Author Topic: Apostasy  (Read 57228 times)

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Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2016, 04:43:19 PM »
Not to criticize anyone, but just to state some facts and what the scholarly difference of opinion is on the matter.
[/size][/color]R[/font][/size][/color]egarding the matter of stoning, as far as my Islamic knowledge goes, [/font][/color][/size]the article that was linked [/color][/size]has a lot of incorrect and inaccurate material included[/size][/size][/color].[/font]
[/size][/color]In the second Caliph Hadith the author is probably talking about, if I am not very much mistaken, Caliph Umar never said that the verses were "lost". Caliph Umar said those verses, although revealed, were removed from the Qur'anic text on the command of Prophet Muhammad and therefore no longer part of the Qur'an. Most scholars accept this narration while those scholars who reject abrogation of this kind might criticize the authenticity of the narration, but even they do not reject the idea that stoning was one form of punishment during the Prophet's time[/font][/size][/color].[/font]
[/size][/color]T[/font][/size][/color]here is also the problem with the Qur'an being compiled during the reign of the third Caliph, while there are narrations that indicate the author's viewpoint, there are other narrations which provide evidence that the Qur'an was already compiled in a book form during the first Caliph's reign[/font][/size][/color].[/font]
[/size][/color]A[/font][/size][/color]side from the Sahih Bukhari narration cited, as far as I know there are [/font][/size][/color]many[/size][/font][/size][/color] other narrations talking about the punishment of stoning[/font][/size][/color]. [/font][/size][/color]A[/font][/size][/color]lso, on the matter of the Hadiths books being compiled 200 years later, this is highly misleading. It is true that by 250-300 years our most reliable Hadith books [/font][/size][/color]Sahih Bukhari[/size][/font][/size][/color] and [/font][/size][/color]Sahih Muslim[/size][/font][/size][/color] get compiled but there were many other books and authors [/font][/size][/color]before[/size][/font][/size][/color] these works. From what I have read, we even have extant manuscripts of Hadith books dating about 70-90 after the Prophet's death.[/font]
[/size][/color]A[/font][/size][/color]s a person somewhat versed with the ideas of Javed Ahmad Ghamindi, I was surprised to read his name used in the article. Ghamidi is a strong believer in the Qur'an being [/font][/size][/color]Al-Furqan[/size][/font][/size][/color] (the measure or the criterion) and [/font][/size][/color]does[/size][/font][/size][/color] happen to base his judgment on other Islamic issues, laws and Hadiths by putting first what the Qur'an says on the matter. Because of this, even though, he argues against the stoning punishment being the one and only punishment for adulterers, as far as I know, he still maintains that under special circumstances it [/font][/size][/color]can[/size][/font][/size][/color] be given. He does not reject that this punishment was given by the Prophet.[/font]
[/size][/color]Ghamidi  basically argues that stoning was according to the [/font][/size][/color]Surah Maidah[/size][/font][/size][/color] punishments for the person creating corruption in the land. One of the four punishments mentioned there is a torturous death, which in 7th century Arabia was stoning. Therefore, the people who were stoned were either rapists or people who were habitual in such crimes. In any case, according to Ghamidi, stoning [/font][/size][/color]did[/size][/font][/size][/color] happen. Under normal circumstances however, the punishment for adultery according to Ghamidi's arguments is in line to what the author is basically saying, [/font][/size][/color]w[/font][/size][/color]hich is to put in simple terms, that the Qur'anic punishments are not abrogated by Hadiths[/font][/size][/color].[/font]
[/size][/color]Additionally, regarding 4:34, although if Hadith literature is not taken into account, it [/font][/size][/color]is very much possible to come to the "modern" interpretation, however, the[/font][/size][/color] conservative interpretation appears to be closer to the original meaning. Even Ghamidi, whose interpretations are very non-conservative in the cases of adultery punishment and even [/font][/size][/color]Hijab[/size][/font][/size][/color], maintains the conservative opinion in the case of 4:34.[/font]

Offline iknowi

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2016, 04:56:18 PM »
Jzk for the clarification.

