Author Topic: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."  (Read 24828 times)

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Offline mclinkin94

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Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« on: June 01, 2013, 11:35:29 pm »
Here is the link to the article. It talks about the ancient sana manuscripts in yemen:

Edit: There are pictures in the above link but here it is:

“The Quran is a record of the exact words revealed by God through the Angel Gabriel to the Prophet Muhammad. It was memorized by Muhammad and then dictated to his Companions, and written down by scribes, who cross-checked it during his lifetime. Not one word of its 114 chapters, Suras, has been changed over the centuries, so that the Quran is in every detail the unique and miraculous text which was revealed to Muhammad fourteen centuries ago.” (www.islamicity.com, search for ‘What is the Qur`an?’; accessed 19 May 2011)

The fundamental Islamic belief that no word of the Quran has changed is put in question by a rather unique ancient manuscript, a palimpsest, known as ‘DAM 0 1-27.1.’1 It was discovered by Muslims in 1972 at the ancient Great Mosque of Sana'a in Yemen. According to the latest academic studies, aided by the use of ultraviolet photography, this palimpsest contains many differences when compared with today’s Arabic Quran. They range from different and missing words and dissimilar spelling to a changed order of Surahs and words within verses. The find is part of a bundle of parchments thought to be the oldest surviving copies of the Quran.

A palimpsest is a manuscript from which a text has been scraped or washed to make room for another one in order to re-use the expensive parchment. Such a process would normally only be done after several centuries. However, in the case of ‘DAM 0 1-27.1’ it took place within the first century of the ‘Hijrah’ (7th and early 8th century AD), shortly after the Uthmanic recension. This is confirmed by the fact that the primary writings that reappeared and the secondary ones that followed, including the corrections of both, were found to be made in the ‘Hijazi’ style of the first Islamic century. The characteristic, irregular lines of that particular style exist in all the four above mentioned developmental stages of the text.

1. The Evidence

The palimpsest known as ‘DAM 0 1-27.1’ contains at least 38 Quran leaves. They were each written on parchment with an approximate size of 36.5 x 28.5 cm. Since on the majority of the leaves a primary text is visible and both texts contain parts of over 70 % of today’s Quran, the palimpsest must be a remnant of two, previously complete, yet different Qurans. ‘Folio 16r’2 below contains Surah 9:70-80 in the less visible primary writing and Surah 30:26-40 in the better visible secondary writing. The numbers on the right side of the image written in cursive type refer to the lines of the earlier, primary text. The normal ones identify the lines in the later, secondary text.

In the following examples, changed words from the primary writing are compared with the Standard text (StT). These changes represent only a very small part of a much bigger, in-depth analysis conducted by Dr E. Puin.3



2. Examples

A. Several words are missing within a paragraph leading to a different meaning:4



Sahih International translation: ‘… (if) they turn away, Allah will punish them with a painful punishment in this world and the Hereafter. And there will not be for them on earth (any protector or helper.)



Sana'a manuscript, ‘DAM 0 1-27.1’, translation: ‘… (if) they turn away, Allah will punish them in this world. And there will not be for them on earth (any protector or helper.)

The finishing letter, ‘Alif’, in ‘yatawallaw’, ‘they turn away’, found in today’s standard text of the Quran is missing in the early manuscript under discussion, as indicated by the empty box with a black frame above. Moreover, in the the verb ‘yu’addibhum’, ‘he (Allah) will punish them’, found on ‘Fol. 16r, Z.13’, is not explained with ‘adaban aliman’, ‘with a painful punishment’, as in the Standard Text (StT). There one finds ‘fi‘l-dunya wa-‘l-ahirati’, ‘in this world and in the Hereafter.’ The Sana'a manuscript contains only ‘in this world’ and therefore fits better with the end of the verse in both versions: ‘And there will not be for them on earth any protector or helper.’

