Author Topic: Archbishop Voscan Erewanci (1614-1674) put Prophet's Ahmad name in Isaiah 42:10  (Read 52218 times)

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Offline Idris

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Thank you brother one more time. I will ask them insha'Allah ! May Allah bless you for your help.


As a last resort, send that screenshot to them:
http://www.proz.com/translator-directory/?sp=directory&to=eng&from=arm&mode=view&specific=123

Standard rates are:
http://www.translatebyhumans.com/armenian-to-english-translation

Salam akhi, what screenshot you mean ?

Offline Idris

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As'salamu Alaikum dear brother Idris to all brothers and sisters,

Keep up the great research and work, dear brother Idris.  Your work is amazing!  Insha'Allah it will be read by many.  I will also link it to the website soon, Insha'Allah, along with other brothers' works as well that are in my que.

May Allah Almighty greatly bless you, akhi.  Ameen.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah


Walikum Asalaam

Just so you know, we first need to verify those claims!
The text is ancient and i don't seriously think that any average armenian would be able to translate it.

It is true we must to confirm that. I make some research upon Septuagint (analyzing the verse in greek script) and I'am almost sure that Ahmad was mentioned for the second time in Isaiah 42:10 ! The language of those Bibles is in classic Armenian, so I think people who spoke modern armenian are able to read it...but rather I'm afraid that due to the low quality of scanned pages can spoil it i.e. do not see clearly the shapes of individual letters, but you can say that it is possible to identify them

Offline submit

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It's true that the surrounding letters are the same but please note the distance between kaph and bet comparing the third and fourth photo from the top. The distances are not the same. You can clearly see...in the third photo there is more spaces between kaph and the next word (i.e. bo'behiri...) than that one from the fourth photo. Besides, why the author wrote under the fourth photo "Based on that, 'etmak' was originally 'ahmad' in the previous copy [of the scroll]" implying that this is a photo from a distinct scroll and he used it as the last blow! I can not believe that he edited the image just like that

-basically he is giving examples from other verses with letter L (lamed) below it in 1st and 2nd photo for comparison, to strengthen his theory that the original word was Ahmad.
-in 3rd photo he underline the kaph and letter lamed below it.
-The bo' behiri that you mentioned was cut and paste closer in 4th photo (edited one).
-the 5th photo is simply the 4th photo except that he reduces the gap so that the letter dalet that he edited will be close to the lamed below it.

he theorizes that much more older copy may have look like photo 5. but Qumran scribes when writing it try to figure what was the word and rather wrote it as atmk.

Offline Tahmeed

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Assalamu alaikum akhi Idris,

You might find the following thing interesting, unless u know it already!

I downloaded an eastern armenian Bible from here http://www.holytrinity.am/media/AstvatcashunchArmenian0.pdf

I don't know if it's a modern or old version, but see the picture and translation of Isaiah 42:10.




Now Google Translate could do thus far:

Օրհնեցէ՛ք Տիրոշը նոր օրհներգութեամբ,
քանզի նրա իշխանութիւնը բարձունքներում է փառաբանւուն,

Praise Tiroshe (to Lord) new harp (I think it’s song);
For the highest authority in parabanwun (???),

եւ նրա անունը՝ երկրի ծագերից,
ծովերում նաւարկողներից,
կղզիներից ու նրանց բնակիչներից:

And its name, from the ends of the earth;
Nawarkoghnerits(?) seas,
Islands and their inhabitants.”

Notice the words 'Authority' and 'Name'.... you can't find them or anything similar in modern bibles or in the western Armenian bible.  And more surprisingly, both words exist in Voscan's Bible!


It means authority.



It means name.

Also, the phrase 'And its name' sounds like 'And his name..."

Perhaps the eastern bible is altered version of Voscan's Bible and it really contain the name Ahmad!
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 10:38:15 AM by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Idris

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It's true that the surrounding letters are the same but please note the distance between kaph and bet comparing the third and fourth photo from the top. The distances are not the same. You can clearly see...in the third photo there is more spaces between kaph and the next word (i.e. bo'behiri...) than that one from the fourth photo. Besides, why the author wrote under the fourth photo "Based on that, 'etmak' was originally 'ahmad' in the previous copy [of the scroll]" implying that this is a photo from a distinct scroll and he used it as the last blow! I can not believe that he edited the image just like that

-basically he is giving examples from other verses with letter L (lamed) below it in 1st and 2nd photo for comparison, to strengthen his theory that the original word was Ahmad.
-in 3rd photo he underline the kaph and letter lamed below it.
-The bo' behiri that you mentioned was cut and paste closer in 4th photo (edited one).
-the 5th photo is simply the 4th photo except that he reduces the gap so that the letter dalet that he edited will be close to the lamed below it.

he theorizes that much more older copy may have look like photo 5. but Qumran scribes when writing it try to figure what was the word and rather wrote it as atmk.

