Author Topic: Help: Rebuttal needed: Explanation of Quran 4:136  (Read 27687 times)

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Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Help: Rebuttal needed: Explanation of Quran 4:136
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2013, 09:48:32 PM »
Can anyone also explain verse 2:113 where it says:

(The Noble Qur'an, 2:113) The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.

^Does this mean that both their books are good and uncorrupted?

Offline Egyptian

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Re: Help: Rebuttal needed: Explanation of Quran 4:136
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2013, 01:16:42 PM »
it still raises a question to the Christian that thinks this verse is a contradiction. And that question is "why would Allah make you believe in something that he recognized is corrupted, isn't this a contradiction in the Quran?"


I don't think it is a contradiction .....



First:


2:285 The Messenger believes in what has been sent down to him from Lord, and [so do] believers; everyone believes in God and His angels, His books and His messengers. We do not differentiate between any His messengers.


The noble verse described the muslims as the ones who believed in God and His angels, His books and His messengers.

but are the prophets before Mohamed still alive in persons?  no.

it means we believe in them as they WERE prophets ,and it is not conditional that they must be alive in order to believe in them.....

Second: not only is the case of the prophets but the case of the scripture itself, it is not conditional in order to believe in a revelation ,that it must be present fully as it was originally revealed ,eg;

Holy Quran: SAY: "We believe in God and what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants, and what was given Moses and Jesus, and what was given the [other] prophets by their Lord.


what was sent down to Abraham?

So remind, if the reminder should benefit;He who fears [Allah] will be reminded.But the wretched one will avoid it -[He] who will [enter and] burn in the greatest Fire,Neither dying therein nor living.
He has certainly succeeded who purifies himself,And mentions the name of his Lord and prays.
But you prefer the worldly life,While the Hereafter is better and more enduring.Indeed, this is in the former scriptures,The scriptures of Abraham and Moses.
 Qur'an 87 (Al-A'laa), ayat 9-19


no scrolls of Abraham survive till today ,yet the Quran described the muslims as they already believed in that scroll.......   so how that could be?!


the answer is simple, the quran has the core of the teachings of the previous revealed books, it means if you already believed in the quran ,you automatically believed in the previous scriptures as originally revealed ....



Can anyone also explain verse 2:113 where it says:

(The Noble Qur'an, 2:113) The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.

^Does this mean that both their books are good and uncorrupted?

The verse means ,that both the Jews and the christians each read their scriptures and each infer that the other have no ground to stand on.  .


Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Help: Rebuttal needed: Explanation of Quran 4:136
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2013, 02:04:28 PM »
it still raises a question to the Christian that thinks this verse is a contradiction. And that question is "why would Allah make you believe in something that he recognized is corrupted, isn't this a contradiction in the Quran?"


I don't think it is a contradiction .....



First:


2:285 The Messenger believes in what has been sent down to him from Lord, and [so do] believers; everyone believes in God and His angels, His books and His messengers. We do not differentiate between any His messengers.


The noble verse described the muslims as the ones who believed in God and His angels, His books and His messengers.

but are the prophets before Mohamed still alive in persons?  no.

it means we believe in them as they WERE prophets ,and it is not conditional that they must be alive in order to believe in them.....

Second: not only is the case of the prophets but the case of the scripture itself, it is not conditional in order to believe in a revelation ,that it must be present fully as it was originally revealed ,eg;

Holy Quran: SAY: "We believe in God and what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants, and what was given Moses and Jesus, and what was given the [other] prophets by their Lord.


what was sent down to Abraham?

So remind, if the reminder should benefit;He who fears [Allah] will be reminded.But the wretched one will avoid it -[He] who will [enter and] burn in the greatest Fire,Neither dying therein nor living.
He has certainly succeeded who purifies himself,And mentions the name of his Lord and prays.
But you prefer the worldly life,While the Hereafter is better and more enduring.Indeed, this is in the former scriptures,The scriptures of Abraham and Moses.
 Qur'an 87 (Al-A'laa), ayat 9-19


no scrolls of Abraham survive till today ,yet the Quran described the muslims as they already believed in that scroll.......   so how that could be?!


the answer is simple, the quran has the core of the teachings of the previous revealed books, it means if you already believed in the quran ,you automatically believed in the previous scriptures as originally revealed ....



Can anyone also explain verse 2:113 where it says:

(The Noble Qur'an, 2:113) The Jews say: "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say: "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they (Profess to) study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment.

^Does this mean that both their books are good and uncorrupted?

The verse means ,that both the Jews and the christians each read their scriptures and each infer that the other have no ground to stand on.  .

Thank you very much brother egyptian again :). May Allah reward you, I still have a few other questions, but I'll ask then later :)

You have cleared up a lot in this post!! Thank you! Alhamdulilah!

