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Offline H.

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question on 2 quranic verses
« on: August 18, 2017, 11:17:35 AM »
assalamu alaikum,

assalamu alaikum,

i had a question on 2 verses from the quran and their meaning.

verse 1: quran 21:17, sahih international: Had We intended to take a diversion, We could have taken it from [what is] with Us - if [indeed] We were to do so. "
                                 pickthall: If We had wished to find a pastime, We could have found it in Our presence - if We ever did.
                                 لَوْ أَرَدْنَا أَن نَّتَّخِذَ لَهْوًا لَّاتَّخَذْنَاهُ مِن لَّدُنَّا إِن كُنَّا فَاعِلِينَ   
                                 Law aradna an nattakhitha lahwan laittakhathnahu min ladunna in kunna faAAileena

i wanted to ask what does this verse mean, and specificaly what does the word: لَهْوًا or lahwan mean, i see many translations translating it as a pastime. Next i see a video from a christian arab on this verse claiming allah here is saying that if he intended to have a wife he could have taken one from the angels or from the hur, and with the evidences he brought:

muhsin khan: Had We intended to take a pastime (i.e. a wife or a son, etc.), We could surely have taken it from Us, if We were going to do (that).

jalalayn: Had We desired to find some diversion that which provides diversion in the way of a partner or a child We would have found it with Ourselves from among the beautiful-eyed houris or angels were We to do so. But We did not do so thus We never desired it. source:

ibn kathir: وقال الحسن ، وقتادة ، وغيرهما : ( لو أردنا أن نتخذ لهوا ) اللهو : المرأة بلسان أهل اليمن (this means that allah would have taken the women from the people of yemen) source:

qurtubi: قوله تعالى : لو أردنا أن نتخذ لهوا لما اعتقد قوم أن له ولدا قال : لو أردنا أن نتخذ لهوا واللهو المرأة بلغة اليمن ؛ قاله قتادة  (this means that allah would have taken women from yemen) source: tafsir al qurtubi,

al qurtubi also says that the meaning of لَهْوًا or lahwan is a entertainment wife, he said: لهوا - فقال : اللهو الزوجة ؛ وقاله  source tafsir al qurtubi:

since my arabic is very bad and limited i didnt understand the following so if you could translate for me that would be great, qurtubi goes on and says: الجوهري : قوله تعالى : لو أردنا أن نتخذ لهوا قالوا امرأة ، ويقال : ولدا . لاتخذناه من لدنا أي من عندنا لا من عندكم . قال ابن جريج : من أهل السماء لا من أهل الأرض . قيل : أراد الرد على من قال إن الأصنام بنات الله ؛ أي كيف يكون منحوتكم ولدا لنا . وقال ابن قتيبة : الآية رد على النصارى . إن كنا فاعلين قال قتادة ومقاتل وابن جريج والحسن : المعنى ما كنا فاعلين ؛ مثل إن أنت إلا نذير أي ما أنت إلا نذير . وإن بمعنى الجحد وتم الكلام عند قوله : لاتخذناه من لدنا . وقيل : إنه على معنى الشرط ؛ أي إن كنا فاعلين ذلك ولكن لسنا بفاعلين ذلك لاستحالة أن يكون لنا ولد ؛ إذ لو كان ذلك لم نخلق جنة ولا نارا ولا موتا ولا بعثا ولا حسابا . وقيل : لو أردنا أن نتخذ ولدا على طريق التبني لاتخذناه من عندنا من الملائكة . ومال إلى هذا قوم ؛ لأن الإرادة قد تتعلق بالتبني فأما اتخاذ الولد فهو محال ، والإرادة لا تتعلق بالمستحيل ؛ ذكره القشيري

what does this translate to?

so to conclude my question on this verse, is allah really saying that if he would take a wife for entertainment he would have done so from the angels, or the hur, or the people of yemen, why are so many great scholars like ibn katheer, jalalayn, qurtubi, muhsin khan all taking this opinion. And why would allah swt include this in his book, what is the purpose of revelation.

next verse.

verse 2:

quran 69:32, Then into a chain whose length is seventy cubits insert him."
                    ثُمَّ فِي سِلْسِلَةٍ ذَرْعُهَا سَبْعُونَ ذِرَاعًا فَاسْلُكُوهُ
                    Thumma fee silsilatin tharAAuha sabAAoona thiraAAan faoslukoohu

the context of the verse starts around quran 69:25 and is speaking on disbelievers and this is one of the punishments given in 69:32, it says into a chain. What does this mean, so i went and looked at tafasir.

ibn kathir: (Then fasten him) "It will be entered into his buttocks and pulled out of his mouth. Then they will be arranged on this (chain) just like locusts are arranged on a stick that is being roasted.'' Al-`Awfi reported from Ibn `Abbas that he said, "It will be ran into his behind until it is brought out of his two nostrils so he will not be able to stand on his two feet.'

tanwir al miqbas: (And then insert him in a chain) insert the chain in his anus and extract it from his mouth, and what remains of it turn it round his neck (whereof the length) and width (is seventy cubits) cubits of the angel; it is also said this means: 70 fathoms.

the qurtubi tafsir can be found here and since my arabic is bad i request someone to translate it for me,
but i know it says the same thing about the anus, it says: فاسلكوه قال سفيان : بلغنا أنها تدخل في دبره حتى تخرج من فيه . وقاله مقاتل . والمعنى ثم اسلكوا فيه سلسلة . وقيل : تدخل عنقه فيها ثم يجر بها . وجاء في الخبر أنها تدخل من دبره وتخرج من منخريه . وفي خبر آخر : تدخل من فيه وتخرج من دبره ، فينادي أصحابه : هل تعرفوني ؟ فيقولون : لا ، ولكن قد نرى ما بك من الخزي فمن أنت ؟ فينادي أصحابه : أنا فلان بن فلان ، لكل إنسان منكم مثل هذا  and still from my limited arabic and dictionaries i could find out he said the same thing about it entering through the anus

i also have another question with the ibn kathir tafsir, it says: (Then fasten him on a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits!) Ka`b Al-Ahbar said, "Every ring of it will be equal to the entire amount of iron found in this world.

how could this even fit in a human body?

but why would the creator of the universe allah swt, say something like this? a chain through the anus isnt this a little weird

jazakallah khair for the answers

Offline A proud Muslim

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Re: question on 2 quranic verses
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2017, 02:07:51 PM »
Hello there, as I'm being a native Arabic speaker, I decided to look at the tafsir of that particular verse, so here's what I have understood from the tafsir.

If God wanted to have an entertainment, or have a child, he would have taken it from hur, not from women on earth, but if that was a thing that God could do( of course God won't do that), then it wouldn't as we understand it, or see it, not the entertainment that we humans understand.

The word إِن means two things in this verse:

1.That we don't do such a thing, nor we would do that.

2.That it's conditional here. It simply means that if we would ever do such a thing, then it would from hur, but of course God wouldn't such a thing.

Conditional in Arabic isn't necessary something that can happen. Take this for example:

The prophet (Peace be upon him) once said that:

"Even if they place the sun in my right-hand, and the moon in my left-hand in return for giving up this matter (Dawah to Islam), I will never stop – until; - either Allah makes it (the religion of Allah) triumph or I die defending it."

Here, it was just expressing an idea, not a actual thing that could happen.

God said this, as a response, to the people who claim that he have a son, or have a wife, etc. You these obvious myths, right?

Hope this helped.

Take care,
A proud muslim


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