Author Topic: Do you guys see the problem with Islam?  (Read 26384 times)

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Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Do you guys see the problem with Islam?
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2014, 04:00:31 PM »
You have every right to deny our Hadith collection. The Quran could not be any more clear.

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Mclinkin94 and all of the brothers and sisters reading,

Akhi Mclinkin94,

Your statement above and beliefs go against the Holy Quran that you use to reject the Hadiths:

[016:044] (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.

The Holy Quran couldn't be any clearer about following what Prophet Muhammad commanded, akhi.  The problem with the hadiths collections, and the conspiracies and blasphemies that exist in them doesn't nullify all of the Hadiths.  It's like the Bible akhi.  We can't just dismiss all of it.  We know there is Truth in it.  Yet, we also know that it is not Absolute Divine Truth like the Holy Quran.

The Hadiths to me are like the Bible.  I am very careful with them.  A Hadith is a lie until proven otherwise.  This is how I approach the Hadiths.  It's like the Bible's and the other old Scriptures' verses.  They too are man-made lies until proven otherwise.  This is why the closest they get to is "closest to the Truth, but not Absolute Truth like the Holy Quran".  I already mentioned that above and gave the reasons and link to why.

Where is the proof for my statement above?


I was asked before how can I substantiate the following statement from the Holy Quran:

Here is the bottom line:  What agrees with the Holy Quran from the hadiths and also from the Bible and other scriptures is closest to the Truth, but not absolute Truth like the Holy Quran.  And what disagrees with the Holy Quran belongs to the garbage.

Here is the proof from the Holy Quran:

[016:044] (We sent them) with Clear Signs and Books of dark prophecies; and We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought.

[004:115] After the guidance has been revealed and explained, if anyone parts his way with the messenger and follows a path different from that of the believers, then We will divert him along his (chosen) path. We will hurl him in the hell (in the hereafter). What a despicable destination!

[006:046] Say, “Have you (ever) considered? What if Allah took away your hearing and your sight, and sealed off your heart? Is there a god besides Allah, who could give you back these senses?” Observe, how We explain the revelations in detail. Yet, they turn away (disdainfully).

[006:055] In this manner, We explain Our revelations in detail, so that the ways of the criminals would become (widely known and) well recognized.

So the real genuine Hadiths that are Quran-Approved are the ones that directly explain and detail the Holy Quran's Commands.  Not every word that came out of the Prophet's mouth is a legitimate Hadith:

Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari: "The Prophet used to invoke Allah, saying, "Allahumma ighfirli khati'ati wa jahli wa israfi fi amri, wa ma anta a-'lamu bihi minni. Allahumma ighfirli hazali wa jiddi wa khata'i wa amdi, wa kullu dhalika 'indi"


"O Allah! Forgive my mistakes and my ignorance and my exceeding the limit (boundaries) of righteousness in my deeds; and forgive whatever You know better than I. O Allah! Forgive the wrong I have done jokingly or seriously, and forgive my accidental and intentional errors, all that is present in me."
  (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 75, Number 408))

This is why those who say that the Prophet never spoke out of his own desire, and that every word he spoke was an inspiration are all in error.  The following Noble Verses that they use only refer to the Holy Quran's Revelations:

[053:002]  You companion has neither erred, nor has he gone astray,
[053:003]  Nor does he speak out of his own desire.
[053:004]  It is nothing but pure revelation revealed by God.
[053:005]  The Lord of the Mighty Powers has taught him (i.e., Angel Gabriel),

Those who say that Prophet Muhammad was a "Walking Quran", and that every single word he spoke was an inspiration are full of rubbish nonsense.

I hope this helps, insha'Allah

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Asalamu Alaikum brother Osama! I hope I am not wasting your time as I am sure you have more important work to do!

I agree with you 99%. I don't reject all hadiths blindly, my argument is we don't need them and there is no good reason to put your faith in them. My biggest issue with hadiths is how people use them to interpret the Quran! This is the issue. 

Many verses in the Quran maintain multi-layered meanings so that it gives the Quran flexibility for people to adapt it in the future. The Quran does this so that it could support 7th century belief and modern belief simultaneously! You have seen many examples of this. For example, the hidden scientific clues in the Quran. The Quranic support for evolution--it is beautiful how the Quran worded verses and allowed different translations for them so that it supports 7th century and modern belief! The Quran is worded precisely to allow for its flexibility in time and space.

The hadiths stop this flexibility and say that a certain Quranic verse must be translated this way because the prophet allegedly said ________(insert lie here)_________.

Brother Farhan has listed as example with one of the verses dealing with cosmic rays. Brother BlackMuslim has given us his reason for rejecting the Quran support for evolution through utilizing hadiths to interpret the Quran. He is literally saying "the hadith says this therefore the Quran means this" .This is the kind of stuff that really stops the progression of Islam and this is the stuff that diverts others from Islam.

What I did disagree with though, was your usage of Quran 16:44. This does not authorize the hadith as an additional source besides the Quran. The words in 16:44 clearly state that the messenger can only make things clear to the people by means of what is revealed to him (Quran-The Quran says only the Quran was revealed to him). This is also confirmed in 6:114 which states that the only source of law is the book. In addition, the messenger is prohibited from adding his own teachings to the message he received from God. If he does he would be committing a great error that would incur a severe punishment from God (see 69:44-46).

What this means is that the messenger is authorised only in delivering the message of the Quran and nothing else. All what he preaches and which is from the Quran must be obeyed, but not any other personal teachings that do not have reference or authorisation in the Quran. To obey the messenger blindly in every word he ever uttered is the work of those who are intent on making an idol out of the messenger.

If we read 16:44 and 3:164 on their own it may well appear that the messenger can fully explain the Quran to the people and that he is the teacher of the Quran, but what about when we read 55:1-2 which says that God is the teacher of the Quran?

Also, what about 75:19 where God is speaking to the messenger and tells him clearly that it is He (God) who will explain the Quran?

It is clear that when we read other verses we get a different picture.

As a result, we must arrive at a common meaning which would be in harmony with all the Quranic verses and not just 3:164 and 16:44.

The common meaning is that the messenger delivered the Quran to the people and that he spent all his remaining days preaching the Quran and commanding people to follow it and showing them what the Quran requires them to do.

However, the messenger cannot guide anyone or guarantee that all people will understand the true message of the Quran. It is God, and God alone, who can guide the people and truly explain the message of the book to the ones who deserve the guidance.
The Quranic verses which confirm this truth are numerous.

So now that we have established that Quran 16:44 means that the prophet will explain to people the Quran. Does that mean that we are to follow another set of laws beyond the Quran? No. It means we are to follow just the Quran and the prophet helped slightly in the past. The hadiths, as you have stated, are questionable. So we don't know what the prophet said. So when you get hadiths like kill all apostates--a concept the Quran doesn't teach, then the prophet did not say that. If you get a hadith that contradicts a discovered meaning of the Quran, like some science verses--then again you are to reject that hadiths because the prophet most-likely did not say that.

With this in mind, any hadiths that gives more information that the Quran is to be rejected. Any hadith that contradicts the  Quran is to be rejected.

So if we are to hold this viewpoint, what is the point of hadiths if they are just going to support the Quran? Why do we need them? Wouldn't the Quran just suffice?

Another way we could look at Quran 16:44: The word used is لتبين which means to make clear or to show and ends with they might give thought. That kind of shifts the responsibility of making sense of the remembrance on to the reader. There is no clear connotation that the Prophet Pbuh was assigned the task of explaining God's words. And even if that was true it would still not automatically qualify the Hadith reports as explanations. Every report in the Hadith literature would still need to pass the standard of evidence detailed in the Quran and 99.9% of the reports don't make the cut.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 10:54:06 AM by mclinkin94 »


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