You may have right brother submit! So it seems actualy we do not posses a direct proof! The author however successfully proved - by presenting many examples of misreading and scribal mistakes comparing hebrew words in other places - that the passage of Isaiah 42:1 originally must have mentioned Ahmad !

Offline Idris

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***censured*** ATTENTION!!! Copyright reservation for the materials published in this post.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 02:58:04 PM by Idris »

Offline Idris

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***censured*** ATTENTION!!! Copyright reservation for the materials published in this post.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 02:58:29 PM by Idris »

Offline Tahmeed

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Yeah I am sure this is the page, bro. The verse numbers are exactly as in the modern bible.



Zoomed.....


The fact that I am going to tell you know- I found out 4 days earlier. But I thought you would lose hope so I didn't say.

The name Ahmad doesn't exist, I am truly truly sorry for that.  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(



և անուն նորա ՛ի ծագաց երկրի
and his name in the ends of the earth (From Google T. = https://translate.google.com/?hl=en#hy/en/%D6%87%20%D5%A1%D5%B6%D5%B8%D6%82%D5%B6%20%D5%B6%D5%B8%D6%80%D5%A1%20%D5%9B%D5%AB%20%D5%AE%D5%A1%D5%A3%D5%A1%D6%81%20%D5%A5%D6%80%D5%AF%D6%80%D5%AB )

But I couldn't figure out what is written in the line about authority, not in the eastern one, not in Voscan's one. So we can still prove his existence if we can prove it means 'the mark of authority in his back'.  This verse simply do not exist in modern bible, so something is fishy, cuz the rest is kept exactly the same but this verse- vanish! So pls dear bro don't lose hope.

Now why did I hid that fact for 4 days and why did I exposed that now? Because you just said something u didn't earlier!

Quote
1666 and 1733 edition are a copy of an ancient Armenian translation of the Bible (5th century A.D) which was based on Septuagint.

How can you be so sure they are the exact copy???? I will post two images shortly and prove that even 1666 and 1733 versions differ a little! So I say the name 'Ahmad' is obviously in the 5th century bible, which u just mentioned! Perhaps Voscan changed it. Because the later verses speak of islands (Arabia is a peninsula), village of Kedar, deserts, making war with kafirs- everything just perfectly fits in! It is obviously Prophet Ahmad.

Keep up, don't give up- we can still do it!
Tahmeed
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 10:39:04 AM by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Tahmeed

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Now, see Isaiah 42:10 in the two editions.

1666


1733


The difference is silly, but it shows how can things change in 100 years, so they obviously changed since 5th century!
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 10:39:33 AM by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Sam663

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Salam akhi, what screenshot you mean ?

Screenshot of those verses.

The Bible was written in 1666, almost 350 years have elapsed since then. That is more than enough for the changes to take place in vowel systems and alphabets. Even if the name "Ahmed" is mentioned in Voscan Bible, why would a site like holytrinity would inlcude it in their version of the Bible?

You need an expert.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2015, 06:57:24 PM by Sam663 »

Offline Tahmeed

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Pokój z Tobą akhi Idris!

Read my previous two posts...

Now clear the thing 'The name Ahmad don't exist' from your mind!

How could I miss this?

I will now translate the verse including the previous word and see what happens!!!!!!!



փառաւորի , և անուն նորա ՛ի ծագաց երկրի
Meaning: glorify his name and the ends of the earth !!! (Google Translate here )

փառաւորի և անուն նորա ՛ի ծագաց երկրի
Meaning: and glorify his name in the ends of the earth !!! (Google Translate here )

Now remember your first post here!

Quote
"Sing to the LORD a new hymn! Glorify his name from the uttermost part of the earth! O ones going down into the sea, and sailing it; the islands, and the ones dwelling in them."

NOTE: the greek word ὕμνος (humnos) analogically to ὑμνέω (humneo) means sing an hymn (praise unto = ar. tahmid = tasbih = nashid)! The phrase 'glorify his name' in other words is to 'praise his name' and in arabic literally goes like this: 'ahmad'u ismuh'u' (from hamd and ism). Similarly when we say e.g "(inni) ahmad'u Allah'a" i.e. "I praise or glorify Allah" = singular form. It depends on the situation. In plural we pronounced also as "(nahnu) n'ahmad'u Allah'a" i.e. "We praise Allah" but from the context of the passage it is clear that not 'we' but rather it is formulated in the sense of "O you, glorify the name of the Lord" meaning that God Almighty is telling them here to "glorify his name", thus in plural in arabic it reads verbally (in this case) as "(antum) ahmad'u Allah'a"! Now, when we change the order of the words 'ahmad'u ismuh'u', instead of "glorify his name", we will obtain "his name is glorious" i.e. in arabic 'ismuh'u ahmad' (i.e. his name is Ahmad) identically to that which was revealed in the Quran, sura 61:6! It is obvious that Jesus (Pbuh) qouted his name from the Old Testament, since Allah Almighty taught him about the wisdom of the Torah and the Gospel !!! Subhannallah, isn't amazing the arabic name Ahmad ?

Yes it is akhi!

The coma after the word փառաւորի (Glorify) gives us an advantage than the greek verse you quoted. Because with the coma the verse makes more sense.

"Ahmad, his name in the ends of the earth."

I think the name Ahmad is really there! Alhamdulillah!!!

Tahmeed
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 10:40:12 AM by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Idris

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***censured*** ATTENTION!!! Copyright reservation for the materials published in this post.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 02:59:27 PM by Idris »

Offline Tahmeed

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Quote
Salam Aleykom,

Walaikumus salam akhi! Actually I first said 'Pokój z Tobą' haha ;D.

I tried to translate the arabic in Google Translate. It is not perfect, but it does the work. We really need bro Osama's help. (Bro Osama, if u determine to translate , pls translate this too  http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vb/showthread.php?t=205706 ;D )

"The most important modern discovery!
Came in the famous newspaper "Muslims" fifth page number 1229 on Monday, 1 March 1412, corresponding to 9 September 1991, under the title "Dr. Mohammad known Aldoualba- who was a member of Alhawwar- tells the story of the dialogue between Islam and Christianity, how Allam began and finished "- and what we will quote in this newspaper from the book d. Shawqi Abu Khalil "always dialogue .." p. 11. (Dar thought) with some Altsrv- that had been found in the Qumran caves north of the Dead Sea, a collection of manuscripts, among them we find the right travel the whole of Isaiah, while the publication in the Old Testament is part him.
In the travel discoverer of Isaiah's own words: "After Christ comes Arabic prophet of the country Faran- country Asmaeil- and the Jews to follow him, and his mark that if he survived the murder, it is the Prophet expected, because it escaped the sword on his neck, and come back to it after that ten thousand saint. "
Pope Paul VI has issued a fatwa in 1965, an important document, served as the official recognition of a Christian religion of Islam, for the first time, which stated: "All of the safe after day in God the Creator of the heavens and the earth, the Lord of Abraham, Moses, is the survivor with God, and in the integrity, At the forefront of Muslims. "
At the invitation official Islamic delegation to the Vatican traveled and met the cardinal Bimonelli Minister of State in the Vatican government regarding relations between Islam and Christianity, and began the dialogue despite the request "Israeli" ambassador in Rome to stop the dialogue, and after multiple meetings between a number of Muslim scholars and senior Vatican officials , stop"

Now that's interesting!

At first after reading your post, I thought this Voscan guy would be an honest one. But he turned out to be a fraud translator as usual!!!

Well for now akhi, I got one question to clarify. What does the verse mean by 'ends of the earth'? Does it mean Arabia, and was Arabia called 'End of the earth' before? Because you know, it is kind of the 'end of Asia'!

Or does the verse mean 'his name will reach the ends of the earth'- meaning Islam will reach every corner of the earth??

At last, jajakAllahu khair for your fascinating research!

Tahmeed



"Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith." (2:286)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 01:52:06 AM by Tahmeed »

Offline QuranSearchCom

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As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers,

May Allah Almighty bless you for your good research.  Keep up the great work!  I apologize for not being able to interact with you lately.  I am currently buried alive with work :(.  Once things clear up a little bit, then I will resume my Islamic activities and responsibilities on this website, Insha'Allah.  I will translate the texts that you requested, Insha'Allah.

Take care of yourselves,
Osama Abdallah

Offline Idris

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***censured*** ATTENTION!!! Copyright reservation for the materials published in this post.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 03:00:04 PM by Idris »

 

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