Author Topic: URGENT: Rebuttal needed: Ramadan Pole Paradox:  (Read 26112 times)

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Offline mclinkin94

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URGENT: Rebuttal needed: Ramadan Pole Paradox:
« on: December 12, 2013, 11:05:18 PM »
wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Ramadan_Pole_Paradox

This claims that in some places on the globe there is no sunset except after many months. If you are to fast sunrise to sunset, this one would take 24 months and you would die.

They say this mistake was made because 7th century desert dwellers didn't know about the poles or Earth's roundness.

Also, what if you don't live on Earth, how do you fast?


« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 01:05:53 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Rebuttal needed: Ramadan Pole Paradox:
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2013, 11:53:57 AM »
Bump!

"Sunrise at the South Pole is on about the 21st of September every year. Sunset is on about the 22nd of March the following year"

You cannot fast sunrise to sunset or you'd die. Perhaps this means that you are supposed to refer to Sunrise and Sunsett IN Mecca and Madina WORLDWIDE?

That means in the United States we should be following the Mecca-Madina sunrise and sunsetts. That means if you are outside of the Solar system to fast to meccan and Madina time? Is that right?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 11:59:59 AM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Rebuttal needed: Ramadan Pole Paradox:
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2013, 12:11:05 PM »
Also another verse:

Quran 2:184 " And upon those who are able [to fast, but with hardship] - a ransom [as substitute] of feeding a poor person [each day]. And whoever volunteers excess - it is better for him. But to fast is best for you, if you only knew."

This is saying that if you cannot fast, you should feed the poor, but fasting is better. This still doesn't answer the initial question as to why the Quran said fasting in Sunrise to Sun sett, if the in the poles sunrise to sunset could be many months.

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: Rebuttal needed: Ramadan Pole Paradox:
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2013, 01:02:23 PM »
Also how do you pray if there is a sunrise and sunset that takes 6 months? Do you just not pray until sunset and wait the 6 months??
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 01:05:42 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: URGENT: Rebuttal needed: Ramadan Pole Paradox:
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2013, 06:01:09 PM »
Bump.

If you know how to answer this, please do. We may have been praying wrong the whole time.

Offline IA

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Re: URGENT: Rebuttal needed: Ramadan Pole Paradox:
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2013, 09:05:49 AM »
...
« Last Edit: June 11, 2015, 11:54:22 AM by Ilir Ahmeti »

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: URGENT: Rebuttal needed: Ramadan Pole Paradox:
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2013, 05:31:26 PM »
http://islamicresponse.blogspot.com/2008/07/allegation-that-islam-is-not-practical.html

Thanks for that link brother.

But it still doesn't answer the argument put forth that the Quran did not know that sunrise to sunsett is 6 months in some places in the Earth.

This link that you posted said that it is not suitable for life to live in the poles. That is an error, humans can easily live there and people do live there.
 
Next, the link implied that because there was no sunrise to sunset in the north/south pole you DON'T have to pray. This doesn't seem very practical.

Quote" "Salaat is a time related obligation, so, when these hours are not found in South or North Poles, no prayer is prescribed.". That wouldn't make sense to not pray for 6 months...."


Offline ThatMuslimGuy

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Re: URGENT: Rebuttal needed: Ramadan Pole Paradox:
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2013, 07:22:02 AM »
AsalamuAlaikum,

sorry brother busy in sha Allah will reply.

Offline FARHAN_UDDIN

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Re: URGENT: Rebuttal needed: Ramadan Pole Paradox:
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2013, 11:31:55 AM »
Assalamualykum.

 Please visit the following sites:


http://islamicvoice.com/2001-06/dialogue.htm

 http://www.moonsighting.com/faq_pt.html



 Brother, there might be no direct indication to such circumstances in the Quran because it would have confused the people back then. But obviously there might be indirect indication of such circumstances and also its solution. Listen Quran is the only Divine book. It contains everything. It is we who fail to comprehend the Quran properly due to our lack of knowledge.

