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Messages - Final Overture

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46
In the Bible / Re: Marrying your children???
« on: September 25, 2012, 06:36:52 AM »
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What kind of question is that?
What kind of answer is that?
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In your zeal to denigrate Christ, you violate the bounds of your own Qu'ran which ascribes sinlessness to Christ.
I am not denigrating Christ, wow. This prophecy turns Jesus into worshipper of Baals. Did Matthew got everything wrong?

19:19 He said, "I am only the messenger of your Lord to give you [news of] a pure boy."

47
Hi,

Did you hear the one about people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Roman Catholics & Muslims are very alike. They are ignorant of their religion and their history. They about going to church & mosque and BOTH of them murdered people who disagreed with their teachings.

There are many hadith and few Muslims have ever studied them. When a non-Muslim quotes verses from these books, Muslims become defensive. Some say, "We only believe in the Quran"! OK! What is happening in PROHIBITION sura 66:1-12 ? Without hadith you wouldn't know what happened.

I think ALL Muslims need to study hadith, because when they do, they won't be as cocky about their Perfect Religion.

Hadith is EXPLOSIVE!

The fact that Muslims are sooooooooooo aggressive towards non-Muslims, proves that they have a fearful spirit and like bullies in the school yard, when its put up to them, they run away.

The TRUTH, the WHOLE TRUTH and NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH!

Satan is the father of lies!

What hadiths question you..?

48
Because he submitted to God. That's what the word Muslim means.
He was the first Muslim among his people.

49
In Islam / Re: Allah blesses women
« on: September 24, 2012, 07:53:23 AM »
I have, while still catholic, read the bible from genesus to revelation.
Good one.
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I just meant to state how "allah blesses women", but i regret what has become of this topic. This topic has meant my persecution.

So, what was the necessity of starting the thread? Everyone knows that Allah blesses women, and that the believers - both men and women - will be in Paradise. Qur'an 4:124 And whoever does righteous deeds, whether male or female, while being a believer - those will enter Paradise and will not be wronged, [even as much as] the speck on a date seed.

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In islam love is not a requisite for marriage
It is.

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So, was it wrong for me to have hope for them--hope that allah can be gracious to such women?
Really? Allah is gracious.
Qur'an 2:136 And your god is one God. There is no deity [worthy of worship] except Him, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.


So, I want to see what you will say on these:
Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
Messenger of Allah () said, "The believers who show the most perfect Faith are those who have the best behaviour, and the best of you are those who are the best to their wives". Riyad as-Salihin Book 1' Hadith 278

And the similar one:

"Abu Hurairah narrated that The Messenger of Allah said:
“The most complete of the believers in faith, is the one with the best character among them. And the best of you are those who are best to your women.” (Hasan)

Jami` at-Tirmidhi Vol. 1, Book 7, Hadith 1162

50
In the Bible / Re: Marrying your children???
« on: September 24, 2012, 07:46:08 AM »
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Messianic message is the primary thread that runs through the OT from Gen 3:15 to Malachi 3.  The simple fact of this primary purpose of the OT makes any non-Messianic interpretation of a passage such as Isaiah 7:14 obviously biased and questionable.  And the fact that Matthew outright states that the prophecy is fulfilled in the birth of the Messiah removes all doubt.  If Matthew's statement was all there was, it would be enough to remove all doubt.  But there is sufficient evidence to demonstrate that it could not have been fulfilled in any other person.  So, there really can be no doubt about the passage at all.

May I ask you then about this "prophecy", which Matthew referred to Jesus?
Matthew 2:13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.”

14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

Matthew refers to Hosea 11
Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, I loved him,
    and out of Egypt I called my son.
2 But the more they were called,
    the more they went away from me.
They sacrificed to the Baals
    and they burned incense to images.

3 It was I who taught Ephraim to walk,
    taking them by the arms;
but they did not realize
    it was I who healed them.

