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Offline Qualities of Allah

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Abrogation
« on: May 14, 2021, 05:17:32 PM »
Assalamu Alaykum everyone,
I was reading the Quran and when I reached quran 2:240 which says, "Those of you who die leaving widows should bequeath for them a year’s maintenance without forcing them out. But if they choose to leave, you are not accountable for what they reasonably decide for themselves. And Allah is Almighty, All-Wise," guess what happened. The footnote mentioned our enemy, abrogation, was supposed to eat this verse but forgot because this ruling was replaced by 2:234. 2:234 says, "As for those of you who die and leave widows behind, let them observe a waiting period of four months and ten days. When they have reached the end of this period, then you are not accountable for what they decide for themselves in a reasonable manner. And Allah is All-Aware of what you do."

Two different rulings. One says if a husband dies then the will is that wives will be provided for a year. The other one says to observe a waiting period of 4 months and ten days and then do whatever they want. Also for the 2:240 verse, the wife can do whatever she wants whenever but the 2:234 verse says to wait for 4 months and ten. And know most scholars believe that 2:234 abrogated 2:240. But there is supposed to be no abrogations! That is 1 part of this question.

Part 2 Surah A'ala Verses 6-7 say, "We will have you recite ˹the Quran, O  Prophet,˺ so you will not forget ˹any of it˺, unless Allah wills otherwise. He surely knows what is open and what is hidden."Why did it say "unless Allah wills otherwise?" The footnote is saying that this means God will make the Prophet forget abrogated rulings. But there should be no abrogations!

Part 3 This is about 4:15-16, which you claim refer to lesbians and gays. "˹As for˺ those of your women who commit illegal intercourse—call four witnesses from among yourselves. If they testify, confine the offenders to their homes until they die or Allah ordains a ˹different˺ way for them. And the two among you men who commit this sin—discipline them. If they repent and mend their ways, relieve them. Surely Allah is ever Accepting of Repentance, Most Merciful."

"Or Allah ordains a different way for them," this prompted scholars to say that this verse is about man-woman adultery and that this verse was going to be abrogated because Allah will ordain a different way. They believed this verse was abrogated by 24:2, which talks about flogging 100 times the adulters. But there is supposed to be no abrogation, so can you explain why it says "Or Allah ordains a different way for them" and why this verse is actually referring to homosexuals and not man-woman adultery?

Please, please address and answer each part

Jazakumullah Khayran

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Re: Abrogation
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2021, 05:33:18 PM »
Wa Alaikum As'salam,

Abrogation means contradiction.  There is no abrogation in the Glorious Quran.  It was a lie invented by infidels and ignorant.  Here are the Noble Verses in question:

[002:240]  Those of you who die and leave widows should bequeath for their widows a year's maintenance and residence; but if they leave (The residence), there is no blame on you for what they do with themselves, provided it is reasonable. And God is Exalted in Power, Wise.

Before dividing the inheritance, the Widow has the right to remain in her residence for 1 full year with full maintenance financial support from the deceased man's wealth.


[002:234]  If any of you die and leave widows behind, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days: When they have fulfilled their term, there is no blame on you if they dispose of themselves in a just and reasonable manner. And God is well acquainted with what ye do.

Here a widow must wait four lunar months and ten days before she can marry again.  Two different Noble Verses with two different topics and two different rulings.


As to part 2, it is Allah Almighty's Will to have us remember and forget things.  This has nothing to do with the preservation of the Glorious Quran.  The Noble Verse was speaking about Prophet Muhammad learning from Angel Gabriel how to read the Glorious Quran.  The Quran's preservation was primarily the responsibility of Angel Gabriel. 

As to "this prompted scholars to say that this verse is about man-woman adultery".  No it is not limited to man and woman (opposite genders).  The Noble Verses do include and are talking about homosexuals.