B. Words are different from today’s Quran:5



The shaded area above indicates uncertainty. Instead of the word ‘gahannnamu,’ ‘hell’, found in the Standard Text, the old manuscript version contains the synonym ‘l-naru’, ‘the fire’, found in the box with the interrupted frame. It is almost identical with a parallel text found in today’s Surah 24:57:



The word ‘yaqsimuna’ in the old manuscript, found in the box with the interrupted frame above, has been replaced by the different, yet synonymous, ‘yahlifuna’, ‘they swear,’ in today’s Quran. The words that follow, crossed with horizontal lines, have been reconstructed with certainty. Behind the ‘Kaf’ of ‘kalimat’, ‘(the) word’, a part of the manuscript is missing. The grey, shaded area indicates uncertainty about the original word. The room left on the parchment allows only for ‘(ka)limata ‘l kufri’, ‘(the) word (of) the disbelief’. The next line in the manuscript starts with ‘wahammu bima lam yanalu’. Therefore, the phrase ‘wakafaru baʿda is'lāmihim’, ‘and disbelieved after their (pretense of) Islam’,6 is only found in the today’s Standard Text. The three words missing in the text form used by the old manuscript are again indicated by the white box with the black frame.

Whereas the secondary text of the examined palimpsest comes close to the content of today’s Quran, it is still not 100% identical. None of the numerous changes under discussion are mentioned in the Qirâ'ât literature that is concerned mostly with methods of pronunciation used in the recitations of the Qur'an. The changes are also different from those found in the collections of the Quran by Ibn Mas’ud, known primarily for the absence of Surah 1, 113 and 114, and Ubay bin Ka’b who listed two additional Surahs.7

3. Questions of Muslims answered

A. Why should we listen to Western Orientalist scholars who are known to be against Islam?

Sadly there are not many other scholars who dare to approach the sensitive subject of early Quranic manuscripts in an objective manner. A notable exception was Dr Nasr Abu Zaid, formerly a lecturer in Koranic Studies at Cairo University.8 He argued that the Quran is a literary text which needs to be examined through a literary approach. The highest court in Egypt ruled in 1995 that he was an apostate and therefore his marriage was annulled.

Salim Abdullah, director of the German Islamic Archives, affiliated to the powerful pan-Islamic Muslim World League, is open to critical research too, saying: “I am longing for this kind of discussion on this topic.”9

Since, for the above mentioned reasons, currently no other scholars have done as detailed a research as Dr E. Puin, Saarbrücken, Germany, on the palimpsest ‘DAM 0 1-27.1’, there was no other option available then the one chosen. However, other eminent scholars have examined different manuscripts and reached the same conclusion that the Quran has a history of textual development.10

B. Was it just a bad copy used by those whom the Uthmanic text had not yet reached?

There are several problems with such an assumption:

1.     The palimpsest ‘DAM 0 1-27.1’ has been proven to actually contain four different Qurans: A complete primary and secondary text, and both showing later corrections. Therefore we are not just dealing with one but four ‘bad copies’ within the first Islamic century. If the Uthmanic text had not yet reached the mosque, upon what basis were the corrections of the two different texts made?

2.     The Great Mosque of Sana’a where the manuscripts were found was built in the 6th year of the Hijrah by one of Muhammad’s companions.11 It was a centre of Islamic learning and as such must have been supplied with Uthman’s text immediately and urgently, since the Qurans found in any mosques have naturally been in use among the Muslims.

3.     Since even the secondary text with the corrections does not resemble the Uthmanic text 100%, the question arises as to why it was not corrected when the ‘Authorized Version’ arrived? To keep a different Quran in an Islamic centre of learning is a recipe for passing on false teachings.

4. Where do we go from here?

It has become clear that the Quran is not a record of the exact words revealed by God. Instead, the palimpsest, known as ‘DAM 0 1-27.1,’ demonstrates clearly that the holy book of Muslims has gone through stages of historical developments. There are at least three ways people can respond to these facts:

A. Anger

There is a right kind of anger, when people are treated unjustly or God’s will is misrepresented and neglected. While the world could definitely do with more of that kind of righteous anger expressed in productive ways, uncontrolled rage fueled by self-interest is sadly much more common. It is fully understandable that people resent a change of thought about what in many ways lies at the very heart of their faith and society. However, if painstaking examination of evidence has proven certain dearly held beliefs to be false then it would be foolishness to stubbornly hold on to them, just because one has always done so. Change never comes easy but it is better to bring a painful end to lies than to keep on living in the pain of deception without end.

