Author Topic: The testimony of truth - The Garden of Eden from the serpent's perspective  (Read 25398 times)

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Offline abdullah

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Re: The testimony of truth - The Garden of Eden from the serpent's perspective
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2013, 11:12:33 AM »
I was going to refrain from continuing our conversation, but i feel I must refute the ignorance in your post.

1.Are you changing positions first you said the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim, then when I showed that you made the claim first, then you went and said that the burden of proof lies on me because I am a theist. No, the burden of proof lies on you since you made the claim. Furthermore, The presumption of atheism is dead.

2. This statement needs no proof. God by definition is eternal this is basic theistic philososphy. If we were to go with your logic we would have an infinite regress of events.

3.You still don't understand my argument, you haven't even dealt with my second law of thermodynamics argument.

4.No, I said that it is impossible for evolution to have created irreducibly complex organs. Again, we are talking about information we already KNOW, not information we don't know.

5. all of these were lab experiments, futhermore they have never succesfully recreated these experiments in nature.

6.I don't think you know what agnosticism i, an agnostic is a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

7.No, im not refuting natural selection, i'm refuting Darwinian evolution via natural selection

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Re: The testimony of truth - The Garden of Eden from the serpent's perspective
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2013, 11:41:22 AM »
Assalamualykum.


 Dear attheist, why can't you understand a simple thing that nothing can't be created on its own. Just like computers, televisions, cars, buildings etc. For time being lets just assume that our Universe came into being naturally. Okay, then tell me if Sun, Moon, Earth, Stars etc can come into being naturally,then why not computers,cars,buildings etc. And we know that Universe came into being from a smoke of Hydrogen. Now tell me, who created that Hydrogen smoke. Okay you may say, some particles got together and created that smoke. Then my question is, who created those particles?  And how can you even think that such big heavenly bodies(Earth, Sun, Moon, Mars, Jupiter etc) can be controlled from getting crashed into one another without a Controller. So, just open your heart,look at the sky and think about these things.

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: The testimony of truth - The Garden of Eden from the serpent's perspective
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2013, 11:51:34 AM »
3.You still don't understand my argument, you haven't even dealt with my second law of thermodynamics argument.
7.No, im not refuting natural selection, i'm refuting Darwinian evolution via natural selection

Brother, I hate to intervene, but the second law of thermodynamics applies to a closed system. Life is not a closed system it is an open system as the sun provides the energy for life processes to occur. This is a very basic explanation, if you are interested please look it up. Knowledge is power and we should pursue knowledge with a passion. Don't show ignorance on science and then use that ignorance to attack science.

Lets take this from a logical perspective, If I build a house: I create order instead of entropy. Does that mean I couldn't do it because I contradicted the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

Stop trying to deny Allah's method of creation, a method which is both mentioned in the Quran and explained by science. Personally, I feel this is rather insulting to your creator. I guess not even evidence can convince the unwilling.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 11:58:40 AM by mclinkin94 »

Offline The Canadian Atheist

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Re: The testimony of truth - The Garden of Eden from the serpent's perspective
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2013, 02:52:38 PM »
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A miserable failing bluff . Until you prove it's the same in Quran , your words are all trash .

The Quran has the same story, God places Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, they eat the fruit and get sent to Earth as a punishment, but if they repent, they can have eternal life again.

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Have not I said that your ignorance will show in every single line you say about Islam ?! We don't believe Allah came from nothing . We believe he exists since ever . He's a creator , he wasn't created ! To say that the creator is created is nonsense ! As for the days , I suppose that "Golden days" are a few ? And before creating Earth , how was a day counted ? That means the mentioned days are periods of time .

You believe he's eternal. You believing something won't make it true, unfortunately. You need to provide proof of that claim. If you can't, it's false. For example, I can say that Zeus created the Earth without proof too.

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And you think that the one who put this law is limited by it ? I might get a headache of facepalming .

Who put this law? Odin?

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Peltdown and Nibraska men . Google them . By the way , the latter is a tooth of a pig .

All of you guys are using ancient arguments from Harun Yahya that were refuted centuries ago. We found other transitional fossils later. Scientists only did this for fame and wealth. Genetic fallacy.


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Good , did you see that process ? I think not ?

And again the ancient "How do you know, were you there when it happened?" argument. Were you there when Allah created the universe?

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It's a matter of belief

Believing a fairy tale doesn't make it true. Faith over objective reasoning is absurd.


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I think the whole world facepalmed to this ? For the thousand time : Allah isn't created ! He is the creator ! The creator can't be created !