Offline Black Muslim

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Re: URGENT: Rebuttal needed: Ramadan Pole Paradox:
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2013, 10:11:08 AM »
http://fatwa.islamweb.net/fatwa/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=126398
I know you hate Hadith and despise it and all , but no one asked you . This is for anyone asking the same question .

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: URGENT: Rebuttal needed: Ramadan Pole Paradox:
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2013, 10:47:45 AM »
wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Ramadan_Pole_Paradox

This claims that in some places on the globe there is no sunset except after many months. If you are to fast sunrise to sunset, this one would take 24 months and you would die.

They say this mistake was made because 7th century desert dwellers didn't know about the poles or Earth's roundness.

Also, what if you don't live on Earth, how do you fast?

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,

Here is my response to the points on Praying and Fasting if you live near the North or South Poles.  Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, commanded the Muslims to make an estimate about the time of Prayer if they're not sure:

"...Thereupon he said, "No, but you must  make an estimate of time and then offer Salat (Prayer).''..." (Source  1,2)

This Hadith was given to me by brother Submit on this website's blog, may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.



Also, here are some Quran Facts about this topic:

1-  Allah Almighty Said that He is the GOD of the sunrises and sunsets (plural for both).  This means there isn't just one fixed sunrise and sunset point on earth or for earth.  No, there are Mashaariq (sunrises) and Maghaarib (sunsets):

[070:040] Now I do call to witness the Lord of all points in the East المشارق and the West المغارب that We can certainly-

‏70:40 فلا اقسم برب المشارق والمغارب انا لقادرون

[037:005] Lord of the heavens and of the earth and all between them, and Lord of every point at the rising of the sun! المشارق

‏37:5 رب السماوات والارض ومابينهما ورب المشارق

Please visit:
www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_27.html
www.answering-christianity.com/north_and_south_poles_and_praying_and_fasting.htm


There are multiple Miracles in this Noble Verse 37:5:

(a)-  Allah Almighty is the LORD of every sunrise point in the entire Universe.

(b)-  This means that every plant has sunrises points.

(c)-  All plants to humans are spherical.  Our moon is spherical.  Our planets that our ancient world knew such as Venus and others were known to be spherical.

(d)-  The sunrise points on those spherical planets clearly indicate that Allah Almighty knew about SUNRISES AND SUNSETS on spherical planets in the Universe.

(e)-  Earth was mentioned in this Noble Verse.  This means that the SUNRISE POINTS also include the ones on earth, like all of those on all of the SPHERICAL PLANETS.

(f)-  Allah Almighty clearly mentioned in other Noble Verses that the earth is:

1-  Spherical
2-  Is traveling in space.
3-  Is rotating around itself.
4-  Is speeding in space.

Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm.

(g)-  Furthermore, Allah Almighty also said in the Holy Quran that all celestial bodies are يعرجون Yaa'rujoon (traveling in orbits) in space.  This video is about Noble Verses 32:5, 34:2, 57:4, 70:3-4 and others, and the Arabic words عرج ,  عروج   ,  معارج  and   معراج   that all refer to "going in an orbital and curvy path" in the Glorious Quran and our Islamic Texts.

 

2-  Allah Almighty Said that whoever WITNESSES the Month of Ramadan, then let him fast It:

[002:185]  Ramadan is the month during which the Quran was revealed, providing guidance for the people, clear teachings, and the statute book. Those of you who witness this month shall fast therein. Those who are ill or traveling may substitute the same number of other days. GOD wishes for you convenience, not hardship, that you may fulfill your obligations, and to glorify GOD for guiding you, and to express your appreciation.

So if the Holy Month is Witnessed by a Muslim Community, then all of the Muslims should Fast.

3-  Allah Almighty Said that when we're in doubt about the right direction, wherever we set our faces for Prayer, we'll find Allah Almighty.

[002:115] To God belongeth the east المشرق and the west المغرب; therefore whithersoever ye turn your selves to pray, there is the face of God; for God is omnipresent and omniscient.

