according to the same book there used to be a quranic verse which is not here anymore.
The religion with Allah is al-Hanifiyyah (the Upright Way) rather than that of the Jews or the Christians, and those who do good will not go unrewarded. (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.525).


We used to recite a surah similar to one of the Musabbihaat, and I no longer remember it, but this much I have indeed preserved: 'O you who truly believe, why do you preach that which you do not practise?' (and) 'that is inscribed on your necks as a witness and you will be examined about it on the Day of Resurrection'. (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.526).

According to at-Tirmithi in his Kitab al-Tafsir, one of the sections of his Jami', his collection of hadith records which rates as one of the six major works of authentic tradition literature in Islam alongside the Sahihs of al-Bukhari and Muslim and the three sunan works of Abu Dawud, an-Nasai and Ibn Maja, this verse at one time formed part of Suratul-Bayyinah (Surah 98) in the Qur'an (Nöldeke, Geschichte, 1.242). This is quite possible as it fits well into the context of the short surah which contains, in other verses, some of the words appearing in the missing text, such as diin (religion, v.5), 'aml (to do, v.7), and hunafa (upright, v.4), and also contrasts the way of Allah with the beliefs of the Jews and the Christians.

Offline shaad

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Re: Perservation of quran
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2017, 10:46:18 AM »
This website deals with this subject and they claim these are unauthentic...

https://refutingansweringislam.wordpress.com/2015/02/13/textual-integrity-missing-passages-of-quran/

Offline shaad

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Re: Perservation of quran
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2017, 10:54:58 AM »
This article deals with the first argument...kind of...

http://www.answering-christianity.com/rk_2.htm

Offline shaad

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Re: Perservation of quran
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2017, 11:01:59 AM »

Offline H.

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Re: Perservation of quran
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2017, 11:11:56 AM »
salam,

i visited the link and it just says it is unauthentic, doesnt say why or how, doesnt show the weakness in the sanad, just saying something is unauthentic is not good enough, you need reasons and proof as well.

i have already found an answer to this one: `Abdullah b. `Umar reportedly said, 'Let none of you say, "I have got the whole of the Qur'an." How does he know what all of it is? MUCH OF THE QUR'AN HAS GONE. Let him say instead, "I have got what has survived."' (Jalal al Din `Abdul Rahman b. Abi Bakr al Suyuti, al-Itqan fi `ulum al-Qur'an, Halabi, Cairo, 1935/1354, Volume 2, p. 25)

firstly this hadith has been put in al suyutis book in the section: Section forty-seven: About the Abrogating and the Abrogated, Al-Itiqan fil Uloom al-Quran, Haeya al-Masriya al-‘Aamah lil-Kitab, Egypt 1974 vol.3 p.66, 82-83

and this is not the only time he quotes this hadith, he also quotes it again and again he puts it under the chapter heading of the abrogation: Mu'tarik al-Aqran fi Aijaz al-Qur’an, Dar al-Kotob Al-Ilmiyah, Beirut, 1988 vol.1 p.95


this hadith al suyuti quotes is originally from the works of In Abu ‘Ubayd’s (d. 228 A.H.) and he again puts it under his title of abrogation: “[About] what all was abrogated from the Qur’an after revelation and is not put in the Masahif.”Fada’il al-Qur’an, Dar Ibn Kathir, Damascus, 1995 vol.1 p.320

Most important is the narration quoted by Hafiz Ibn Hajr (d. 852 A.H.) which compliments and fixes the meaning of the report we are discussing. Ibn Hajr writes;

وقد أخرج بن الضريس من حديث بن عمر أنه كان يكره أن يقول الرجل قرأت القرآن كله ويقول إن منه قرآنا قد رفع

Ibn al-Dhurays has narrated a report of Ibn Umar that he used to dislike the person who said, ‘I have recited the whole of the Qur’an.’ He (Ibn Umar) used to say, ‘But (the reality is) a part of the Qur’an has been abrogated.’ Fath al-Bari, Dar al-Ma’rifah, Beirut 1379 A.H. vol.9 p.65

This report seals the fact that Ibn Umar’s statement simply refers to what was abrogated from the Qur’an.  so when someone today says i have read the WHOLE of the quran. Ibn umars claim is that you have read the whole quran which allah swt intended to preserve, but the abrogated parts (like the verse of stoning, and the verse of breastfeeding) you have not read, and not all of the abrogated parts you have read. So you may have read everything that is in the quran, but you havent read all of the abrogated verses such as the verse of stoning, of breastfeeding and all other revelation that wasnt intended to be in the quran for eternitiy, but rather was supposed to be abrogated. That is why this quote keeps coming under chapter headings: abrogation

Abu Bakr ibn Tayyib Al-Baqilani (d. 403 A.H.) in his amazing work al-Intisar li’l-Qur’an (In Defence of the Qur’an), quotes another narration on the similar lines and then explains the two together. He writes;

ونحوُ روايةِ عبدُ الله بنُ عباسِ عن أبي أنه سمعه وقد قال له رجل: "يا أبا المنذر إني قد جمعت القرآن، فقال له: ما يدريكَ لعله قد سقطَ قرآن كثير فما وُجد بعد".