Was Jesus a worshipper of Baals?

51
Quran Morality and Moral Code, Laws & QA / Re: kill non-belivers?
« on: September 24, 2012, 06:46:13 AM »
You're welcome. Ask more questions, i'd be glad to answer.
By the way, with whom are you making the conversation? If it is a Christian, then funny how does he use 5) and 6), since in Gospel of John 12 it is said: 39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 “He has blinded their eyes
    and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
    nor understand with their hearts,
    nor turn—and I would heal them.”

52
In Islam / Re: Allah blesses women
« on: September 23, 2012, 09:26:15 AM »
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How can i go to hell for not advocating polygamy? How can i go to hell for being stupid enough to ever believe that allah could bless women?
Noone said that you go to Hell for it, and no one said that Allah doesn't bless women. "Whoever does righteousness, whether male or female, while he is a believer - We will surely cause him to live a good life, and We will surely give them their reward [in the Hereafter] according to the best of what they used to do." (16:97)

Here is the quote from the book called
"WOMEN IN ISLAM VERSUS WOMEN IN THE
JUDAEO-CHRISTIAN TRADITION:

THE MYTH
&
THE REALITY"

BY

Dr. Sherif Abdel Azeem


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Let us now tackle the important question of polygamy. Polygamy is a very ancient practice found in many human societies. The Bible did not condemn polygamy. To the contrary, the Old Testament and Rabbinic writings frequently attest to the legality of polygamy. King Solomon is said to have had 700 wives and 300 concubines (1 Kings 11:3) Also, king David is said to have had many wives and concubines (2 Samuel 5:13). The Old Testament does have some injunctions on how to distribute the property of a man among his sons from different wives (Deut. 22:7). The only restriction on polygamy is a ban on taking a wife's sister as a rival wife (Lev. 18:18). The Talmud advises a maximum of four wives. 51 European Jews continued to practice polygamy until the sixteenth century. Oriental Jews regularly practiced polygamy until they arrived in Israel where it is forbidden under civil law. However, under religious law which overrides civil law in such cases, it is permissible. 52

What about the New Testament? According to Father Eugene Hillman in his insightful book, Polygamy reconsidered, "Nowhere in the New Testament is there any explicit commandment that marriage should be monogamous or any explicit commandment forbidding polygamy." 53 Moreover, Jesus has not spoken against polygamy though it was practiced by the Jews of his society. Father Hillman stresses the fact that the Church in Rome banned polygamy in order to conform to the Greco-Roman culture (which prescribed only one legal wife while tolerating concubinage and prostitution). He cited St. Augustine, "Now indeed in our time, and in keeping with Roman custom, it is no longer allowed to take another wife." 54 African churches and African Christians often remind their European brothers that the Church's ban on polygamy is a cultural tradition and not an authentic Christian injunction.

The Quran, too, allowed polygamy, but not without restrictions:

"If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one" (4:3).

The Quran, contrary to the Bible, limited the maximum number of wives to four under the strict condition of treating the wives equally and justly. It should not be understood that the Quran is exhorting the believers to practice polygamy, or that polygamy is considered as an ideal. In other words, the Quran has "tolerated" or "allowed" polygamy, and no more, but why? Why is polygamy permissible ? The answer is simple: there are places and times in which there are compelling social and moral reasons for polygamy. As the above Quranic verse indicates, the issue of polygamy in Islam cannot be understood apart from community obligations towards orphans and widows. Islam as a universal religion suitable for all places and all times could not ignore these compelling obligations.

In most human societies, females outnumber males. In the U.S. there are, at least, eight million more women than men. In a country like Guinea there are 122 females for every 100 males. In Tanzania, there are 95.1 males per 100 females. 55 What should a society do towards such unbalanced sex ratios? There are various solutions, some might suggest celibacy, others would prefer female infanticide (which does happen in some societies in the world today !). Others may think the only outlet is that the society should tolerate all manners of sexual permissiveness: prostitution, sex out of wedlock, homosexuality, etc. For other societies , like most African societies today, the most honorable outlet is to allow polygamous marriage as a culturally accepted and socially respected institution. The point that is often misunderstood in the West is that women in other cultures do not necessarily look at polygamy as a sign of women's degradation. For example, many young African brides , whether Christians or Muslims or otherwise, would prefer to marry a married man who has already proved himself to be a responsible husband. Many African wives urge their husbands to get a second wife so that they do not feel lonely. 56 A survey of over six thousand women, ranging in age from 15 to 59, conducted in the second largest city in Nigeria showed that 60 percent of these women would be pleased if their husbands took another wife. Only 23 percent expressed anger at the idea of sharing with another wife. Seventy-six percent of the women in a survey conducted in Kenya viewed polygamy positively. In a survey undertaken in rural Kenya, 25 out of 27 women considered polygamy to be better than monogamy. These women felt polygamy can be a happy and beneficial experience if the co-wives cooperate with each other. 57 Polygamy in most African societies is such a respectable institution that some Protestant churches are becoming more tolerant of it. A bishop of the Anglican Church in Kenya declared that, "Although monogamy may be ideal for the expression of love between husband and wife, the church should consider that in certain cultures polygyny is socially acceptable and that the belief that polygyny is contrary to Christianity is no longer tenable." 58 After a careful study of African polygamy, Reverend David Gitari of the Anglican Church has concluded that polygamy, as ideally practiced, is more Christian than divorce and remarriage as far as the abandoned wives and children are concerned. 59 I personally know of some highly educated African wives who, despite having lived in the West for many years, do not have any objections against polygamy. One of them, who lives in the U.S., solemnly exhorts her husband to get a second wife to help her in raising the kids.

The problem of the unbalanced sex ratios becomes truly problematic at times of war. Native American Indian tribes used to suffer highly unbalanced sex ratios after wartime losses. Women in these tribes, who in fact enjoyed a fairly high status, accepted polygamy as the best protection against indulgence in indecent activities. European settlers, without offering any other alternative, condemned this Indian polygamy as 'uncivilised'. 60 After the second world war, there were 7,300,000 more women than men in Germany (3.3 million of them were widows). There were 100 men aged 20 to 30 for every 167 women in that age group. 61 Many of these women needed a man not only as a companion but also as a provider for the household in a time of unprecedented misery and hardship. The soldiers of the victorious Allied Armies exploited these women's vulnerability. Many young girls and widows had liaisons with members of the occupying forces. Many American and British soldiers paid for their pleasures in cigarettes, chocolate, and bread. Children were overjoyed at the gifts these strangers brought. A 10 year old boy on hearing of such gifts from other children wished from all his heart for an 'Englishman' for his mother so that she need not go hungry any longer. 62 We have to ask our own conscience at this point: What is more dignifying to a woman? An accepted and respected second wife as in the native Indians' approach, or a virtual prostitute as in the 'civilised' Allies approach? In other words, what is more dignifying to a woman, the Quranic prescription or the theology based on the culture of the Roman Empire?

It is interesting to note that in an international youth conference held in Munich in 1948 the problem of the highly unbalanced sex ratio in Germany was discussed. When it became clear that no solution could be agreed upon, some participants suggested polygamy. The initial reaction of the gathering was a mixture of shock and disgust. However, after a careful study of the proposal, the participants agreed that it was the only possible solution. Consequently, polygamy was included among the conference final recommendations. 63

The world today possesses more weapons of mass destruction than ever before and the European churches might, sooner or later, be obliged to accept polygamy as the only way out. Father Hillman has thoughtfully recognized this fact, "It is quite conceivable that these genocidal techniques (nuclear, biological, chemical..) could produce so drastic an imbalance among the sexes that plural marriage would become a necessary means of survival....Then contrary to previous custom and law, an overriding natural and moral inclination might arise in favour of polygamy. In such a situation, theologians and church leaders would quickly produce weighty reasons and biblical texts to justify a new conception of marriage." 64

To the present day, polygamy continues to be a viable solution to some of the social ills of modern societies. The communal obligations that the Quran mentions in association with the permission of polygamy are more visible at present in some Western societies than in Africa. For example, In the United States today, there is a severe gender crisis in the black community. One out of every twenty young black males may die before reaching the age of 21. For those between 20 and 35 years of age, homicide is the leading cause of death. 65 Besides, many young black males are unemployed, in jail, or on dope. 66 As a result, one in four black women, at age 40, has never married, as compared with one in ten white women. 67 Moreover, many young black females become single mothers before the age of 20 and find themselves in need of providers. The end result of these tragic circumstances is that an increasing number of black women are engaged in what is called 'man-sharing'. 68 That is, many of these hapless single black women are involved in affairs with married men. The wives are often unaware of the fact that other women are 'sharing' their husbands with them. Some observers of the crisis of man-sharing in the African American community strongly recommend consensual polygamy as a temporary answer to the shortage of black males until more comprehensive reforms in the American society at large are undertaken. 69 By consensual polygamy they mean a polygamy that is sanctioned by the community and to which all the parties involved have agreed, as opposed to the usually secret man-sharing which is detrimental both to the wife and to the community in general. The problem of man-sharing in the African American community was the topic of a panel discussion held at Temple University in Philadelphia on January 27, 1993. 70 Some of the speakers recommended polygamy as one potential remedy for the crisis. They also suggested that polygamy should not be banned by law, particularly in a society that tolerates prostitution and mistresses. The comment of one woman from the audience that African Americans needed to learn from Africa where polygamy was responsibly practiced elicited enthusiastic applause.

Philip Kilbride, an American anthropologist of Roman Catholic heritage, in his provocative book, Plural marriage for our time, proposes polygamy as a solution to some of the ills of the American society at large. He argues that plural marriage may serve as a potential alternative for divorce in many cases in order to obviate the damaging impact of divorce on many children. He maintains that many divorces are caused by the rampant extramarital affairs in the American society. According to Kilbride, ending an extramarital affair in a polygamous marriage, rather than in a divorce, is better for the children, "Children would be better served if family augmentation rather than only separation and dissolution were seen as options." Moreover, he suggests that other groups will also benefit from plural marriage such as: elderly women who face a chronic shortage of men and the African Americans who are involved in man-sharing. 71

In 1987, a poll conducted by the student newspaper at the university of California at Berkeley asked the students whether they agreed that men should be allowed by law to have more than one wife in response to a perceived shortage of male marriage candidates in California. Almost all of the students polled approved of the idea. One female student even stated that a polyganous marriage would fulfil her emotional and physical needs while giving her greater freedom than a monogamous union. 72 In fact, this same argument is also used by the few remaining fundamentalist Mormon women who still practice polygamy in the U.S. They believe that polygamy is an ideal way for a woman to have both a career and children since the wives help each other care for the children. 73

It has to be added that polygamy in Islam is a matter of mutual consent. No one can force a woman to marry a married man. Besides, the wife has the right to stipulate that her husband must not marry any other woman as a second wife. 74 The Bible, on the other hand, sometimes resorts to forcible polygamy. A childless widow must marry her husband's brother, even if he is already married (see the "Plight of Widows" section),regardless of her consent (Genesis 38:8-10).

It should be noted that in many Muslim societies today the practice of polygamy is rare since the gap between the numbers of both sexes is not huge. One can, safely, say that the rate of polygamous marriages in the Muslim world is much less than the rate of extramarital affairs in the West. In other words, men in the Muslim world today are far more strictly monogamous than men in the Western world.