Circular reasoning.

False premise: The universe must have a creator
Jumping to conclusions: Therefore the creator is Allah
Circular reasoning: Allah doesn't need a creator, because I said so!

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Look who's talking . The few things I read about this experiment - of the "other side" - say that it was a failure because it didn't match the primitive atmosphere of Earth .

Already went over this, there were other variants of Miller's experiment recently with the changed condition that were successful. You can't rely on Harun Yahya's book forever...

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Come at us , bro .

Few examples. Allah telling Moses' followers to kill themselves (2:54), delicious cuisine magically falls from the sky (5:115), a staff turns into a serpent (7:107), Jonah gets swallowed by a fish and prays while inside (37:142), there are only seven heavenly bodies (2:29), etc etc

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. They're the only group that doesn't agree on anything at all

Yes, individual ideas and being able to think for yourself is a wonderful thing, wouldn't you agree?

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Atheism is a demonstration of emotional issues

Emotional issues like how Allah destroyed an entire city because they were gay? Or emotional issues like how Allah once drowned an entire city because they were not Muslims? Or emotional issues like "worship me man, I love you, too bad you have to burn in hell if you don't"

""I will become angry upon the insulting and degrading of my pious slaves, like how a lion becomes furious when its cubs are harassed." "

An all knowing deity can't be angry. That's illogical. Anger is a result of surprise, for example, if you're my loyal servant and one day you betray me, I would be angry. But if I already know you're gonna betray me, I'm not gonna get angry.

"Good luck finding one example [of transition from species]"

Here's a couple, if you believe in fossils

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils#Bird_evolution

Thank you for clearing that again mclinkin94, surely an open minded person like you deserves better than Islam :)

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Personally, I feel this is rather insulting to your creator.

Indeed, I've heard this before. I believe Carl Sagan said this.

Hi Farhan Uddin,

You wrote:
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Dear attheist, why can't you understand a simple thing that nothing can't be created on its own. Just like computers, televisions, cars, buildings etc. For time being lets just assume that our Universe came into being naturally. Okay, then tell me if Sun, Moon, Earth, Stars etc can come into being naturally,then why not computers,cars,buildings etc. And we know that Universe came into being from a smoke of Hydrogen. Now tell me, who created that Hydrogen smoke. Okay you may say, some particles got together and created that smoke. Then my question is, who created those particles?  And how can you even think that such big heavenly bodies(Earth, Sun, Moon, Mars, Jupiter etc) can be controlled from getting crashed into one another without a Controller. So, just open your heart,look at the sky and think about these things.

Good question. Even if there was a creator, how can we be certain that the creator is Allah? The Higgs Boson can create itself.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 02:58:58 PM by The Canadian Atheist »

Offline abdullah

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Re: The testimony of truth - The Garden of Eden from the serpent's perspective
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2013, 05:31:44 PM »
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Quote from: abdullah on Today at 12:12:33 pm
3.You still don't understand my argument, you haven't even dealt with my second law of thermodynamics argument.
7.No, im not refuting natural selection, i'm refuting Darwinian evolution via natural selection

Brother, I hate to intervene, but the second law of thermodynamics applies to a closed system. Life is not a closed system it is an open system as the sun provides the energy for life processes to occur. This is a very basic explanation, if you are interested please look it up. Knowledge is power and we should pursue knowledge with a passion. Don't show ignorance on science and then use that ignorance to attack science.

Lets take this from a logical perspective, If I build a house: I create order instead of entropy. Does that mean I couldn't do it because I contradicted the 2nd law of thermodynamics?

Stop trying to deny Allah's method of creation, a method which is both mentioned in the Quran and explained by science. Personally, I feel this is rather insulting to your creator. I guess not even evidence can convince the unwilling.
1.Thank you for proving my point, did you read my previous post I said there are only two processes in the universe that are known to cause low entropy. Mind guided processes and physical laws( gravity, quantom mechanics, etc.,etc..) Darwinian Evolution doesn't fall under any of the two categories. Natural selection is not a mind guided process and it is not a natural law.

2.DO NOT try to force your interpretation of the Qur'an on me, I do not do it to you and I hope you can do the same for me.

3. The only thing I'm refuting is Darwinian Evolution, not God guided evolution. I have no stance on god guided evolution

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You believe he's eternal. You believing something won't make it true, unfortunately. You need to provide proof of that claim. If you can't, it's false. For example, I can say that Zeus created the Earth without proof too.