Offline Saudi Salafi

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2016, 04:48:30 PM »

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2016, 10:04:54 PM »

Offline iknowi

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2016, 02:23:28 PM »
Asalamu alaykum,

You mention that all scholars agree that stoning is applied to the adulterer, Shabir Ally (arguably the most famous and best Muslim debator alive today) disagrees: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x41Oz3PpeRs

So clearly that isnt true.

And about modern scholars being greater than classical scholars, sorry but i didnt convey what i meant properly. What i meant was that we can utilize the classical scholars criticisms AND we are in the computer age, so everyone can he better equiped and build a more reliable picture of Islam, both academics and laymen, by using ALL available tools (including classical scholars remarks).

And i am not emotional/liberal over the issue, if the Quran stated capital punishment (rajm) as punishment for adultery then so be it, but it doesn't. And i completely agree that we are in the prime age of fitna, but 100 lashings is enough of a deterrent for adultery.

I remember attending a lecture, dont know if its on youtube, about scholars being given too much authority. I agree.

I was raised sunni but im not emotionally attached to the sunnah like you are; this life is merely a passing phase and i do not want shirk to be on my record.

Salaams.

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2016, 05:44:13 AM »

Offline RoyalMuslim

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2016, 07:57:37 PM »
this is difficult to explain

I follow the ideology that not everything in sahih bukhari,muslim,ahmed,tabari,etc is 100% authentic. There are many contradictions which are irrefutable (unlike the ''supposed contradictions'' from the quran).

Now let's just assume its 100% authentic , you have to understand its context. Is leaving the US army punishable by lifetime prison? no. Is leaving the US army during a war/operation punishable? yes

and not ALL scholars agree, many scholars today disagree , this includes some top theologians from Saudi Arabia who have a degree in Islamic jurisprudence

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2016, 08:04:09 PM »
Operation "Destroy Abdullah Almadi" from all directions and all topics :).

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2016, 10:09:04 AM »
Just to clear up any misunderstandings, my posts have nothing to do personally with Abdullah Almadi (keeping a healthy distance from this Abdullah vs. Osama "discourse").

I should also mention that probably most notable scholars also don't absolutely believe that the Hadith books are 100% authentic (and definitely not Tabari and Ahmad). A point of significant importance is that of context. The interesting thing with the "kill whoever changes his religion" narration is that we have no context. Additionally, there are other very similar narrations which happen to interchange the crime of simple apostasy with the crime of apostasy with the addition of fighting God and His Messenger, implying that the context of the punishment included the condition of fighting for the "proscribed" punishment as-well.

Offline Saudi Salafi

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2016, 10:32:31 AM »
Just to clear up any misunderstandings, my posts have nothing to do personally with Abdullah Almadi (keeping a healthy distance from this Abdullah vs. Osama "discourse").


 But why? Why don't you contribute to the discussion to make it more interesting and fun?

Offline Ramihs97

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2016, 03:06:30 PM »
Hey guys i thought this would be an interesting read for you regarding apostasy. 

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/mna/chapter_7.html

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2016, 08:02:42 PM »
Asalamu alaykum,

You mention that all scholars agree that stoning is applied to the adulterer, Shabir Ally (arguably the most famous and best Muslim debator alive today) disagrees: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x41Oz3PpeRs

So clearly that isnt true.

And about modern scholars being greater than classical scholars, sorry but i didnt convey what i meant properly. What i meant was that we can utilize the classical scholars criticisms AND we are in the computer age, so everyone can he better equiped and build a more reliable picture of Islam, both academics and laymen, by using ALL available tools (including classical scholars remarks).

And i am not emotional/liberal over the issue, if the Quran stated capital punishment (rajm) as punishment for adultery then so be it, but it doesn't. And i completely agree that we are in the prime age of fitna, but 100 lashings is enough of a deterrent for adultery.

I remember attending a lecture, dont know if its on youtube, about scholars being given too much authority. I agree.

I was raised sunni but im not emotionally attached to the sunnah like you are; this life is merely a passing phase and i do not want shirk to be on my record.

Salaams.

