Answering Christianity Research Center

Shirk is when you put partners with Allah. If unitarians do that, then they won't be saved.

superficial definition ,shirk include ascribing any quality any divine work,power to a creature(even if it is known to be a creature)..
that include the catholic believe in Mary ,the unitarian believe in Jesus as the creator of everything and everything is created for him !.

don't tell me that their belief in Jesus as created by God would save them from blasphemy.....
Catholics know that Mary is mere human ,yet the Quran blasphemized them ...  the same way with unitarians ...

The only thing that is wrong is when they said that Allah used Jesus to create the world. 

how wrong? I say till blasphemy ...Allah didn't create everything seen and unseen by any agent ..
the catholics commit the same mistake while dealing with Mary ...
they think just cause they think she is human...no problem of the things they believe and do with her....

Let's give an example: Let's say Allah created the universe by instructing an Angel to start off the big bang.

we are not into the game of guessing , we are into the reality ...  no agent but Allah who created everything saying otherwise is blasphemy....

ascribing a power that is exclusive to Allah is shirk ... consult a basic tawheed book ,to find out the simplicity of your error.

They do. The Quran makes it clear that some of them do (or did) in 2:62.

If they Do ,then they necessarily converted to Islam, if they DID then they necessarily weren't christians "trinitarians or unitarians".... could be some Jews "who were strictly monotheists"....

why would Allah say that the jews/Christians that believe in God, the last day and live righteous lives would be saved?

the answer is simple ,either you render the verse as a present and future ,then the meaning any of them who would believe in God, the last day and live righteous lives (aka being a convert to Islam), or render it as a past then the meaning ,any of them who believed in God, the last day and lived  righteous lives (aka those who believed in Moses and the applied the true torah ,and those who applied the true injeel) .... they ofcourse are neither the trinitarians nor the unitarians ... as the Quran clearly blasphemized their theology whether before or after ISlam.

.Not necessarily. Think of it like your boss at the company gave you a new law--a new rule...if you continue to obey the old law--you are going against your boss. 

the old law was corrupted , that is why the boss sent the prophet..

Now despite the unitarian belief that jesus had some part of creation (which is wrong)

wrong ?!! no it is SHIRK and gets anyone who believes so anytime anywhere outside the folds of islam completely...

Do you think anyone who believes that a human being (jesus) created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

still be a muslim? !!    Just be factual mclinkin94....

and NO  neither unitarians nor Trinitarians believe that Allah aka (the father) is the one who created ....  just go study well the theology of both the trinitarians and the unitarian.

I said they:

Believe in God
Believe in the last day
Live righteous lives.

and I said they DON'T, supported that from both the Quran and the same article you quoted.

Quran 9:29 is simply commanding Muhammad that he is to inform to the people of the scripture the religion of the truth, and IF they deny and do not uphold the religion of Islam, you are to fight them. ONCE they deny Allah's verses, they no longer fit the criteria given in Quran 2:62 and they become disbelievers.

If the people of the scripture deny and do not uphold the religion of Islam they no longer fit the criteria given in Quran 2:62 and they become disbelievers. 


in other words anyone anywhere who won't uphold the religion of Islam (whether trinitarian,unitarian) as conveyed by the prophet Mohamed peace be upon him is automatically disbeliever  ... no sane person would understand the verse to be saying they were believers before the  warning of  the prophet and became disbelievers afterwards, they simple were desbelievers before the mission of Islam and continued  to be disbelievers ....
if they were believers there were no sense at all to be warned,fought etc....


I provided clear cut proofs (from both the quran and the bible) that all the people of the book  all included in the verse 9:29 as disbelievers... you provided nothing to sustain your position ..anyway let our readers judge...


one final word,  the words of Abduraheem Greene has nothing to do with the point, the destiney of those christians before or after Islam has nothing to do with whether their theologies can be labled as ISLAM.

the Muslims who identify as such who put another source of law besides the Quran are disbelieving in Allah's direct words and are no longer Muslims.

Thats incredible indeed.... on one hand you wrongly turns the nonmuslims into muslims ,and the muslims into non muslims ...  what a twist !!!

plz remember don't get us into small cult Quranists vs Sunna discussion ... that is not our topic...

Christians who have not heard of Islam are Muslims, likewise the ignorant Christians who have not heard of Islam are also Muslim (submitters), once they read the Quran and disbelieve, they become non-Muslims.

I repaet again ,christians who never heard of Islam are NOT muslims ([read again my post of the qualifications to be a muslim), but whether destined to hell or not , God will judge them with his justice and mercy....

How about the Christians before Muhammad? you saying they are destined to hell?

 If they held the monotheism of the old testament ,kept the law.... then not only they can be called (muslims) but also saved.  if they took Jesus as God , then they no longer be called muslims and their destiney to hell.

If so, that too would contradict Quran 2:62.

Not at all ...they are not among those mentioned in the verse ...

The best meaning is to say that Unitarians who have not heard Allah's verses in the Quran are Muslims. 

Again unitarians are not muslims even if not heard the Quran.....why? because they don't believe in Allah and the day of judgment ,they don't held the law of lawful and unlawful.

I also have no problem labeling those who do not know anything about Islam (heard Allah's verses) but believe in God, the last day and live a righteous life as Muslims.   

those folk ,simply don't exist .