Billy Graham, the eminent Christian evangelist has recognized this fact: "Christianity cannot compromise on the question of polygamy. If present-day Christianity cannot do so, it is to its own detriment. Islam has permitted polygamy as a solution to social ills and has allowed a certain degree of latitude to human nature but only within the strictly defined framework of the law. Christian countries make a great show of monogamy, but actually they practice polygamy. No one is unaware of the part mistresses play in Western society. In this respect Islam is a fundamentally honest religion, and permits a Muslim to marry a second wife if he must, but strictly forbids all clandestine amatory associations in order to safeguard the moral probity of the community." 75 It is of interest to note that many, non-Muslim as well as Muslim, countries in the world today have outlawed polygamy. Taking a second wife, even with the free consent of the first wife, is a violation of the law. On the other hand, cheating on the wife, without her knowledge or consent, is perfectly legitimate as far as the law is concerned! What is the legal wisdom behind such a contradiction? Is the law designed to reward deception and punish honesty? It is one of the unfathomable paradoxes of our modern 'civilised' world.

53
In the Bible / Re: Marrying your children???
« on: September 23, 2012, 06:43:56 AM »
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Umm, ok, so the point escapes you completely?  Perhaps the following verse will be helpful:

For to us a child is born,
   to us a son is given;
and the government shall be upon his shoulder,
   and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, **Mighty God**,
   Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
(Isaiah 9:6)
Then, may I ask you some questions about Isaiah 9:6...
What government was on Jesus' shoulder?
When was he called Everlasting Father, if he himself said that Father is greater than him?
How can he be called Prince of Peace, if he came NOT to bring peace, but sword?

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Your original question was, "if He was eternal, how could He die?"  To which the obvious answer is, He couldn't without taking to Himself a human nature.  That is why He, the Creator of the entire universe, joined Himself to a human nature, in order to become like us in every respect - yet without sin - in order to die for the sins of a people.  And, in his humanity clearly He could die.  That's not hard to understand, is it??
If eternal DIED, then he is not eternal!! If eternal became limited with flesh, then he is not eternal. And I think God is not a man (Hosea 11:9)

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Not necessarily - considering that Jesus wasn't speaking Greek with the Jewish leaders and neither was the OT written in Greek originally. 

In your refusal, though, to see the relation of John 8:58 to Exodus 3:14, you miss the obvious - that Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham was born.
Yes, he spoke Aramaic, but why don't you see the connection to Gen 21:12? A seed, which is Jesus?
Angels also lived before Abraham, I don't think that means they are Gods.

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since you apparently know Greek
No, I don't. I just checked that in the web.

54
In Islam / Re: Allah does not bless women
« on: September 23, 2012, 06:31:42 AM »
Why do women do salat behind men? It's simple. Men pray to allah; women pray to men. That is why i cannot call myself muslim, anymore.
Men and Women pray to Allah only, you don't really have to show your ignorance.

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The man submits to allah; while the woman submits to the man. The man obeys allah; while the woman obeys the man. The man is blessed by allah; while the woman is blessed by the man. That is why i am not a muslim.

So what if woman obeys the man? Men also have to obey the Prophet, does that mean that they pray to Prophet?

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I am a hypocrit because i do not submit to men. I am a hypocrit because i believed that allah could possibly bless women. I am a hypocrit because i thought there was mercy and hope for women. I am a hypocrit because i thought that women could be independent. I am a woman because i do not believe in adam and eve plus aisha plus this woman and that woman. I am a hypocrit because i don't always agree with men. I am a hypocrit because i am not a bible basher. I am a hypocrit because i love my neighbors as i love myself. I am a hypocrit because i don't search for the bad in other religions. I am a hypocrit because i believe i am strong. I am a hypocrit because i have morals. I am a hypocrit because i believe men and women are equal. I am a hypocrit because i don't believe that men are always right. I am a hypocrit because i think about the well-being of children.

You are a hypocrite, because you show your hypocrisy. That's not very hard to see
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I am a hypocrit because i believe men and women are equal.
Qur'an says the same. Women and men are equal but not similar. I guess, you know the difference.

