Answering Christianity Research Center
MAIN BOARD (You must register to post) => GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS => Topic started by: New World Order Cleanse on November 05, 2017, 12:58:04 PM
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You are assuming your historical foundations from an external literature. The hadith was invented by an oligarchy consisting of very few (ingeneous might I add) men well-versed in the art of realpolitik; God did not create the Quran for an invented library of hearsay with its own complex, insane science of authentication to replace it.
May I please request that you do not comment until you have watched the documentary, or read the book, please.
The word Mecca appears once inside the Quran and when it does, does not reference today's Mecca, and ironically the word Salaah does not appear anywhere near the one instance of this root.
Your religion is patchy, incorrect and highly unaesthetic. I cannot cite websites because you'll just ban me, so I'll provide a Youtube video which will provide a window into the main body of work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inJ1mCIsz5A&t=53s.
I do not heil from any sect, I simply seek to spread the Quranic teachings, see my previous thread.
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Oh and just to add up,theres more proof than just this Muhammad SAW was in Mecca,there were narrators and letter-writers of that time who spoke of Muhammad SAW in Mecca. And even people like Ibn Abbas and A'isha R.A after Muhammad SAW who seen him.
And this too destroys your whole points.
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Peace.
Mecca is not the same place as Macoraba.
No, there are no statues at Mecca depicting the Nabatean Gods. There just isn't. Because it's not there. It's just not. Just like the sky isn't green.
I haven't got the time for this; watch the documentary, or see the link I posted above to Youtube. Or read the book if you have the attention span.
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Again you'd have to explain the Letters,etc and not be ignorant of History,and also explain Ibn Kalbis book of Idols which is a Pre-Islamic book referencing nabatean Gods and I provided my proof and you only provided a video only cherrypicking from the Quran.
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Again you'd have to explain the Letters,etc and not be ignorant of History,and also explain Ibn Kalbis book of Idols which is a Pre-Islamic book referencing nabatean Gods and I provided my proof and you only provided a video only cherrypicking from the Quran.
Again you'd have to explain the Letters,etc and not be ignorant of History,and also explain John the Baptist's book at 1:1 which is a reliable Biblical account refercning Jesus as God and I provided my proof and you only provided a video only cherrypicking from the Bible.
;D
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Again,the bible is something different,Ibn Kalbis book is something different,you're changing topics which proves you cannot defend your case.
And you're definetly an atheist,not a muslim.
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You are assuming your historical foundations from an external literature.
Above, I updated my post and gave links that contain ancient writings that prove Mecca was Baca. The links again are:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2254.msg10005.html#msg10005
http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2254.msg10009.html#msg10009
As to proofs for the "external literature", we have the graves of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, and many of his companions in locations in Saudi Arabia and in northern Arabia where they died after opening the lands from the Persians and the Romans. The literature that proves the location where Islam started, and what was its Prophet's name, and how Islam systematically spread throughout Arabia and beyond is quite solid. You have a disease called "everything outside the Quran is false".
We have hard evidence from graves, to physical locations of homes, battles, tribes, etc... and ample literature that thoroughly prove Islam began in Mecca and took off from Mecca.
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
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Peace.
Mecca is not the same place as Macoraba.
No, there are no statues at Mecca depicting the Nabatean Gods. There just isn't. Because it's not there. It's just not. Just like the sky isn't green.
That's completely dumb. How did you know it's not there. You were just guessing.
Statues? You mean 300 idols around Ka'aba?
Also, "the sky isn't green" is completely different than Mecca.
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It's weak evidence and ignores the big picture: spurious, extremely vague literatures.
Vague literatures? I don't see millions flocking to pilgrimage to Petra every year. I see them flocking to Mecca. Your theory would be valid if literally all of the Arabs in the entire Middle East were permanently drunk or stoned. To have millions of Muslims flock to Mecca every single year testifies to the Truthfulness of Islam's literature about Islam indeed began from Mecca, and Its Prophet was Muhammad, peace be upon him.
How was the fabrication possible?
How could Hajj (pilgrimage) be fabricated when the Holy City of Mecca is the VERY CORE of it? If Hajj began at Petra, as you claim, then please tell us what year did the fabrication happen, and how did the thousands and thousands of Muslims back then just suddenly and/or abruptly change from Petra to Mecca? Like I said, they must all be permanently intoxicated in order for your theory to work. Otherwise, people wouldn't just change from Petra to Mecca because some doofus ordered them to change.
If you do not directly answer this, I will ban you! I am getting tired of your BS.
Osama
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It's weak evidence and ignores the big picture: spurious, extremely vague literatures.
Vague literatures? I don't see millions flocking to pilgrimage to Petra every year. I see them flocking to Mecca. Your theory would be valid if literally all of the Arabs in the entire Middle East were permanently drunk or stoned. To have millions of Muslims flock to Mecca every single year testifies to the Truthfulness of Islam's literature about Islam indeed began from Mecca, and Its Prophet was Muhammad, peace be upon him.
How is the fabrication possible?
How could Hajj (pilgrimage) be fabricated when the Holy City of Mecca is the VERY CORE of it?
Do you have anything else to add? I am getting tired of your BS.
Osama
I'm not here to convince everyone, it's my Quranic duty to preach against real and potential idols, like your religion. I want to please my maker.
I'm going to say it another time: your city is not historical, you've activated full-on Trinitarian Christian mode: fingers in both ears.
How could they pull it off? Let me ask you, how did they pull off 9/11? You underestimate how much power royalty has.
For your exact answer, it's in the documentary and involves the classic historical formula of: victors win war, victors rewrite history. Hence the burning down of libraries and mass censorship that ensued. But I guess you're not gonna watch it, that's ok, I don't think anyone takes you seriously anyway.
You have this flowery version of your religion's history which is false - the true history is ugly.
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Give me a verse that Muhammad (phub) was born in Petra.
Again, your stupid evidence did not prove me that Makkah was not historical. Petra sounds like a unpopular area in southern Jordan. No top Islamic scholars or Salafi said about Muhammad (phub) and Petra.
Also, we have old hadith like Muwatta Malik mentioned about Mecca many times. That was around 700 CE, but oral hadith were memorized since Islam was born.
You just looked the hadiths that were written in 900 CE, but what about oral hadiths?
UPDATE FROM OSAMA ABDALLAH:
"You just looked the hadiths that were written in 900 CE, but what about oral hadiths?"
Dear brother Albarra, I am afraid that your last statement makes it sound like he has HADITHS (sayings of the Prophet) that were written around year 900 AD/CE that actually say Petra was indeed Mecca. I just want to make it clear to the reader that such Hadiths do not exist. Your statement was referring to the alleged maps that he was talking about. And of course his statement is very stupid, because Mecca did ACTUALLY EXIST in 900 and 800 and 700 and 600 and thousands of years before! But at the very least, we know that it existed before 900 AD, whether there was a map drawn for it or not. People lived there and it was always called MECCA, and Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was born there, and his entire sub-tribe Hashim and entire tribe Quraysh were the inhabitants of Mecca. And the House of GOD Almighty that was built by Abraham and Ishmael, peace be upon them, was already there.
Just wanted to clarify that. Jazaka Allah Khayr.
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I don't think NWO knows much about 9/11. I mean several hijackers, including the mastermind, went to the strip club in Las Vegas several months before 9/11, according to FBI and witnesses.
Gee, I wonder why these terrorists did not kill female infidels or gambling.
You know that a strip club is completely forbidden under Shariah law. Honestly, they would get punished by Islamic courts.
Besides, Israel has a lot of classified docments about 9/11. Did you know that an Israeli company has private calling in the United Sates? It means that people can call someone secretly so that FBI or CIA cannot hear them, according to FOX News report.
Gee, I wonder why. Creepy.
Sorry sir, but you seriously know nothing about 9/11.
Again, Mecca is historical. Your evidence is pathetic.
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Burning mass libraries?
Again, how did you know these books were written about Petra or Mecca? Your evidence does not prove you anything because we really don't know. Maybe they burned libraries because these books were witten by infidels. I don't know, but you cannot jump to conclusion.
I already watched the video that you gave us a link, but this stupid guy was just guessing.
Your belief is idiotical.
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NWO cleanse, maybe you should summarise your points....