Please visit:
https://www.answering-christianity.com/was_muta_immoral.htm#no_abrogation
https://www.answering-christianity.com/abrogation.htm
https://www.answering-christianity.com/homosexuals.htm
https://www.answering-christianity.com/adultery.htm



Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline Qualities of Allah

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Re: Abrogation
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2021, 02:26:08 PM »
For point 1, now I dont understand how this is abrogation anymore. One is about money and the other is about marriage. I just don't understand why muslim scholars say this is an abrogation. So this one is solved.

For point 2, the points are cleared. But I just want to know what you mean by this Verse is talking about Prophet Muhammad learning from Jibreel. But now I understand that this Verse is just signifying Allah's power and has nothing to do with the Quran.

For point 3, however, I don't understand why Allah would say    ​" اَوْ يَجْعَلَ اللهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيْلًا (Or God ordains another way for them)"
​Don't these words sound like Allah will later abrogate this ruling? (Like 24:2)? I mean I believe there is no abrogation in the Quran, and if there is no abrogation in the Quran, this ruling MUST only refer to lesbians because it is a different punishment for straight (man-woman) adultery as 24:2 declares. So please try to describe to me why Allah would say "or God ordains another way for them" if there is no abrogation.

Thank you so much.

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Re: Abrogation
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2021, 04:35:36 PM »
You will not find two who agree on which abrogates which in the Glorious Quran, and on the amount of verses that are abrogated.  Every quack barks his conjecture.  All of those who bark abrogation are either quacks or liars that fabricate lies on the Holy Quran.  There is no abrogation in the Quran.  Period.  It was a lie that was invented by infidels.

As to Prophet Muhammad forgetting Noble Verses, that is normal for a flesh and blood human being.  The Glorious Quran is made of 6236 Noble Verses.  Prophet Muhammad didn't have all of them memorized.  The preservation of the Quran was thorough and complete by the companions and family of the Prophet.  Please visit the following link to see the Glorious Quran's STUNNING Numerical and Scientific Miracles:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

As to ​" اَوْ يَجْعَلَ اللهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيْلًا , this is referring to the women (lesbians or not) who commit lewdness.  Lewdness includes adultery.  It is broader.  Here if they repent (not go back to it again after being found guilty and convicted), then they are to be set free ​" اَوْ يَجْعَلَ اللهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيْلًا .  Otherwise, they are to be locked up till death comes upon them.  Visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/homosexuals.htm


Again, there is no abrogation.  The adultery punishment is specific between a man and a woman, and it is limited to SEXUAL INTERCOURSE.  Otherwise it would be LAMAM (like kissing and touching before actual sex), which is a lesser crime than ZINA (sexual intercourse).  This LAMAM falls under lewdness.  In a nutshell, there are levels and degrees to sexual sinning.  They're not all the same.



Women's Temptations and Corruption:

I personally believe that Allah Almighty has placed this Law of locking them up till death if they're caught again is to prevent women from prostituting and spreading evil in the lands.  Women are forbidden from dressing sexy and showing off their curves and temptations.  Islam stops them at their tracks from defiling the land with their filth.  A woman is expected to be pious, chaste and the pinnacle of chastity and modesty.  Prostitutes and filthy temptations have no place in Muslim society.

Most Western women and men have great respect towards Muslim women, who dress modest and are chaste.  A woman in the West is nothing but a walking vagina, breasts and butt.  Like one guy once said, put a pillow on her face and "f her"; meaning who gives a two cents rats ass about how she feels and what she has to say.

A Muslim woman is truly dignified and is treated with best dignity and respect, and she is the best woman to produce and raise societies, especially in raising daughters.  Non-Muslim women are treated like harlots, and are viewed as harlots, which are (again) nothing but walking sexual objects to test drive.  The overwhelming majority of them have been test driven by many men, each.  Such quality is garbage.


Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline Qualities of Allah

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Re: Abrogation
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2021, 05:20:08 PM »
Everything has been answered but now I have one question. I thought Muhammad memorized the whole quran, wasn't he a hafiz?

Offline Qualities of Allah

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Re: Abrogation
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2021, 05:25:00 PM »
Also wow you definitely hate Wstern women a lot, lol. And who was that one guy who said that, you knew him?