B. Ignorance

Some people decide to turn a blind eye on the facts discussed so far. They try to live in denial and carry on as usual. After all, it has been rather comfortable so far, so they think. Such individuals and communities act a bit like someone who has lived in a small room for a long time. They will be happy with it until they realize that other people live in a spacious house. The truth that the Quran has been changed, not just in transmission but in the actual text as well, has far reaching, potentially life-changing implications.

C. Jesus

Lastly, the third way people can respond to the findings of this academic research is Jesus. He says about himself literally, “I am the way and the truth and the life.”12 He is the answer to the prayer Muslims are to perform five times every day, saying: ‘Show us the straight way, the way of those on whom you have bestowed your Grace…’ Jesus did not say, ‘I am showing you the way into Christianity.’ He simply says, ‘I am the way.’ Eternal life in paradise comes from following him alone. It happens by grace, by an undeserved favour. Jesus wants us to turn around from our old ways and put our faith in him and what he has done for us on the cross. He does not ask people to abandon the good aspects of their culture or to embrace the sinful parts of a Western lifestyle. God will give us the power to be like Jesus in whatever situation we find ourselves in.

Jesus is not only the way but he is also the living word of God. The Quran calls him uniquely, ‘Kalimatullah’ – ‘The Word of God’ (Surah 4:171; cf. Revelation 19:13 & John 1); it is identical with God. The Bible is about Jesus. Many articles have been written to show that it is still trustworthy.13 However, the standard and definition by which the Holy Scriptures of the people of the Book has been revealed and preserved is different from the one given hundreds of years later by Muslims. Whoever examines the Bible on its own terms, praying earnestly and with an open heart for guidance will be blessed. I invite you to do so through a simple e-mail correspondence course. Please contact me to get the first of six lessons.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 04:46:05 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2013, 01:35:51 am »
How many times do we need to tell you , DON'T put links of these sites ! Can't you copy and paste them here ? Do you want more people to be misguided by these garbage dumps ? God helps .

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2013, 11:53:49 am »
How many times do we need to tell you , DON'T put links of these sites ! Can't you copy and paste them here ? Do you want more people to be misguided by these garbage dumps ? God helps .

Just to be clear, I don't want people to be misguided. I want people to see rebuttals to most of Answering-Islam's lies.

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2013, 04:49:19 pm »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers,

Per brother 'Black Muslim' request, I have removed the link.  This hogwash nonsense had been thoroughly refuted at:

www.islamic-awareness.org  (by far, the best Islamic website when it comes to the History of the Holy Quran's Preservation)

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac3.htm#links

Brother, the so-called manuscripts in Yemen are used out of desperation by the anti-Islamics.  These are remnants of the misspelled Qurans and the altered ones that Caliph Uthman would've burnt.  The Quran Scholars that compiled the Holy Book and wrote it with their own blessed hands is in our possessions.  Anything found in remote lands, such as Yemen, Iraq, Iran or what have you are copies, and they do contain errors.  They are not originals.  The Quran that was compiled and what we have today did not original from Yemen, dear brother.

I love the title "The end of the Quran as we know it".  Perhaps the desperate and phony anti-Islamic should consider a title of "The end of praised pornography in the Bible as we know it".  Of course I am being sarcastic, because the Bible does praise pornography.

And what about the history of the Bible's compilation??  Man, if these people are only 10% critical of the Bible as they are of the Holy Quran, then I don't see how using their own logic they would not disown the Bible!  I mean, some lousy found scrolls in Yemen that are only a copy of some of the Holy Quran is the end of our Holy Quran as we know it, simply because they contain misspellings and some missing words constitutes the end of our Holy Book, but the overwhelming amount of contradictions and fables and corruptions, and praised pornography in the Bible don't mean a thing to these people??

Also, Abdallah bin Sabaa' and other Jews who fought Islam originated from Yemen.  So these scrolls could very very well be doctored copies ON PURPOSE.