And similar is the report of Abdullah bin ‘Abbas from Ubay, that he heard a man said to him; ‘O Abu al-Munzar verily I have gathered (i.e. memorized) the whole of the Qur’an.’ He (Ubay) said to him, ‘He does not know (what the whole of it was) because so much of the Qur’an was abrogated and it was not found afterwards.’[5]

And then explaining it he writes;

“And it is not possible for anyone to claim that he has learnt (all) what was revealed as Qur’an- the abrogating part of it and the abrogated. And their words ‘it was not found afterwards’ (underscore) that we do not find in our day one who has memorized all that was abrogated and whose recitation was given up. And this is something which was bound to happen.” [6]

this is a shorter explanation of this hadith.

if you want a full refutation visit the following links:

http://icraa.org/meaning-of-ibn-umars-statement-much-of-the-quran-is-gone/
http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2012/10/ibn-umar-irreparable-much-quran-loss.html#tab2


also according to another site:

It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).

This reference to the Itqan is untraceable as no edition of it is in less than two volumes to my knowledge.

The above refers to a famous saying of Ibn `Umar, once again deceptively/ignorantly mistranslated so as to mislead readers to think it means other than its actual meaning.

The words used by Ibn `Umar for the terms given as "acquired," "disappeared," and "what has survived" above were -- I am quoting from memory -- respectively "ahattu" (I have encompassed), "faatahu" (escapes him), and "ma tayassara minhu" (whatever amount of it has been facilitated). The actual meaning of Ibn `Umar's words is:

"Let no one say: I have encompassed the whole of the Qur'an [= its meanings]. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an escapes him? Rather, let him say: I have encompassed whatever amount of it has been facilitated [for me to know]."

Ibn `Umar was famous for his strictness in refraining from interpreting the Qur'an, even criticizing Ibn `Abbas's interpretive zeal in the beginning, then accepting its authority. He was not referring to the collection of the Qur'an! But only to the ethics of the exegete, in the same line as Ibn `Abbas's saying narrated by al-Tabari and cited by al-Suyuti and al-Zarkashi: "There are ambiguous verses in the Qur'an which no one knows besides Allah. Whoever claims that he knows them, is a liar."




Offline H.

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Re: Perservation of quran
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2017, 11:19:57 AM »
also in my last post i posted this explanation i found on another site:

It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).

This reference to the Itqan is untraceable as no edition of it is in less than two volumes to my knowledge.

The above refers to a famous saying of Ibn `Umar, once again deceptively/ignorantly mistranslated so as to mislead readers to think it means other than its actual meaning.

The words used by Ibn `Umar for the terms given as "acquired," "disappeared," and "what has survived" above were -- I am quoting from memory -- respectively "ahattu" (I have encompassed), "faatahu" (escapes him), and "ma tayassara minhu" (whatever amount of it has been facilitated). The actual meaning of Ibn `Umar's words is:

"Let no one say: I have encompassed the whole of the Qur'an [= its meanings]. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an escapes him? Rather, let him say: I have encompassed whatever amount of it has been facilitated [for me to know]."

Ibn `Umar was famous for his strictness in refraining from interpreting the Qur'an, even criticizing Ibn `Abbas's interpretive zeal in the beginning, then accepting its authority. He was not referring to the collection of the Qur'an! But only to the ethics of the exegete, in the same line as Ibn `Abbas's saying narrated by al-Tabari and cited by al-Suyuti and al-Zarkashi: "There are ambiguous verses in the Qur'an which no one knows besides Allah. Whoever claims that he knows them, is a liar."


in the english version of itqaan fee ulum al quran: http://ebooks.rahnuma.org/religion/Quran/Alitqanfiulumalquran-Suyuti%20English.pdf

it is translated as follows: Abã `Ubaid said: ismail b ibrahim reported to us, from Ayyub, from nafi`, from Ibn
`Umar, who said: >None of you should say that he has full knowledge of the Quran; how could
he know what full knowledge is! So much of the Quran has passed him by! Let him say instead:
>I have taken of the Quran that which was present.

so it seems as if the following explanation is also a good refutation of the claim made by them,

i just want to ask, who is abu ubaid, and is he strong in hadith, next who is ayyub in this hadith and is he strong, who is nafi and is he strong in hadith jazakallah khair.