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Re: Abrogation
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2021, 05:26:30 PM »
Maybe brother.  There is no certain documentation about this.  Again, memorizing 6236 Noble Verses is not easy.  Maybe the Prophet, peace be upon him, actually did.  But in the end, it wouldn't at all compromise the preservation of the Holy Quran, because it was thoroughly documented and preserved by the community, and not just by one person.  Plus the Quran is read in parts and systematically in our daily Prayers from beginning to end, and is read whole during the Month of Ramadan.  So there were many who memorized it and documented it.

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Re: Abrogation
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2021, 05:28:10 PM »
Also wow you definitely hate Wstern women a lot, lol. And who was that one guy who said that, you knew him?

A guy at work.  I don't hate anyone.  I wish them all Divine Guidance from Allah Almighty.  But I definitely do not want my daughter to associate with anyone of them.  Me and my wife are in total agreement on this.  No non-Muslim female friend, and certainly no male friend at all (Muslim or none).

Offline Qualities of Allah

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Re: Abrogation
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2021, 05:31:26 PM »
Jazakallah Khayran for answering the questions. I guess you have to send your daughter to Islamic schools. And you have to be really careful.

Offline Qualities of Allah

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Re: Abrogation
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2021, 08:43:03 PM »
I got more questions related to this topic. I was looking at Surah Ahzab and 2 verses seemed outdated. Also one of the 2 verses abrogated the other one it seems. The verses are 33:50 and 33:52. 33:50 reads as follows:

"Prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives whose bride gift you have paid, and any slaves God has assigned to you through war, and the daughters of your uncles and aunts on your father’s and mother’s sides, who migrated with you. Also any believing woman who has offered herself to the Prophet and whom the Prophet wishes to wed- this is only for you [Prophet] and not the rest of the believers: We know exactly what We have made obligatory for them concerning their wives and slave-girls- so you should not be blamed: God is most forgiving, most merciful."

As you can see, this verse first of all IS ONLY ADDRESSED TO THE PROPHET. Only he can marry women who offer themselves to him (more than 4). So one question can already be made without reading the other Verse, "Why is this Verse in the Quran? This Verse doesn't apply to us?"

Ok moving on to 33:52:

"You [Prophet] are not permitted to take any further wives, nor to exchange the wives you have for others, even if these attract you with their beauty. But this does not apply to your slave-girls: God is watchful over all."

Here is the main question: "Why did Allah 2 verses before tell the Prophet that he can marry anyone who proposes to him and now He is saying that the Prophet cannot marry anyone else (except slaves)? This clearly sounds like abrogation.

Please address these 2 questions. (Note that as I see more things that seem to be abrogation I will ask them in this topic over time. In other words, questions will be added here over periods of time.)
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 10:06:54 PM by QuranSearchCom »

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Re: Abrogation
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2021, 08:53:40 AM »
Sure.  Let us look at the Noble Verses in question:

[033:050]  O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom God has assigned to thee; and daughters of thy paternal uncles and aunts, and daughters of thy maternal uncles and aunts, who migrated (from Makka) with thee; and any a believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her;- this only for thee, and not for the Believers (at large); We know what We have appointed for them as to their wives and the captives whom their right hands possess;- in order that there should be no difficulty for thee. And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[033:051]  Thou mayest defer (the turn of) any of them that thou pleasest, and thou mayest receive any thou pleasest: and there is no blame on thee if thou invite one whose (turn) thou hadst set aside. This were nigher to the cooling of their eyes, the prevention of their grief, and their satisfaction - that of all of them - with that which thou hast to give them: and God knows (all) that is in your hearts: and God is All-Knowing, Most Forbearing.

[033:052]  It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens): and God doth watch over all things.



Two things we must keep in mind:

1-  The Glorious Quran's Verses came down in different times.  The ordering of the Noble Verses was done by Angel Gabriel and Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon them.  The Angel would instruct the Prophet where the new Noble Verse or verses be placed.