Here is the bottom line dear brother:  The Original and real Scrolls of the Holy Quran came from Madina, and we have them!  I even have a picture of them in one of the links that is in the section that I gave above.  Everything outside of this belongs to the fire.  Like I said, Caliph Uthman would've happily burnt these (possibly doctored) scrolls from Yemen.

I hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah


Offline Egyptian

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2013, 04:52:26 pm »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers,


guess what is the most misleading thing in the whole article? is it his claims of quranic textual development?

not really !!      rather it is the way he concluded his article !!!...

the writer directed the people to respond to his findings of his amazing research! by believing that Jesus is the way and the truth and the life.and that Eternal life in paradise comes from following him alone.

in other words ,he wishes the people reject a book (Quran) with minor textual variants(as he suggests),and later accept a book (new testament) that is plagued with huge textual variants .....

good deal isn't it?!!!

......................

now for the Sanaa manuscript .....I didn't read all of the following rebuttal , but you can take a look,any comments are welcomed.. .....

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/soth.html


Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2013, 07:44:53 pm »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers,

Per brother 'Black Muslim' request, I have removed the link.  This hogwash nonsense had been thoroughly refuted at:

www.islamic-awareness.org  (by far, the best Islamic website when it comes to the History of the Holy Quran's Preservation)

http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac3.htm#links

Brother, the so-called manuscripts in Yemen are used out of desperation by the anti-Islamics.  These are remnants of the misspelled Qurans and the altered ones that Caliph Uthman would've burnt.  The Quran Scholars that compiled the Holy Book and wrote it with their own blessed hands is in our possessions.  Anything found in remote lands, such as Yemen, Iraq, Iran or what have you are copies, and they do contain errors.  They are not originals.  The Quran that was compiled and what we have today did not original from Yemen, dear brother.

I love the title "The end of the Quran as we know it".  Perhaps the desperate and phony anti-Islamic should consider a title of "The end of praised pornography in the Bible as we know it".  Of course I am being sarcastic, because the Bible does praise pornography.

And what about the history of the Bible's compilation??  Man, if these people are only 10% critical of the Bible as they are of the Holy Quran, then I don't see how using their own logic they would not disown the Bible!  I mean, some lousy found scrolls in Yemen that are only a copy of some of the Holy Quran is the end of our Holy Quran as we know it, simply because they contain misspellings and some missing words constitutes the end of our Holy Book, but the overwhelming amount of contradictions and fables and corruptions, and praised pornography in the Bible don't mean a thing to these people??

Also, Abdallah bin Sabaa' and other Jews who fought Islam originated from Yemen.  So these scrolls could very very well be doctored copies ON PURPOSE.

Here is the bottom line dear brother:  The Original and real Scrolls of the Holy Quran came from Madina, and we have them!  I even have a picture of them in one of the links that is in the section that I gave above.  Everything outside of this belongs to the fire.  Like I said, Caliph Uthman would've happily burnt these (possibly doctored) scrolls from Yemen.

I hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

But the sana's scrolls are dated to be older than Uthman's copies. The Christians use that to show that Uthman changed the original Quran. We need to address this part. 

I understand the hypocrisy in the answering-islam article, but showing how the bible is corrupted (as it is obvious) doesn't make the Quran un-corrupted.

Like how the article talks about for example:

"jahanam (hell)" and the other text says "al-nar (hell-fire) for the same verse.

I am just trying to understand so far.

To summarize the Christian arguments:

On Sana'a: Firstly, Sana'a has a different chronology to Uthman, showing that ayats and surahs have been changed around from their original place.
= Corruption

Secondly, a variety of ayats themselves are different - in length, language, and meaning. = Corruption

Remember that the Sana'a manuscripts are earlier than Uthman's Qu'ran


2) There are many Non-Arab words in the Qu'ran, showing its human development in terms of language rather than being divine Arabic revelation - Youtube.com/watch?v=GqlrsJhuZ2g
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 08:23:47 pm by mclinkin94 »

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2013, 08:51:45 pm »
Quote
But the sana's scrolls are dated to be older than Uthman's copies. The Christians use that to show that Uthman changed the original Quran. We need to address this part. 