The statement that cleared it all up is:

"By believing in the Quran, you automatically believe in the previous (un-corrupted) scriptures"

^this clears up everything. THANK YOU SO MUCH EGYPTIAN!
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 06:59:12 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Help: Rebuttal needed: Explanation of Quran 4:136
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2013, 01:39:18 PM »
I have another question:

Quran 5:68 :

"Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people."

Can I get an explanation of what this verse is saying and how it doesn't contradict the other verses of the Quran that say the Torah/Gospel is corrupt.

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Help: Rebuttal needed: Explanation of Quran 4:136
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2013, 02:45:21 PM »
It seems like there is a lot of verses in the Quran that speak highly of the Torah/Gospel. One can easily say the Quran supports those books to be divine and the word of God.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2013, 03:23:18 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline Egyptian

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Re: Help: Rebuttal needed: Explanation of Quran 4:136
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2013, 02:13:11 PM »

Quran 5:68 :
"Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people." Can I get an explanation of what this verse is saying

The verse says:

1- O People of the Scripture "you Jews and christians"

2- you are standing on nothing "your beliefs in vain"

3- until you uphold the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.


what Torah? "the answer in previous post"

what "injeel"? the answer in previous post.

what has been revealed to you from your Lord? the holy Quran.


Even muslims are required to do so:

Holy Quran: SAY: "We(muslims) believe in God and what has been sent down to us(the holy Quran.), and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants, and what was given Moses(Torah) and Jesus(Injeel), and what was given the [other] prophets by their Lord.

peace

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Help: Rebuttal needed: Explanation of Quran 4:136
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2013, 09:45:34 PM »

Quran 5:68 :
"Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people." Can I get an explanation of what this verse is saying

The verse says:

1- O People of the Scripture "you Jews and christians"

2- you are standing on nothing "your beliefs in vain"

3- until you uphold the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord.


what Torah? "the answer in previous post"

what "injeel"? the answer in previous post.

what has been revealed to you from your Lord? the holy Quran.


Even muslims are required to do so:

Holy Quran: SAY: "We(muslims) believe in God and what has been sent down to us(the holy Quran.), and what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and their descendants, and what was given Moses(Torah) and Jesus(Injeel), and what was given the [other] prophets by their Lord.

peace

Thanks again brother :), really helpful information!

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Help: Rebuttal needed: Explanation of Quran 4:136
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2013, 11:32:45 PM »
Bump!

If the Quran says the bible is corrupted then please explain these verses:

Quran 5:43 But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah ? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers.

^Isn't Allah saying the Torah is to be followed?

Quran 5:47 And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.


^Why let the people of the Gospel judge a corrupted book?

Brothers, please explain.


Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Re: Help: Rebuttal needed: Explanation of Quran 4:136
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2013, 07:50:44 AM »
Assalamualykum.

 Brother, the verses are not asking the people of  Muhammad's (pbuh) Ummah to follow Torah and Injeel, rather through these verses Allah is saying that the people of prophet Isa's time and prophet Musa's time were asked to follow Injeel and Torah respectively.

 Allah said:

 ]"Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers."(5:44)
 

 In the above verse Allah is saying "...in which was guidance and light..."So it is in past tense. People at Musa's time were commanded by Allah to follow the Torah precisely without corrupting it. But they failed.


Again Allah says:

 
"And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous."(5:46)
 

 Again Allah says "....in which was guidance and light..."It's also in the past tense. Here Allah is saying that all laws of Torah were included in the Injeel as Torah was corrupted by then was invalidated. Allah commanded the people of Isa's time to follow the Injeel strictly and keep it corruption free. But unfortunately they also failed.

Allah again says:

 "And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ."(5:48)
 

 In the above verse Allah is talking about His final revelation which is our Quran. And Allah is saying, the laws and regulations of Torah and Injeel has been perfectly in His last heavenly book, "THE QURAN".

 Brother Allah didn't take the responsibility of preserving Torah and Injeel. It was the responsibility of the nations to whom these books were revealed to preserve their books. It was a test. But they failed.

 But Allah Himself took the responsibility to preserve the Quran that's why still it's uncorrupted.

 One suggestion: Brother, if you have any confusion about any ayah in the Quran, first read the preceding ayahs and then the following ayahs. This way you might get some ideas about the ayah you are trying to understand.

Allah know the best and may Allah forgive me if I have misinterpreted anything.

Take Care.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 07:59:35 AM by FARHAN_UDDIN »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Help: Rebuttal needed: Explanation of Quran 4:136
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2013, 02:44:38 PM »
Thank you brothers! You guys defeated that perfectly and this article is also perfect:

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/refuting_the_argument_regarding_the_qur_an_ordering_the_jews_and_christians_to_judge_by_their_scriptures

If I get any more questions, I will ask here.   :)

Offline Dr Tazeen

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Re: Help: Rebuttal needed: Explanation of Quran 4:136
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2015, 03:04:38 PM »
We have to believe in their "revelation by Allah".

They were once revealed by Allah,but then they were corrupted.It does not mean that we have to follow these Books.


 

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