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Title: Christian throws everything at me and how do i reply to him???
Post by: Isa27James on November 24, 2013, 04:54:52 PM
Assalam alykam a christian has said something about this verse more below

5-53. And those who believe will say: "Are these the men (hypocrites) who swore their strongest oaths by Allah that they were with you (Muslims)?" All that they did has been in vain (because of their hypocrisy), and they have become the losers.

he also says to me
I just got in from Church and I am about leave out to go back and worship some more God willing. So I do not have time to give the detailed type of answer I would like to give, but this will have to do until later tonight God willing. I think like what happens most times in these sorts of conversations there is failure to communicate differing ideas and differing understandings of  meanings of words. So people and up talking past each other, I don;t want to talk past you and i hope you would not want to talk past me. So we both need to try as hard as possible to make sure the other person is understanding what we are trying to say.
For one I am taking my time to speak to you like I am open to do with any Muslim out of compassion, I was in your exact same shoes not to long ago. Every argument you have used, are using and will use I already know about, and yet I reject all of them because they contradict objective reality and reason. For example you have expressed that the Trinity is not in the Bible and other things and yet just like the writer of the Quran you have shown you have no knowledge of what is even being claimed by believers in the Trinity. So in reality you are not rejecting the actual doctrine of the Trinity, you are blind following your pre-conceived notions and prejudices without verifying if they are correct or not.
 The Quran writers thought Christians believed in Tritheism, the belief there are three independent gods, and that Allah was the 3rd god of three other gods, those being Jesus and Mary. The Quran writer also believed that Christian thought Allah took Mary as a wife and had Jesus by her through sexual relations. This is a prime reason why I had to reject the Quran, Tritheism is not the Trinity, they are two different things. No Christian believes any of these things, our bible doesn't claim these things, none of our book of theology or doctrine claim these things. in fact these perverted claims are just as blasphemous to us as they are to Muslims.
 Its sad you and other Muslims have been mistakenly misled to accept confusion and untruths in the Quran about the Trinity and mistakenly think when we say God is a Trinity you think we are referring to what is properly called Tritheism. But I can not accept that an all knowing God wouldn't know the truth about all these things. An All knowing God could not have written Surah 5:53, its clear to any reasonable person it was written by a human being only. In fact to twist your oppositions position into something easier for you to refute is called a straw man logical fallacy, the Quran trying to paint the Trinity as being like Tritheism is a straw man argument, I can not accept a God would ever use a logical fallacy. God created reason and has to be reasonable, I may not understand everything God does but  that doesn't mean God is being unreasonable. 
I am not going to waste my time refuting straw man arguments and low level dawah, I am not bragging but I am above that level. You are not going to convince me with internet conspiracy theories, what you can do as I have invited you to, that is interact with what is being said in a clear intelligent manner. Please do not forget I use to give dawah, so simple dawah arguments don't work on me. Also saying a a Jew disagrees with you doesn't impress me either, that's Dawah 101 and insulting to my intelligence. Truth is not determined by the opinion of a random Jew, or a group random Jews, That Jew and all the Jews are human being who need to repent or be damned to hell, no one man is a source of infallible information. Its simply a historical fact the majority of Judaism believed and expected an divine Messiah prior to the Romans destroying Jerusalem. I just gave a lecture on this subject at U of M university quoting from the foremost researches in this subject. Your Jewish friends opinion doesn't cancel out actual documented facts. In the very Bible you and he have access to its is clear the The Jews of Jesus day understood him to be claiming to the Logos the Word of God in flesh before them, His disciples responded by worshiping him and calling him God and his enemies responded by saying he uttered blasphemy and had him crucified...these again are facts no one gets to have their own personal feelings.

If you believe Jesus doesn't need to die to atone for sin you should be a atheist not a Muslim ...that would make more sense and be more logically consistent. Since Islam teaches substitutionary atonement the Quran and Sunnah, someone acted as a substitute on the cross for Jesus to be saved the very thing you same can never take place on our behalf! Jews an Christians will replace Muslims in hell so Muslims can be saved from hell and enter Jannah! So again be consistent!
Getting ready for church, I will email you later and show you where Muhammad said to the Christians the first part of surrah Maryam was unclear and no one knows its meaning but Allah and only those who have a disease in their heart ask about its meaning, this was after the same exact verses were supposedly sent down to give a clear answer the same Christians.

Please refute his long post if you have the time and energy  JazakAllah khair
Title: Re: Christian throws everything at me and how do i reply to him???
Post by: abdullah on November 24, 2013, 10:09:28 PM
Are those his exact words? If so, he is stupider than he try's to make himself out to be. What is this talk about him being an ex muslim. He is trying to make an argument from authority. His point on the trinity are absurd for two reasons.1. The Quran doesn't say it is referring to christianity. 2.the trinity is logically unjustifiable. The Quran is just asking Christians to think about what they believe in so they see it doesn't make sense. He also errs in another issue. Even if Jesus claimed to be god in the bible what proof does he have that the bible is from god. Ask him to prove the bible is from god. He has none. All he will have are circular arguments such as god inspired man and some other bs.
Title: Re: Christian throws everything at me and how do i reply to him???
Post by: Isa27James on November 24, 2013, 11:19:42 PM
yes those are his exact words  he is a real former Muslim because i have seen dawah videos of his

here they are when he was a muslim  take a look and give me your thoughts

how did he get so misguided and become a mushrik
Title: Re: Christian throws everything at me and how do i reply to him???
Post by: FARHAN_UDDIN on November 25, 2013, 05:17:35 AM

 I don't see any problem with verse 5:53. I don't know where he sees problem in this verse and goes on saying its not from Allah.