There is no proof that the Sana scrolls are older.  And even if they were, then this still wouldn't mean a thing.  Let me break it down for you dear brother:

1-  The Islam came down to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, started in Mecca.

2-  Many Noble Verses were revealed there.

3-  Then the Prophet and Muslims migrated to Madina.

4-  Many Noble Verses were revealed there.

So far, do you see Yemen being relevant here?  No.

5-  The Muslims from both Mecca and Madina had copies and scrolls of the Holy Quran.

6-  Much of the Holy Quran was compiled during Caliph Abu Bakr's times, and Caliph Umar's times.

7-  As Islam had spread to Yemen, Iraq, Persia, and much of Rome's lands, and Africa, many copies of the Holy Quran were written in those lands.

8-  Caliph Uthman ordered for an OFFICIAL COPY of the Quran to be made.

9-  Caliph Uthman ordered for all of the copies of the Quran to be gathered from all the Muslims, both local and abroad.

10-  Caliph Uthman ordered for the top and best Quran memorizers to form a committee and write an official copy of the Holy Book.

11-  A committee was made, and the scholars wrote what WE CALL TODAY UTHMAN'S SCROLLS (i.e., the Holy Quran that we have today).

Again, do you see Yemen here having any relevance?  No.

12-  Caliph Uthman ordered for all other copies (scrolls) to be burnt.  Yemen's scroll apparently didn't make it to Madina to be executed.  Otherwise, it would've.

-- OR --

THIS WHOLE SCROLL IS A JEWISH AND PAGANS' LIE TO create a different quran from the one that was already compiled.  Either way, this Yemen or Sana scroll belongs to the fire.

Any questions?

Quote
2) There are many Non-Arab words in the Qu'ran, showing its human development in terms of language rather than being divine Arabic revelation - Youtube.com/watch?v=GqlrsJhuZ2g

First of all, this video starts out with an absurd claim that the Quran is of a non-Arabic origin.  Basic common sense here, if the Quran was revealed to non-Arabs, then how did the Arabs understand it??  Many Middle Eastern words had been Arabized throughout the history of the Arabic language.  This is true with all languages on earth.  Many words are shared among multiple languages.  This is nothing new.  I have just posted a response to his video with the following comment:

"From 4:37 and onward, where did you come up with the absurd idea that the Holy Quran is entirely made of foreign words? It was revealed in Arabic and to the Arabs. The Arabs had 360+ pagan tribes. The Arabic language that they spoke was divided into 7 different dialects. The Meccan Arabic dialect was the Qurashi dialect. And this is the dialect and Arabic that the Holy Quran was revealed in.
   
You presented nothing but a desperate nonsense from the polytheist trinitarian pagans."


The infidels are too desperate.  They can go and get lost to Hell where they belong.  The Holy Quran has been proven:

1-  To be perfectly preserved through manuscripts, careful and thorough memerization of the Holy Book, and through our modern-day computers by demonstrating Its Overwhelming Numerical Miracles.  Please visit:

www.islamic-awareness.org
www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links
www.answering-christianity.com/ac3.htm#links

2-  To contain overwhelming Scientific Miracles in It.  Again, visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

Do any of the anti-Islam infidels have anything close to any of this?  Absolutely not!  Their scriptures had no been memorized by many.  Their scriptures had not been preserved in writing.  And their scriptures contain ample historical and textual contradictions and errors and fables.  And their scriptures contain ample praised pornography.

Any questions, dear brother?  The doomed-to-Hell infidels can go Hell.  They have nothing on Islam.  And again, if they only apply 10% or even 5% of their nonsense on their scriptures, then they must also reject their corrupt scriptures.  This goes by the way to pretty much ALL OF THE RELIGIONS THAT EXIST ON THIS EARTH!  With the exception of our Cherished and Beloved Islam of course.

And I would like to finish off the infidels' ridiculous and desperate lies by presenting the following Miracle:



I hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Osama Abdallah

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2013, 10:25:24 pm »
Many Middle Eastern words had been Arabized.

Thank you brother Osama on that detailed post:

But I'm just a little lost in one part. If words have been Arabized and inserted in the Quran (as they claim), doesn't that mean the Quran would be corrupted? And even more detrimental statement would be, "the scientific accuracies of the Quran have been inserted".