‏2:115 ولله المشرق والمغرب فاينما تولوا فثم وجه الله ان الله واسع عليم

Even in the singular East and West, the Noble Verse is clearly speaking about the EASTS AND WESTS in Its Context, since it's talking about a random EAST AND WEST.  The proof for this is the "al" (the) definite article, which in this context clearly means that whichever EAST and WEST the Muslim may be in, in that EAST and that WEST he will still find the Face of Allah Almighty.  The "al" (the) definite article here in this context is referring to that particular point that the Muslim may be in.  It's like saying:

"There are stores.  Mclinkin94 is in a store.  The store that Mclinkin94 may be in (no one knows where Mclinkin94 is) is still acceptable."  Here "the store" could be any of the stores, indicating that all of the stores are equally the same; that regardless of which store brother Mclinkin94 may be in, that store would still be ok.

Given all of this, it clearly appears to me that the Muslim Community in such places where sunrise and sunset take months can and should do one of the following:

1-  Set their time on the time of the nearest land that gets proper sunrise and sunset.

2-  Set their own time and follow the best estimation for both Prayer and Fasting times.

3-  Follow Mecca's time, since it's the Original Source.

4-  And in any case, they should pray toward Mecca.

And Allah Almighty Knows best.  But one fact should be known is that the Holy Quran did mention the sunrises and sunsets on earth.  And Allah Almighty did speak about visually witnessing the Month of Ramadan for fasting.  So while Allah Almighty may not have directly spoken about the North and South Poles on earth, but the Glorious Quran didn't negate their existence either.  After Allah Almighty did clearly and indisputably say about earth that it is:

1-  Spherical
2-  Is traveling in space.
3-  Is rotating around itself.
4-  Is speeding in space.

Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm.

Also the moon's orbit around earth is S-Shaped: http://www.answering-christianity.com/moon_orbit_miracle.htm.

Advise to all Muslims:

Please do not expect the Glorious Quran to mention everything about geology or astronomy.  The Holy Quran isn't a science book.  However, what you can and should and must expect from the Holy Book is for It to not negate or clash with or contradict an established Scientific fact.  That you would be correct on pursuing.  But to expect the Holy Quran to mention the North and South poles just wouldn't be fair nor right.  The points that I mentioned above clearly demonstrate that Allah Almighty's claims about earth never negated nor are they in any contradiction with the fact that earth has North and South Poles, and that the days and nights do take much longer in those places.

The Holy Quran is crystal clear about the earth having SUNRISES and SUNSETS (plural for both).  To those who believed that earth was flat, and had one fixed point for sunrise and one fixed point for sunset, this statement from Allah Almighty is a contradiction to their false beliefs.

The doomed-to-Hell Islam-hating infidels have nothing on Islam.  All Praise and Thanks and Glory are due to Allah Almighty Alone.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah


Offline mclinkin94

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Re: URGENT: Rebuttal needed: Ramadan Pole Paradox:
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2013, 12:21:33 PM »
Thank you brother Osama  :)  But there still is an issue:

You could also raise the issue that perhaps the author of the Quran did not know that on the poles sunrise to sunset could last 6+ months and therefore didn't mention it. Although it is true that you could sync the times in the North pole and South pole to match prayer times of a close city, the Quran did not say what we are supposed to do if sunrise to sunset lasts entire months. This makes it seem like the author of the Quran was unaware of such a phenomena of sunrise to sunset taking entire months.

That means if we are to observe Ramadan in the poles, we would die. That means we don't have to pray 5 times a day in the poles?

« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 12:26:08 PM by mclinkin94 »

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: URGENT: Rebuttal needed: Ramadan Pole Paradox:
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2013, 09:35:25 AM »
Thank you brother Osama  :)  But there still is an issue:

You could also raise the issue that perhaps the author of the Quran did not know that on the poles sunrise to sunset could last 6+ months and therefore didn't mention it. Although it is true that you could sync the times in the North pole and South pole to match prayer times of a close city, the Quran did not say what we are supposed to do if sunrise to sunset lasts entire months. This makes it seem like the author of the Quran was unaware of such a phenomena of sunrise to sunset taking entire months.

That means if we are to observe Ramadan in the poles, we would die. That means we don't have to pray 5 times a day in the poles?