Offline H.

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Re: Perservation of quran
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2017, 11:36:09 AM »
with regard to the one of ali ibn abi talib ra,

in the english version i was able to find the one of ibn umar of the "much is gone" but i was not able to find this one of ali, so i ask anyone who knows arabic good, as mine is limited if this quote from ali is in the arabic version of itqaan fii ulum al quran: t is said to say: “Translation: `Ali was asked: ‘Why are you staying home?’ He said, ‘Something has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes, except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored.””

Source: Itqaan Fee Ulum Al-Quran, by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, page 59

the english version is here: http://ebooks.rahnuma.org/religion/Quran/Alitqanfiulumalquran-Suyuti%20English.pdf, i found the ibn umar quote but couldnt do the same with this quote of ali, so could someone help me find it in both the english and arabic version, if it is found in the english please copy and paste the text and the isnad, and if found in the arabic please do a literal translation.

so an easy fix for this hadith and refutation, firstly i cant find it so for as long as i care it doesnt exist until proven (please guys help me find it lol), but if there was something added to the quran, WOULDNT ALI REMOVE THIS WHEN HE WAS CALIPH? so an easy fix is that ali never changed the quran during his khilafah proving that he didnt find anything added to the quran, showing that this hadith makes no sense.

also this hadith is mainly used in the context of  9:128-129, (if ali said that these verses were corruptions HE WOULD HAVE TAKEN THEM OUT DURING HIS KHILAFAH), which rashad khalifa and some of the quranists today say were false verses, proof: his book: https://books.google.nl/books?id=DWkeDNySuz0C&pg=PA444&lpg=PA444&dq=ali+something+has+been+added+to+the+quran&source=bl&ots=UA_TgVJVfc&sig=oO8gLyf5AxftacMcRO45okNY5Rc&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinjqKQj9LVAhVG2BoKHZ8KC0MQ6AEIMzAB#v=onepage&q=ali%20something%20has%20been%20added%20to%20the%20quran&f=false and http://www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/quran/new_information/2_false_verses_(P1252).html

quranist site: http://www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/quran/new_information/2_false_verses_(P1252).html

but we can proce these verses were utteres by the prophet and are part of the quran which i will do now with links which have already answered it:

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/are_the_verses_from_surah_9_128_129_and_surah_33_23_falsely_added_to_the_quran_
http://www.answering-christianity.com/rk_2.htm
http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2010/11/alleged-false-verses-9128-9-of-quran.html?m=1

And Ahmad said: Ali bin Bahr said that Ali bin Muhammad bin Salma on the authority of Muhammad ibn Ishaq on the authority of Yahya bin Ebad on the authority of his father Ebad bin Zubayr may Allah be pleased with him said that Al Harith (Zayd) approached bin Khuzaymah with these two verses from the ending of Surah Al Bara'a (Surah 9) 'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves' to Abdullah ibn Umar Al Khattab so he said 'Who is with you on this?' He said 'I don't know' and by Allah I testify that I heard it from the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him and I learned it and memorized it then Umar said: And I testify that I heard it from the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him. (Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, Commentary on Surah 9:129, Source)

So we clearly see that indeed the companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) did know about these two verses.



 


Offline H.

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Re: Perservation of quran
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2017, 12:03:22 PM »
assalamu alaikum,

i think i will make a seperate topic for the very last one as i dont have an answer for it so i would like to get the most attention as i can to get a good response to my question inshaAllahu taala

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Perservation of quran
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2017, 06:41:30 PM »
As'salamu Alakum dear brother Hani and Everyone,

Brother, the Quranic Scholars Committee during Caliph Uthman (third Caliph), may Allah Almighty be pleased with him, were the ones who compiled the Glorious Quran to the full, kept it, and made copies of it.  The Glorious Quran was documented to the letter and vowel during Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) time, as the Noble Verses in the link below clearly reveal.  And it was fully preserved and protected also during the first and second Caliphs, Abu Bakr and Omar, may Allah Almighty be pleased with them.  The Uthman committee wrote the down the entire Glorious Quran to the letter and vowel, and they burnt all of the false qurans (corrupted copies written by men).  Many copies of the official copy were made and they were distributed throughout the NEW CONQUERED Muslim lands.

There are documented claims by some people here and there that some Quran Surahs are missing verses.  People either were confused or were lying, because these were references from the corrupt qurans that all got burned.  See the links below.  The Glorious Quran Committee Scholars ended this once and for all as Allah Almighty also Promised.  Please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/quran/textual.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac3.htm#links


I hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

 

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