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The God, Almighty in whom I believe is neither male nor female. My God loves every one of his creations. My God is there for anyone who reaches out to him. My God blesses everyone, male and female, black and white, big and small, young and old, rich and poor, healthy and sickly, big and small, learned and unlettered, those with big faith and those with only little faith. My God is the same to everyone

Hmmm, not.Psalms 5:4 For you are not a God who is pleased with wickedness;
    with you, evil people are not welcome.
5 The arrogant cannot stand
    in your presence.
You hate all who do wrong;
6     you destroy those who tell lies.

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But, allah is very different. Allah only loves men. Allah hates women; and only tolerates them with the man's permission. Allah is a puppet who's master is the man. Allah is the man's ego. Men worship their egos aka allah. The christians worship the flesh; while the muslims (males) worship the male ego. The muslim women also worship the flesh--their muslim males.

What nonsense, have you just said?! Maybe this verse may help you a bit.
"Say, "Indeed, those who invent falsehood about Allah will not succeed."" Qur'an 10:69

55
Quran Morality and Moral Code, Laws & QA / Re: kill non-belivers?
« on: September 22, 2012, 03:08:41 PM »
IF SOME ONE HAVE ANSWERS THEN GIVE ME IN DETAILS OR GIVE ME LINKS FROM WHERE I FIND THE RELEVANT ANSWERS OF THESE VERSES....THANK YOU....

1)  Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

2)  "Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)

 3)  "Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)

4)  "Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. God knows, but you know not" (2:216).

 5)  Don't bother warning the disbelievers. Allah has made it impossible for them to believe so that he can torture them forever after they die. 2:6-7

6)  Allah has sickened the hearts of disbelievers and increased their disease. He is a spiritual anti-doctor. 2:10

5 and 6 are not about killing
3 --- http://muslim-responses.com/Fighting_those_who_dont_Believe_/Fighting_those_who_dont_Believe_
1=4 --- it says Fighting, you can fight even with your mouth. For example: "So do not obey the disbelievers, and strive against them with the Qur'an a great striving (Jihad)." (25:52)

56
In the Bible / Re: Marrying your children???
« on: September 22, 2012, 03:01:53 PM »
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Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign.
Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son,
and shall call his name Immanuel [God with us].
(Isaiah 7:14)
Immanuel - God with us. And?
Elisha - God is my salvation
Eliakim - God rises
Eleazar - My God has helped
Eliab - My God is Father
Gedaliah - God is great
Ishmael - God hears

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And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Well...
Exodus 3:14: I AM (ὁ ὤν) has sent..
John 8:58: Before Abraham was, I am (ἐγώ εἰμι)...
Different phrase.

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Huh?  Why should they?
Because they do? Psalms 97:5 The mountains melt like wax before the LORD (Judges 5:5)

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However, the mountains and indeed all the earth will melt before Him when He returns to judge the world,
So, that's when he will become God?

57
In Islam / Re: Allah blesses women
« on: September 22, 2012, 02:11:16 PM »
Muslims are depraved. Christians, jews, muslims clearly pray to different gods--imaginary. The qur'an is nothing but propaganda. I'm no longer muslim, thanx to you muslims. I hate islam.
You never were a Muslim. Sorry.

58
In the Bible / Re: Marrying your children???
« on: September 22, 2012, 12:33:09 PM »
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There was a Savior.  He was the one sitting on the throne.  He is eternal and there is no future nor past to Him.  His death on the cross was before Him and He applied the benefit of that to Isaiah. 
If He is eternal, how could He die?

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Look closer: Jesus is King of kings and Lord of Lords.  (Rev 19:16)

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
(John 8:58)
One can easily prove that he is not the King of Kings, but later.
What do you think "before Abraham was, I am" means? You think that means he is God?