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,

Yes, the Holy Quran does say that we can sync up with the nearest location that has the proper day and night cycles for Prayer and Fasting Timings.  Here is what the Holy Quran Says:

1-  Muslims are one Ummah (امة nation):

[003:110] Ye are the best of peoples امة, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in God. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.

[002:143] Thus, have We made of you an Ummat امة justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Apostle a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Apostle from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by God. And never would God Make your faith of no effect. For God is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.

[021:092] Verily, this brotherhood امتكم of yours is a single brotherhood امة, and I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore serve Me (and no other).

2-  All land belongs to Allah Almighty.  And if a Muslim is living in a land that is causing him much fitnah (trials, unstable situations), then the Muslim is required to seek better solutions when he could:

[004:097] There are those who have wrought a wrong upon themselves. The angels (of death), would take possession of their souls and ask, "What was wrong with you?" They would answer, "We were too weak and oppressed in the land!" The angels will say, "Wasn't the land of Allah vast and spacious enough, so you could emigrate (and seek refuge) elsewhere?" Such ones would have an abode in hell. What a despicable destination!

[004:098] Except for the men, women and children who are weak and oppressed! They are unable to muster the means (to migrate), and (therefore) find no way out.

Now, while this Noble Verse is speaking about the Muslims who were suffering oppression from the disbelievers, but it would certainly apply today as follows:

1-  Either physically migrate from the land that doesn't have proper cycles of days and nights.

2-  Or set your time (migrate your time) to match a Muslim city or country that has the proper timing.  I personally vote for going with the nearest geographical city or country that has the normal day and night cycles, preferably directly south or north of you, which is on the same vertical time zone and line as you (see image below for why).  But other Muslims also say go with Mecca's timing.  Either way is perfectly fine.

3-  Noble Verse 4:98 clearly gives you the permission to stay in the land that doesn't have proper day and night cycles, especially when our Muslim countries are mostly corrupt today (this is also an Islamic End of Time Prophecy).  So the person would need to set their Prayer and Fasting times to a Muslim city that does have the proper times, and insha'Allah everything will be fine.

And to the reader, please visit my previous post, above, to see the Glorious Quran's Scientific Miracles that are directly related to this topic:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1379.msg5282.html#msg5282

And last and not least, I invite the reader to visit the following link to see the Overwhelming Scientific Miracles in the Glorious Quran in:

1-  STUNNING Numerical Miracles.
2-  Embryology.
3-  Biology.
4-  Astronomy.
5-  Geology.
6-  Mathematics
7-  Archeology.
8-  Prophecies.

Please visit: www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

And again, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, commanded the Muslims to make an estimate about the time of Prayer if they're not sure:

"...Thereupon he said, "No, but you must  make an estimate of time and then offer Salat (Prayer).''..." (Source  1,2)




Time on Earth is determined vertically:

Another point worth mentioning is that the time on earth, as we know it, is determined vertically.  This means that whether you're all the way north or all the way south, if you're on the same vertical time line, then time will be the same for you.  This is why I said above that it's best then to set your Prayer and Fasting Times on the time of the city that is directly south or north of you, and is on the same vertical time zone and line as you:




Advise to all Muslims:

Like I said in my previous post, please do not expect the Glorious Quran to mention everything about geology or astronomy.  The Holy Quran isn't a science book.  However, what you can and should and must expect from the Holy Book is for It to not negate or clash with or contradict an established Scientific fact.  That you would be correct on pursuing.  But to expect the Holy Quran to mention the North and South poles just wouldn't be fair nor right.  The points that I mentioned above, in this post and in the previous one, clearly demonstrate that Allah Almighty's claims about earth never negated nor are they in any contradiction with the fact that earth has North and South Poles, and that the days and nights do take much longer in those places.

The Holy Quran is crystal clear about the earth being Spherical, and having SUNRISES and SUNSETS (plural for both).  Allah Almighty Said about the earth that is:

1-  Spherical
2-  Is traveling in space.
3-  Is rotating around itself.
4-  Is speeding in space.

Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm.

Also the moon's orbit around earth is S-Shaped: http://www.answering-christianity.com/moon_orbit_miracle.htm.