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*summarize
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NWO cleanse, take your time, take a deep breath, get comfortable and write a summary...it would be easier for brother Albarra and the others to discuss your points...
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NWO cleanse, take your time, take a deep breath, get comfortable and write a summary...it would be easier for brother Albarra and the others to discuss your points...
I'll do it for him, akhi. Here is the video and here are the points:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inJ1mCIsz5A&t=53s
1- Mecca called "the mother of all cities" refers to it being the center of all trading routes. This is false because Petra was the center of the trading routes.
RESPONSE: Your author, NWO Cleanse, - Sam Gerrans, - imposed this meaning on the Quranic term to the Holy City of Mecca.
2- Mecca was not found on any map until around year 900 AD, 300 years after Prophet Muhammad came.
RESPONSE: No proof. Yet, we have ample physical proofs that Mecca existed far earlier than this. See above.
3- Mecca does not have any substantial valley or mountain surrounding it, "which is part of the Quranic concept of a holy site"??
RESPONSE: Where did your Sam Gerrans come up with this lie?? The Glorious Quran does not give this criteria or condition for any holy site! Also, Mecca does have surrounding mountains, - MOUNT ARAFAT is used in the pilgrimage, - and it does have the underground stream of Zamzam, which fills the Well of Zamzam and it sustains life there.
Then he goes on to say that Petra has deep routes and that supposedly matches the Glorious Quran's "deep routes" statement about Muslims coming from all over the world to do Hajj (pilgrimage). And he talked about the doomed civilizations that were mentioned in the Glorious Quran were all located in Northern Arabia.
RESPONSE: The Arabs in central Arabia were fresh and had no corrupt scriptures like the Jews and Christians were. They were ready for a new Prophet and new Scripture, and this is one of the reasons why Allah Almighty chose them:
?34:44 ?????????? ?? ??? ???????? ????????? ????? ???? ?? ????
[034:044] Although, prior to you We did not give them books they could study ??? ????????, nor did We send a warner towards them ????????? ????? ???? ?? ????.
This would not apply to the northern Arabs around Petra, because they were under the Christians' rule at the time. The central Arabs were nomadic people and had no scriptures and no Prophets.
Silencing Mr. Sam Gerrans:
I finished the video and it has ample problems. All wishful thinking, conjecture and bias towards Petra. Again, there are points that you just can't refute:
1- Muslims by the MILLIONS flock to pilgrimage to Mecca, not to Petra. If Muslims were flocking to Petra by the THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS during the early days of Islam, then they would not be flocking today to Mecca. And we would certainly have a record for it (Petra), which we do not.
2- The graves of Prophet Muhammad and many of his companions are in Medina and Mecca and near by lands. Yes, some are in Northern Arabia due to the battles with the Romans and Persians, and many ended up settling there. But the Prophet's grave is in Medina! Can you refute that?
3- The four Islamic Rightly Guided Caliphs, Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman and Ali ruled in Medina. Ali later migrated to Iraq, but he was elected in Medina and began his rule in Medina. Uthman was killed in Medina. Omar was assassinated by the Persians in Medina. Abu Bakr fought the apostates from Medina. Ali migrated to Iraq from Medina. The Muslims liberated Mecca with 10,000 Muslims army. And it's even prophesied in the Bible:
www.answering-christianity.com/10000.htm
Nothing mentioned about Petra.
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
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Brother Shaad,
NWO is lazy.
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As'salamu Alaikum Everyone,
I just updated my refutation above to Sam Gerrans. NWO Cleanse, I expect you to respond to it. I have gone through the entire video and commented on it.
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
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I also just created a page to rebut Sam Gerrans and Dan Gibson and linked it at:
www.answering-christianity.com/sam_dan_rebuttals.htm
www.answering-christianity.com/ac8.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/ac11.htm#links
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
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that like saying no Jewish tribes existed in Medina and they never received any migration of tribes from Mecca but Petra.
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I wonder where he is, seems he really wanted to discuss about this subject but now when Albarra and the others have responded to his points he's nowhere to be found...
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I mean i really hope his doubts are cleared...
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Brother Shaad,
NWO didn't respond to us because he feels stupid.
I challenge him where is a verse that mentioned about Petra and Muhammad (phub) in the Qur'an, but he declined.
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Brother Shaad,
NWO didn't respond to us because he feels stupid.
I challenge him where is a verse that mentioned about Petra and Muhammad (phub) in the Qur'an, but he declined.
I would like to return the question to you and ask: where in the Quran does it say that Muhammad was from Mecca? The Quran itself uses very few place names.
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NWO cleanse, take your time, take a deep breath, get comfortable and write a summary...it would be easier for brother Albarra and the others to discuss your points...
I'll do it for him, akhi. Here is the video and here are the points:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inJ1mCIsz5A&t=53s
1- Mecca called "the mother of all cities" refers to it being the center of all trading routes. This is false because Petra was the center of the trading routes.
RESPONSE: Your author, NWO Cleanse, - Sam Gerrans, - imposed this meaning on the Quranic term to the Holy City of Mecca.
2- Mecca was not found on any map until around year 900 AD, 300 years after Prophet Muhammad came.
RESPONSE: No proof. Yet, we have ample physical proofs that Mecca existed far earlier than this. See above.
3- Mecca does not have any substantial valley or mountain surrounding it, "which is part of the Quranic concept of a holy site"??
RESPONSE: Where did your Sam Gerrans come up with this lie?? The Glorious Quran does not give this criteria or condition for any holy site! Also, Mecca does have surrounding mountains, - MOUNT ARAFAT is used in the pilgrimage, - and it does have the underground stream of Zamzam, which fills the Well of Zamzam and it sustains life there.
Then he goes on to say that Petra has deep routes and that supposedly matches the Glorious Quran's "deep routes" statement about Muslims coming from all over the world to do Hajj (pilgrimage). And he talked about the doomed civilizations that were mentioned in the Glorious Quran were all located in Northern Arabia.
RESPONSE: The Arabs in central Arabia were fresh and had no corrupt scriptures like the Jews and Christians were. They were ready for a new Prophet and new Scripture, and this is one of the reasons why Allah Almighty chose them:
?34:44 ?????????? ?? ??? ???????? ????????? ????? ???? ?? ????
[034:044] Although, prior to you We did not give them books they could study ??? ????????, nor did We send a warner towards them ????????? ????? ???? ?? ????.
This would not apply to the northern Arabs around Petra, because they were under the Christians' rule at the time. The central Arabs were nomadic people and had no scriptures and no Prophets.
Silencing Mr. Sam Gerrans:
I finished the video and it has ample problems. All wishful thinking, conjecture and bias towards Petra. Again, there are points that you just can't refute:
1- Muslims by the MILLIONS flock to pilgrimage to Mecca, not to Petra. If Muslims were flocking to Petra by the THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS during the early days of Islam, then they would not be flocking today to Mecca. And we would certainly have a record for it (Petra), which we do not.
2- The graves of Prophet Muhammad and many of his companions are in Medina and Mecca and near by lands. Yes, some are in Northern Arabia due to the battles with the Romans and Persians, and many ended up settling there. But the Prophet's grave is in Medina! Can you refute that?
3- The four Islamic Rightly Guided Caliphs, Abu Bakr, Omar, Uthman and Ali ruled in Medina. Ali later migrated to Iraq, but he was elected in Medina and began his rule in Medina. Uthman was killed in Medina. Omar was assassinated by the Persians in Medina. Abu Bakr fought the apostates from Medina. Ali migrated to Iraq from Medina. The Muslims liberated Mecca with 10,000 Muslims army. And it's even prophesied in the Bible:
www.answering-christianity.com/10000.htm
Nothing mentioned about Petra.
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
Peace.
1. That's a good point, first one you made in fact. What we can infer from the "mother of all cities" is that it is a place of significance, whether this is a major trading destination or a center of pilgrimage, it doesn't matter. Mecca is insignificant, since it was ignored by all cartographers, so it cannot be the subject at this juncture. After all, you do not make a map of the USA whilst awkwardly ignoring New York City... right? It's an iron paradox, you might as well be a Pastafarian at this point.
2. Maps can be found in Gibson's work.
3. Inconclusive and uninteresting point by Sam Gerran's. And it's not a lie, read carefully: "no substantial mountains", google what a valley looks like.
