Author Topic: The names Ahmed and Mohammed in Jewish document that predates Prophet Mohammed ?  (Read 3143 times)

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Offline Idris

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As-Salam aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,

two days ago, while browsing the contents of Hebrew books in Google I came across an interesting document which is called Zohar (perhaps some of you did heard about it before since it is commonly known in Jewish literature). The author of the original work was a 2nd-century Rabbi named Shimon bar Yohai. Generaly speaking, this work include a commentary on the mystical aspects of the Torah and scriptural interpretations as well.

I simply typed in Hebrew נביא אחמד בישעיהו (i.e. prophet Ahmed in Isaiah) and it suddenly showed up to me a 1559 edition of Zohar by Vicenzo Conti.

עלך ותאנא מאי דכתיב שוש אשיש בה' בעהיק יומין אחמד דהא הוא חדוותא ישעיה ס נדכלא 'האבא בשעחא דאתנלי תאי אורחא דדיקנ'ד עתיק יומין כלחו מארי

The text however, is writen in difficult and obscure way (even scholars has observed). There is an abvious error in בעהיק where ת was wrongly mistook as ה

You can put this Hebrew text into Google translator if you wish.

Link: https://books.google.pl/books?id=O3zTOfAWdagC&pg=PT635&dq=%D7%91%D7%94%27%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%94%D7%99%D7%A7+%D7%99%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%9F+%D7%90%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%93+%D7%93%D7%94%D7%90+%D7%94%D7%95%D7%90+%D7%97%D7%93%D7%95%D7%95%D7%AA%D7%90+Sim%C3%A9on+bar+Yohay&hl=pl&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%D7%A2%D7%9C%D7%9A%20%D7%95%D7%AA%D7%90%D7%A0%D7%90%20%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%99%20%D7%93%D7%9B%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%91%20%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%A9%20%D7%90%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A9%20%D7%91%D7%94%27%D7%91%D7%A2%D7%94%D7%99%D7%A7%20%D7%99%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%9F%20%D7%90%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%93%20%D7%93%D7%94%D7%90%20%D7%94%D7%95%D7%90%20%D7%97%D7%93%D7%95%D7%95%D7%AA%D7%90%20%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%94%20%D7%A1%20%D7%A0%20%D7%93%D7%9B%D7%9C%D7%90%20%27%D7%94%D7%90%D7%91%D7%90%20%D7%91%D7%A9%D7%A2%D7%97%D7%90%20%D7%93%D7%90%D7%AA%D7%A0%D7%9C%D7%99%20%D7%AA%D7%90%D7%99%20%D7%90%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%90%20%D7%93%D7%93%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%A0%27%D7%93%D7%A2%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%A7%20%D7%99%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%9F%20%D7%9B%D7%9C%D7%97%D7%95%20%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%99&f=false

Unfortunately, I ’am not able to understand all of the Hebrew text, since as I've said it is written in a difficult way, but I can recognize the words: כתיב (it is written), בה' בעהיק יומין (through/by him in ancient of days), אחמד (ahmad), ישעיה (Isaiah), and כלחו (sent ?). Now, it is interesting to note that the two expressions תיק יומין in the entire Old Testament appears only in Daniel 7:9 and 7:13 in connection with the Son of Man (literally = ben Adam = Son of Adam) who was to be presented before the Throne of God. It can be only prophet Mohammed (pbuh) and no one else! So, the fact of using such specific words standing together is a curious indication that could reveal the shocking truth behind this Zohar book which according to some scholars is the same book that was disappeared 1,800 years ago, and after long time was discovered in Spanish in 13th cent.

Sounds exciting isn't ? For this reason I have asked a Rabbi Ben Abrahamson to help us explain what the text says, I'am waiting for his answer.

Also, if you type מחמד (Mohammed) it will suprisingly show one result, and it is in ספר דברים (Deuteronomy) ! Subhanallah!

The natural reaction of a typical Jew or Christian who hates any relationship with Islam and Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) in their scripture will be that: he will try to disprove the authenticity of any document which can testify to the prophethood of Mohammed and reliability of his advent from the Bible in general. Perhaps that’s why aroused so much controversy around this document between Jewish and Christian scholars. Those who dislike Islam, when read this Zohar book, begin to understand that these words אחמד and מחמד makes a danger allusion to the Arabic names Ahmed and Mohammed, and they are afraid that in the near future some Muslim will find it. It is quite possible.

I will write more about this topic insha'Allah when I'll get new info.