Abduraheem Green says that:
The Jews and Christians who follow their religion BEFORE the information game to them of Islam will be saved.

I have no problem with that only the christian who took Jesus as God in spite of their knowledge of the monotheism of the old testament shouldn't be saved...

Quran 2:62 makes it clear that those who believe in Islam, those who believe in Christianity and those who are Jewish and ANYONE who believes in God and the last day and leads a righteous life will not grieve!  The Quran then makes exceptions to that rule throughout (like when it speaks of those who follow the trinity).   

Correction : The Quranic rule and stand point is the following verse:

Holy Quran 3:85 Anyone who desires something other than Islam as a religion will never have it accepted from him, while in the Hereafter he will be among the losers.


the exception : Are those who never heard of Islam after the prophet's mission... eg; the red indians etc....
nowadays few are those who never heard of Islam and many though heard of it,they either had superficial insufficient message or disorted one...
for all those I hope they are forgiven and given justice.....the whole rest without any reasonable doubt destined to hell,according to the Quran....

So who is Quran 2:62 speaking of?
-The previous Christians and Jews (before Islam)
-The ignorant Christians and Jews who have not heard Allah's verses in the Quran

I even disagree partly with that......    The christians before Islam can't be easily included into the noble verse ...   they believed is Jesus as God,and they believed in the last day as bowing in their knees to Jesus the God creator...

The Christians and Jews who heard the Quran and deny it are disbelievers!

If they heard it and believed? they will convert to Islam,withoout doubt.... and God fulfills his promise for them in verse 2:62 .... they are now and only now believe in God as it must be and believe in the day of judgment as it must be and do righteousness as it must be .




Quran 2:62 by the way, makes it clear that you must not only believe in God and the last day--you must also lead a righteous life. The Jews and Christians who hear Allah's verses in the Quran and deny them are not living a righteous life.
[/quote]


the fact is that all those Jews and christians who ever hear Allah's verses in the Quran would deny them (unless some of them convert)...,those are actually the majority of jews and christians,and according to you ,by doing so, they are not living a righteous life. in other words most jews and christians can't be included in the verse 2:62 ...   and are destined to hell ...

again the rule crystal clear
Holy Quran 3:85 Anyone who desires something other than Islam as a religion will never have it accepted from him, while in the Hereafter he will be among the losers.


again the only exception :ignorance of the message,or a distorted message.

If there are clear texts from Quran or Sunnah saying he will return , there is no meanining in anyone - no matter who he or she is - rejecting it .
 

If there are clear texts from Quran or Sunnah saying he will return,then why some Sunni orthodox salafi scholars eg; the Titan Salafi scholar Muhammad Rashid Rida rejected,or doubted it?

After I balanced the arguments for and against the notion of the second coming ,studying throughly the origin of the creed itself in the jewish and christians sources ,checking it in the islamic sources ,I became a second coming skeptic ....

the matter needs more than a post (actually needs a whole thread)... but can be summarized:


1- there is no clear proof of a second coming of jesus or anyone else in the Quran.

2- the most authentic proof text of the notion (in Albukhari) , is narrated by "Abu Hurrairah" , and for some reasons his narratives regarding the beliefs are to be highly doubted "the problem of Kaab Alahbar -Abu Hurrairah link).....

3- The origin of the creed itself from the christian sources shows how it is faked creed, to reason how Jesus couldn't fulfill the messianic prophecies....

several other reasons to be added but that needs a full thread dedicated....

by the way I'm neither Quranist, nor Qadiany ...I'm orthodox Sunni .....   so I don't have any agenda to deny such notion....

peace

What is happening in Iraq isn't  sunna rebelling against the shia authority ,it is just one scene from the never ending sectarian farce that plagued those Iraqi people from the old days ....  tolerance ,sharing authority,being humble has never been one of Iraqis'strong points,whether sunni or shia ,kurdi or Arab etc ......  the worst enemy of Iraqis is none but themselves ......

I will quote honest comment I read today in Aljazeera arabic news site by IRAQI guy :

? ?? ? ?? ? ? ?
? ?? ?? ?? ?? ? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ..?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ? ??
? ?? ? ? ?? ?? ?? ? ?? ?? ? ? ?? ?? ??
( ? ?? ? ? ?? ?)

"Being very humble,I feel proud of my nationality as Iraqi without being biased to my race as Arab,without racism,and my religion without a sect,and being human and made the successful efforts to succeed in life, not only by words but by good deed...the previous introduction was to give myself the right to say that we most Iraqis who belong to every color and sect ,have the following qualities (hypocrisy,cheating,lying, cowardice, greed, corruption ,duplicity , selfishness and tyranny)...

those qualities to be applied to some lesser degree to other Arab countries as well(including Egypt as well) ..


it is not an authority needs reform ,but a society that needs reform..

A tree is known by its fruit....

? ?
A vessel filters what it contains

As-Salamu Alaikum Everyone,


:D

Brother Egyptian, According to you, Is there any was to convince a Christian that Trinity is False?

Salam Bro Muslimboy

...Your question is similar to when the theist asking the atheist ,what is his proofs that God doesn't exist ?!

the fact that ,the burden on the shoulder of those who alleges. it is the theist duty to prove that God does exist ,as the Trinitarians duty to prove trinity does exist ,it is their claim to begin with.

I have discussed before the problems if we resort to the bible to prove the trinity.

take care...