All of you guys are using ancient arguments from Harun Yahya that were refuted centuries ago. We found other transitional fossils later. Scientists only did this for fame and wealth. Genetic fallacy.


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I think the whole world facepalmed to this ? For the thousand time : Allah isn't created ! He is the creator ! The creator can't be created !

Circular reasoning.

False premise: The universe must have a creator
Jumping to conclusions: Therefore the creator is Allah
Circular reasoning: Allah doesn't need a creator, because I said so!


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Come at us , bro .

Few examples. Allah telling Moses' followers to kill themselves (2:54), delicious cuisine magically falls from the sky (5:115), a staff turns into a serpent (7:107), Jonah gets swallowed by a fish and prays while inside (37:142), there are only seven heavenly bodies (2:29), etc etc

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. They're the only group that doesn't agree on anything at all

Yes, individual ideas and being able to think for yourself is a wonderful thing, wouldn't you agree?

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Atheism is a demonstration of emotional issues

Emotional issues like how Allah destroyed an entire city because they were gay? Or emotional issues like how Allah once drowned an entire city because they were not Muslims? Or emotional issues like "worship me man, I love you, too bad you have to burn in hell if you don't"

""I will become angry upon the insulting and degrading of my pious slaves, like how a lion becomes furious when its cubs are harassed." "

An all knowing deity can't be angry. That's illogical. Anger is a result of surprise, for example, if you're my loyal servant and one day you betray me, I would be angry. But if I already know you're gonna betray me, I'm not gonna get angry.


1. What kind of proof are you asking for? I can philosophically prove it to you. If you are unwilling to even understand islam I see no point in conversing with you.

2.Agreed. Harun Yahya is a fraud.

3. Same as point 1

4.The majority of your points are miracles. Which I can neither prove or disprove, unless I show you the Qur'an is from God. Seven heavenly bodies? I will give you the benefit of the doubt and  assume you misread the ayah.

5.The rest of your points are opinions and I see no point of even conversing with you on these matters.

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: The testimony of truth - The Garden of Eden from the serpent's perspective
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2013, 07:34:27 AM »
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The Quran has the same story, God places Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, they eat the fruit and get sent to Earth as a punishment, but if they repent, they can have eternal life again.
OK , who among the sane people objects on this ? Allah created father Adam and mother Eve peace upon them to live on Earth . But he wanted to test them . So he told them to have whatever they wanted of the trees except one that they weren't allowed to approach . Iblis - Satan - whispered to them with evil and they did wrong . They repent and Allah accepted their repentance for he is the most merciful . I'd like to see a sane man say a thing about this .

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You believe he's eternal. You believing something won't make it true, unfortunately.
The most basic rules of common sense make it true . Already explained and as usual you ignore it all .

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You need to provide proof of that claim. If you can't, it's false. For example, I can say that Zeus created the Earth without proof too.
Look , I won't bear the headache and make as simple as a song of kindergarten . Logic and reason say there has to be a first , there has to be a creator that isn't created . That creator must be omnipotent and knows all and out of the system he created and other things . As for which religion is true , that's something to discuss after you're convinced of the first . And I swear that no religion on Earth would stand a chance in a debate against Islam for more than 5 minutes .

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Who put this law? Odin?
Again , already explained .

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All of you guys are using ancient arguments from Harun Yahya that were refuted centuries ago. We found other transitional fossils later. Scientists only did this for fame and wealth. Genetic fallacy.
Nope , those two are just the tip of the iceberg . There isn't a single transitional fossil . Unless you call a skeleton of every bloody monkey an ancestor . If so , then that's your business .

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And again the ancient "How do you know, were you there when it happened?" argument. Were you there when Allah created the universe?
So you agree that this argument stands . I'll ask again : Did you see this so called evolution of a bear into a whale ? You need to stop escaping every question that you're asked by turning around and making another question . As for us , Allah told us about he created the universe . As I said , logic leaves no place for an option other than that a creator made the universe . And when you asked if it's Allah or Odin or someone else , you're dodging the main argument . If you're convinced that there's a creator , then we'll talk which religion is true .

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Believing a fairy tale doesn't make it true. Faith over objective reasoning is absurd.
Eat dirt and trash ! I can't believe how low you can go ! I didn't allow any room for misunderstanding but it seems the wrong doers can't hear a thing except what they like ! Where on Earth do you see me saying we have blind faith here ? :
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It's a matter of belief . And because I know you'll jump the gun and say "Hey , the Muslim admits that he believes blindly !" I'll burst your bubble . I said it's a matter of belief that is based on believing in the whole religion which is in turn based on rational evidence . If we believe in religion , we believe in what it says even if we can't see it with our own eyes .
Have you no shame ?! If you're crazy , then the readers are sane !

