Author Topic: One or United  (Read 8474 times)

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Offline Sh Truthseaker

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One or United
« on: May 05, 2015, 10:07:24 AM »
Dear Brothers,
  When I said to my christian friend about the verse "Hear O Israel,the Lord your God is one" , he said that when Dr Zakir Naik told that, a christian pastor told : the hebrew word used here is 'echad' , which means 'united' ,and not 'one' .Is it right?Isn't there any verse that says 'one' and not 'united'?

  I hope you willhelp me.

-A Muslim Student

Offline submit

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Re: One or United
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2015, 06:12:34 AM »
echad is singular and countable one.

one good example is Genesis 2:23-24

The man said, “This is now bone of my bones    and flesh of my flesh;she shall be called ‘woman,’    for she was taken out of man.” (23)
That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh. (24)

Woman was from a singular man, the man existed as one countable man not a union or unification.  When a woman destined to meet a man, they become singular and countable as one  as how  man exist in the beginning, singularly. It returns to the original state of one man.

Christians  have three distinct Gods and they claim that the three Gods is echad?? This means they are saying their 3 Gods do not exist in the beginning. For there is another version of original state of God in the beginning. Which contradict their whole belief about multiple Gods as mentioned in Greek book ( John 1:1 )

~~
Another easy way to refute the united echad logic of three Gods. You can see that when God speaks God uses I/My/We/Our. Nowhere can you find the verse indicating God as They/Them/Theirs but rather He/His. This just made it clear that God is singular and unique.

So the Christians will have to ponder why their three Gods do not want to be referred as They/Them/Theirs. Afterall the so called three Gods have use words like Us/Our/We. What stops them from being referred as They/Them/Theirs in those Israelite scriptures.

Self reference in plural manner as Us/We/Our. That is common and understood for millenias.

Offline Tahmeed

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Re: One or United
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2015, 01:28:41 PM »
Assalamu alaikum dear brothers,

I have a completely aramaic old testament and an english transliteration of the hebrew tanakh on my computer. Both says the word is 'ehad' not 'echad', both in genesis 2:23-24 and deuteronomy 6:5 (Listen O Israel...). And you can try any aramaic lexicon and see that 'EHD' (Alef, Het, Dalet) means 'One'.

Transliteration of gen 2:24>

a'l-ken ya'azab-iysh et-abiyv veEt-immo vedabaq beisto vehayu lebasar ehad

Transliteration of deu 6:5>

shema' yisrae YHWH/adonay eloheynu YHWH/adonay ehad

(My transliteration says ADONAY and the complete aramaic says YHWH)

But both agrees that the word is EHD, not 'echad'. I used google translator to find the hebrew for 'united', here is the result- https://translate.google.com/m/translate?hl=en#en/iw/united . There is no word as 'echad'. The introduction of the aramaic OT says that it's text is original so I think it is reliable. I didn't download it myself but took it from Abu Abdullah here, my classmate and closest friend. The book though gives a link from where it can be downloaded.

http://www.moses.uklinux.net/pdf/bible/

And the transliteration I downloaded from here, a christian site:

http://www.whoisthemessiah.org/tanakh/download.htm

Christians will do anything to prove their false doctrine of trinity but their bible itself cancels such claim.

Jesus prayed to the Father: ...And this is eternal life, that they may believe in You, the Only True God, and in Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (John 17:3)

But still, someone should further researh on the original text and see.

And bro Truthseeker, what did Zakir Naik answer?

Peace...
Tahmeed
A Muslim student as well...:)
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 08:30:51 PM by Tahmeed »

Offline submit

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Re: One or United
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2015, 09:27:31 AM »
they are the same, aleph chet/het dalet
European/Ashkenzi Jews cant pronounce het ح but pronounce it as chet خ although they know its het. youtube.com/watch?v=WTGH6XL9T6E

Offline Tahmeed

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Re: One or United
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2015, 11:01:48 AM »
Thanks brother submit,

If u download the transliteration from the site whoisthemessiah, u will see in the beginning of the , 'USING THE PRONUNCIATION SYSTEM BY MOST SCHOLARLY PUBLICATIONS'. And the book says it's pronunciated as 'Ehad'. But does 'echat' really mean 'united'? Please give me a link for a good aramaic dictionary.
JajakAllahu khair
Tahmeed

Offline Sh Truthseaker

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Re: One or United
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2015, 05:49:07 AM »
ThanQ very much,Brother Tahmeed.

Offline Sh Truthseaker

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Re: One or United
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2015, 10:10:59 AM »
السلام عليكم
 Brothers,
   I want clarification about the word used in these verses:

 1.  Mark 12:29    "Here, O Israel:  The Lord our God is one Lord."

 2.   1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one   Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."
   