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2013, 11:03:53 pm »
Many Middle Eastern words had been Arabized.

Thank you brother Osama on that detailed post:

But I'm just a little lost in one part. If words have been Arabized and inserted in the Quran (as they claim), doesn't that mean the Quran would be corrupted? And even more detrimental statement would be, "the scientific accuracies of the Quran have been inserted".

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,

I have just updated my response above.  Please take a look at it and feel free to post more questions.

May Allah Almighty bless you!  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2013, 11:50:44 pm »
Thank you brother Osama and Al-hamdulilah!

But lets assume for a second that the Sana scrolls are not from Yemen (I know it is a weird assumption) and are from Madina :

Does it vary that much from the original Qur'an? Or are these variances so small that they could just be errors or dialect problems? Meaning, does it contradict the Quran? and would it show that the Quran has not been preserved?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 01:53:18 am by mclinkin94 »

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2013, 05:14:59 am »
Quote
Just to be clear, I don't want people to be misguided. I want people to see rebuttals to most of Answering-Islam's lies.
Good , just do it without advertising for them .
Quote
in other words ,he wishes the people reject a book (Quran) with minor textual variants(as he suggests),and later accept a book (new testament) that is plagued with huge textual variants .....
good deal isn't it?!!!
What are you saying Egyptian ? The variants in the Bible are to suit the tastes of all kinds of people , be a little more open minded  :)
Of course this was sarcasm .
Quote
There are many Non-Arab words in the Qu'ran, showing its human development in terms of language rather than being divine Arabic revelation
I would have put the picture of "Are you serious" but it got old . So let me get this straight : I'm watching the news in Arabic , but the anchorman said باراك أوباما فاز بالانتخابات = "Barak Obama won the elections" , now , you don't find the word "Obama" in the Arabic dictionaries , does that mean the news were corrupted ?! "And give me your brain and walk bare feet" (Egyptian should understand it) .
And I would like to say that their claims the Quran was altered are hilarious . Here are some examples :
1 - They say Quran was altered because in some of the books the surah of Baqarah (Cow) is called (The chapter of children of Israel) . If you don't know about Quran you would be decieved , but if you know you'd laugh ! A chapter in Quran can have multiple names . The chapter of Al-Faihah (Opener or Opening) is also called "The seven repeated ones" because we read it in every prayer , and "The mother of Quran" for its great importance in prayer , but do you find a single letter changed ? No you don't . That's why I laugh at them ! To make you understand more , I have a friend whom we call by many names , there's his first name , his last name , and a nickname of "Ghost" because he's like a ghost when we play soccer (Say : Masha'a Allah :)) but according to their logic , we should stand up and shout "This man was altered and corrupted !" Does that make sense ?
2 - Another example is when they see different shapes of Masahif (The book which contains Quran) , they see  a green one and a small one , they shout "Corruption !" they see a big one and small one and shout "Corruption !" and so on . Hilarious don't you think :) ?
3 - A third example is when they DO find differences , but what kind of differences ? Differences in translations that is ! He goes "The English Quran contains differences from the Arabic" and I go "And who told you there is something called an English Quran ? It's a TRANSLATION ! When someone makes a mistake , we grab him by the ear and say (Don't do it again) . We have the original text untouched . According to your logic , EVERY book is corrupted because it gets translate !"
You see what I mean ?
God knows best .

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2013, 11:04:08 am »
Thank you Black Muslim.

Were the non-arabic loanwords used in the Quran recognized as Arabic (in the Arabic dictionary) before the Quran?

Also:

But lets assume for a second that the Sana scrolls are not from Yemen (I know it is a weird assumption) and are from Madina :

Does it vary that much from the original Qur'an? Or are these variances so small that they could just be errors or dialect problems? Meaning, does it contradict the Quran? and would it show that the Quran has not been preserved?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 11:10:24 am by mclinkin94 »

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2013, 01:14:47 pm »
Quote
Were the non-arabic loanwords used in the Quran recognized as Arabic (in the Arabic dictionary) before the Quran?

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,

First of all, as an Arab and a Muslim, I believe it is wrong to call the Arabic Words that exist in both Arabic and other languages as "loanwords".  I mean, how do the infidels know that the words weren't of Arabic origin and were borrowed from Arabic into other Middle Eastern sister languages, and then as time passed the words were modified? 

I once read a story about some of the pagans approached the Prophet to mock him on using words that weren't popular among them.  They were words of very old Arabic, and were considered as foreign words by some.  In the midst of their mocking, an old man approached the Prophet, peace be upon him, and used the exact word that they were mocking the Prophet on.  It turned out, the word was indeed Arabic.  May be brother Egyptian can shed more light upon this story.  I'll find it and post it here, insha'Allah.

The following articles contain detailed refutations:

http://muslimmatters.org/2008/05/21/the-arabic-quran-and-foreign-words/

http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/the_qur_an_s_pure_arabic_and_the_presence_of_foreign_words__by_ansar_al__adl

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/vowel.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarifications-about-islam/32656-does-quran-have-foreign-syriac-words.html

There is no proof that the words, which are extremely few anyway, originated from non-Arabic languages.  Plus, did Arabic even exist since Eternity?  Probably not.  Mankind has developed his languages as he intellectually developed and seperated into tribes and nations:

[030:022]  Among His signs are the creation of the heavens and the earth, the diversity of your languages and the variety of your skin color. In that are surely signs for those with (reason and) knowledge.

[049:013]  Oh you people! We have certainly created you from one man, and a woman. Then We (multiplied you and) formed you into nations and tribes, (just) so you may identify and recognize each other. Indeed, according to Allah the nobler among you is (none other than) the one who fears Allah the most! Indeed, Allah is all-Knowing and well-Aware of everything.

The desperation and absurdity of the infidels is amazing.

Also brother, if you visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm, you'll find an image of my Encyclopedic Arabic dictionaries:



Every single Arabic word is listed there.  And yes, every single Holy Quran Word is also there as well.  Not only that, but these encyclopedic dictionaries give the definitions of the words, sayings, poems and quotes that the word had been used in from the Arabs of old before and after Islam, some of the Noble Verses and Hadiths that the words exist in.  Some of these dictionaries are also available online at:

http://www.baheth.info/index.jsp

So if you learn Arabic someday, and can read some of the Holy Quran, try to copy and paste some of the Noble Words in the Holy Book in this online search engine, and see the VERY THOROUGH AND DETAILED definitions and usages of the Noble Words before and after Islam with ample definitions and quotes.  They'll show you how the words were used in poems, sayings of old Arabs, Sayings of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, in the Hadiths, and also in the Holy Quran as well.

Quote
But lets assume for a second that the Sana scrolls are not from Yemen (I know it is a weird assumption) and are from Madina :

Does it vary that much from the original Qur'an? Or are these variances so small that they could just be errors or dialect problems? Meaning, does it contradict the Quran? and would it show that the Quran has not been preserved?

I read some of those scrolls before in articles that were sent to me.  Brother, the differences are misspellings of Noble Words (missing "the" article for instance, missing letter, or even missing vowels), or missing Words in the scrolls (they would exist in our Holy Quran but not in the scroll, or vise versa).

But this was one of the main reasons why Caliph Uthman ordered the writing an official copy of the Holy Quran, akhi (brother).  As the Holy Quran was revealed, the ordering of the Noble Verses and Noble Surahs was still in the works.  So it's easy for Noble Verses to get mixed up together, or for them to be partial from one scroll to the other.  This is why the offficial copy of the Holy Quran was ordered, and it was the top Quran Scholars and memorizers who wrote the Holy Book after compiling it.  Not just mere men.

I hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2013, 04:47:06 pm »
Thank you brother Osama for that detailed response!

I think there would be a detail I need to know that may crystallize everything:

Was the Quran revealed in chapters? or verses? Meaning when Gabriel (as) went to Mohammad (pbuh), did he give him entire chapters of the Quran, or portions of chapters?

If he gave Mohammad (pbuh) portions of chapters and THEN Mohammad and his companions ordered the chapters and VERSES the right way, then the Sana scripts deviations are explained for.