To those who believed that earth was flat, and had one fixed point for sunrise and one fixed point for sunset, this statement from Allah Almighty is a contradiction to their false beliefs.

The doomed-to-Hell Islam-hating infidels have nothing on Islam.  All Praise and Thanks and Glory are due to Allah Almighty Alone.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline mclinkin94

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Re: URGENT: Rebuttal needed: Ramadan Pole Paradox:
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2013, 12:45:12 PM »
Quote

2-  Or set your time (migrate your time) to match a Muslim city or country that has the proper timing.  I personally vote for going with the nearest geographical city or country that has the normal day and night cycles, preferably directly south or north of you, which is on the same vertical time zone and line as you (see image below for why).  But other Muslims also say go with Mecca's timing.  Either way is perfectly fine.

Thank you brother Osama!

I'm having an issue with this point. It appears as if the verses you posted were talking about physically migrating rather than migrating your time. Is there any indication that it refers to migrating the time? I don't see it yet, maybe it is the Arabic.

This would be a convincing point if it refers to migrating the time

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: URGENT: Rebuttal needed: Ramadan Pole Paradox:
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2013, 01:52:20 PM »
Quote

2-  Or set your time (migrate your time) to match a Muslim city or country that has the proper timing.  I personally vote for going with the nearest geographical city or country that has the normal day and night cycles, preferably directly south or north of you, which is on the same vertical time zone and line as you (see image below for why).  But other Muslims also say go with Mecca's timing.  Either way is perfectly fine.

Thank you brother Osama!

I'm having an issue with this point. It appears as if the verses you posted were talking about physically migrating rather than migrating your time. Is there any indication that it refers to migrating the time? I don't see it yet, maybe it is the Arabic.

This would be a convincing point if it refers to migrating the time

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Mclinkin94,

"Migrating your time" was probably a bad choice of words from me, because you'd be on the same vertical time line as any city that has normal day and night cycles, as I already explained.  So apologies for this confusing term.  What I meant by it was to adjust yourself to the time of the nearest city that is on your same vertical timeline and has normal day and night cycles.  You wouldn't need to migrate.  You'll just have to adjust yourself to the nearest city to you, either north or south of you, and set your "days" and "nights" according to them, and work with their timings. 

And by the way, in those countries, they do exactly that.  When they have six months of night or day, for example, they wouldn't have to worry about a thing, since they have already adjusted themselves to the normal cycles' hours, and work with the rest of the country's times.  So if your job is 8:00 am to 5:00 pm Monday thru Friday, then you would adjust yourself to work during those hours regardless whether it is night or day at where you live.  So for Prayer and Fasting, you should do the same.

And I repeat my advise to you and to all Muslims:


Advise to all Muslims:

Like I said in my previous post, please do not expect the Glorious Quran to mention everything about geology or astronomy.  The Holy Quran isn't a science book.  However, what you can and should and must expect from the Holy Book is for It to not negate or clash with or contradict an established Scientific fact.  That you would be correct on pursuing.  But to expect the Holy Quran to mention the North and South poles just wouldn't be fair nor right.  The points that I mentioned above, in this post and in the previous one, clearly demonstrate that Allah Almighty's claims about earth never negated nor are they in any contradiction with the fact that earth has North and South Poles, and that the days and nights do take much longer in those places.

The Holy Quran is crystal clear about the earth being Spherical, and having SUNRISES and SUNSETS (plural for both).  Allah Almighty Said about the earth that is:

1-  Spherical
2-  Is traveling in space.
3-  Is rotating around itself.
4-  Is speeding in space.

Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/egg-shaped_earth.htm.

Also the moon's orbit around earth is S-Shaped: http://www.answering-christianity.com/moon_orbit_miracle.htm.

To those who believed that earth was flat, and had one fixed point for sunrise and one fixed point for sunset, this statement from Allah Almighty is a contradiction to their false beliefs.

The doomed-to-Hell Islam-hating infidels have nothing on Islam.  All Praise and Thanks and Glory are due to Allah Almighty Alone.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah