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Messages - IA

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47
GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« on: October 24, 2013, 06:23:00 PM »
Your method of using just your intellect to determine what is right and what is wrong, to interpret the Quran and to judge whether a hadith is true or not, is not islamic. To show you the weakness of our minds, just take the philosophers as an example. Didn't all of them use the intellect? Didn't all of their conclusions come after a long time thinking, using logic, etc? The answer is yes of course. But, were their conclusions the same? Absolutely not. Perhaps we have conclusions as much as philosophers. This is the result of using just your intellect and making it independent. You may say that "I make conclusion using the Quran". I said in my earlier post: by using the Quran as the only source, people will come to completely different conclusions. When I took the example of those people making alcohol permissible using arguments from the Quran, you said their arguments were weak, or they didn't have arguments at all. The same way, those verses that you regard as arguments of evolution being true, for me are not even arguments and using them to prove evolution is ridiculous. Do you know that there are people who say homosexuality is allowed in the Quran? In the same way, you may say their arguments are weak, but for them they are strong. So what you are doind by trying to interpret the Quran, is just following your desires. Do you know that the main reason why there are so many sects within Islam, is misinterpretation of the Quran, using "the desire-follower intellect". You said "We have to do a systematic study of hadiths"!? There are people who can't learn propely to pray, because of time, knowledge etc. If everyone would become a self-confessed scholar of Islam, there would be a chaos. Everone will follow what he thinks is true and people will fall in confusion. Whom to follow? I just can't believe our God, the only God, Allah, can let people in such a pain. That's why he said:

 O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. (4:59)

You said that the Prophet is not alive now, so the rule of refering to the Messenger is not applicable to us. You have to understand one thing: when the Quran talks about something, even if it is history, even if it is refering to Prophet Muhammad or his compaions, no matter what, it is refering to us too. The Quran is for all times. So in this case, by refering to the Messeger, it means refering to his Sunnah, to his hadiths. The disagreement which Quran talks about - is not any disagreement by every person who only wants to follow his desires. Example: in Islam, it is not allowed to shake the hand with a women that is permisible for you to marry. I can come out and say: "I disagree with the scholars. I don't accept the hadith that says this thing is a sin, because the Quran says we should be kind. So if someone wants to shake the had with me, I won't refuse." Is this an argument? Again, it might look weak to you, but for the one making it, it is extremely strong. So, can everyone disagree with scholars about whatever he wants? Of course not. What the verse is talking about, is when there is not a consensus about something between scholars, or between a large group of people, or between two schools of thought etc. So our duty then is to refer to the Quran and the Sunnah, and to accept the consensus arrived by the scholars. If there is no consensus, to follow that which we think is more logical (here the logic comes in!). Here is what Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi says in his english tafsir, explaining this verse:

Hence, if a dispute arises about any matter between the Muslims or between the rulers and the ruled, they should turn to the Qur'an and the Sunnah for a decision and they should all submit to the decision. (http://www.englishtafsir.com/Quran/4/index.html#sdfootnote90sym)

Is there disagreement between scholars or people regarding evolution? No! So our duty is to obey those in authority among us.

You said Allah did not promise to protect unquranic hadiths. Again, wrong.

Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian. (15:9)

The word for Quran here is "Dhikra" which includes both the Quran and the insipration given to the Prophet. That's why some of the translators translated it as:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). Yusuf Ali

Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian. Shakir

Here is was Islamic-Awareness says about this:
The promise made by Allah(SWT) in Qur'an 15:9 is obviously fulfilled in the undisputed purity of the Qur'anic text throughout the fourteen centuries since its revelation. However, what is often forgotten by many Muslims is that the divine promise also includes, by necessity, the Sunnah of the Prophet(P), because the Sunnah is the practical example of the implementation of the Qur'anic guidance, the wisdom taught to the Prophet(P) along with the scripture, and neither the Qur'an nor the Sunnah can be understood correctly without the other. (http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Hadith/Ulum/hadsciences.html)

You said the Quran tries to support every belief. The Quran speaks the truth, despite it being wrong for someone or true for someone else. To prove this, I will use your example.

(And he is the one who created the night, daylight, sun and the moon, all swimming in an orbit). (Quran, The Prophets: 33).

Some decades before, the Sun moving was considered a scientific error. Now we know that it also moves (I think around itself, I'm not sure but I have read it somewhere and also Dr. Zakir Naik talks about it). So the Quran is the truth, even if it may not seem to someone. It doesn't neccesarily need to support every belief.

Allah says several times in the Quran tha the majority of people are wrong. But this does not apply when it comes to something that is consensus between muslims.

Who can believe in something so controversial such as evolution, and even reject hadiths, when for 1400 years there were great scholars who didn't sleep at night just studying the religion of Allah who didn't do that. It is interensting how no one of them came to the conclusion that the hadiths should be rejected or that evolution is the way Allah created us. Now, some muslims, using their "intellect" want to prove those great scholars wrong (may Allah have mercy on them and reward them for their great work).

Using your intellect to understand the Quran is wrong, and as I said, it was the main cause for so many sects to be formed. The solution is clear: humbling yourself, obeying the scholars, accepting the hadiths. This is the true Islam, which creates no confusion among people. I would never believe that Allah will leave such important thing unclear to us. I will respond to your arguments for evolution in the next post insha'Allah.

48
GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Re: An advice to mclinkin94
« on: October 22, 2013, 05:53:05 PM »
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Argumentum ad populum. Majority of people are Christians too, doesn't make it true.
I'm talking on level of Muslims. As for the entire humanity, yes, most of them are in loss, as Allah says in the Quran: By time, Indeed, mankind is in loss, Except for those who have believed and done righteous deeds and advised each other to truth and advised each other to patience. (103:1-3)
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Incorrect, the flat Earth myth was dispelled in 2000 B.C.
Read about Flat Earth in Wikipedia.
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No true Scotsman fallacy. He's a Muslim if he calls himself a Muslim. Who are you to decide?
I don't want to offend you, but you don't have an idea about the islamic law. You can't be a Muslim just by calling yourself a Muslim. In fact, who are you to determine that someone can be a Muslim just by calling himself a Muslim? There are rules.
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"according to all the scholars" Argument from authority. There is literally NOT one authority that possesses universal expertise in one field. Humans make mistakes.
Allah says in the Quran: O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. (4:59)
If Allah commands us to refer to scholars, then even if they are wrong we won't be judged or punished because we acted upon the law, so the scholars consensus "possesses universal expertise" acording to the Quran, even if they might be wrong.

49
GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / An advice to mclinkin94
« on: October 22, 2013, 03:37:08 PM »
Brother mclinkin94, as I have seen from your posts, you accept evolution and reject hadiths. My intention is not to look like a smart person, but I have a sincere advice for you.
As for the evolution, I won't bring evidence against it or argue whether it's true or wrong. I want to show you a norm according to which you should judge if something is true or false. Just think for a moment: wouldn't it be more logical to believe that what the majority of muslims believe is true (I'm talkig about important beliefs, not small practical issues)? Wouldn't it be more logical to believe that the most of muslims are in the right path (again, I'm talking about important issues, because I agree that the most of ummah today are not like they should be)? If we read, we will see that the majority of muslims are sunnis (75-90%). If we believe that the most of the ummah are true believers, wouldn't it be more logical to reject evolution? Imagine the muslims from the time of Prophet, peace be upon him, until today being wrong about such an important belief, such as the way of creation. You may say that the early muslims didn't knew science. Yes, it's true. There were muslims, even islamic scholars who believed that Earth was flat etc, but those beliefs are unimportant that even the Quran doesn't talk directly about them. But, the issue of creation is different. You may say that the Quran supports evolution. I won't refute your claims, but do you know that using the Quran as the only source of argumentation can lead to disagreements on the most basic beliefs? Do you know that there are people who say alcohol is allowable in Islam? They also have proofs from the Quran, the difference is they interpret it another way (I have the link, but I don't want to share it). So, what we should do on such important issues is to see what Prophet Muhammad and his companions believed, then what scholars, sunni scholars say. This leads to the second belief, belief in hadiths.
The most illogical belief a muslim can have is to reject the hadiths. Brother, I don't want to insult you, but Islam is unimaginable without the Sunnah. Use the same standard here: wouldn't it be more logical to believe that hadiths were preserved, if muslim scholars for 1400 years believed they were? If we assume that evolution is true and reject hadiths, how can Allah let muslims in such errors for 1400 years?
Please brother, repent to Allah, I'm glad you are a convert, repent to Allah because if you believe in evolution and reject hadiths, according to all of the scholars of Islam, you are not a muslim. Does not Allah command us in the Quran to refer to scholars? If by their agreement, a person who rejects hadiths and believes in evolution is not a muslim, wouldn't it be more logical to stop believing on them? Please brother, this is something serious.

51
GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Recalling some earlier posts
« on: October 20, 2013, 09:45:17 AM »
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GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Re: An advice to brother Osama
« on: August 30, 2013, 04:52:35 PM »
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53
GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / An advice to brother Osama
« on: August 30, 2013, 03:15:14 PM »
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