2-  Prophets had certain privileges.  Nothing contradicting to Allah Almighty's Moral Code, but Prophets had privileges.  Even in the Jewish religion, Prophets and priests had privileges, such as they are forbidden from marrying non-virgin Jewish women and any non-Jewish woman:

https://www.answering-christianity.com/muhammads_share.htm


So regarding Noble Verse 33:50, the women that were allowed for the Prophet were really nothing different from those allowed for Muslim men.  As to "...any believing woman who has offered herself to the Prophet and whom the Prophet wishes to wed....", actually there is a mistranslation here.  The Noble Verse in Arabic says "...and a believing woman who has...."  There is no ANY.  Married women are forbidden to marry other men, and the Noble Verse does not give an absolute any.  The woman must be single, and not a MUHSANAH (under another man).


Regarding Noble Verse 33:52, it is a Law that was given to Prophet Muhammad to forbid him from:

1-  Marrying or replacing women with other women.  This is because the sacredness of marriage and its Solemn Covenant was made clear in the Glorious Quran.

2-  The Prophet at the time of limiting polygamy to up to four wives only, he had more than four wives at the time.  So Allah Almighty put a freeze on the Prophet from further marrying any woman.

3-  This Noble Verse also prevents any further taking advantage or abuse of the sacredness of marriage by the Prophet.  Divorce is allowed but it is highly detestable by Allah Almighty, and being careless with it will bring sin upon you:

‏2:236 لاجناح عليكم ان طلقتم النساء مالم تمسوهن او تفرضوا لهن فريضة ومتعوهن على الموسع قدره وعلى المقتر قدره متاعا بالمعروف حقا على المحسنين

"You bear no sin if you divorce your wives AS LONG AS YOU HAVE NOT (ma-lam مالم) had (a sexual) contact (with them), and before settling (the amount of) the nuptial premium (for them). Yet, you should make provisions for them (even then); the affluent in keeping with his means, and the poor according to what he can afford. A fair provision is an obligation upon the pious.  (The Noble Quran, 2:236)"


This Noble Verse is for all Muslim men and it is speaking in the plural.  The only time you're guaranteed to not bring sin upon you via divorce is if you divorce before the first sexual intercourse, i.e., before consummating the marriage.  This is the period where the couple would be engaged and are allowed to start going out and decide if they're good match to each other or not.  So to prevent the Prophet from abusing divorce, Allah Almighty simply prohibited him from marrying again.  The Prophet was still allowed to divorce any wife.  This was never forbidden for him.


Please visit: https://www.answering-christianity.com/was_muta_immoral.htm



No abrogation at all.  Just different Laws for different situations.  For all Muslim men, marriage and divorce are allowed for as long as they live.  For the Prophet, marriage had an expiration date on it.  The day came when he was forbidden from marrying again.


Take care,
Osama Abdallah



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Re: Abrogation
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2021, 12:40:48 PM »
I'm sorry because I probably missed your point. You said that marriage had an expiration date for the Prophet. But first he could marry single believing women (not any woman, I got that part) and later marriage expired for him where he cannot marry new women. Doesn't this still mean that the marriage expiration verse ABROGATED the Verse where the Prophet could marry single believing women who offered themselves to him?

Also, why are these verses that are ONLY talking to the Prophet even here? Now the Prophet is gone so why are these verses still important? I get that prophets have privileges over common men but if Allah wanted to tell the Prophet rules that only apply to him, why did He not reveal that in another way like through a dream of the Prophet or something? Why did He reveal it in a universal Quran when he knew that after the Prophet is gone, these rules won't apply to anyone anymore?

Please answer the two questions and thank you so much.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2021, 10:07:24 PM by QuranSearchCom »

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Re: Abrogation
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2021, 08:17:28 PM »
An abrogation is when a general Law is permanently nullified by another.  This does not exist in the Glorious Quran.  Christianity's prohibition of polygamy, for example, would qualify as an abrogation in their lala world of buffoonery, even though Jesus never forbade it:

www.answering-christianity.com/jesus_problematic_hyperboles.htm

Because their religion is a religion of lies, it is filled with lies on GOD Almighty, and it has turned sinful into lawful and lawful into sinful.