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Look again: Isaiah saw the Lord in glory, seated on a throne.  John tells us that Isaiah saw the glory of Christ, and wrote of Him. (John 12:41).

So, you compare Isaiah 6:1 to John 12:41?


Answer on these:
Psalms 97:5 «The mountains melt like wax before the LORD»
Amos 9:5 «The Lord GOD of hosts, he who touches the earth and it melts»
Nahum 1:5 «The mountains quake before him; the hills melt; the earth heaves before him, the world and all who dwell in it.»

Did mountains or hills melt before Jesus?

59
In the Bible / Re: Marrying your children???
« on: September 22, 2012, 11:06:56 AM »
Wow, really? Let's see:
Psalms 145:8 The LORD is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.
2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just
And
Isaiah 6:6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for".

It's not clear what your point is.  The first two verses are clear and simple but the latter verse clearly shows the need of an atonement. 

You know that he [Jesus Christ] appeared in order
to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
(1 John 3:5)

The types and foreshadowings of the OT pointed to, looked forward to, the work of Christ.  Those things did not have efficacy in and of themselves but only by virtue of their connection with Christ's sacrifice. 

Then one of the seraphim flew to me,
having in his hand a burning coal that he
had taken with tongs from the altar.
And he touched my mouth and said:
"Behold, this has touched your lips;
your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for."
(Isaiah 6:6-7)

This does not mean, that the fire from the altar had any physical effect to purify him from sin, but that it was emblematic of such a purifying; and probably, also, the fact that it was taken from the altar of sacrifice, was to him an indication that he was pardoned through the “atonement,” or expiation there made. The Jews expected pardon in no other mode than by sacrifice; and the offering on their altar pointed to the great sacrifice which was to be made on the cross for the sins of human beings. There is here a beautiful union of the truths respecting sacrifice. The great doctrine is presented that it is only by sacrifice that sin can be pardoned; and the Messiah, the sacrifice himself, is exhibited as issuing the commission to Isaiah to go and declare his message to people.

And, as a matter of interest to Muslims, John writes that what Isaiah saw was the preincarnate Christ:

Isaiah said these things because he saw his [Christ's] glory and spoke of him.
(John 12:41)

where Isaiah wrote:

And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips,
and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have
seen the King, the LORD of hosts!"
(Isaiah 6:5 ESV)

Thus, here is a declaration of the Deity of Christ - Isaiah calls him Jehovah and John says that Isaiah saw Christ's glory and spoke of HIM.  Thus, the efficacy of the burning coal is in the certain foreknowledge of Christ's own work by Him.

This is all straightforward.  However, it merely points out the utter lack of an atonement in Islam.  And, without an atonement, Allah cannot be righteous under Islam and forgive sins.  In order to be merciful, Allah must simply **ignore** the guilt of the guilty, and this makes Allah unrighteous in being merciful.  Thus, the Islamic view of God is false.

In Christ,
Jim

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It's not clear what your point is.
Some sins were forgiven, even though there was no savior.
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You know that he [Jesus Christ] appeared in order
to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
(1 John 3:5)
Why did he break the Sabbath day, then?


Quote
And I said: "Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips,
and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have
seen the King, the LORD of hosts!
"
(Isaiah 6:5 ESV)

Thus, here is a declaration of the Deity of Christ - Isaiah calls him Jehovah and John says that Isaiah saw Christ's glory and spoke of HIM.  Thus, the efficacy of the burning coal is in the certain foreknowledge of Christ's own work by Him.

Hm, really? I don't find Jesus there. Look closely: "for my eyes have
seen the King, the LORD of hosts!"
And the very first verse: In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple.
John lived at the time of King Uzziah?

60
In the Bible / Re: Marrying your children???
« on: September 22, 2012, 04:27:44 AM »
Wow, really? Let's see:
Psalms 145:8 The LORD is gracious and merciful, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.
2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just
And
Isaiah 6:6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.”

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