And about the northern arabs... Again, inconclusive and uninteresting point by Sam Gerrans; I focus mainly on the meaty stuff. For example I haven't even focused on the Qiblah's and that's a very meaty topic and makes your religion look very unsightly historically; it is overkill and I didnt really need to focus on it to make my points since the evidence is already overwhelming.
Your next three points are rubbish, so is that article. You again underestimate the power of aristochracy, you can brainwash a nation if you have enough funding and military power; I talked about it earlier with government funded 9/11, zionist media and the obviously fake footprints of Abraham (to mirror the obviously fake graves of Muhammad et al), I am not going to repeat myself. If anyone wants intelligently presented debates/rebuttals between King and Gibson (that kinda stuff) read: https://www.academia.edu/34569516/Response_to_David_King_with_attached_article. Both sides are presented, not low quality info sourced from a chat forum (lol).
Maybe there are people who have some integrity on this forum, like me a year ago - I right for them, wherever they may be.
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I mean i really hope his doubts are cleared...
I used to follow the official narrative of Islam, and then went through severe sleep loss and depression when I discovered all of this material.
I couldn't reconcile the contradictions, and indeed they cannot be reconciled much like Trinitarian Christianity cannot, they clash too strongly with reality.
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NWO cleanse, take your time, take a deep breath, get comfortable and write a summary...it would be easier for brother Albarra and the others to discuss your points...
I finished the video and it has ample problems. All wishful thinking, conjecture and bias towards Petra. Again, there are points that you just can't refute:
And I would just like to zoom in here, and look at it carefully and the presented evidence carefully. Wishful thinking and conjecture? It's a nuclear bomb of the greatest order on this religion, found nowhere in the Quran.
Bias towards Petra? Yes, I don't agree entirely with how he presented the video, he should have stuck to macro-historical data (my opinion), there is no macro-historical data supporting Mecca, it's all micro. All.
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British people never spoke English. They've always spoken Arabic. Whoever says they ever spoke English is a liar. Whoever says that the inhabitants of England were Brits or English is a liar. Whoever says that England is an Island is a liar. Whoever says Muhuhammad was born in Mecca, raised in Mecca, was from the tribe of Hashim, which is part of the whole tribe of Quraysh that inhabited Mecca, and lived in Mecca most of his life is a liar. Muhammad was a Petran!
OK dude, you win. I give up and I concede that you won. Only Germans live in England. And all speak Petran.
Osama Abdallah
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Forget all the historical narratives letters,etc,etc just throw that out,it doesnt exist
alright mane,you win totally. nah now being serious
Dan gibson is the reason Christians attack Islam,the Petra being Qibla myth that Dan gibson put out is STUPID and already refuted,and the maps he provided are NO historical maps at all,we need historical maps,
and even maps dont show a trade route,Narrative does,and looking at what Historical narratives say,It was most likely a Trade route
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Quran 48:24
?????? ??????? ????? ???????????? ??????? ?????????????? ??????? ???????? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ???????????? ?????????? ? ??????? ??????? ????? ??????????? ????????
And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Makka, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.
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https://fayezthezealot.wordpress.com/2014/12/28/makkah-historical-mecca-during-pre-islamic-period/
And again Ibn Kalbis book of Idols.
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I would like to return the question to you and ask: where in the Quran does it say that Muhammad was from Mecca? The Quran itself uses very few place names.
Mr. NWO,
The holy Qur'an doesn't tell a full story about Muhammad (phub) you dummy. That's why we use hadith to find the answer.
Unfortunately, because you are a Quranist, how do you know that he was from Petra? You were just guessing.
Besides, the holy Qur'an mentioned about Mecca in 48:24, but where is a verse that mentioned Petra?
Don't decline to answer my question you coward.
O by the way, Mecca has a lot of mountians, so we arrived in Ta'if airport and drove about an hour to Mecca. However, many pilgrims arrived in Jeddah's airport for Hajj.
So my question is, of course, why Saudi government didn't build a huge airport in Mecca?
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Quran 48:24
?????? ??????? ????? ???????????? ??????? ?????????????? ??????? ???????? ??????? ???? ?????? ???? ???????????? ?????????? ? ??????? ??????? ????? ??????????? ????????
And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of Makka, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.
Peace.
This is the one instance of this root of "Mekka". By comparative Quranic analysis of "Bibatni" and the lexicons, "Bibatni Mekka" translates to "belly of destruction", not "midst of Mekka (city)". Mecca today is not in a belly-like structure, and so fails to impress on these sparse descriptions within the Quran.
Your religion is a psychological operation, look up what that is. The 9/11 inside job is a great example of a psychological operation that is easily demonstrable.
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???? ???
? = in
??? = belly, tummy, deep. We say ??? ???? (BATN HAMIL), which means PREGNANT BELLY (https://translate.google.com/#ar/en/%D8%A8%D8%B7%D9%86%20%D8%AD%D8%A7%D9%85%D9%84). We also say ?? ???? ????? (FEE BATIN ALARD), which means DEEP IN THE EARTH (https://translate.google.com/#ar/en/%D9%81%D9%8A%20%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%B7%D9%86%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%B6).
??? = Mecca.
Your entire case is based on conjecture and Islam-hating bias. As I said in my first reply to you. Islam crushed the civilizations that surrounded it. This is why the Islam-hating infidels are desperately trying to disprove Islam. You seem to be another infidel, but a very stupid one. MECCA in this Noble Verse refers to the name of the City of Mecca. The Noble Verse most certainly assumes the name of the Holy City to have been well known by the people, especially that the Glorious Quran was revealed there, and Islam began there, and Prophet Muhammad was from there. Mecca being the city was a given! And the Noble Verse is directly linked to the Prophecy of opening the City of Mecca:
www.answering-christianity.com/10000.htm
When we say Alexandria, Virginia, do we mean Alexandria in Egypt or Alexandria in the state of Virginia in the USA? When Allah Almighty mentions Mecca in Noble Verse 48:24, does He mean Petra? Of course He meant Mecca as it was already a given to all Muslims there, since liberating the Holy City of Mecca from the infidels was their final destination. And Petra was never ever called Mecca.
Every time you get soundly refuted, you give a very stupid answer. Show us where Mecca means destruction. I am waiting......
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The NWO guy is very confused. There are two aspects to his argument:
1- BACCA in the Glorious Quran is not MECCA.
2- Petra was Mecca.
I believe we have amply and thoroughly refuted the second one. As to the first one, I really don't care if Mecca is Becca. The Glorious Quran Says that Allah Almighty established His First House of Worship in Becca. Whether Becca is Mecca or not, it doesn't matter. Mecca remains the birth place of our Islam.
I believe he has consolidated the two points above together and is arguing for them at the same time. And to him, if only he could prove, or cast doubt, that Mecca is not Becca, then this should automatically translate into Mecca = Petra.
I already gave you brother Idris' links in this thread where he showed from ancient writings in Mecca that it was also called Becca. But like I said, even Mecca was not Becca, it still doesn't matter. Mecca still remains the birth place of our Islam.
Becca in Northern Arabia? No problem!
I'll go along with you that Becca is not Mecca. Is this against Islam? No. Allah Almighty did Say that He has blessed the lands that near the land of the Farthest Mosque in Jerusalem:
[017:001] Glorified (and Exalted) be He (Allah) (above all that (evil) they associate with Him),Who took His slave (Muhammad SAW) for a journey by night from Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) to the farthest mosque (in Jerusalem), the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, in order that We might show him (Muhammad SAW) of Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, lessons, signs, etc.). Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer.
So no matter how you look at it, it doesn't matter. If Becca was near Palestine, then its no problem. If Becca was Mecca, it's also no problem. If Becca was Petra, it still no problem, because it is near Jerusalem.
We don't care about Becca:
Becca is an ancient city that had its time and expired. Mecca is our Holy City, not Becca. Mecca is where our Holy House of Allah Almighty, the Kaaba, is located. Mecca is the point of our Prayer's directions from all over the globe. Whether Becca is Mecca or Becca isn't, it does not matter to us.
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
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I'm a total noob on this subject but i've found an article which may help...
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2016/10/refuting-claim-petra-was-qibla-before.html?m=1
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???? ???