Take care, and salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Wa Alaikum As'salam Wa Rahmatu Allah Wa Barakatuh dear brother Idris,

May Allah Almighty greatly bless you for your research, akhi.  Masha'Allah, as always, your work is of great quality!  Keep up the great work, akhi.  I am sorry for forgetting to backup the images that you requested earlier.  I completely forgot about them.  I will do that tomorrow, insha'Allah.

I will also link your findings in this thread to www.answering-christianity.com/predict.htm and elsewhere, insha'Allah.

Take care akhi,
Osama Abdallah

Offline iknowi

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I've been looking into Ahmadiyya Islam, do you think the reference to Ahmed could suggest the prophethood of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian? (That's there prophet).

I've been reading Mirza Ghulam's book and i think he is sincere, his book is actually quite amazing (the philosophy of the teachings of Islam), although even if he is sincere i'm not sure if he is really a prophet, Ahmadiyyas interpret Khatamun Nabiyaan differently.

Anyhow, i still recommend everyone, and i mean EVERYONE read that book. Dont get it confused with another one of similar title. It's really that good.

Offline iknowi

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For those who dont know there is a small sect where they believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the prophesized Imam Mahdi, and he was apparently assigned actual prophethood (thats the only way to make an impact).

Offline Idris

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Salam aleikum,

No, its not about Mirza Ghulam, the Jews knew only one Ahmed from "ancient days" and in their hope they called him Messiah by which they undestood the Last Prophet of God who will establish the kingdom of God on earth (Islam). The Hebrew term מָשִׁיחַ (moshiach) means “anointed." In Biblical Hebrew, this expression precisely was bestowed on a person who had attained a position of nobility, greatness, someone who acquired a high status of authority. In Rabbinic literature the title Moshiach is reserved for the chosen leader who will be a savior to Israel in the Last Times. That long awaited Messiah in Jewish eyes is not Jesus (pbuh) as some could argue, since this Messiah was to be a powerful Messenger, a warrior who will take victory over all his enemies.

Take care,
Ahmed

Offline khdrb

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Zohar is for kabbalists , some kind of magix and control, those who uses it are using it to play with the balances to be the top of the world, and to absorb the re-actions of the big sins they are making, they are now studying what is the re-action for any action they will make and make a ready plan in how to absorb it....

jews( hood ) in the Quran is an adjective not a tribe or a race... those people who make big sins and repent in the critical time or situation and tries to absorb the re-actions of their actions to stay alive. sabaeans is an adjective also for who leaves their fathers religion. christians ( nasara ) the supporters, hopefully in the cause of the only God.

dear brother IDRIS you are really IDRIS XD

Offline Idris

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Wa Alaikum As'salam Wa Rahmatu Allah Wa Barakatuh dear brother Idris,

I am sorry for forgetting to backup the images that you requested earlier.  I completely forgot about them.  I will do that tomorrow, insha'Allah.

I will also link your findings in this thread to www.answering-christianity.com/predict.htm and elsewhere, insha'Allah.

As-Salam aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,

It's OK brother, backup them when you'll get a bit time, by the way you can also preserve my newely added image from this thread [http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2305.0.html], since it contains valuable informations. Anyway, we are a team with a special task, engaged in "clarifying misconceptions", and we have to help each other, so feel free to use my resources in your debates :) Soon, when I open a blog, I will share with you many other findings.

Take care, and salam
Ahme (Poland, Warsaw)

Offline Ramihs97

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@Idris Brother in regards to the dead sea scrolls and this Zohar literature. Is it 100% empirical to declare it Ahmed ? Or is it only a small possibility?

Also, the word that was present in the dead sea scroll "Etmak" What have the rabbi's said it was ? Does it really mean anything? I have tried to find out what it meant but i found nothing.

Offline Idris

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As-salam aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,

dear brother Ramihs97, it is a long subject to discuss here all of the details, so I will try to explain it you briefly:

1. In regards to the word etmak in DSS (Isaiah 42:1), there are strong cases which indicates that it is an altered form of ahmad. Kab al-Ahbar (d. 652), a learned rabbi from Yemen was quoted by Ibn Asakir as saying:

I find in the Torah: Ahmad, My Chosen Servant (in another narration: My Servant Ahmad, The Chosen). Verily, he is neither rude nor harsh. He would not yell or scream in markets. And he will never award an ill deed with an ill deed, rather, he will always award ill deeds with forgiveness.

Notice that he was quoting Isaiah 42:1-3. In LXX the name Jacob appears first, and then “My servant” so it refers to the first variant narration mentioned by Kab i.e. “Ahmad, My servant”. In Masoretic Text, the chapter begins with [Behold] My servant, and then etmak, so it refers to the second variant narration mentioned by Kab, i.e. My servant Ahmad…. Now, the fact that Kab mentioned two different variant of the first fragments from Isaiah 42:1 indicates that there were different manuscripts containing different variants of reading, as I've said above in the case of Septuagint and Hebrew text we have today. In LXX, the Jews must have inserted the words Jacob and Israel instead of Ahmad, since it does not appear neither in Masoretic Text, neither in Aramaic Peshitta, nor in 1QIsaa. There are too possible way to explain the origin of etmak:

a) NON-INTENTIONAL CHANGE - The Jewish scribe could have misread the original form אחמד (ahmad), because in general, the Hebrew letter ת (tav) is visually very similar to ח (chet), and the letter ך (kaph) looks very similar to ד (dalet). The later one i.e. kaph and dalet are especially similar to each other in the old Aramaic alphabet.
b) INTENTIONAL CHANGE - The Jews could have changed the name of Ahmad when they acknowledged that Prophet Mohammed is an Arab not Israeli (6th century AD). In fact there Ibn Saad in his Kitab Tabaqat al-Kabit related a narration from which can be concluded that immediately after their acknowledgement of prophet's Mohammed Arabic roots, Jews deliberately changed the name Ahmad. It says that this Jew changed Ahmad by covering or hiding it not removing it entirely. The natural consequence of such argumentation is that till Prophet’s Mohammed time there were no attempts to corrupt his second prophetic name Ahmad, so the pre-Islamic Torah would have not made any modification. You will ask: but what about DSS ? The Great Isaiah Scroll does not mentioned Ahmad, but etmak right ? You should know that before DSS were discovered, the earliest manuscript of the Hebrew Bible were Aleppo Codex and Leningrad Codex (10th century AD). So it was easy for Muslim to claim: Mohammed was mentioned in the original Torah (i.e. from ancient times), but you Jews do not possess such one, you have only those one dated back to 10th cent. so how we would know whether your rabbis does not changed the Torah after the time of Mohammed ? So what was the plan ? They must prepare some kind of proto-Masoretic Text which would agree their Masoretic one from 10th cent. (but in order to eliminate a possible suspicions from intelektualists they gave a multiple variations of textual reading so to keep scholars constantly working on formulating new theories, resolving puzzles etc.). Can you believe in this fairy, stupid story about a Hebrew text from 2 cent. BC which perfectly agrees in chronological order of chapters and verses, and with no significant departure from its Masoretic version ? I will never believe in such a crap. There was different arrangement of whole chapters in Isaiah. Frankly, there are serious reasons to think that this so called Great Isaiah Scroll which has been claimed to come allegedly from 2 cent. BC. is not an ancient autograph (at least in part). This Isaiah Scroll in many passages shares the same textual variant as the Hebrew MSS from medieval period collected by Kennicott and de Rossi.

Let us return to the subject of mentioning Ahmed in DSS.

If you recall Matthew 12:18 you will see that his quotation is unique, i.e. is not similar as in Old Testament Hebrew Isaiah or Greek Septuagint:

Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved (agapetos) with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

According to early church tradition, the Gospel of Matthew was originally written in Hebrew, and then it was translated into Greek. Notice that in Matthew you will not find such word as whom I uphold/I support for Hebrew etmak. Why ? Here is the answer… the Greek term ἀγαπητός (agapetos) for my beloved which occurs in the text of Matthew 12:18 is actually an equivalent for Hebrew חמד (chamad) found e.g. in Joshua 7:21 under the form אחמדם which can be read as ahmadam or echmedem. The point I ’am going to is that the Hebrew scroll from which Matthew quoted Isaiah 42:1 must have contain the word composed with the root חמד (chamad), yet it cannot be found in today’s Masoretic Text ! Beside this, there are many other details which supports the view that the name Ahmad indeed was mentioned in the original text of Isaiah 42:1.

2. In regards to the Zohar book, it is a great possibility that it talks ocasionally about Ahmed, notice the words occurring around it: through him in ancient of days, Isaiah, sent etc. I ’am simply guessing that it is about prophet Ahmad who was foretold in Isaiah and from ancient of days. I currently waiting for the answer of some certain rabbi. The text of Zohar is specifically in Aramaic, not in Hebrew as I previously thought.

Take care, and salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)

Offline Idris

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Salam aleikum,

The Masoretes were a group of rabbis from Tiberias who begin the work of editing the Hebrew text in 6th century. You should ask yourself: why they decide to correct the text of the Torah exactly in the time of Mohammed and not earlier ?
For me it is obvious, when Mohammed (pbuh) came to Medina in 610 AD, the Jews recognized him as the promised Prophet from Torah, but they were disappointed that he is an Arab, since they were hoping that he will arise among them as an Israeli. And so they alarmed other rabbi in Palestine and Sham to change the scripture (it is however only my personal opinion)

By saying "the pre-Islamic Torah would have not made any modification" I meant of course the matter of changing the names Ahmad and Mohammad (pbuh), but only if we assume that they didn't really know that this prophet will be an Arab, because if we assume that indeed they knew he will be an Arab then it is possible that they were trying to hide at least his nativity, but left his name living in the hope that he will one among them. At this moment one can only speculate what exactly happened, only Almighty Allah know.

From ancient rabbinical quotations it is obvious that the earlier text was different from the Masoretic one, buy wait, now, after 60 years of editing, they finally presented to the world this crap know as The Great Isaiah Scroll (1QIsaa). For example, take a look at the text of Isaiah 42:1 given by Rabbi Ibn Ezra and compare it with the Masoretic one:


Rabbi Ibn Ezra text (11th century AD)

Masoretic Text (10th century AD)
הן עבדי אתמך־בו בחירי רצתה נפשׁי נתתי רוחי עליו משׁפט לגוים יוציא


You can see that is totally different... the Text of Ibn Ezra is much longer ! The text given by other Rabbis is also different !

« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 09:10:29 am by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Idris

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Salam aleikum,

It is a fact also that many manuscripts of the Torah were burned and many of them were censored, so we don't know what has been lost, read the book The Censorship of Hebrew Books by William Popper:

Link: https://archive.org/details/censorshiphebre00poppgoog

Offline Idris

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As-Salam aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,

I have received a message from Rabbi Ben Abrahamson and he confirms my view concerning the word Ahmad in the Book of Zohar:

"This verse in the Zohar quotes Isaiah 60. Yes, ahmad (written with vowels echmod) is written there. It means "I will delight". Prophecy is not any exact science. It is possible that it also predicted the Prophet (pbuh). !!!

So, I was not wrong about the idea of "Ahmad in Isaiah" as you can see it is indeed ahmad, but according to Rabbi Ben Abrahamson is not a name, but he admits that there is a possibility that it was reference to Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). When I've asked him about the authorship of Zohar he replied that "there is no proof that the Zohar is from 2nd century. But this is what most people believe due to its content. Some modern scholars want to say that is not true, but these same people claim the Torah and Quran is not true either."

However, in the Masoretic Text there is no word such as אחמד (ahmad or echmod) in Isaiah 60, so from what source he was quoting this verse ? ? ? It will remain a mystery to me, unless I find some other hints.

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Wa Alaikum As'salam Wa Rahmatu Allah Wa Barakatuh dear brother Idris,

Wow.  May Allah Almighty bless you, dear brother.  Ameen.  Certainly, Rabbi Ben Abrahamson is a very important source that could insha'Allah benefit Islam.  He is an expert in Jewish Scriptures and he speaks very positively about Islam.  May Allah Almighty continue to guide him to Islam.  Ameen.  And may Allah Almighty continue to strengthen your faith and advance your knowledge and fruitful research.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline Idris

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Wa Alaikum As'salam Wa Rahmatu Allah Wa Barakatuh dear brother Idris,

Wow.  May Allah Almighty bless you, dear brother.  Ameen.  Certainly, Rabbi Ben Abrahamson is a very important source that could insha'Allah benefit Islam.  He is an expert in Jewish Scriptures and he speaks very positively about Islam.  May Allah Almighty continue to guide him to Islam.  Ameen.  And may Allah Almighty continue to strengthen your faith and advance your knowledge and fruitful research.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

As-Salam aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,

thank you dear brother Osama. Yes, Sir Ben Abrahamson is a friendly and good Rabbi from which we can learn many interesting things connected with the early Jewish teachings, Torah and its prophecies fulfilled in Islam and Prophet Mohammed (pbuh)! He states for example that the expression אישׁ חמדות (Ish Hammudot) found in Daniel 10:11 is a reference to Prophet Mohammed (pbuh). May Allah bless him and guide him to Islam, Ameen!

As to the topic, more informations are coming insha’Allah

Take care, and salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)

Offline QuranSearchCom

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As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Idris,

I have backed up this thread to:

www.answering-christianity.com/topic_2304.htm

I also changed the location of your image above to www.answering-christianity.com/76f0bdea508f2723.png inside your post.

I will backup all of your new images shortly, insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah