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MAIN BOARD (You must register to post) => GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS => Topic started by: arman114 on October 10, 2015, 08:25:12 AM
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He/she said that Jesus said whoever marry divorced women while her husband is alive he commit adultery so Muhammad married Zainab while Zaid was still alive so he committed adultery.
Please answer this.
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1- For every nation was sent a Messenger for their guidance. The important matter was the concept of Tawheed, or (belief in the Oneness of Allaah). The secondary matter was Sharee'ah, or religious Law, which kept changing from tribe to tribe and nation to another.
Allaah the Most High alone knows what is good for His creation.
2- There is no direct chain of transmission from Jesus (PBUH) that prove this statement.
Allah knows best.
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in Deuteronomy 24:1-4 a divorced woman can marry other man. And if the the new husband dies, the first husband cannot remmary his ex-wife, nothing about adultery in here.
But the Greek books state that Jesus disagrees with Moses and changed the permission in Deuteronmy 24 as quoted in Greek book Mark 10.
In short the Christians are saying Bible is not entirely words of God due to Deut 24 not a revelation from God.
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in Deuteronomy 24:1-4 a divorced woman can marry other man. And if the the new husband dies, the first husband cannot remmary his ex-wife, nothing about adultery in here.
But the Greek books state that Jesus disagrees with Moses and changed the permission in Deuteronmy 24 as quoted in Greek book Mark 10.
In short the Christians are saying Bible is not entirely words of God due to Deut 24 not a revelation from God.
Moses permitted men to divorce their wives and give them a certificate of divorce because of the hardness of their hearts. They had to have a reason to divorce and that was "ervah"which is uncleanness. This was abused as they would divorce their wives for any reason they saw fit and would claim this to be uncleanness. He permitted the divorce because many husbands would just send their wives away without a certificate to show they were divorced and these women would end up killed because they had no proof for their divorce and would be deemed "adulterous". So, although adultery is not mentioned, it is in their laws and that is why Moses permitted the divorce with a certificate. The husbands also did not want to give a certificate because they would have to give back any money, animals, etc. that the gained by marrying the wife.
When Jesus came and was tested, He reaffirmed what Moses said; He did not contradict Moses. Jesus said you could divorce and remarry in the case of "porneia" in Greek, which means uncleanness.
Remember, Jesus said "He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so." Jesus is discussing God’s will for marriage “from the beginning”. God's original marriage plan, as instituted in Eden, had ideally never changed, though a relaxation of it had been allowed under Moses. But here, Jesus preceded to restore marriage to its original intent.
The divorce mentioned in Deuteronomy 24:1-4 is not a command from God, but was permitted by Moses, as Jesus confirms (Matthew 19:8). Why did Moses permit divorce? Moses perceived that if divorce were not permitted, in many cases, the women would be exposed to great hardships through the cruelty of their husbands (hardness of their hearts). Moses tolerated a relaxation of the strictness of the marriage bond--not as approving of it, but to prevent still greater evils. And therefore if they had not been allowed to put away their wives, when they had conceived a dislike of them, they would have used them cruelly, would have beaten and abused them, and perhaps have murdered them. “But from the beginning it was not so” is repeated, in order to impress upon His audience the temporary character of this Mosaic relaxation. Moses did not direct it, or suffer it, in any such sense as to imply that God approved of it, or that it was right. It was a temporary regulation, suffered for a time on account of the wickedness of men, and in order to prevent the greater evils which that wickedness would otherwise have occasioned. It was a regulation as to the mode of putting away; not to justify that wrong practice, but to lessen, in some measure, its evils.
So Deuteronomy 24:1-4 does not contradict Jesus' teaching on marriage and divorce and Jesus' is teaching what God implemented in the beginning when there was not hardness of hearts from wicked men.
Also, God Himself demonstrated Jesus' teaching by divorcing Israel and giving her a bill of divorcement for the reason of adultery.
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Oops, my scripture made an emoticon, sorry about that. I meant to say: Matthew 19:8
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You interpret it as not in contradiction. Some Christians interpret it as Moses creating some Laws by himself. And Jesus abolish it with his sayings that divorce = adultery.
The divorce mentioned in Deuteronomy 24:1-4 is not a command from God, but was permitted by Moses
Thats is exactly what i wrote in the end, In short the Christians are saying Bible is not entirely words of God due to Deut 24 not a revelation from God.
It is something written by Moses.
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You interpret it as not in contradiction. Some Christians interpret it as Moses creating some Laws by himself. And Jesus abolish it with his sayings that divorce = adultery.
The divorce mentioned in Deuteronomy 24:1-4 is not a command from God, but was permitted by Moses
Thats is exactly what i wrote in the end, In short the Christians are saying Bible is not entirely words of God due to Deut 24 not a revelation from God.
It is something written by Moses.
You said:
in Deuteronomy 24:1-4 a divorced woman can marry other man. And if the the new husband dies, the first husband cannot remmary his ex-wife, nothing about adultery in here.
But the Greek books state that Jesus disagrees with Moses and changed the permission in Deuteronmy 24 as quoted in Greek book Mark 10.
I have demonstrated by my previous comment that Deut. 24 includes adultery as it would be uncleanness. I also showed the Jesus did not disagree with Moses as the reason Moses gave for divorce is the same reason Jesus gave... UNCLEANNESS. It was wicked hard-hearted men who twisted uncleanness to be whatever they wanted it to be.
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You interpret it as not in contradiction. Some Christians interpret it as Moses creating some Laws by himself. And Jesus abolish it with his sayings that divorce = adultery.
The divorce mentioned in Deuteronomy 24:1-4 is not a command from God, but was permitted by Moses
Thats is exactly what i wrote in the end, In short the Christians are saying Bible is not entirely words of God due to Deut 24 not a revelation from God.
It is something written by Moses.
Divorce is not adultery. A Christian can divorce and remain unmarried and it is not adultery to do so. When a divorced Christian remarries, it is adultery if they divorced from their first spouse for any reason except for uncleanness (porneia in Greek) which covers every sexual act with any person who is not your spouse.
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Divorce is not adultery. A Christian can divorce and remain unmarried and it is not adultery to do so. When a divorced Christian remarries, it is adultery if they divorced from their first spouse for any reason except for uncleanness (porneia in Greek) which covers every sexual act with any person who is not your spouse.
Basically, once you get divorced then you cannot get married with someone else, right? Why is this law? What if two people were forced to marry and later they want divorce?
The definition of adultery is to have physical relations with someone who is not your spouse, it is not to marry a divorced women. You cannot call marrying a divorced women adultery if its not.
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Divorce is not adultery. A Christian can divorce and remain unmarried and it is not adultery to do so. When a divorced Christian remarries, it is adultery if they divorced from their first spouse for any reason except for uncleanness (porneia in Greek) which covers every sexual act with any person who is not your spouse.
Basically, once you get divorced then you cannot get married with someone else, right? Why is this law? What if two people were forced to marry and later they want divorce?
The definition of adultery is to have physical relations with someone who is not your spouse, it is not to marry a divorced women. You cannot call marrying a divorced women adultery if its not.
God considers the two to be one flesh. If you divorce a woman for any reason other than uncleanness, it is adultery when you marry someone else because you are still married to the first woman in God's eyes. That's right, adultery is physical relations with someone who is not your spouse. Because God sees you as still married to the first wife, by you marrying another and having sexual relations with her, you are committing adultery. Some in the Christian circles believe also that abandonment is reason for divorce too in the case of a Christian who is married to a non-Christian and I would agree with that as Paul talks about this in Corinthians, but in the case of two Christians who are married to each other, they are not to divorce unless one has been sexually unfaithful. If you divorce and your wife was not unfaithful, then when you marry another, you commit adultery. Hope that makes more sense.
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Divorce is not adultery. A Christian can divorce and remain unmarried and it is not adultery to do so. When a divorced Christian remarries, it is adultery if they divorced from their first spouse for any reason except for uncleanness (porneia in Greek) which covers every sexual act with any person who is not your spouse.
Basically, once you get divorced then you cannot get married with someone else, right? Why is this law? What if two people were forced to marry and later they want divorce?
The definition of adultery is to have physical relations with someone who is not your spouse, it is not to marry a divorced women. You cannot call marrying a divorced women adultery if its not.
My apologies, I forgot to answer your other question: What if two people were forced to marry and later they want divorce?
Christians are never forced to marry. I have never heard such a thing in Christianity.
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reread what was written in Deut 24:1-4 as to how Jesus disagreed about divorce and remarriage as permitted by Moses
1) the Greek story states that Jesus abolish 24:1 by saying only reason to divorce now is adultery, while Deut 24:1 states that divorce can be done so if the husband feel displeased with wife.
2) the Greek story then states Jesus abolish Deut 24:2 by saying whoever marries a divorced woman is doing adultery. while Deut 24:2 permits man to marry a divorced woman.
that is why divorce = adultery. the Greek story is showing Jesus attacking the fundamental of divorced woman that wishes to remarries.
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reread what was written in Deut 24:1-4 as to how Jesus disagreed about divorce and remarriage as permitted by Moses
1) the Greek story states that Jesus abolish 24:1 by saying only reason to divorce now is adultery, while Deut 24:1 states that divorce can be done so if the husband feel displeased with wife.
2) the Greek story then states Jesus abolish Deut 24:2 by saying whoever marries a divorced woman is doing adultery. while Deut 24:2 permits man to marry a divorced woman.
that is why divorce = adultery. the Greek story is showing Jesus attacking the fundamental of divorced woman that wishes to remarries.
Let us examine the Greek and Hebrew as this is what we should do to understand the scriptures. Any Christian who is serious about learning the Bible will not look at the English translation alone; we study the Hebrew and Greek words.
Moses says the husband can divorce for "ervah". This Hebrew word means: nakedness, nudity, shame, pudenda, (implying shameful exposure), nakedness of a thing, indecency, improper behaviour, exposed, undefended
Jesus says the husband can divorce for "porneia". This Greek word means: illicit sexual intercourse, adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc., sexual intercourse with close relatives, sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman, of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols
BOTH words mean uncleanness. The wicked hard-hearted men twisted Moses' teaching to mean that "improper behavior" meant anything they wanted it to be.
Matthew 19:3 "And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one’s wife for any cause?”"
Jesus is saying that this is not true and He explains by using the Greek word "porneia".
This uncleanness that Moses speaks of is more than just anything. You cannot decide to divorce your wife because you just don't love her anymore or for any reason you see fit. It is for indecency. Something shameful. And Jesus said that is adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, bestiality, and incest. And I would also add that includes pedophilia as that is sex with children and would quality as adultery also.
Divorce does not mean adultery. Divorcing for any reason other than "porneia" and marrying another means adultery. The adultery is committed in the remarriage of someone else. Paul said that if a Christian woman divorces her husband, let her remain single or go back to him. Neither the husband or the wife committed adultery by divorcing, but if they did not remain single and married someone else, they would have committed adultery.
1 Corinthians 7:10-11 "To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife."
How can divorce = adultery if the Christian husband and wife can be reconciled? They committed adultery on each other? This makes no sense based on what we read in the Bible. Clearly, only if they remarry is it adultery, unless, "porneia" was committed.
Matthew 5:32 "But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."
Why does it "make her commit adultery"? Because remarriage is ASSUMED. A woman would not survive in those days if she were alone. She would have to remarry. And the man that marries this same divorced woman, commits adultery because her husband has divorced her for another reason other than sexual immorality. If she committed sexual immorality, then God sees the marriage covenant broken and the two are no longer one flesh.
This is the teaching in the Christian faith.
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Indeed what you post is of what your faith taught as in the Greek chapters about Jesus. But do you really believe that during the time of Moses. A woman with a divorce certificate means a woman with the sin of adultery?
And as a man saw a woman with a divorce certificate. He chose to marry the woman with sin of adultery. And later the 1st husband also wanted to remarry the woman with past immoral sin after her new husband dies.
That is also like saying Moses failed to carry out punishment of stoning on adultery due to Moses not able to find any witnesses. And in the end, Moses created a method of issuing divorce certificate = woman that had carried out adutlery.
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Deut 24:1 means divorce due to wife displeasing husband, not solely due to doing naked or illicit sex. and the Greek books abolish the permission given by Moses by saying Jesus only allow it if its due to adultery.
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Indeed what you post is of what your faith taught as in the Greek chapters about Jesus. But do you really believe that during the time of Moses. A woman with a divorce certificate means a woman with the sin of adultery?
And as a man saw a woman with a divorce certificate. He chose to marry the woman with sin of adultery. And later the 1st husband also wanted to remarry the woman with past immoral sin after her new husband dies.
That is also like saying Moses failed to carry out punishment of stoning on adultery due to Moses not able to find any witnesses. And in the end, Moses created a method of issuing divorce certificate = woman that had carried out adutlery.
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Deut 24:1 means divorce due to wife displeasing husband, not solely due to doing naked or illicit sex. and the Greek books abolish the permission given by Moses by saying Jesus only allow it if its due to adultery.
Of course not. The woman with a divorce certificate was often put away for any reason at all, even though Moses said for "uncleanness". Without the certificate, it looked like she was still married. The certificate was her proof that she was divorced. Yes, the man "could" have been marrying a woman who may have committed adultery in her first marriage. The first marriage is over, regardless of who committed the adultery. But it might not have been actually for adultery. The man would know that she committed some "indecency" and so her husband sent her away. That indecency should have been actually sexual immorality (as Jesus tells us), but because of wicked men, it could have been anything because they called anything they didn't like about their wives "indecency". She still had her divorce certificate either way, regardless of what exactly she did to "deserve" to be divorced and she could remarry.
Jesus is simply explaining that a man could not divorce for "any cause", even though wicked men did and Moses had to implement something to protect the wives. Moses said for something indecent. They believed that to be for anything they deemed to be indecent. They could divorce her because she broke a dish, or burned his meal, or maybe because she was getting old and was not as attractive anymore. Jesus explains that it was not a reason for a husband to divorce and the only indecent thing would be sexual immorality.
So Jesus and Moses do not contradict each other, that is my point.
I guess we can agree to disagree on this matter. Thank you for the dialogue and for being respectful as we discussed this together. I very much appreciate your kindness.
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in conclusion, you are saying Moses issued a new method in dealing with adultery in cases of when witnesses cant be accounted for.
1) as stoning no longer viable
2) divorce certificate (for 1st husband , for 2nd husband knew, for 3rd husband, and con't with any future husbands shall they knew about indecency)
it still contradicts because in a Greek chapter about Jesus, which is Mat 5:32.
After mentioning about divorce certificate, it continues with whoever marries a divorced woman who had been sent away commits adultery. And in Deut 24:3 the new husband is not commiting any adultery under the permission of Moses even until he dies. And after new husband dies, the divorced woman is still allowed to remarry under the permission of Moses as long as not with 1st husband.
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in conclusion, you are saying Moses issued a new method in dealing with adultery in cases of when witnesses cant be accounted for.
1) as stoning no longer viable
2) divorce certificate (for 1st husband , for 2nd husband knew, for 3rd husband, and con't with any future husbands shall they knew about indecency)
it still contradicts because in a Greek chapter about Jesus, which is Mat 5:32.
After mentioning about divorce certificate, it continues with whoever marries a divorced woman who had been sent away commits adultery. And in Deut 24:3 the new husband is not commiting any adultery under the permission of Moses even until he dies. And after new husband dies, the divorced woman is still allowed to remarry under the permission of Moses as long as not with 1st husband.
I have tried to explain in great detail several times. I don't know how else to put it for you to understand. Perhaps read over my posts again. Thanks for the conversation.
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Mark 10:11-12 and Luke 16:18 mentions specifically about remarriage = adultery. So the explanation of no longer 2 flesh in 1 doesnt apply there.
And if you read 5:31-32. You will know that 5:31 means divorce due displease towards wife. Followed by the word BUT in the following line. The word BUT here is to show contradiction to previous line as divorce was carried out due to displease towards wife. Not due to sexual immorality.
If divorce in 5:31 was due to sexual immorality, 5:32 will be redundant in meaning certainly its a contradiction hence the use of word BUT
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Mark 10:11-12 and Luke 16:18 mentions specifically about remarriage = adultery. So the explanation of no longer 2 flesh in 1 doesnt apply there.
And if you read 5:31-32. You will know that 5:31 means divorce due displease towards wife. Followed by the word BUT in the following line. The word BUT here is to show contradiction to previous line as divorce was carried out due to displease towards wife. Not due to sexual immorality.
If divorce in 5:31 was due to sexual immorality, 5:32 will be redundant in meaning certainly its a contradiction hence the use of word BUT
As I said, I have tried to explain in great detail several times. I don't know how else to put it for you to understand. Perhaps read over my posts again. Thanks for the conversation and I will not be responding again as I don't see a point after posts I have given you.
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Im just sharing some new knowledge with you that Mark 10:11-12 and Luke 16:18 disagrees with Mat5:32 about 2 flesh in 1 can be broken like you proclaim.
Even in the event of wife committing adultery, Mark 10:11-12 and Luke 16:18 disallowed divorce and abolish the permission to divorce.
In Mat 5:32 its totally different situation as divorce is allowed if its due to adultery. But in Mat 5:31, the application of divorce certificate was not solely due to adultery hence the word BUT was used in the beginning of Mat 5:32
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Im just sharing some new knowledge with you that Mark 10:11-12 and Luke 16:18 disagrees with Mat5:32 about 2 flesh in 1 can be broken like you proclaim.
Even in the event of wife committing adultery, Mark 10:11-12 and Luke 16:18 disallowed divorce and abolish the permission to divorce.
In Mat 5:32 its totally different situation as divorce is allowed if its due to adultery. But in Mat 5:31, the application of divorce certificate was not solely due to adultery hence the word BUT was used in the beginning of Mat 5:32
All the gospels agree. As Christians, we do not separate these scriptures to have different meanings. Just because Mark and Luke do not mention "except for the cause of sexual immorality" doesn't mean we ignore what Matthew said. This is not proper exegesis of scripture. Not every New Testament writer included everything Jesus said which is why we must look at them all. There are differences between the gospel writers, some add more details, some leave some details out, but it does not change the message.
That is right, that the divorce certificate was not solely due to adultery and I understand what you are saying by the word "but". The Jews knew that Moses allowed divorce for "improper behavior". They would divorce her for any reason they considered to be improper behavior. This is why He says, "Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce." Jesus knew that this is what they were doing. Using "improper behavior" to mean anything. Then Jesus says, BUT I SAY, (divorcing for any reason you consider to be improper behavior is not what God wants). The improper behavior that God considers to be improper enough for divorce is adultery.
The case of divorce was not any law of Moses, or of God by him; but only a permission, because of the hardness of the hearts of the Jews: and as to the controversy, about the causes of divorce, this was not debated by them of old time, but was a new thing, just started in the time of Christ; and was a controversy then, between the schools of Hillell and Shammai: one allowing it upon any frivolous cause; the other, only on account of adultery.
Do you see what I am saying? I hope this makes it clear.
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Im just sharing some new knowledge with you that Mark 10:11-12 and Luke 16:18 disagrees with Mat5:32 about 2 flesh in 1 can be broken like you proclaim.
Even in the event of wife committing adultery, Mark 10:11-12 and Luke 16:18 disallowed divorce and abolish the permission to divorce.
In Mat 5:32 its totally different situation as divorce is allowed if its due to adultery. But in Mat 5:31, the application of divorce certificate was not solely due to adultery hence the word BUT was used in the beginning of Mat 5:32
And may I also add, that of the two schools, Shammai and Hillel, one interpreted "some uncleanness" to mean adultery and the other interpreted it to include anything the wife did that was offensive. Obviously, one of them had it right for a reason and viewed it to be only mean adultery.
The one legitimate ground of divorce allowed was "some uncleanness"—in other words, conjugal infidelity. But while one school of interpreters (that of Shammai) explained this quite correctly, as prohibiting divorce in every case save that of adultery, another school (that of Hillel) stretched the expression so far as to include everything in the wife offensive or disagreeable to the husband. And, indeed, to this day the Jews allow divorces on the most frivolous pretexts. It was to meet this that Jesus said: "But I say to you, That whoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causes her to commit adultery: and whoever shall marry her that is divorced commits adultery."
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Greek chapters in Mark and Luke is quite specific that 2 flesh in 1 will never broke (Mark10:8-9) hence even if wife commit adultery, divorce was not warranted and shall one were to marry the divorced wife its considered adultery.
But in Matt 5:32 its in disagreement to Mark 10:8-9. As you said, 2 flesh in 1 had been broken due to act of adultery. Thus remarriage is allowed in the case of adultery. But in Mark and Luke, divorce+remarriage is forbid.
As for the Jewish schools, they interpret it as adultery, displeased of behavior or appearance.
And if you look at Matt 5:31 is obviously referring to the interpretation of School of Hillel being the proper usage of it. And Jesus reemphasize with the word BUT to only do divorce in case of adultery.
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Greek chapters in Mark and Luke is quite specific that 2 flesh in 1 will never broke (Mark10:8-9) hence even if wife commit adultery, divorce was not warranted and shall one were to marry the divorced wife its considered adultery.
But in Matt 5:32 its in disagreement to Mark 10:8-9. As you said, 2 flesh in 1 had been broken due to act of adultery. Thus remarriage is allowed in the case of adultery. But in Mark and Luke, divorce+remarriage is forbid.
As for the Jewish schools, they interpret it as adultery, displeased of behavior or appearance.
And if you look at Matt 5:31 is obviously referring to the interpretation of School of Hillel being the proper usage of it. And Jesus reemphasize with the word BUT to only do divorce in case of adultery.
I'm sorry, but you are not interpreting the scriptures correctly and I just explained why there is a difference between Matthew, Mark and Luke.
Again, I have explained repeatedly. I guess we will agree to disagree on this matter and move on.
Have a wonderful day! :)
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they were different authors from different locations. Disagreement can happen.
Secondly, Deuteronomy 24:1-4 will be read in different manner from your p.o.v.
Basically Moses is writing permission about an adulteress to remarry and she even get issued divorce certificates couple of times due to adultery based on your quote from School of Shammai being correct meaning.
That means in 24:3 her new husband began to dislike her as he caught the adulteress in indecency. So the new husband issues another divorce certificate based on the interpretation of School of Shammai.
But then again, the 1st husband is not allowed to remarry. Shouldn't the 1st husband be allowed to marry the adulteress as the concept of 2 in 1 flesh had been broken. That is why the purpose here is to shows that Moses and Jesus were in disagreement if you were to read how Jesus spoke about Moses making his permission in the past.