? = in
??? = belly, tummy, deep. We say ??? ???? (BATN HAMIL), which means PREGNANT BELLY (https://translate.google.com/#ar/en/%D8%A8%D8%B7%D9%86%20%D8%AD%D8%A7%D9%85%D9%84). We also say ?? ???? ????? (FEE BATIN ALARD), which means DEEP IN THE EARTH (https://translate.google.com/#ar/en/%D9%81%D9%8A%20%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%B7%D9%86%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%B6).
??? = Mecca.
Your entire case is based on conjecture and Islam-hating bias. As I said in my first reply to you. Islam crushed the civilizations that surrounded it. This is why the Islam-hating infidels are desperately trying to disprove Islam. You seem to be another infidel, but a very stupid one. MECCA in this Noble Verse refers to the name of the City of Mecca. The Noble Verse most certainly assumes the name of the Holy City to have been well known by the people, especially that the Glorious Quran was revealed there, and Islam began there, and Prophet Muhammad was from there. Mecca being the city was a given! And the Noble Verse is directly linked to the Prophecy of opening the City of Mecca:
www.answering-christianity.com/10000.htm
When we say Alexandria, Virginia, do we mean Alexandria in Egypt or Alexandria in the state of Virginia in the USA? When Allah Almighty mentions Mecca in Noble Verse 48:24, does He mean Petra? Of course He meant Mecca as it was already a given to all Muslims there, since liberating the Holy City of Mecca from the infidels was their final destination. And Petra was never ever called Mecca.
Every time you get soundly refuted, you give a very stupid answer. Show us where Mecca means destruction. I am waiting......
You have a bad habit of not reading replies properly. I said go to the lexicon, "Mekka" is a simple noun meaning "destruction". Jeez.
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I'm a total noob on this subject but i've found an article which may help...
http://thefactsaboutislam.blogspot.com/2016/10/refuting-claim-petra-was-qibla-before.html?m=1
I've read literally every single source on the internet, including this one and its variants.
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Osama, you're trying to muddy the waters and create confusion. I am not at all interested in Becca, nor am I really interested in Petra.
I am primarily trying to show that Mecca did not exist at Muhammad's time, of which the evidence is absolutely LEGION. You religion is a psychological operation conducted by the Abbasids, information for which you can discover in Gibson's excellently presented documentary, which has recently become very popular in Bangladesh.
I think I remember Idris, I believe I posed a question to him last year and then you deleted my account and deleted my post to him specifically, whilst keeping all my other posts on the system. I just can't take you seriously.
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And theres way more to it. this argument has been presented before by Brother.Idris.
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Heres a Link
http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php?topic=2254.0
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Also,ever heard of the ancient name for Mecca,Paran?
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British people never spoke English. They've always spoken Arabic. Whoever says they ever spoke English is a liar. Whoever says that the inhabitants of England were Brits or English is a liar. Whoever says that England is an Island is a liar. Whoever says Muhuhammad was born in Mecca, raised in Mecca, was from the tribe of Hashim, which is part of the whole tribe of Quraysh that inhabited Mecca, and lived in Mecca most of his life is a liar. Muhammad was a Petran!
OK dude, you win. I give up and I concede that you won. Only Germans live in England. And all speak Petran.
Osama Abdallah
Peace.
England has substantial historical literature written in English or its integral siblings, spanning many generations, none of which (or very few) is in Arabic; hence they did not speak Arabic primarily. This can be immediately verified.
England is an Island as demonstrated by aeriel photos. This can be immediately verified.
Your analogy is ill-posed.
And your conclusions regarding Muhammad are assumed from an external literaure, whose advent coincides with the victory of the Abbasid regime, post Ali and Uthman assassination.
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And again,your array of Irrationality is back,even After I provided enough proof to show Mecca was where Muhammad SAW was from.
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And again,your array of Irrationality is back,even After I provided enough proof to show Mecca was where Muhammad SAW was from.
Peace.
I didn't bother responding to your wall of text because it is all rubbish that I have already studied. If you were genuine you would have studied it yourself, it's all rubbish.
The macro-historical data doesn't lie. And the intelligent viewers of this forum, most of whom probably haven't signed up, know that the evidence I bought is extremely strong and forms a silhouette that explains all the data. You ignore data and just spew rubbish.
If you believe in Mecca's fake history, then you also have to believe that Mecca predates the Egyptian pyramids. THAT MECCA PREDATES THE EGYPTIAN PYRAMIDS.
IT'S INSANE.
IT'S REDICULOUS.
Dat dere double think brah. Dat dere.
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You never even backed up any of your claims and only used the Qur'an instead of historical narrative.
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I do believe Mecca predated the Pyramids,its a simple block building not a huge triangle,so how is it Ridiculous? you're just using arguments like christian Creationists,you just judge physically instead of Evidently.
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And again to prove Mecca was a trade route or any of that,we must read an historical book and this book isnt by a Muslim,its an ancient pagan.
Ibn Kalbi,Kitab al Asnam,read that for yourself.
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NWO cleanse, you're simply rejecting their arguments without pointing out with which of the points you're in disagreement, if you really are confident like you're portraying then why don't you point out the mistakes and discuss about it? It would be a win-win situation because first of all if you succeed, you'll be able to "open our eyes" or if it is the other way around, we'll be able to "open" your's....
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All hes been doing Is screaming Maps ignoring literary evidence as rubbish and also just mocking nothing else,we destroyed Sam Gerrans points with simple logic yet hes just ignoring
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NWO cleanse, you're simply rejecting their arguments without pointing out with which of the points you're in disagreement, if you really are confident like you're portraying then why don't you point out the mistakes and discuss about it? It would be a win-win situation because first of all if you succeed, you'll be able to "open our eyes" or if it is the other way around, we'll be able to "open" your's....
I can't open your eyes, the Quran is clear: God guides.
I promote macro-historical data because it is very hard for politicians to fake. For example, almost all early mosques faced Petra, then they gradually turned towards Mecca, this coincides with Mecca finally appearing on official maps.
When it does appear on the maps, it is not on the old trade route. This is all macro-historical data, there isn't much room for reinterpretation unless you are willing to manipulate data towards an agenda. This hard, physical data demonstrates the evolution of your hadith based religion.
Did that open your eyes? Nope. You're going to pull a micro-history like ptolemy (which is perpetually misrepresented, makoraba =/= mecca) and ignore the hard, physical data I presented.
There are intelligent societies of other Quranists who also reject Mecca and place the original site elsewhere than Petra, but bottom line: Mecca is not the original site. It's a psyop: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_Operations_(United_States)
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This guy has probably never heard of Mihrabs,that argument is so dang old.
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Mecca means destruction? Where did you come up with this rubbish? According to www.baheth.info, - a website that gives ample meanings from encyclopedic dictionaries, - Mecca was named as such because:
???????? ??????? ????? ??????? ???: ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??????????? ????? ???? ?? ?????????
"Mecca, also known as the Holy City, is said was named as such because it the scarcity of its water, and that's because people YAMTAKOON the water in it, meaning they would extract it from the ground."
It makes perfect sense since Saudi Arabia has no rivers, and Mecca has the blessed well of Zamzam.
They gave many meanings, but none said or implied destruction. Your source lied about the meaning of Mecca.
Very interestingly in the link above, one of the words that was derived from Mecca is MAKKOOK, which means a container. And in today's Arabic, we do call the space ship AL-MAKKOOK AL-FADAAI.
AL = The.
MAKKOOK = Ship.
AL-FADAAI = One for space or in space. FADAA' means space. FADAAI means that of space or in space or belongs to space. Like Iraq and Iraqi. Israel and Israeli (Israelite). Kuwait and Kuwati.
Take care,
Osama Abdallah
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This guy has probably never heard of Mihrabs,that argument is so dang old.
Trying to wriggle your way out with ill-researched one liners isn't going to make your black box worship historical.
Mihrabs were introduced so that the new prayer direction could be identified. The original prayer direction was... I don't need to say it, do I? It begins with the letter P.
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Then how about you go and pray to your Al Uzza and Manats and stop disrupting Muslims? That'll be better for you,now you sound like a christian missionary again.
Mihrabs were there in Older mosques aswell,for eg the Mali mosque,etc,etc.
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Then how about you go and pray to your Al Uzza and Manats and stop disrupting Muslims? That'll be better for you,now you sound like a christian missionary again.