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Circular reasoning.
False premise: The universe must have a creator
Jumping to conclusions: Therefore the creator is Allah
Circular reasoning: Allah doesn't need a creator, because I said so!
Lunatic reasoning . And yet again you can't see a thing except what you like . For the thousand time , the most basic establishments of logic and reason say that everything caused has a cause . If you object on that then please don't have a conversation with sane people . And for the millionth time , knowing who the true God is comes after knowing that there is one . We believed in Islam because nothing else makes sense .
So stop trying to look like a knowledgeable man who has no time to waste and is inventing whatever one can think of . Saying some flashy terms doesn't add a value . And showing no manners when talking about the belief of other - thanks to the freedom of nonsense - only makes you look like a teenager suffering psychological disorders .

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Already went over this, there were other variants of Miller's experiment recently with the changed condition that were successful. You can't rely on Harun Yahya's book forever...
Already answered by someone other than me . And from experience with such empty bluffs , I can say for sure that they'd take anything unrelated and make it an evidence that must never be questioned . But I'll leave that to who knows better than me .

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Few examples. Allah telling Moses' followers to kill themselves (2:54), delicious cuisine magically falls from the sky (5:115), a staff turns into a serpent (7:107), Jonah gets swallowed by a fish and prays while inside (37:142), there are only seven heavenly bodies (2:29), etc etc
Facepalm , Facepalm , Facepalm , Facepalm , Facepalm , etc etc . Let's start from the last . The verse - O one who can't read Arabic OR English - says that there are seven heavens . You clearly either lied or copied whatever you saw from someone else . And who would object about prophet Yuunus - Jonah - being swallowed by a whale and survive and pray inside ? First , you need to know that praying can be with words only just to burst any bubble that might show up . And haven't you heard of a man who survives lightning twice ? Of a man who falls from above 10 floors and survives ? Aside from that , he's a prophet who has been protected by the mercy of Allah . Any objections ? And the staff , is it logically impossible for this to happen ? It seems you don't know what a miracle is - no surprise - and so your judgement is based on ignorance . The funny thing is that Atheists don't mind believing aliens created them or that we live in a matrix or that there are endless universes with minor differences in each - for example , in universe X I didn't have breakfast this morning ! - and then they have the nerve talk about what's illogical . And now the first one . If you bothered look at the context or any explanation that anyone can find on the internet , you would have known that this means for the innocents of them to kill the guilty . That was an order of Allah said by a prophet at his time . Any objection ?
So yes , as I always say : Whoever claims he opposes Islam because he knows it is actually among the most ignorant of it .

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Yes, individual ideas and being able to think for yourself is a wonderful thing, wouldn't you agree?
Great . So you agree you have no basis and that anyone can do whatever in the world he wants .

After that , you show the usual filth and scum of Earth street thugs like you puke everywhere . If you were in our forum , you would have been banned right away . And as usual , you try to escape answering anything that you don't like through attacking others . So yes , your disbelieve in God is based on emotional disorders . And as I said before , if you can't talk like someone civilized , don't talk at all .

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: The testimony of truth - The Garden of Eden from the serpent's perspective
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2013, 09:48:22 AM »
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1.Thank you for proving my point, did you read my previous post I said there are only two processes in the universe that are known to cause low entropy. Mind guided processes and physical laws( gravity, quantom mechanics, etc.,etc..) Darwinian Evolution doesn't fall under any of the two categories. Natural selection is not a mind guided process and it is not a natural law.

2.DO NOT try to force your interpretation of the Qur'an on me, I do not do it to you and I hope you can do the same for me.

3. The only thing I'm refuting is Darwinian Evolution, not God guided evolution. I have no stance on god guided evolution

Hello brother, thank you for your efforts on this forum. I just wanted to add an extremely important point. The basic idea of evolution is fact, there is no question. The mechanisms of evolution will be and will always be subject to change. This does not in any way hinder the fact that all species evolved, this is completely fact--it is as true as the Earth being round.


secondly, I believe the Quran is clear that we were created in a large and diverse process from non-human ancestors rather than an instant creation, but I respect your opinion.