If the Prophet was in a position where any further marriage became forbidden for him because he had more than four wives at the time Allah Almighty set that limit, then this is not an abrogation.  The Prophet's situation here is not a general Law for all Muslims and for all times and places.  The Law about a woman offering herself to the Prophet can still be applied for slave women.  Believing slaves owned by Muslims did exist back then.  She could still be his female harem.  But then again, one of Islam's Grand Goals is to end all slavery:

[090:012] And what will make you comprehend what the uphill road is?
[090:013] (It is) the setting free of a slave,


So one of the monumental tasks upon the Muslims is to end all forms of slavery.  Yet, the Glorious Quran also allows enslaving, buying slaves, selling slaves, having harems (female slaves).  So is this a contradiction?  No.  Is this an abrogation (90:12-13 abrogating all other verses or vise versa)?  No.  All Noble Verses concerning slaves and slavery still stand TILL THIS DAY!  All 6236 Noble Verses that make up the entire Glorious Quran still stand today and will always stand till the Day of Judgment.  We have no abrogation here.  The Muslim State and Court and people must be mindful that Allah Almighty has set high and monumental goals in the Glorious Quran.  In the interim of things, however, the slavery Noble Verses could be activated and applied due to battles that may occur or deals and/or transactions.  But the ultimate goal must be to end all forms of slavery in all Muslim lands.

As to why the Noble Verses that are limited to the Prophet exist in the Glorious Quran, this belongs to Allah Almighty.  No one can really answer this one.  I can however remind you that the Glorious Quran's Text and number of verses is STUNNINGLY miraculous:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links


Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline Wahrani

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Re: Abrogation
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2021, 02:45:38 PM »
I would like to make my small contribution to this discussion:

According to this concept, Repeals in the Qu’ran (Al-Nasekh and Al-Mansoukh), it is said that some verses of the Qu’ran are repealed and invalidated by other verses! The verse that is abrogating is called Al-Nasekh, while the repealed verse is called Al-Mansoukh.

Although the concept was originally invented by a few scholars as a consequence of their poor understanding of the Qu’ran, it has been widely exploited by enemy Quran writers to tarnish the perfection and divinity of the book.
As stated, the concept of abrogation implies that some Quranic verses have been abrogated by other verses.
On the other hand, writers who are enemies of Islam claim that these verses, and others that they put forward, are in fact contradictions within the Qu’ran.
So, they use these examples to refute the divinity of the Qu’ran.
It should be noted that the examples used by Muslim scholars as "abrogated verses" are not always the verses used by non-Muslim writers; they then speak of "contradictions in the Qur’an ".
Although it can be said that the common point between these two groups is their poor understanding of the Qur'an, it should also be added that in the case of non-Muslim writers, and particularly those who do not speak Arabic, a large number of their assertions in favor of contradictions is only the product of their use of imprecise and misleading translations of the Qur'an.
Both of these claims can be refuted in the light of the Qu’ran. They can be shown to be nothing more than a weak understanding of the Book.

Alif, Lâm, Ra. A Scripture whose signs have been confirmed, and then detailed, from a knowledgeable Sage. Qu’ran, 11: 1

There is for them a good announcement in the life here below as well as in the ultimate life. - There will be no change in the words of Allah -. This is the huge success! Qu’ran, 10:64

These Quranic verses clearly state that God's words are perfect and cannot be abrogated, yet some have fabricated the biggest lie about the Qu’ran, claiming that some verses abrogate others. They base their words on a misinterpretation of this verse:
First verse, 2: 106
If We abrogate (“nansakh”) any Ayah or cause it to be forgotten, We bring a better one, or a similar one. Don't you know that Allah is Omnipotent? Quran, 2: 106

Interpreters claim that this verse confirms that some verses invalidate others.
They interpret the word "ayah" to mean a verse in the Qur'an; and they interpret the word "nansakh" to mean "to abrogate".
But does this word, as used in the Quran, really mean to abrogate?
The word "Ayah", as used in many verses of the Quran, can have four different meanings:

It can mean a miracle from God:
And indeed, We gave Moses nine obvious Ayahs (miracles). (…) Quran, 17: 101
It can also mean an example for people:
And the people of Noah, when they denied the messengers, We drowned them and made an example (Ayah) to the people. (…) Quran, 25:37
The word "Ayah" can also mean sign:
"O my Lord, said (Zechariah), grant me a sign (Ayah)". “Your sign (Ayah), says (Allah,) will be that you will not be able to talk to people for three nights while being well. Quran, 19:10
And finally, it can denote a verse from the Quran:
(Here is) a blessed Book which We have sent down to you, that they may meditate on its verses (Ayat) and those who are gifted with intelligence may reflect! Quran, 38:29
If we now consider verse 106 of sura 2, one can easily verify that the word "Ayah" cannot refer here to a verse from the Quran. It can correspond to other meanings (miracle, example or sign), but not to a Quranic verse.

Here's why :
1) The words "may We make him forget" cannot be applied to a verse from the Quran.
How could a verse from the Quran be forgotten?
Because even if the verse is invalidated by others (as falsely claimed by the interpreters), it will still be part of the Quran and therefore cannot be forgotten.

2) The words "We bring a similar one" would be meaningless if the word "Ayah" meant a Koranic verse, simply because it would be absurd for God to invalidate a verse and replace it with an identical one!
3) If the word “Ayah” in verse 106 means a miracle, example or sign, then all the words in the verse have a perfect meaning. The words "may We make him forget" can be applied to all three meanings, and this is what happens with the passage of time. The miracles of Moses and Jesus have been forgotten. We only believe in them because they are mentioned in the Quran.

Likewise, the words "We bring a better, or the like" accord with the miracles of God.
God replaces a miracle with its like or one that is greater. Consider the following verse:
We actually sent Moses with Our miracles (Ayah), to Pharaoh and his notables. He said, "I am the Messenger of the Lord of the universe." Then when he came to them with Our miracles (Ayah), they laughed. Each miracle (Ayah) We showed them was more convincing than its previous one. And We seized them with the chastisement, perhaps they will return (to Us). Quran, 43: 46-48

The word "nansakh" used in 2: 106 comes from the verb "Nasakha". It is said that this word means to repeal.
But a careful study of all the Quranic verses using this word shows that it actually has the opposite meaning. It means to record or put in writing.
When God means "substitute", the word used is “Baddala”, as in 16: 101.
When We replace ("baddalna") one "Ayat" with another - and God knows better what He sends down - they say, "You made it up." But most of them do not know. Quran, 16:10
The replacement in question here can relate to two things:
a) replacing one scripture with another. This first meaning can be validated by the following verse:
And upon you We sent down the Book with the truth, to confirm the Books which were there before it and to prevail over them. (…) Quran, 5:48

Here, the words "prevail over them" confirm that the previous scriptures are replaced by the Qur'an.
b) Replacing one law in one scripture with another in a subsequent scripture. This second meaning is also proven by the Quran, where various things previously prohibited for the People of the Book were made lawful in the Quran.
As an example, we are told in 2: 187 that sexual relations between married couples during the nights of the month of fasting were permitted, whereas they were previously prohibited.
We are also told in 6: 146 that God forbade the Jews to have all animals with one nail; and that the fat of cattle and sheep was prohibited. This has been made lawful in the Quran.
Verse 16:10 is not about substituting one verse for another
The proof of this lies in the same verse, in the words "they say: You made up this"
Because of their ignorance of the Quran, these forgers clearly violated a fundamental truth in the Quran which states that the words of God cannot be abrogated:

And the word of your Lord is fulfilled in all truth and righteousness. No one can change His words. He is the Audient, the Omniscient. Qur'an, 6:11 a.m.

No change in God's words. This is the immense triumph. Quran, 10:64

[url] https://kadertahri.canalblog.com

Offline Qualities of Allah

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Re: Abrogation
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2021, 02:46:06 PM »
So you're saying that the Verse that prohibits marrying women "after this" can apply to people who have 4 wives in modern day am I right? And why Allah talked to only the prophet in the quran is unknown?

Please confirm or fix what I'm saying.

 

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