Mihrabs were there in Older mosques aswell,for eg the Mali mosque,etc,etc.
I don't sound like a Christian missionary, I'm about strict monotheism.
I sound more like prophet Ibrahim when he was preaching against idol worship, and you sound like his people who were angry when he destroyed their idols, since you want me to go away. We are to replicate the example of the previous prophets, so I will continue preaching against worship of the priestly classes (hadith writers/Saudi librarians/oligarchs/wealthy politicians) and what they write with their pens, because according to them and you Allah somehow needs appendment (nauzubillah).
You can certainly pray towards Mecca, like some righteous Jews pray towards Jeruselum, you just cannot claim that your chosen method is the only acceptable way.
I pray towards Mecca when I'm with my family or at Friday prayers.
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This is your disgustful misunderstanding of the hadith then,
First of all Its not that Allah SWT needs apendment,Hadith is only a recording to follow the example of the Prophet,after all the Quran says we must follow what the Prophet has said too.
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This is your disgustful misunderstanding of the hadith then,
First of all Its not that Allah SWT needs apendment,Hadith is only a recording to follow the example of the Prophet,after all the Quran says we must follow what the Prophet has said too.
Great, so I guess we should all start bowing to black boxes because the government said that Muhammad said to do it, and the government never lies (sarcasm).
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Asalam ul laykum dear brothers and sisters. Been quite busy lately so never had time to comment on subjects.
New World Order Cleanse, i do 't see the issue here. In the Quran Allah swt made it pretty clear when he mentioned the following:
Quran [2:144] "SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
We have certainly seen the turning of your face, [O Muhammad], toward the heaven, and We will surely turn you to a qiblah with which you will be pleased. So turn your face towardal-Masjid al-Haram. And wherever you [believers] are, turn your faces toward it [in prayer]. Indeed, those who have been given the Scripture well know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not unaware of what they do."
So what's the problem here? Clearly everyone knows that musjid al-Haram has always been in Makkah/Bakkah. There are reference from the Quran and Old Testament not just that but other historians. Your pointing out bias historians, so when u go to a doctor to get ur car fixed what happens? Exactly, ur taking expertise in a subject from those who shouldn't be looked as experts in the subject because they are not from the region nor did they look at research of the native people in arabic but rather read from other historians from times were there was termoil between different races and religions. All im saying is ur looking at the wrong people for information, because Allah swt already made it very clear in Quran. Also it wasn't the government that told us muslims to pray towards Kabba which is musjid al-Haram it was Allah swt and prophet Muhammad (pbuh) if u have problem withthat then i don't see how u can call urself a muslim. Sorry bro just being honest.
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Peace.
This is the one instance of this root of "Mekka". By comparative Quranic analysis of "Bibatni" and the lexicons, "Bibatni Mekka" translates to "belly of destruction", not "midst of Mekka (city)". Mecca today is not in a belly-like structure, and so fails to impress on these sparse descriptions within the Quran.
Your religion is a psychological operation, look up what that is. The 9/11 inside job is a great example of a psychological operation that is easily demonstrable.
[/quote]
Yes, sure. Whatever you say. Virginia means virgin. Therefore, people are virgins hahaha.
In fact, I'm living in a small town in Pennslyvania. It's called State College. So, this town is all about state college, right?
Philadelphia means "brotherly love". According to sources, this fancy word came from the new testament.
The same thing with Medinah. It means "city".
And many other examples as well.
Your argument is dumb and hilarious.
9/11 is a serious mystery. We know that the U.S. and Israeli governments have a lot of classified documents that are related to 9/11.
And now they accused Saudi Arabia for claiming 9/11? This is going too far! I really hope WikiLeak can hack classified documents from Israeli-American government.
You can disagree all you want, but many non-Muslims agree with us. Ironically, I heard an American preacher believe that the U.S. government had been responsible for 9/11.
And did you know that the Pentagon secretly paid a half of a billion dollars for making fake al-Qaeda's videos during US invasing in Iraq?
Oh by the way, President Trump ordered to release classified files about John F. Kenedy, but some federal officials urged him not to release some high-sensitive files for security reasons.
Jeez, I wonder why.
And you still refuse to answer my simple question.
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dang old.
[/quote]
Trying to wriggle your way out with ill-researched one liners isn't going to make your black box worship historical.
Mihrabs were introduced so that the new prayer direction could be identified. The original prayer direction was... I don't need to say it, do I? It begins with the letter P.
[/quote]
Yes Mr. NWO. I know the exact answer. P means piss.
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NWO Cleanse, please address my refutation to your source above. I don't mind opposing views being posted here and discussed, but I don't tolerate clowns and liars. Not accusing you of this, but do not weasel around the refutations.
You said that your source says Mecca in the lexicon means destruction. I've gone through the dictionaries online and have not found it. Please provide the proof here.
I've googled your definition and saw some empty loons pushing this idea on blogs, and all of their garbage thoroughly refuted by Arabs who used dictionaries and Arabic grammatical rules. If you do not respond to this, then I will immediately ban you. I don't need your rubbish rhetoric and lies here. I respect real substance and love to learn from it and debate it, but not lies.
In one of blogs, one of your infidels spewed this rubbish:
"MKKH ??? means "destruction" in the same way that the same form NKBH ???? means "disaster" (same exact form F3LH). This is a mundane form and a well known fact in Arabic that only the most ignorant can deny."
Taking advantage of the people's ignorance in Arabic, this anti-Islam prostitute lied by taking advantage of the similar sound of the two very-different words. Here we have:
MECCA and NAKBA. I've already shown above why Mecca was named as such. But nakba means calamity. The two words are entirely different. They're not even spelling anywhere close to each other. They just appear to the non-Arab as such. Here is the proof:
MECCA is spelled as M, K, T
NAKBA is spelled as N, K, B, T
Do you see people how the Arabic infidel prostitutes operate? They fool the ignorant like our ignorant NWO Cleanse here with rubbish and they appear as scholars.
This is like saying "school" means evil, because "cruel" means one who intentionally causes pain and harm to others. They both sound similar. Just shut the hell up!
Will blame each other:
These infidel prostitutes remind me of this Noble Verse:
[007:038] God shall say unto them at the resurrection, enter ye with the nations which have preceded you, of genii and of men, into hell fire: So often as one nation shall enter, it shall curse its sister, until they shall all have successively entered therein. The latter of them shall say of the former of them, O Lord, these have seduced us; therefore inflict on them a double punishment of the fire of hell. God shall answer, it shall be doubled unto all; but ye know it not.
The Day will come when these doomed-to-Hell infidels will turn on each other. They can enjoy their current pathetic heaven from the cursed satan. But the doom of Hell is near and real. The Glorious Quran is Islam's Miracle. It speaks Truth and Its Promises are all real, because they are from Allah Almighty.
To the reader, visit the following links to see the Glorious Quran's STUNNING Numerical and Scientific Miracles:
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#numerical_miracles
www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm
Osama
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NWO Cleanse, let's wrap this nonsense up. Either you directly respond to my latest post or begone.
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And don't forget to answer my simple question, NWO.
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NWO Cleanse, let's wrap this nonsense up. Either you directly respond to my latest post or begone.
Peace.
I can't comment on the Arabic language, you might be right; I'm going to consult people who are skilled in Arabic. But Mecca at this juncture cannot mean the city Mecca today, because of everything I've said previously. If it did it would make everything messy.
Yes, I am entirely open to being proven wrong and learning. The goal is to strive to understand the Quran as it is, not assume conclusions from external literatures.
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Peace.
This is the one instance of this root of "Mekka". By comparative Quranic analysis of "Bibatni" and the lexicons, "Bibatni Mekka" translates to "belly of destruction", not "midst of Mekka (city)". Mecca today is not in a belly-like structure, and so fails to impress on these sparse descriptions within the Quran.
Your religion is a psychological operation, look up what that is. The 9/11 inside job is a great example of a psychological operation that is easily demonstrable.
Yes, sure. Whatever you say. Virginia means virgin. Therefore, people are virgins hahaha.
In fact, I'm living in a small town in Pennslyvania. It's called State College. So, this town is all about state college, right?
Philadelphia means "brotherly love". According to sources, this fancy word came from the new testament.
The same thing with Medinah. It means "city".
And many other examples as well.