As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers,

I have covered the topic of fornication, and showed from the Glorious Quran and Hadiths that the punishment for fornication in Islam is limited to 100 lashes as the Glorious Quran Commands.  Please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/was_muta_immoral.htm

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2016, 08:41:35 AM »
Some thoughts on the article:

The article is written by members of the Ahmadiyya community, which makes it likely to be outright rejected by many Muslims, although such an action would be an obvious fallacy.

Quote
"The concept has therefore arisen from the conduct and policies of the post-Khalifat-i-Rashida1 Muslim governments of Baghdad."

It can be argued that this is untrue because history books detail the punishment to have been meted out during the times of the Rashiddun Khalifas too. However, those are only historical narratives and not hadiths which go through an exhaustive authentication process and therefore can not be used as basis for Islamic Shariah.

Quote
"... the use of force for the spread of its ideology"

Although, this became a common practical implementation of this punishment, Muslims who are proponents of the punishment definitely do not see this as a method of forcing their ideology on others. They argue that the individual of his/her own free will chose Islam (and with it all of its laws), no one forced them into accepting the religion.

As Surah Tauba is mentioned in the article, for information purposes I should also mention that some critics of the capital punishment for simple apostasy, argue that the people who were killed for changing their religion from Islam were on the basis of the fifth verse of this Surah. Here, Muslims, after the passage of four months, are ordered to fight the idolaters who either still remain polytheist or have not vacated a specific geographical location (probably the area of Hijaz). Some of them probably left while others converted to Islam. From these particular set of converts, if someone later apostatised, for them was ascribed the capital punishment as that punishment had already been defined for them and had been stopped only because of their conversion.

Regarding a woman's apostasy, in classical Islamic fiqh only the Hanafi school of thought holds that women cannot be killed (although they still can be imprisoned for an indefinite time until they "repent"). The other three schools of thought don't have any such restriction. Additionally, according to some jurists, also in cases where apostate women have been involved in active violent rebellion, they can be killed.

Quote
"It should be remembered that these traditions were compiled some three to four centuries after the advent of Islam..."

This is pretty much false or at-least misleading. The final compilation and authentication process can be argued to have been completed about three centuries after the Prophet's death, but the first writing down of the traditions happened much before. From what I have read, we even have extant manuscripts of haidth books dating from the end of first century Hijra. Additionally, the authentication (and therefore compiling) process is always an ongoing process, the latest, if I'm not mistaken, was Sheikh Albani's performed just a few decades ago.

Quote
"There are no two opinions regarding the accepted fact that whenever any so-called tradition attributed to the Holy Prophet of Islamsa contradicts any clear injunction of the Holy Quran, such a tradition is rejected as false and is not accepted as the word of the Holy Prophetsa."

As much as most Muslims would like to believe, this is not an "accepted fact". In early Muslim history, there were found to be apparent contradictions between what the Qur'an said and what was reported about the Prophet's actions (i.e. hadiths). When it came to widely accepted hadiths, a reconciliation was needed, which came in the form of the concept of abrogation of Qur'anic commandments by actions attributed to the Prophet in hadiths. This is pretty much the case for the issue of stoning of adulterers.
Why was Maulana Maududi specifically criticised? Some can argue against the article as being slightly non-objective because of this.

Most other things in the article, I agree with, found to be irrelevant or don't know enough to comment upon. One interesting question that I should add is the odd nature of the fact that the Ikramah hadith accepted by so many scholars was apparently not accepted by Imam Muslim.

For a more thorough investigation of the relevant hadiths in this regard, I would recommend Dr. Ahmad Shafaat's THE PUNISHMENT OF APOSTASY IN ISLAM, Part II: An Examination of the Ahadith on the Subject.

Offline Mohamed Saif

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2016, 05:17:37 AM »
There is one Hadith I know which says that a Bedouin accepted Islam and left Islam the next day.  But he wasn't executed. 

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Apostasy
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2016, 03:24:22 PM »
That hadith and the criticism on such an interpretation of it have been discussed in the above referenced Dr. Ahmad Shafaat's article.

 

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