I think this is my problem. I will look around the internet and see if I could find anything.

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Re: Rebuttal Needed: "The end of the Quran..."
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2013, 06:12:45 pm »
Thank you brother Osama for that detailed response!

I think there would be a detail I need to know that may crystallize everything:

Was the Quran revealed in chapters? or verses? Meaning when Gabriel (as) went to Mohammad (pbuh), did he give him entire chapters of the Quran, or portions of chapters?

If he gave Mohammad (pbuh) portions of chapters and THEN Mohammad and his companions ordered the chapters and VERSES the right way, then the Sana scripts deviations are explained for.

I think this is my problem. I will look around the internet and see if I could find anything.

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,

You have now come to my favorite area, which is the Miraculous Text of the Glorious Quran, and the Great Number 19 Miracle, which Allah Almighty called "One of the Greates Ones (Miracles)" in Noble Verses 74:30-37.  Please visit:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm

Let me break it down for you in the following points, insha'Allah:

1-  The Glorious Quran was revealed in Noble Verses.  And as I've shown above from the Glorious Quran, the Prophet was commanded to be master the recitation of the Glorious Quran very well, and to not rush into it.

2-  The Names of the Surahs (Names of the Noble Chapters), their numbers and sequences, and the Noble Verses that each one of them contain, and the sequences of those Noble Verses were all dictated to the Prophet from Angel Gabriel, peace be upon both of them:

‏75:16 لاتحرك به لسانك لتعجل به
‏75:17 ان علينا جمعه وقرانه
‏75:18 فاذا قراناه فاتبع قرانه
‏75:19 ثم ان علينا بيانه


[075:016]  Move not thy tongue concerning the (Quran) to make haste therewith.
[075:017]  It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:
[075:018]  But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated):
[075:019]  Nay more, it is for Upon Us to explain it (and make it clear):


And the ordering of the Holy Quran was done on the spot.  This is how Muslims:

(a)-  Were able to memorize the Holy Quran, and also write It down on paper.

(b)-  Read the Holy Quran throughout the five daily sets of Prayers.  The Imam (Prayer Leader) must read portions of the Holy Quran in every Prayer, and continue with this until he reaches the end of the Holy Book, and then he would start all over again, and so on.  It's a daily cycle of reciting the Holy Quran in Prayer.

(c)-  Read the entire Holy Quran during the Holy Month of Ramadan.

The recitation of the Holy Quran is something done on daily basis.  This is how the memorization of the Holy Book became possible, and Its Preservation was done beautifully and perfectly.  This is also why we throw in the trash any fabricated narrations about so-called missing verses or missing surahs.  It's easy for a hypocrite or a liar who wants Islam destroyed to spew a statement like this and write it down.  But it's entirely a different thing if he would actually present the TEXT of the alleged missing verses.  You'll notice that they often don't.

There is one narration that says a verse was missing, which speaks about if an old man and an old woman commit fornication, then they must be flogged.  But we know this is a lie, because the Holy Quran has the Noble Verse that speaks about the man and woman who are guilty of fornication, they must be flogged 100 stripes in public:

[024:002]  The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allahs Law).

Another proof that the fabricated verse about the old man and old woman being a lie is the choice of the Arabic words.  THE FABRICATED VERSE SAYS "AL-SHAYKH WA AL-SHAYKHA".  SHAYKH in Arabic means elder, or leader or chief.  It is also given as a title for an Islamic Scholar.  But the word doesn't mean OLD!  The Arabic word for OLD is KAHL, not SHAYKH!  I know some Arabs loosly use shaykh in reference to old person, but in the classical and original Arabic it doesn't mean old person.  It means a chief or an elder.

3-  The Holy Quran's Text is amazingly Miraculous!  The spelling of the Noble Words is some in a precise way, and they varry in spelling depending on their historical context.  Yet, their Numerical values, when added, come to be perfect.  I am currently translating a 653-page book that gives 100s of examples of this.  It'll be done by the end of this year, insha'Allah.  I've discussed this in much deeper details at:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/100_percent_guarantee_that_quran_is_divine.htm

I hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah