Answering Christianity Research Center
MAIN BOARD (You must register to post) => GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS => Topic started by: thetruthseeker on December 18, 2015, 05:11:38 PM
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The Quran commands the Jews in verse 5:44 to judge using the Torah. And in the verse 5:47, it commands: "Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein."
Why does Quran command Christians and Jews to judge by the Gospel and Torah when Muslims say it is corrupted?
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For more info, you can refer
http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php?topic=1940
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in Quran 5:44, the exchanges of verses for small price
in Quran 5:45, Jews were suppose to judge or punish on crimes carried out. After all in the past twice they were expelled from their covenant land. Yet they still take lightly the commands of God.
in Quran 5:46 gospel was sent to prophet Jesus (pbuh). So revelations that came out from the mouth of Jesus reinforced by Holy Spirit were the gospel.
Gospel is not collection of narrations from different authors few centuries later in Greek telling the stories about the life of Jesus.
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as for act of corruption is mentioned in Quran 6:91
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Gospel is not collection of narrations from different authors few centuries later in Greek telling the stories about the life of Jesus.
Can you provide proof of this claim please?
Also, when and where was the Bible corrupted since the Quran says that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are from Allah and Allah's words cannot be changed?
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26 Greek books containing stories about Jesus from various authors and also containing letters of Paul were selected to form a corpus in 3rd/4th century.
Thats few hundred years after Jesus ascend to heaven. The selection was made among many other Greek books. And in the end, 26 Greek books are ascertained to be cannon. And others are heresy Greek books.
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Satan has his ways to falsify the covenant sent by God for mankind.
But Words of God can never be changed as the Creator have been sending His messengers to fight falsehood promised to be spread by Satan till end of days.
However Words of God written in books or on piece of paper can be altered. Depends on how the scribes get misled by Satan to spread falsehood.
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26 Greek books containing stories about Jesus from various authors and also containing letters of Paul were selected to form a corpus in 3rd/4th century.
Thats few hundred years after Jesus ascend to heaven. The selection was made among many other Greek books. And in the end, 26 Greek books are ascertained to be cannon. And others are heresy Greek books.
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Satan has his ways to falsify the covenant sent by God for mankind.
But Words of God can never be changed as the Creator have been sending His messengers to fight falsehood promised to be spread by Satan till end of days.
However Words of God written in books or on piece of paper can be altered. Depends on how the scribes get misled by Satan to spread falsehood.
There are 5800 manuscripts with the oldest dating back to 125 AD. The internal consistency of the New Testament documents is about 99.5% textually pure. That is an amazing accuracy. In addition, there are over 19,000 copies in the Syriac, Latin, Coptic, and Aramaic languages. The total supporting New Testament manuscript base is over 24,000.
Yes, writings in books and on paper can be altered, but as Christians, we believe that God has preserved His Word in the Bible. Even with variants between the manuscripts, they do not change meaning of the text.
If Allah is powerless to stop people from corrupting his message, can we even trust the Quran?
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How is Allah powerless?, He sent His prophets to preserve His message.
And Islam is the only covenant where even generations later.. The later generations still do not alter the words of God. And the later generations still do not make partners to the Creator.
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yes you said 5800 manuscripts with the oldest dating back to 125 AD. But there are also other Greek books much older than 125AD but they were claimed to be heretic books.
And all those Greek books do not have chain of narrations , transmission of authors/scribes linking it back to the early followers of Jesus
Also the books were not in one corpus.Only generations later in 4th century, the Hellenistic Christians began to follow a corpus made of 26/27 Greek books and letters.
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You said:
However Words of God written in books or on piece of paper can be altered.
By the statement you made, you have made Allah powerless to preserve His Word that has been written down.
Christians do not believe that God is powerless to protect His Word that has been written down.
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Based on such logic, you might as well question God why when His Words were written on piece of paper. The paper containing the Words of God deteriorates over time, why is God powerless preserved the papers with written Words of God.
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Based on such logic, you might as well question God why when His Words were written on piece of paper. The paper containing the Words of God deteriorates over time, why is God powerless preserved the papers with written Words of God.
Which is why He had scribes copy His Words that were written on papyrus. He protected it. His Word will be protected for all time because He said it would be. But not based on what you said. Your claim puts Allah powerless to do this. Christianity believes God is able to do this and has done this.
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The preservation of God's Word is thru confirmation and restoration by His prophets. That was what Yhwh command His Servants, the prophets to do.
The prophets restore the message of worshiping One God against those making partners to God. The prophets restore/confirm previous Words of God concealed/altered by scribes.
As for Greek books, they are narrations about the life of Jesus and also about how Paul met Jesus in the desert from the point of view of Helenistic followers. As generations past, only 27 Greek books were to be adhered by Helenistic Christians.
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To make the point more clear.
Just because Allah allowed humans to change the message which was taken to be as His word on Earth, doesn't mean that Allah was powerless to stop that.
It is the same as like when God allows all the suffering in the world, it doesn't mean that He is powerless to end it. It is according to His plan for humans.
The truthfulness of whether a particular alleged God is the actual God, depends on testing the promises that He makes. As far as I know, Allah never promised that all the divinely inspired books, in the hands of humans, will remain corruption-free till the end of time. Therefore, if such happens, it cannot be used as an argument for His refutation. This is according to, what is apparently, His plan for the humans.
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The truthfulness of whether a particular alleged God is the actual God, depends on testing the promises that He makes.
That is a great point and when applied to the Bible, we see that God, as described in the Bible, is the actual God because He keeps His promises.
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You said:
However Words of God written in books or on piece of paper can be altered.
By the statement you made, you have made Allah powerless to preserve His Word that has been written down.
Christians do not believe that God is powerless to protect His Word that has been written down.
There is a difference between men authoring their own texts, and the original God's revealed text. Anybody can write a few verses down, and say that it was from God. The same with the Bible.
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Unfortunately I can't say I've got much knowledge about Christian scripture. Regarding its preservation most of what I know is derived from the debate of well-known Christian scripture and textual scholar Dr. Bart Ehrman.
"Bart Ehrman & Daniel Wallace Debate Original NT Lost"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyABBZe5o68 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyABBZe5o68)
According to Bart Ehrman:
No complete manuscripts of the Bible from the first, second and third centuries exist.
From early second century only 1 manuscript of the Bible, which has a few verses written on it, has survived.
5,500 manuscripts of the Bible survive, of which 94 % are from the 9th century.
In short what Daniel Wallace said (similar to what you are affirming here) was that due to the vast number of manuscripts that are present and the hundreds of thousands of variances (most are insignificant) in them is a proof that we can reach the original New Testament text.
However, Bart Ehrman is skeptical of this concept or even convinced against it. He seems to believe that the probability of the loss of the original New Testament text is very high by giving an example that it would have taken only a single inaccurate or malicious copier of the New Testament in the first century to corrupt all the manuscripts that are presently available.
I completely agree that hundreds of thousands of the differences in the manuscripts are mostly spelling mistakes and such, as Bart Ehrman admits but according to him some of these differences are significant enough to question core Christian concepts.
In another debate that I was once listening to, the example of 1 John 5:7-8 was given. According to my limited knowledge, this was the verse which most explicitly confirmed trinity in the King James version of the Bible; but, according to new information obtained, in the 1980s its words had to be changed and the present version doesn't appear to be affirming trinity.
It is possible that the present version of the Bible might be the accurate one, I say this because of the "Christian Vs. Muslim" debates that I've listened to, both debaters use the Bible as a source of information. Christians interpret a particular verse a certain way, Muslims another, which is something Muslims apparently have common with nontrinitarian sects of Christianity.
However, as Bart Ehrman argues there is no way of knowing that. There is a reason that textual criticism is still going on, because there is still some work left. Maybe in the future we will be able to obtain the original words of the Bible and even prove that but presently (according to Bart Ehrman) we cannot be sure.
Regards.
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When you mention original document, as in the case of Greek books. The so called original Greek documents were not made during the time of prophet Jesus (pbuh). But after the claim by Paul that he met Jesus in the desert. And so the narrations from the Hellenistic followers were written down. But there were too many Greek narrations that only in 4th century, they were able to select which narrations and letters to be deemed cannon/inspired.
As for Israelite scriptures, they were written during the time of revelations sent down from God to the prophets.
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As'salamu Alaikum Muslim brothers and sisters and everyone else,
Did you know that MUSLIMS was the early believers' title according to the Aramaic sources?
Also, did you know that Greek wasn't even the first language in Palestine nor in Northern Arabia?
Also, did you know that there is a great deal of evidence that Arabic manuscripts among the Jews did exist in Arabia, and the Jews burnt them after they were kicked out by the Muslims from the Holy Lands?
Also, did you know that 7 Roman emperors burnt most of the early Christians' writings, and almost all of the ones written in the Middle East?
Visit this link to see detailed discussion about this at:
www.answering-christianity.com/muslims_and_arabic_language_during_jesus_times.htm
I will make the article much neater. But this is a detailed debbate that I had with Christians over these topics.
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
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As'salamu Alaikum Muslim brothers and sisters and everyone else,
Did you know that MUSLIMS was the early believers' title according to the Aramaic sources?
Also, did you know that Greek wasn't even the first language in Palestine nor in Northern Arabia?
Also, did you know that there is a great deal of evidence that Arabic manuscripts among the Jews did exist in Arabia, and the Jews burnt them after they were kicked out by the Muslims from the Holy Lands?
Also, did you know that 7 Roman emperors burnt most of the early Christians' writings, and almost all of the ones written in the Middle East?
Visit this link to see detailed discussion about this at:
www.answering-christianity.com/muslims_and_arabic_language_during_jesus_times.htm
I will make the article much neater. But this is a detailed debbate that I had with Christians over these topics.
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
Thank God they did not burn them all!
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Thank God they did not burn them all!
But when we find in the current canonized Bible references about the Prophet of Arabia (the Servant who will come from Arabia WITH THE NEW COVENANT) in both the OT and NT, then I have no reason to doubt Islam, my brother thetruthseeker. Please visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/predict.htm
Welcome to the board. May Allah Almighty open your heart to Islam. Ameen. Please always feel free to post all of your thoughts and concerns here. We would love to clarify any confusion or concern that you may have.
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
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Thank God they did not burn them all!
But when we find in the current canonized Bible references about the Prophet of Arabia (the Servant who will come from Arabia WITH THE NEW COVENANT) in both the OT and NT, then I have no reason to doubt Islam, my brother thetruthseeker. Please visit:
www.answering-christianity.com/predict.htm
Welcome to the board. May Allah Almighty open your heart to Islam. Ameen. Please always feel free to post all of your thoughts and concerns here. We would love to clarify any confusion or concern that you may have.
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
May I have those references please? Just list the verses that indicate this. Thanks!
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The passages are too many and too big to post here. Please visit the following links, which are linked in the one that I already gave above:
www.answering-christianity.com/Debates%20Database%20Doc%20File.doc
www.answering-christianity.com/debate_templates.htm (Click on the PPT files that are about Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him)
www.answering-christianity.com/sons_of_god_in_bible_and_quran_debate.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/convert_christians.htm
Also visit the following debate:
www.answering-christianity.com/does_muhammad_exist_in_the_bible_june_16_2013.wmv
And again, visit the main link:
www.answering-christianity.com/predict.htm
And for the reader also, visit the following link to see the Glorious Quran's Overwhelming and Stunning Scientific Miracles:
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
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The passages are too many and too big to post here. Please visit the following links, which are linked in the one that I already gave above:
www.answering-christianity.com/Debates%20Database%20Doc%20File.doc
www.answering-christianity.com/debate_templates.htm (Click on the PPT files that are about Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him)
www.answering-christianity.com/sons_of_god_in_bible_and_quran_debate.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/convert_christians.htm
Also visit the following debate:
www.answering-christianity.com/does_muhammad_exist_in_the_bible_june_16_2013.wmv
And again, visit the main link:
www.answering-christianity.com/predict.htm
And for the reader also, visit the following link to see the Glorious Quran's Overwhelming and Stunning Scientific Miracles:
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
No problem. How about you give me a 3 that I can look up. That shouldn't take too long.
Also, I noticed you quote Matthew 24, but that has already been fulfilled.