Author Topic: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."  (Read 47420 times)

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Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2013, 12:12:56 PM »
Thank you Osama! May God reward you!

Ok, so there is this other thing that they claim. They claim that an entire chapter was missing from the Quran. And this is the Hadith they quote it with:

Sahih muslim hadith no. 2286:

Abu Harb b. Abu al-Aswad reported on the authority of his father that Abu Musa al-Ash'ari sent for the reciters of Basra. They came to him and they were three hundred in number. They recited the Qur'an and he said: You are the best among the inhabitants of Basra, for you are the reciters among them. So continue to recite it. (But bear in mind) that your reciting for a long time may not harden your hearts as were hardened the hearts of those before you. We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: "If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust." And we used so recite a surah which resembled one of the surahs of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it, but remember (this much) out of it: "Oh people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practise" (lxi 2.) and "that is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection" (xvii. 13).

They make the allegation that an entire chapter the size of chapter 9 was forgotten so therefore, the Quran is not 100% the word of God.

How do we respond?

Offline zulfiqarchucknorris

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2013, 04:55:55 PM »
I would also like to say that even before Uthman became Caliph, there was already a full Quran made. Abu Bakr, compiled the quran from the written copies written at the time of the prophet, and by people who memorized it, and had one of the first "full copies". He later gave it to hafsa, it was this same copy that was used as a template for Uthman's "copy" of the quran, in reality, whe only made it official, abubakr was the first to compile the full quran.

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2013, 11:01:30 AM »
And silence has befallen the board once again :).  hehehehe.  Thank you dear brother Zulfiqar.  Yes indeed, the Glorious Quran had been fully compiled by the first Islamic Caliph, if not even earlier, and it was definitely written down by hand, Verse for Verse, by the Quranic Scribes during Prophet Muhammad's time, peace be upon him.

To further prove this, watch this videos in the "Scientific Proofs" section in the following article, to see how the deliberate spelling of the Noble Words in the Holy Quran were put there for a Divine Reason, and how they are Numerically Miraculous:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm

A lottttttt more on this coming up once I finish translating AND VERIFYING ALL THE COUNTS FOR EACH WORD AND EACH LETTER in the 653-page Arabic book that is filled with hundreds of examples of this kind, insha'Allah (if Allah Almighty is Willing).  I am planning on finishing it by the end of this year, insha'Allah.

The bottom line is this:  Even the very writing of the Holy Quran is a Miracle by itself!

Indeed, all Praise and Glory are due to Allah Almighty Alone for making the Noble Quran and the Divine Inspirations that He Sent to Prophet Muhammad be the Perfect and Everlasting Miracle, for us humans, out of all of His Divine Miracles!  And may Allah Almighty send His Peace, Mercy and Blessings upon our Beloved and Blessed Prophet, Teacher and Role Model, Muhammad.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2013, 06:45:27 PM »
But what about those Hadiths that admit that parts of the Quran has been corrupted. Apparently on Sahih muslim 2286, an entire chapter was lost!

Offline Sama

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2013, 10:28:32 PM »
But what about those Hadiths that admit that parts of the Quran has been corrupted. Apparently on Sahih muslim 2286, an entire chapter was lost!

Assalam alaikum

One of the favorite topics of missionaries is Abrogation in Qurān. Giving a notion as if abrogated verses were lost they try to put the authenticity of Qurān to doubt. Let’s today explain as to what abrogation is and what are the facts about specific narrations they bring forward?

What is abrogation and the Quranic scheme about it?

Now let me explain abrogation is and what it’s not as I know Christians normally tend to be very amazed at God abrogating His own verses. But unfortunately their amazement is only when it comes to Qurān.

When some rules are abrogated and replaced by some other rules then it means that Allah in His wisdom changed the rules. It is just like ‘…A physician prescribes a medicine for the patient in view of his present conditions, but he knows when the patient has been using it for two days, his conditions will change and require a new medicine – with this realization, he prescribes a medicine suitable for that day, but two days later, when circumstances have changed, he prescribes a new one. The physician can easily give the patient written instructions for the whole course of treatment, with all the changes in medicine duly indicated. But this would be putting too much burden on already feeble patient and there would also be danger of harm through a possible error or misunderstanding.’ (Ma’ariful Qurān vol.1 under 2:106)This is a manifestation how Allāh causes people to forget the previous revelations He intends not to be retained and preserved.

Further about abrogation Allāh Almighty says in the Qurān;

مَا نَنْسَخْ مِنْ آَيَةٍ أَوْ نُنْسِهَا نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِنْهَا أَوْ مِثْلِهَا أَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

“None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?” (Qurān 2:106)

Sometimes it was plainly told that a verse previously revealed stands abrogated and sometimes before such any announcement people were made to forget it. An account of it is given in a Hadīth which says that a person tried to recite a sūrah but he couldn’t remember it except for ‘Bismillahi Ar-Rahmān Al-Rahīm’ so next morning he came to the Holy Prophet (صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ) to ask about it and similarly some other people also as the same happened to them as well. So the Holy Prophet (صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ) said in response:

نسخت البارحة
‘This was abrogated yesterday.’

(Mushkil Al-Athār 5/35 Hadīth 1711. the narration is authentic. See Footnote to Al-Ittiqān section 47 p.1463 pub. Saudi Ministry of Islamic publications)


The hadeeth says they were 300, the best of them, none of them said, o wait it's not abrogated, they were hufaaz.

"We used to recite a sūrah which resembled in length and severity to (Sūrah) Bar’āt."

iCertainly we do not find a sūrah with this verse this verse in the Qurān now. So what happened of it? Infact it was abrogated and another sūrah was revealed instead;

عَنْ أَنَسُ بْنُ مَالِكٍ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ لَوْ أَنَّ لِابْنِ آدَمَ وَادِيًا مِنْ ذَهَبٍ أَحَبَّ أَنْ يَكُونَ لَهُ وَادِيَانِ وَلَنْ يَمْلَأَ فَاهُ إِلَّا التُّرَابُ وَيَتُوبُ اللَّهُ عَلَى مَنْ تَابَ وَقَالَ لَنَا أَبُو الْوَلِيدِ حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ سَلَمَةَ عَنْ ثَابِتٍ عَنْ أَنَسٍ عَنْ أُبَيٍّ قَالَ كُنَّا نَرَى هَذَا مِنْ الْقُرْآنِ حَتَّى نَزَلَتْ أَلْهَاكُمْ التَّكَاثُرُ

Narrated Anas bin Mālik the Messenger of Allāh (صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ) said; "If the son of Adam were given a valley full of gold, he would love to have a second one; and if he were given the second one, he would love to have a third, for nothing fills the belly of Adam's son except dust. And Allah forgives he who repents to Him."
Ubai said, "We considered this as a saying from the Qur'an till the Sura (beginning with) 'The mutual rivalry for piling up of worldly things diverts you..' (102.1) was revealed."
(Sahīh Bukhari, Kitābul Riqāq, Hadīth 5959)

Now if you compare the known part of the abrogated sūrah, 'If the son of Adam were given a valley full of gold, he would love to have a second one; and if he were given the second one, he would love to have a third, for nothing fills the belly of Adam's son except dust' with Quran chapter 102 'The mutual rivalry for piling up (the good things of this world) diverts you (from the more serious things), Until ye visit the graves'...Both these clearly relate to man's insatiable crave for worldly riches. It thus complies with the general principle of abrogation; 'but We substitute something better or similar.’

The discussion above proves abrogation doesn’t cause any doubt about the preservation and authenticity of the Holy Qurān. Only such parts have been taken away which were not required to be preserved and were dropped according to the Divine plan after verses similar or better were revealed instead.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 10:30:47 PM by Sama »

Offline zulfiqarchucknorris

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2013, 08:55:54 PM »
abrogation =/= lost
remember that
abrogation means the surah is still there in the quran, but is overpowered by another surah.

Offline Sama

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2013, 06:45:32 AM »
abrogation =/= lost
remember that
abrogation means the surah is still there in the quran, but is overpowered by another surah.
http://web.youngmuslims.ca/online_library/books/ulum_al_quran/Ch5S3s6.htm

Offline submit

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2013, 11:20:32 AM »

Lastly, the third way people can respond to the findings of this academic research is Jesus. He says about himself literally, “I am the way and the truth and the life.”12 He is the answer to the prayer Muslims are to perform five times every day, saying: ‘Show us the straight way, the way of those on whom you have bestowed your Grace…’ Jesus did not say, ‘I am showing you the way into Christianity.’ He simply says, ‘I am the way.’ Eternal life in paradise comes from following him alone. It happens by grace, by an undeserved favour. Jesus wants us to turn around from our old ways and put our faith in him and what he has done for us on the cross. He does not ask people to abandon the good aspects of their culture or to embrace the sinful parts of a Western lifestyle. God will give us the power to be like Jesus in whatever situation we find ourselves in.

Jesus is not only the way but he is also the living word of God. The Quran calls him uniquely, ‘Kalimatullah’ – ‘The Word of God’ (Surah 4:171; cf. Revelation 19:13 & John 1); it is identical with God. The Bible is about Jesus. Many articles have been written to show that it is still trustworthy.13 However, the standard and definition by which the Holy Scriptures of the people of the Book has been revealed and preserved is different from the one given hundreds of years later by Muslims. Whoever examines the Bible on its own terms, praying earnestly and with an open heart for guidance will be blessed. I invite you to do so through a simple e-mail correspondence course. Please contact me to get the first of six lessons.

What are Christian missionaries trying to achieve? lol. After pointing out about variants of Quran, which Muslims themselves have mention about their existence  in hadith. They attack the preservation of Quran and invite to embrace 'inspired Bible'. Even Christians can't claim their bible as preserved but rather at best 'inspired'.

And what do they have?
 
They have torn greek fragments which are accounts of Jesus life, and its well known that those greek made up stories were never verified by Jesus himself; to be legit.  Why can't Holy Spirit preserve Logia of Jesus (pure sayings of Jesus) in Aramaic?

Quote
here are some Christians very own admission:

According to the unquestioned tradition of the Christian Fathers, which has always been accepted by the Church, the primary nucleus of our canonical gospels was not a life of Jesus at all, but a collection of the Logia, oracles, or sayings, the Logia Kuriaka, which were written down in Hebrew or Aramaic, by one Matthew.

“The differences among the manuscripts have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists or through the perverse audacity of others; they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they make additions or deletions as they please.” Origen, early church father 3rd century in “Commentary on Matthew.”

Compare with 4th century codexes Sinaiticus or Vatinacus. You will be surprise how Holy Spirit inside the scribes fail to prevent them from changing words of God ever since the very beginning.

Back to the topic;

The variants in words and location were in fact mention in hadith, albeit not all. The companions of prophet knew about issues that might arise in future if the text variants are allowed to be widely distributed. Thus those variants were then destroyed and written over with the Uthmanic text that we have today.

So from Christian missionaries point of view, their only claim right now is to either say the known-variant Quran  as the word of God or Uthman's variant as word of God. But then again, we have the act of filtering pre-Uthman Qurans as recorded in hadith. In other words companions have read chapter by chapter and recognize where the location of those word variants.

Offline Sama

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3asadullah

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2020, 06:50:34 AM »
For the Sanaa Manuscript, this is not a quranic manuscript, Asma Hilali who is specialized on quranic manuscript wrote a book about the sanaa Salimpset and she said it was just a student notebook made by a student who was learning the Quran.
And in this notebook, he has left all the mistakes, for asma hilali it was for the student a way to remember where are the mistakes.
And she gives an example, all the surahs in the Quran start by the basmalla except the surah Tawba (9th surah) but in the sanaa manuscript there was the basmallah in the 9th surah, but just next to the basmallah, Hilali noted there was a piece of text and when hilali deciphered this text she understood it was written "do not say the basmalla"
In Her book, there are other examples, but she concluded that sanaa palimpset was just done during lesson by a student and all the mistakes were done by the student who was trying to learn the quran.


For the hadith who says reciters forgot other surah there is a very good video for this : (removed)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2020, 10:25:53 AM by QuranSearchCom »

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2020, 10:25:28 AM »
As'salamu Alaikum,

Jazaka Allah Khayr for the efforts, akhi.  But brother, I wholeheartedly disagree with you on the abrogation topic.  This is a big lie and conspiracy that was invented on Islam, similar to the Prophet got bewitched false hadiths, which the Quran declares this to be a lie.

The Glorious Quran contains no abrogations at all.  No Verse is lost.  The Noble Verse that you used about the Prophet forgetting does not prove a thing at all.  The Divine Revelations were sent down already to earth to the Prophet.  Allah Almighty PROMISED to protect every revelation that He sent down from the Quran.  Gabriel was teaching the Prophet how to recite the Quran.  The Prophet forgetting verses doesn't mean that the Noble Verse now means that portions of the Quran were forgotten and/or lost.  This is a big lie on Islam!  Allah Almighty made it crystal clear that He does not abrogate nor causes for any verse to be forgotten.  He brings what is similar or better.  This is about the Laws of the Quran, and the different situations requiring certain laws.

Anyway, I have removed your link.  Not really thrilled about your rebuttal.  But wanted to post this so you would read it.  Please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/was_muta_immoral.htm#no_abrogation
www.answering-christianity.com/abrogation.htm


Take care,
Osama Abdallah

 

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