Your argument is dumb and hilarious.
9/11 is a serious mystery. We know that the U.S. and Israeli governments have a lot of classified documents that are related to 9/11.
And now they accused Saudi Arabia for claiming 9/11? This is going too far! I really hope WikiLeak can hack classified documents from Israeli-American government.
You can disagree all you want, but many non-Muslims agree with us. Ironically, I heard an American preacher believe that the U.S. government had been responsible for 9/11.
And did you know that the Pentagon secretly paid a half of a billion dollars for making fake al-Qaeda's videos during US invasing in Iraq?
Oh by the way, President Trump ordered to release classified files about John F. Kenedy, but some federal officials urged him not to release some high-sensitive files for security reasons.
Jeez, I wonder why.
And you still refuse to answer my simple question.
[/quote]
You misunderstood me. I know 9/11 is an inside job, therefore it is a psychological operation. Debris was ejected very far from the site, indicating preset explosives, and it was a perfect pancake demolition, plane's can't cause that. I go to the big fat evidence, not spurious literatures.
Likewise, when analysing Mecca, I go to the big fat evidences e.g. the early mosque orientations, the maps etc. Not spurious literatures (ptolemy, diadorus etc).
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You quite handily ignore the incense trade route map and the silk road map.
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You quite handily ignore the incense trade route map and the silk road map.
Show me the map with the incense trade route map and the silk road map with Mecca's name on it, in the same vicinity.
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(https://www.google.ae/search?q=incense+trade+route+map&safe=strict&client=tablet-android-samsung&prmd=imvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjLpJPw57bXAhVlKMAKHW0HCdYQ_AUIEigB&biw=601&bih=962#imgrc=QBgM_8p15YpiGM:)
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(https://www.google.ae/search?q=incense+trade+route+map&safe=strict&client=tablet-android-samsung&prmd=imvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjLpJPw57bXAhVlKMAKHW0HCdYQ_AUIEigB&biw=601&bih=962#imgrc=QBgM_8p15YpiGM:)
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This website format aint that good,i cant post pics easily,
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(http://www.ipekyollari.net/Images2/AxumIncenseTradeAfrica.gif)
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Want more?
(https://oryxsa.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/the-incense-route-in-the-roman-period.jpg)
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(http://www.ipekyollari.net/Images2/AxumIncenseTradeAfrica.gif)
Peace.
Can you please provide the dating of this trade route (is it pre-Islamic, Islamic, or post-Islamic?), and can you provide a historical map (not digitized) that corroborates with this dating?
If there was such a map, I'm sure the skeptical historians wouldn't have missed it.
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http://www.ipekyollari.net/SilkSpiceIncenseRoutes.htm
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Dan Gibson never provided any ancient Map nor did Sam gerrans,
I provided historical maps like Ptolemy's map,what about it?
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NWO Cleanse, let's wrap this nonsense up. Either you directly respond to my latest post or begone.
Peace.
I can't comment on the Arabic language, you might be right; I'm going to consult people who are skilled in Arabic. But Mecca at this juncture cannot mean the city Mecca today, because of everything I've said previously. If it did it would make everything messy.
Yes, I am entirely open to being proven wrong and learning. The goal is to strive to understand the Quran as it is, not assume conclusions from external literatures.
It doesn't matter. Mecca is a city in the Arabian Peninsula, and I've never heard that Petra is a holy land for Muslims.
Currently, there is no evidence that Muhammad (phub) was born in Petra. Not in the Qur'an or Hadith, or even Islamic history.
Your claim is dumb because Qur'an actually mentioned about Mecca in 1,400 years ago. Where in the Qur'an that mentioned Petra? Answer now!
In fact, all English translators, including doctors and non-Muslims, agreed that the Qur'an mentioned Mecca in 48:24.
http://islamawakened.com/quran/48/24/
NWO, just give up already. Mecca is a historical city, but Petra is useless.
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NWO Cleanse, let's wrap this nonsense up. Either you directly respond to my latest post or begone.
Peace.
I can't comment on the Arabic language, you might be right; I'm going to consult people who are skilled in Arabic. But Mecca at this juncture cannot mean the city Mecca today, because of everything I've said previously. If it did it would make everything messy.
Yes, I am entirely open to being proven wrong and learning. The goal is to strive to understand the Quran as it is, not assume conclusions from external literatures.
It doesn't matter. Mecca is a city in the Arabian Peninsula, and I've never heard that Petra is a holy land for Muslims.
Currently, there is no evidence that Muhammad (phub) was born in Petra. Not in the Qur'an or Hadith, or even Islamic history.
Your claim is dumb because Qur'an actually mentioned about Mecca in 1,400 years ago. Where in the Qur'an that mentioned Petra? Answer now!
In fact, all English translators, including doctors and non-Muslims, agreed that the Qur'an mentioned Mecca in 48:24.
http://islamawakened.com/quran/48/24/
NWO, just give up already. Mecca is a historical city, but Petra is useless.
Qiblah.
Maps.
Maps.
Qiblah.
Mass cencorship Qiblah Qiblah Mass cencorship.
Maps maps.
Qiblah Mass cencorship.
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Your view is non Quranic,its worthless arguing with you.
Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer). (Surah Al-Baqara, 125)
From whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; that is indeed the truth from the Lord.And Allah is not unmindful of what ye do. (Surah Al-Baqara, 149)
Behold! Safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of Allah.So if those who visit the House in the Season or at other times, should compass them round, it is no sin in them.And if any one obeyeth his own impulse to good,- be sure that Allah is He Who recogniseth and knoweth. (Surah Al-Baqara, 158)
And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them.Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. (Surah Al-Baqara, 191)
And complete the Hajj or 'umra in the service of Allah.But if ye are prevented (From completing it), send an offering for sacrifice, such as ye may find, and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches the place of sacrifice.And if any of you is ill, or has an ailment in his scalp, (Necessitating shaving), (He should) in compensation either fast, or feed the poor, or offer sacrifice; and when ye are in peaceful conditions (again), if any one wishes to continue the 'umra on to the hajj, He must make an offering, such as he can afford, but if he cannot afford it, He should fast three days during the hajj and seven days on his return, Making ten days in all.This is for those whose household is not in (the precincts of) the Sacred Mosque.And fear Allah, and know that Allah Is strict in punishment. (Surah Al-Baqara, 196)
O ye who believe! Violate not the sanctity of the symbols of Allah, nor of the sacred month, nor of the animals brought for sacrifice, nor the garlands that mark out such animals, nor the people resorting to the sacred house, seeking of the bounty and good pleasure of their Lord.But when ye are clear of the sacred precincts and of pilgrim garb, ye may hunt and let not the hatred of some people in (once) shutting you out of the Sacred Mosque lead you to transgression (and hostility on your part).Help ye one another in righteousness and piety, but help ye not one another in sin and rancour: fear Allah.for Allah is strict in punishment. (Surah Al-Ma?ida, 2)
But what plea have they that Allah should not punish them, when they keep out (men) from the sacred Mosque - and they are not its guardians? No men can be its guardians except the righteous; but most of them do not understand. (Surah Al-Anfal, 34)
Their prayer at the House (of Allah.is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands: (Its only answer can be), "Taste ye the penalty because ye blasphemed." (Surah Al-Anfal, 35)
How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous. (Surah At-Tawba, 7)
Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah.They are not comparable in the sight of Allah.and Allah guides not those who do wrong. (Surah At-Tawba, 19)
Glory to ((Allah)) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things). (Surah Al-Isra?, 1)
Now tell me,seeing all these verses,wheres Petra? Nowhere. Nor can Petra be the sacred Mosque because
1.No evidence saying Abraham built Petra
2.Its a christian place with Idols and churches,from basic knowledge we know the idols were broken,so how ckme there are idols there?
3.It has churches,no sacred mosque to be found again.
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Btw Mecca is a valley,arabian valleys kind of look like this
(http://c8.alamy.com/comp/E7JB42/valley-in-the-jabal-al-qara-mountains-stone-desert-near-salalah-dhofar-E7JB42.jpg)
And this is how Mountains of Mecca look like,this is an old image of Mecca before the Valley was destroyed by Wahhabists/and or inhabited by Buildings
(https://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/photo/2015/09/mecca-then-and-now-126-years-of-gro/m06_35479u/main_900.jpg?1443547391)
So Mecca IS a Valley.