3.      John 1:18  "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the FATHER'S side, has made HIM known."

4.      Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!"

5.      Romans 3:30  "since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith."

6.    1 Corinthians 8:4 "So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that "An idol is nothing at all in the world" and that "There is no God but one." "

7.   Ephesians 4:6  "one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

8.  Zechariah 14:9 "The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name."

 Really 'one' or 'united'?Please help

Offline Tahmeed

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Re: One or United
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2015, 07:32:18 AM »
Assalamu alaikum dear brother Sh Truthseaker,

I can help with the Hebrew OT only, because I don’t study Greek NT, though I will InshaAllah in the future!

The sentence in Mark 12:29 is actually same as Deuteronomy 6:4, because Jesus simply quoted that verse from the OT here. Read-

(Mark 12:28) One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" (Mark 12:29) Jesus answered, "The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' [Bible NRSV]
 
So the original form of this verse is in Deuteronomy 6:4, as that records the first commandment. So I don’t care whatever the Greek says :P. And the Aramaic form is-

(Deuteronomy 6:4) s^ema (listen) yisrael adonay (YHWH) eloheynu adonay (YHWH) ehad (one).

Ehad=One, not ‘United’.

Do you know an interesting thing about this? The (almost) same incident is depicted in Matthew 22:34-40, but there Jesus doesn’t say, ‘Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one’, just the other things! See how they removed this part to support their bloody trinity!

Now, the Hebrew form of Zechariah 14:9-

(Zechariah 14:9) vehayah adonay (YHWH) lemelek (king) al-kal-ha^ares bayyom hahu yihyeh adonay (YHWH) ehad (one) usemo ehad (one).

Again, Ehad=One, not ‘United’.

So we tried to solve number 1, 4 and 8. Though I can’t tell you the Greek for the other ones, I will try to talk about some of them :)

2) 1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."

First, the verse says there is only one God and that is the Father. The word ‘one’ comes twice. If the word is actually ‘united’, then it would be ridiculous, because there is only one Father, only one Jesus- but together with the Holy Spirit the make one God, according to the doctrine of Trinity. (which is ridiculous anyway!) Three different others don’t make up a united Father (God forbid)! So I don’t think here ‘one’ is ‘united’.

Secondly’ the verse talks about the Father and Christ……separately. One God who is Father and one lord who is Christ (in earlier times people used to call their masters, kings or leaders- ‘Lord’. See Sura Yusuf 12:42-43 for example. So here lord is not God. Also, Christ was called ‘Rabbi’ [teacher], and in Arabic ‘Rabb’ means ‘lord’. As Arabic and Hebrew are sister languages, this may also be possible…..) So it is further proof that Father and Christ aren’t part of the same God.

7) Ephesians 4:6 "One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

This verse also proves that the Father is the one true God, and the Father is only one person, so ‘united’ here will sound weird too!

I don’t know the Greek, but a similar verse exists in the OT which says Father is ‘Ehad’, one.

Malachi 2:10 halo ab (Father) EHAD lekullanu halo el (God) EHAD bera^anu maddua nibgad iys beahiyv lehallel beriyt aboteynu (fathers).

Ehad=One, not ‘United’.

The translation you gave for John 1:18 is

3) John 1:18 "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the FATHER'S side, has made HIM known."

I think ‘who’ refers to Jesus Christ here, whom the one and only God has made known. However, is the translation from NIV bible? ‘Cause you should really check out NKJV!

(NKJV John 1:18) No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared him. (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

You see the difference?!! Monotheism turns to shirk! And that’s how the bible gets corrupted!

As for Roman 3:30 and 1 Corinthians 8:4, we have to check the Greek, to see whether ‘one’ or ‘united’, but notice one thing in 1Cor 8:4….. the phrase ‘There is no God but one’ is precisely ‘Laa ilaha illa Allah’ in Arabic!

And bro, you still didn't say what Zakir Naik answered!!

I guess it helps InshaAllah,
Your brother in Islam,
Tahmeed
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 07:35:13 AM by Tahmeed »

Offline Sh Truthseaker

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Re: One or United
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2015, 03:18:32 AM »
And bro, you still didn't say what Zakir Naik answered!!
\

Oh no!Sorry!
Sorry for the late reply,I always forget to ask him.
When I asked him now,he told ,that pastor said it not in his presence.

Offline Sh Truthseaker

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Re: One or United
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2015, 03:23:09 AM »
hey,how to post images here?

Offline Sh Truthseaker

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Re: One or United
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2015, 06:29:00 PM »
Testing an image.

Offline Sh Truthseaker

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Re: One or United
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2015, 06:29:54 PM »
It didn't work.

 

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