God guided evolution is always a possibility, but when you think about it, an all-powerful God is not going to guide every mutation one by one or create every species one by one :P. He is going to let it do it by itself. We see this in the sustenance of the Earth, he is not directly sustaining the Earth and directly manipulating the water cycle, rather, he created the earth so that it does those things and sustains itself without his direct intervention. The water cycle and other cycles necessary for life occur and sustain the Earth by themselves. That is the Genius of Allah. This is the same way he created you, making the mutations occur without direct manipulation. I believe this supports our current mechanism of evolution that it is a natural process. 

So Allah creates a self-sustaining world and a self-sustaining universe in which we and other creatures like us could thrive in a balanced biosphere with diverse ecosystems in order to be tested and given the opportunity to succeed in here and the hereafter.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 09:51:12 AM by mclinkin94 »

Offline abdullah

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Re: The testimony of truth - The Garden of Eden from the serpent's perspective
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2013, 12:06:20 PM »
assalamualykum bro mclinkin

1. I also appreciate your efforts on this forum.

2. I don't (:

3.With all due respect, I strongly object to this claim that Allah doesn't sustain the universe. This is nonsensical and is not supported by the Quran and Sunnah. This belief seems semi-deistic. I think the problem is you are trying to understand the nature of god through reason. Reason can only get us to the point where we  100% know god exists. Revelation lets us know about the nature of god. One of the 99 names Of Allah(swt) is Al Mugith, which means the SUSTAINER. Science tells us how god does things not why. The two are recconcilable brother I ask you to reconsider your beliefs about the nature of god and base it off the sunnah and the Qur'an

4. How can evolution be a fact when it is irreconcilable with a fundamental law of nature. I think you think I object to evolution from a theological standpoint. No, I object to evolution because of science.

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: The testimony of truth - The Garden of Eden from the serpent's perspective
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2013, 04:04:35 PM »
assalamualykum bro mclinkin

1. I also appreciate your efforts on this forum.

2. I don't (:

3.With all due respect, I strongly object to this claim that Allah doesn't sustain the universe. This is nonsensical and is not supported by the Quran and Sunnah. This belief seems semi-deistic. I think the problem is you are trying to understand the nature of god through reason. Reason can only get us to the point where we  100% know god exists. Revelation lets us know about the nature of god. One of the 99 names Of Allah(swt) is Al Mugith, which means the SUSTAINER. Science tells us how god does things not why. The two are recconcilable brother I ask you to reconsider your beliefs about the nature of god and base it off the sunnah and the Qur'an

4. How can evolution be a fact when it is irreconcilable with a fundamental law of nature. I think you think I object to evolution from a theological standpoint. No, I object to evolution because of science.

I agree, Allah is the Sustainer. Just as when you make a car, Allah makes it! But he didn't directly make it, he indirectly made the car by making you. But in the end, Allah is the maker. So if Allah creates a world that is self-sustaining. Then who is the sustained of the world? Allah is! Just as you making the car, makes it Allah's creation!

I want to present a Quranic verse that alludes to the fact I just made above:

Quran 41:10-11 and He blessed it and determined therein its sustenance in four days without distinction - for [the information] of those who ask. Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being]

^In here you see that Allah has determined all the sustenance of the Earth in 4 days, then (after he determined the sustenance) he made the heavens and the earth to come into existence. So here is a case in which the sustenance of the Earth was determined before the creation of the Earth. In other words, Allah created a self-sustaining world which therefore makes him the sustainer of the world.

Here is another verse that nails it:

Quran 7:54 He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!

^Everything is governed by Allah laws. This Makes Allah the Sustainer. He set the laws in motion in a self-sustaining world and therefore he is the sustainer :)

Can you please explain how evolution is irreconcilable with the fundamental laws of nature?

Further if you don't mind, present to me a Quranic verse in which you think goes against evolution. Within my intellectual honesty, I see the Quran supporting evolution or at least the basic idea in which our collective creation involved stages, but can I have your opinion as to why it does not?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2013, 12:50:41 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline gandalf the white

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godless people dont hate religion, they actualy hate abrahamic religions cuz ive seen how they defend ancient religions. but they actualy dont know that their godlessism has some religous stuff in it and i'll leave that for them to find out but i'll give them one.

(mother nature) guess what religion belived in the whole nature beign somthing like a deity. and godless people, stop mixing all religions with christianity plz.

peace
« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 02:18:12 PM by gandalf the white »

Offline MuslimBoy

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Usually The Godless people are sick of Christianity and they hate it. And to defend themselves as right they frequently quote christian's REPRESENTATION of Islam which tells about their intelligence. In the whole process they seem to be hate Abrahamic religions. but they really love the Non-Abrahamic Religions probably because Unfortunately Christianity is a Abrahamic one.