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Infact even Modern Mecca has sorrounding Mountains and is a complete Valley,still
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTnmaFWuOVvRan7UnFBJNVyspBhI22i5KkRYSqgLEo4bgkqFRfLsw)
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The only figure in that can be relate to Petra was Paul based on Christians tradition , as Paul interpreted the verse Isaiah 42:11 as Petra , hence he visited Petra to fulfill the prophecy of new religion where God decided to adopt the way of Hellenistic worshiping by manifesting into a human body as a son of God giving salvation to mankind.
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AMuslimDude STOP THINKING. Watch the documentary or shut up.
Every atom of data is considered; safa, marwa, ptolemy, surah fil, masjid al-haram etc EVERYTHING. Dont ask me to do your research for you.
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AMuslimDude STOP THINKING. Watch the documentary or shut up.
Every atom of data is considered; safa, marwa, ptolemy, surah fil, masjid al-haram etc EVERYTHING. Dont ask me to do your research for you.
I don't understand you're telling him to do his own research when you're the one who started this discussion...how is that even logical? If you've watched the documentary then why don't you summarise the points? It's $2.99 on Amazone prime, i wonder if his parents would allow him to rent this documentary...
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He hasn't summarized the points or anything,I doubt if he even has understood his own points he's tried to make,all he's been doing is trying to link us to the documentary rather than actually Prove Petra is where Muslims should be worshipping rather than Mecca.
I provided my proofs,thats it.
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Look,if Muhammad SAW was from Petra,Muhammad SAW would've been a huge influence since he preached religions other than the nabatean faith,
Can you give me ONE ancient Nabatean literature Mentioning Muhammad SAW in Petra??
Can you from 600 A.D?
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How can you take this guy seriously?
Look at him,he believes the earth is flat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP8QfiE9sxo
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I swear this guy's a joke,he tries to dumb down the historical narrative to the bible once proven wrong,then references 9/11 conspiracy's as his saviour,this is basically being a complete conspiracist and resorting to change of argumentation,9/11,and the Bible are different than the issue of Mecca,for 9/11 we had things laying around proving it wrong,we have no proof of it infact that it was the american government which did it,whereas the Bible John 1:1 thing,is not a letter,because its author is unknown,we donot know who it was,
But in the case of Mecca,we have ancient letters like so:
https://ponderingislam.com/2015/04/08/a-new-arabic-papyrus-dating-within-12-years-of-the-prophet-muhammad/
We have the proofs and archaelogical proofs like Muhammad SAW's clothings that Mecca was indeed where Muhammad SAW was from,and then these infidel Quranists expect to go and bow down to Idols in Petra?
its like they're trying to Paganize the religion to make it fit Liberal Values.
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AMuslimDude STOP THINKING. Watch the documentary or shut up.
Every atom of data is considered; safa, marwa, ptolemy, surah fil, masjid al-haram etc EVERYTHING. Dont ask me to do your research for you.
I don't understand you're telling him to do his own research when you're the one who started this discussion...how is that even logical? If you've watched the documentary then why don't you summarise the points? It's $2.99 on Amazone prime, i wonder if his parents would allow him to rent this documentary...
Honestly, last Thursday I bought a fish meal at a cafeteria and it was $5.80.
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AMuslimDude STOP THINKING. Watch the documentary or shut up.
Every atom of data is considered; safa, marwa, ptolemy, surah fil, masjid al-haram etc EVERYTHING. Dont ask me to do your research for you.
I don't understand you're telling him to do his own research when you're the one who started this discussion...how is that even logical? If you've watched the documentary then why don't you summarise the points? It's $2.99 on Amazone prime, i wonder if his parents would allow him to rent this documentary...
Hi Professor Double Think,
He's a kid? I'll stop replying to him then. Well, this forum seems intellectually stagnant.
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Intellectually stagnant? Says the guy who watched a video but can't even summarise the points...he's not a kid by the way, he's a teenager, such a pity you're ignoring his points, why don't you even try to refute it instead of asking him spending real money on a documentary? Come on Mr. Quranist, summarise the points...of course you won't do it, too lazy eh?
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NWO cleanse, we'll be waiting Professor Lazy...take your time...
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Noice the Quranist is using ad hominems to escape the argument.
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By the way correct me if i'm wrong, isn't Mecca clearly mentioned in 48:24?
"....???????? ???????"
If that's not the case then what is the explanation for it?
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By the way correct me if i'm wrong, isn't Mecca clearly mentioned in 48:24?
"....???????? ???????"
If that's not the case then what is the explanation for it?
Why don't you watch the documentary or read through the comments.
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By the way correct me if i'm wrong, isn't Mecca clearly mentioned in 48:24?
"....???????? ???????"
If that's not the case then what is the explanation for it?
Why don't you watch the documentary or read through the comments.
NWO cleanse, did you watch it before coming here? Of course you did....why don't you at least summarize the point then mate? Is that so hard?
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NWO cleanse, you said that MuslimDude's points are already dealt with in the documentary then it won't be hard for you refute it by yourself right? I remember you implied that this website is intellectually stagnant, so it would be easy for an intellectually superior being like you to refute those points....
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NWO cleanse, sorry for being rude yesterday by the way....
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NWO cleanse, you said that MuslimDude's points are already dealt with in the documentary then it won't be hard for you refute it by yourself right? I remember you implied that this website is intellectually stagnant, so it would be easy for an intellectually superior being like you to refute those points....
"Mekka" root appears once in the Quran at 48:24. Some assert that 48:24 was altered from "Bekka" (denoting Petra) to "Mekka" (denoting Mecca) by politicians and other interested parties; some assert that "Mekka" means "destruction"; others believe that it indeed denotes a place called Mecca but not the Meecca known today, but some other place in northern Arabia.
And of course those who adhere to the Abbasid narrative (the hadith, majority of this forum) will believe that this word "Mekka" denotes today's Mecca. This is false, but you are free to double think if you feel it makes your life more comfortable.
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Agh,it all resorts to the common Quranist argument
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/questions_that_the_quranites_have_no_good_logical_responses_to
Even Your own Quranists
[48:24] He is the One who withheld their hands of aggression against you, and withheld your hands of aggression against them in the valley of Mecca, after He had granted you victory over them. GOD is Seer of everything you do.
(Rashad Khalifa translation)
And Rashad Khalifa translated most of it accurately,so you're also denying your own Quranist theory.
Issue is,you're making up arguments,and not backing them up,my point still stands if Muhammad SAW was from Petra there would've been some literature mentioning him out of the Quran in Petra since Muhammad SAW would've been a big influence to the Petrans.
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Agh,it all resorts to the common Quranist argument
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/questions_that_the_quranites_have_no_good_logical_responses_to
Even Your own Quranists
[48:24] He is the One who withheld their hands of aggression against you, and withheld your hands of aggression against them in the valley of Mecca, after He had granted you victory over them. GOD is Seer of everything you do.
(Rashad Khalifa translation)
And Rashad Khalifa translated most of it accurately,so you're also denying your own Quranist theory.
Issue is,you're making up arguments,and not backing them up,my point still stands if Muhammad SAW was from Petra there would've been some literature mentioning him out of the Quran in Petra since Muhammad SAW would've been a big influence to the Petrans.
Forget about black boxes and gymnastics for a second, I have a mental exercise for shaad, who claims this forum isn't intellectually stagnant: there are numerous problems and assumed conclusions in the above quoted comment, point some out and predict the trajectory of my reply.
It doesn't have to be perfect.
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NWO cleanse, you claim about politicians changing the name from Bekka to Mecca and stuff....where are the proofs for that? As far as AMuslimDude's reply is concerned, well if i were you i would have used the same response to him but i've got nothing to back it up....if you could bring some proofs it would be great for us....
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NWO cleanse, Concerning the meaning of "Makka", i can see that Osama already responded to you a you said you'll have to consult an expert to check his claim....we'll have to wait for you i guess
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Agh,it all resorts to the common Quranist argument
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/questions_that_the_quranites_have_no_good_logical_responses_to
Even Your own Quranists
[48:24] He is the One who withheld their hands of aggression against you, and withheld your hands of aggression against them in the valley of Mecca, after He had granted you victory over them. GOD is Seer of everything you do.
(Rashad Khalifa translation)
And Rashad Khalifa translated most of it accurately,so you're also denying your own Quranist theory.
Issue is,you're making up arguments,and not backing them up,my point still stands if Muhammad SAW was from Petra there would've been some literature mentioning him out of the Quran in Petra since Muhammad SAW would've been a big influence to the Petrans.
Forget about black boxes and gymnastics for a second, I have a mental exercise for shaad, who claims this forum isn't intellectually stagnant: there are numerous problems and assumed conclusions in the above quoted comment, point some out and predict the trajectory of my reply.
It doesn't have to be perfect.
Already said, i would have used the same response....
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NWO cleanse, Concerning the meaning of "Makka", i can see that Osama already responded to you a you said you'll have to consult an expert to check his claim....we'll have to wait for you i guess
Obviously --- -
Hey brother Osama, can you give me a hand? We're still refuting this crazy guy about Muhammad's birth.
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Agh,Osama already refuted this fool,all thats left is to ban him,he isnt even adressing MY points,he's just calling them weak and "mental gymnastics" even though my points are simple and straightforward,where is the PROOF?!
I provided my maps,proof,etc,and literature,he didn't so I'm waiting for a rational response with Proof.
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Agh,it all resorts to the common Quranist argument
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/questions_that_the_quranites_have_no_good_logical_responses_to
Even Your own Quranists
[48:24] He is the One who withheld their hands of aggression against you, and withheld your hands of aggression against them in the valley of Mecca, after He had granted you victory over them. GOD is Seer of everything you do.
(Rashad Khalifa translation)
And Rashad Khalifa translated most of it accurately,so you're also denying your own Quranist theory.
Issue is,you're making up arguments,and not backing them up,my point still stands if Muhammad SAW was from Petra there would've been some literature mentioning him out of the Quran in Petra since Muhammad SAW would've been a big influence to the Petrans.
Forget about black boxes and gymnastics for a second, I have a mental exercise for shaad, who claims this forum isn't intellectually stagnant: there are numerous problems and assumed conclusions in the above quoted comment, point some out and predict the trajectory of my reply.
It doesn't have to be perfect.
Already said, i would have used the same response....
He claimed that I was affiliated with Rashad Khalifa, just because I reject the Abbasid narrative as canonical like Rashad - this is not true. I don't believe in the no.19 miracle, it's choppy.
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Agh,Osama already refuted this fool,all thats left is to ban him,he isnt even adressing MY points,he's just calling them weak and "mental gymnastics" even though my points are simple and straightforward,where is the PROOF?!
I provided my maps,proof,etc,and literature,he didn't so I'm waiting for a rational response with Proof.
Peace.
I didn't respond because your commend was stupid. Your maps are very much post-Islamic and digitized too, which is explicit misinformation. And Ptolemy did not note Mecca on his maps, how many times did I say it - Makoraba on Ptolemy's maps are inland and so it is not the same place as Mecca which is on the edge of the hejaz. Read: https://www.academia.edu/4735458/Suggested_Solutions_for_Issues_Concerning_The_Location_of_Mecca_in_Ptolemys_Geography
Please do not comment on this topic further, I do not wish to converse with you anymore. Thank you.
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p.s. I will respond if your comment is well-researched, else assume that I am ignoring you. Peace.
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Did Abraham build Petra?
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And also what I dont get if the original one was petra,and the Qibla was changed by Man,why wasn't there any outrage to this?
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Also going back to ptolemy heres a historical map
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PcJxT_GkKGM/UekuHhTS9_I/AAAAAAAAAps/WG7q7nqHhMU/s1600/arabia-felix-ptolemy-e1267837858140.jpg)
I wonder what place is "Mecha" on the map?
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NWO cleanse, you claim about politicians changing the name from Bekka to Mecca and stuff....where are the proofs for that? As far as AMuslimDude's reply is concerned, well if i were you i would have used the same response to him but i've got nothing to back it up....if you could bring some proofs it would be great for us....
Peace.
This view is because of the Qiblah change enforced by Abbasid politicians. Watch the documentary for a fuller answer.
I don't agree with this view because I believe in the Quran, I am just highlighting different views.
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If this was indeed true why was there no outrage on the Scholars? this is just a Qiblah argument,and again,there needs to be some scholarly book,or something left which does indeed denote this view,the Quran doesn't even mention Petra,nor does it describe the enviroment of Petra,rather it describes a place with a cubic building,which is a sacred Mosque
Yet in Petra,it is not cubic,nor are there signs of Any mosques there
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And the Macoraba response isnt that great neither,when we look at the Arabian felix map of Ptolemy he uses Macoraba somewhere in modern saudi arabia,and its right next to Mecca,maybe a little off,but then again its a historical map,infact this could show us where the name Makkah came from,
It was changed from Macoraba to Mecha.
(https://content.wdl.org/2916/thumbnail/1430162524/616x510.jpg)
If you want to view hte image more closely
You can view it on this site
https://www.wdl.org/en/item/2916/
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AMuslimDude, i've sent you a PM please check it out...
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LOL I GOT IT WHAT YOU ARE,YOU ARE A CONSPIRACIST,YOU ARE NOW TRYING TO IMPLY HISTORY IS CHANGED
WOW
Its good to ignore you then.
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I doubt Dan Gibson or Sam gerrans have ever even visited these mosques.
The Qibla can only be determined by the original floorplans,which none of these authors have.
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The video you provided is idiotic
Chapter 10 Jonah ???? ???? - Yunus: Verse 87
????????????? ?????? ??????? ????????? ???? ???????? ????????????? ???????? ???????? ??????????? ??????????? ???????? ??????????? ?????????? ? ????????? ??????????????
We inspired Moses and his brother with this Message: "Provide dwellings for your people in Egypt, make your dwellings into places of worship, and establish regular prayers: and give glad tidings to those who believe!" View more verses
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Do you ever bring a argument that can Quranically be suppored?
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Also
http://www.muslimheritage.com/article/from-petra-back-to-makka
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Okay,enough of this BS that NWO cleanse keeps putting out instead of sufficient Proof.
Ima go do things more relevant rather than somehow History changing courses and somehow all the letters of Muhammad SAW which Mention Mecca are false,and somehow all the Houses,places,etc and the area the Quran mentions that Fits Mecca is not there in the Quran(even though the Only place with a Macoraba/Kaaba is in Mecca,and no other ancient temple is there in Saudi arabia)
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If Medinah did not exist during Muhammad's life, then where is his funeral? Petra?
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Ahh this old argument that I refuted it was actually fun to dig down on ancient maps and finally find several that were showing Mecca to be a city.
and that Incense route took me a week and hours of research to finally find xD
Thing is. Mecca had historical sites. REALLY ANCIENT ONES proving Muhammad SAWs existence there. but they were all destroyed thanks to the Saudi government.
and also another thing to consider is in the Maps the area Mecca is we see the sign of a city that Ptolemy used to draw to signify a significant place.
And another historical thing to consider would be that many cities werent well known in the ancient world. for eg. there are some maps where Jerusalem isnt there. for eg. Some Maps show America doesnt exist.
So thing is. Mecca was a global trade route as I've shown but in the same it could have been a tribal one
Perhaps the reason Quran calls it mother of all cities was because of how famous it was among the arab tribes.
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Another funny thing about the argument is that Petra flooded in 551 and was destroyed by earthquakes and people Abandoned Petra in 551. so we can see it could NOT have been Petra since Petra died in 551 and theres no historical proof of Muhammad SAW being there ;D
So really the argument just springs back to NWOs face since there was no trade route in Petra after its destruction in 551. and Muhammad SAW was born in Makkah. as many historical records tell us. heck HIS OWN COUSIN. Ali Ibn Abi Talib R.A came out of Makkah. no Petra was mentioned.
Even his adopted son. Zaid as his name is mentioned on the Quran. a historical Zaid of the such was only recorded in Mecca
not a Petra.
So really this argument is hilarious as NWO is mentioning he follows the Quran yet goes against its Historical narrative it proposes.
Very Ironic Wallahi ;D
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MuslimDue, I think he stopped responding after AhmadFarooq destroyed him.
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Yes but this argument is still being taken seriously by Missionaries,its just historically embarassing and unsupported,really.