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In article <firstname.lastname@example.org>, AAA
writes: In his World Wide Web site, http://www.math.gatech.edu/~jkatz/Islam/ Jochen Katz has put forth a number of "arguments" which question the Qur'an in one form or another. It has 'difficulties'. Katz has portions of a book online by a Dr. William Campbell, and Katz says of Campbell's book: "In Dr. William Campbells book there are several chapters on different aspects of the alleged scientific accuracy of the Qur'an in the fourth section of his book." I beg to differ. =================================================================== Campbell has one chapter talking about the Qur'an and science. He divides it up into two parts, one talking about cosmology/geology related issues, and another on human biology issues. +=NO SCIENTIFIC PROBLEMS (ERRORS?!?) IN THE QUR'AN A personal observation: Punctuation like '?!?' is amusingly childish. +=A. THE EARTH, THE HEAVENS AND THE 6 OR 8 DAYS OF CREATION +=1. MOUNTAINS +=On pages 180-182, Dr. Bucaille has a section on ``The Earth's Relief'' +=in which he discusses the Quranic verses about mountains and says, += ``Modern geologists describe the folds in the Earth as giving +=foundations to the mountains, and their dimensions go roughly one +=mile to roughly 10 miles. The stability of the Earth's crust results +=from the phenomenon of these folds.'' +=The verses under discussion which refer to mountains read as follows, += +=The Prophets (Al-Anbiya') 21:31, Middle Meccan, += ``And We have set on the earth firm mountains, lest it should +=shake with them...'' += +=The Bee (Al-Nahl) 16:15, Late Meccan, += ``And He has cast onto the earth firm mountains lest it should +=shake with you...'' += +=Luqman 31:10, Late Meccan, ``He has created the heavens without +=supports that you can see, and has cast onto the earth firm +=mountains lest it should shake with you..'' += +=The News (Al-Naba') 78:6-7, Early Meccan, += ``Have We not made the earth an expanse, and the mountains as +=stakes.''(``as those used to anchor a tent in the ground'' - +=Bucaille p182.) += +=The Overwhelming (Al-Ghashiya) 88:17,19, Early Meccan, += ``Do they (the unbelievers) not look...at the mountains, how they +=have been pitched (like a tent)'' (Translation Bucaille p 181) += +=These verses say clearly that God placed (threw down) the mountains +=on the earth like tent pegs to keep it from shaking. Throwing the +=mountains down onto the earth may be poetry, but to say that +=mountains keep the earth from shaking is a ``difficulty''. += +=Commenting on Dr. Bucaille's statement found at the beginning of +=this section, Professor of Geology, Dr. David A. Young says, +=``While it is true that many mountain ranges are composed of folded +=rocks (and the folds may be of large scale) it is not true that the +=folds render the crust stable. The very existence of the folds is +=evidence of instability in the crust.'' (emphasis mine) In other +=words, Mountains don't keep the earth from shaking. Their formation +=caused and still causes the surface of the earth to shake. [stuff deleted on the formation of fold and volcano mountains.] += We can conclude from this information that Mountains were formed +=originally with movement and shaking; and that now, in the present, +=some earthquakes are caused by their continued formation. When the +=plates buckle over each other there are earthquakes. When the +=volcanoes erupt there can be earthquakes. Ok, here are two "difficulties" with Campbell's analysis. 1. He's made the most *common* error: basing his analysis on an *English* translation. Allah did not reveal the Qur'an in English. Problems with the English words should be directed to the translators. There are no problems with the Arabic. The word for shaking used in the verses you quote is "tameeda". Now, you've jumped to the hasty conclusion that this refers to earthquakes. In Arabic, there is another word for that: "zalzala". See Chapter 99 of the Qur'an for use of "zalzala". Also, see At-Tabari's Tafseer for the meaning of "tameeda". My point: "tameeda" means disturbance and shaking but NOT necessarily on the short time scales we associate with earthquakes. Allah certainly does talk about enormous time scales in many places in the Qur'an; here is one that specifically talks about mountains: "You see the mountains and think them firmly fixed; but they pass away as the clouds pass away..." [27:88] 2. Campbell provides a single, unreferenced quote from Dr. David Young. >From one quote, a faulty generalization is made: "Therefore....". Here too is a single but referenced quote from the Muslim geologist, Dr. E. L. Naggar. This comes from his "The Geological Concept of Mountains in the Qur'an", International Institute of Islamic Thought, International Graphics Printing Services (301 779 7774), 1981. "Continental orogenic belts are the result of plate boundary interaction, and such interaction reaches its climax when two continents come into collision. This results in considerable crumpling of the margins of the two continents and the cessation of all forms of activity at that junction. The two lithospheric plates become welded together, with considerable crustal shortening in the form of giant thrusts and infrastructural nappes, as well as considerable crustal thickening in the form of deep roots that extend downwardly for several times the elevation of the mountainous chain. Consequently, these collosal chains with their very deep roots ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ stabilize the Earth's lithosphere as plate motions are almost completely ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ halted at their place. Again, the notion of a plastic asthenosphere makes ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ it possible to understand why the continents are elevated above the oceanic basins, and why the crust beneath them is much thicker than it is beneath the oceans. This implies that inasmuch as mountains have very deep roots, all elevated regions such as plateaus and continents must have corresponding roots extending for an exceptional distance downward in the asthenosphere. In other words, the entire lithosphere is floating above the plastic or semi-plastic asthenosphere, and its elevated structures are only held steadily by their downwardly plunging roots (Text-Fig. 1)." Conclusion: at the *very least* it is quite premature for any geologist to say that mountains do not prevent any sort of shaking. += Dr. Torki also discusses these verses. For the most part his efforts [stuff deleted about how *Dr. Torki* may have made an error. Agreed. But Dr. Torki meant well, and may Allah forgive him. And I.] +=2. SEVEN HEAVENS += The Qur'an speaks in several verses of the ``seven heavens''. +=Dr. Torki speaks of these verses and quotes them as follows, [stuff deleted of the *Dr. Torki's* speculative analysis.] Campbell refutes a *human's* unsupported and likely erroneous analysis. However, Campbell has NOT refuted the Qur'an itself. +=3. SHOOTING STARS - METEORS AND METEORITES +=The Ranks (Al-Saffat) 37:6-10, Early Meccan. += ``We have indeed adorned the lower heaven with the beauty of the +=stars and for guard against every defiant devil, so they cannot hear +=the highest assembly but be cast away from every side - repulsed for +=theirs is a perpetual torment - except he who snatches something by +=stealth, and a piercing flame (shihabun thaqibun) pursues him.'' [stuff deleted for brevity.] += Scientifically, what are popularly called ``shooting stars'', +=include two main classes of astronomical objects - meteors and +=meteorites. [more stuff deleted.] +=In addition to sporadic meteors, there are also meteor showers during +=which many meteors may be observed at the same moment. [...deleted...] +=In their notes, or by their translations, Yusuf Ali, Pickthall, and +=Hamidullah have all indicated that the Arabic words used in the above +=verses refer to meteors. += The difficulty here is obviously not with the science and +=composition of meteors and meteorites. The difficulty is how to +=understand what the Qur'an can be talking about. The word +=``rajm'', usually translated as ``cursed'' in modern translations, +=comes from the verb meaning ``to stone'', and Hamidullah translates +=67:5 which is quoted above with the words, += ``and We have designed them (the lamps) as a means of stoning +=the devils.'' (translation from French mine) += What shall we understand when it says that God throws meteors, +=whether made of carbon dioxide or iron-nickel, at non-material +=devils who steal a hearing at the heavenly council? And what are +=we to understand when the meteors come in showers and are traveling +=in parallel paths? Are we to understand that the devils all lined up +=in rows at the same moment? These are not easy questions. In fact, they are silly questions, if you'll excuse me for a moment! 1. The Qur'an does not say "All meteors are pursuing devils". It says that when a devil gets close to where he or she shouldn't be, s/he is pursued by a piercing flame. Which *some people* understand to be meteors. 2. Assuming Campbell believes what he wrote, "sporadic meteors" may be what the Qur'an is referring to. As for the rows of meteors, I can only say: who really cares? That is a problem Campbell's created for himself. I can't resist: I don't claim to be a master in devil psychology, but assuming you wanted to sneak around and get something, would you go in a crowd or singly? Please, don't answer. We've wasted enough time. +=4. CONTRADICTIONS IN TIME += a. The Quranic Days of Creation. += In Chapter II of Section I, we talked about the meaning of the word +=``smoke'' in relation to the days of creation. In this section we want +=to look a little more at the number of days and their order. There are +=seven references which speak of God creating the heavens and the earth +=in six days - 7:54, 10:3, 11:7 25:59, 32:4, 50:38, and 57:4. Of these +=it will be sufficient to quote the Late Meccan Sura of Jonah (Ynus) +=10:3, which includes all the information given by the others. += += ``Indeed, your Lord is God Who created the heavens and the earth in +=six days, then He mounted on the throne directing all things. There +=is no intercessor except after his permission. That is God your +=Lord, so worship Him.'' += += That all sounds very straight forward, but in the Late Meccan Sura +=of Ha-Mim Al-Sajda 41:9-12, it reads, += ``Say, `Do you deny Him Who created the earth in two days? And do +=you join equals to Him? He is the Lord of the worlds, and He placed +=therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured +=therein its nourishment in four days, according to (the need) of +=those who ask (for food). Then He turned equally to the heaven when +=it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth, ``Come together +=willingly or unwillingly.'' They both said, ``We come obediently.'' +=And He completed them seven heavens in two days and inspired in +=each heaven its command, and We adorned the lower heaven with lamps +=and rendered it guarded. That is the decree of the Mighty, the +=Knower.''' Campbell has made two serious errors here: an error of translation (not solely his fault), and an error of omission. The Arabic word "thumma" does not necessarily mean "then". It can also mean "moreover". I will not bother to give the full argument showing how this affects the *erroneous* translation of the verse shown above. The MAIN problem is the error of omission. I am not giving the full argument because this very point is refuted completely in Bucaille's book. However, Campbell does NOT include it in his analysis - which really does not hold up to what Bucaille has explained. [more deleted] --- Continued in Part 2 ---
In article <email@example.com>, AAA
writes: +=B. ANATOMY, EMBRYOLOGY AND GENETICS += +=5. THE PLACE OF SEMEN PRODUCTION += [stuff deleted about a HUGE strawman created on the basis of some unnamed Muslim's interpretation of a Qur'anic verse. This time, no name and no reference is provided. There is no point in disputing over such things.] +=The third and biggest problem, though, is that, unlike the Bible, the +=Qur'an uses the word ``sulb'' for loins in a verse which won't allow a +=euphemistic interpretation. In the Early Meccan Sura of the Night-visitant +=(Al-Tariq) 86:5-7, it reads, +=``Now let man think from what he is created! He is created from a gushing +=fluid that issues from between the loins (sulb) and ribs (tara'ib).'' My mother (!) and I have consulted three different tafseers for this verse: Tafseer At-Tabari, Ibn Katheer, and As-Saabooni. I note that Campbell has not listed the source of his interpretations. I should note that even knowing Arabic is not enough to interpret the Qur'an. We should also consult the classic Tafseers. +=Here we find that Man is made from a ``gushing fluid that issues from the +=adult father during the ``now'' of the reproductive act, from a specific +=physical place ``between the loins and the ribs.'' (other translations +=have backbone instead of loins) They're *misleadingly right*. But more below. +=Since the verse is speaking of the moment of adult reproduction it can't +=be talking about the time of embryonic development. Moreover, since +=``sulb'' is being used in conjunction with ``gushing fluid'', which can +=only be physical; and ``tara'ib'' which is another physical word for +=chest or thorax or ribs, it can't be euphemistic. Therefore, we are left +=with the very real problem that the semen is coming from the back or +=kidney area and not the testicles. += +=Dr. Bucaille, as a physician recognizes this problem only too well, so he +=wiggles and squirms (as he accuses the Christian commentators of doing) +=and finally after quoting the verse as we have seen it translated above +=says, ``This would seem more to be an interpretation than a translation. +=It is hardly comprehensible''. This is the second time he has called the +=Qur'an obscure or hardly comprehensible when there was a problem. There is no need for this patronizing rot. +=Therefore, let us look at the translations which I have been consulting. +=Those made by Muslims (Isaiah 56:5: the future believers' name. Sons and daughters titles will be "no more") are: +=Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Egyptian, 1946 with a preface from 1938 +=``He is created from a drop emitted---proceeding from between the backbone +=and the ribs.'' Yusuf Ali was Indian NOT Egyptian. Therefore, Yusuf Ali's native language was not Arabic. And I should note, his commentary is some of the *weakest* going around. I'm not saying this rudely, not at all. But if you compare classic Tafseers that bring up other verses of the Qur'an, the reasons for the verse's descent, hadith that explain it, Companions sayings, etc..... it's like comparing the Sun to a star. There is no comparison. If you want commentary, ditch Yusuf Ali's, and get a traditional one. +=Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall, English, 1977 (translation probably 1940) +=``He is created from a gushing fluid that issued from between the loins +=and ribs.'' Pickthall's native language was not Arabic. +=Muhammad Zafrulla Khan, Pakistani, 1971 +=``He is created from a fluid poured forth, which issues forth from between +=the loins and the breastbones.'' Khan's native language was not Arabic. +=Muhammad Hamidullah, French, 1981 (10th Edition, completely revised) +=``Il a ete cree d'une giclee d'eau sortie d'entre lombes et cotes.'' +=He was created from a spurt of water coming out between the loins and ribs. My guess is that Hamidullah is a native speaker of Arabic. +=Made by a non-Muslim: [non-Muslim translation deleted.] +=That these five translations are exactly equal is perfectly obvious to +=every reader even if he does not know French or the original Arabic. True enough. However, if five people say something, and Allah says something else... +=Dr. Bucaille's Translation +=What would Dr. Bucaille like to suggest? He writes, ``Two verses in the +=Qur'an deal with sexual relations themselves...When translations and +=explanatory commentaries are consulted however, one is struck by the +=divergences between them. I have pondered for a long time on the +=translation of such verses (In plain English that means there is +=``an improbability or a contradiction, prudishly called a `difficulty''' The insertion of pithy remarks like this ("In plain English...") does very little to increase the weight of Campbell's work. In fact, it severely detracts. +=(sic+=), and am indebted to Doctor A. K. Giraud, Former Professor at the +=Faculty of Medicine, Beirut, for the following: +=`(Man was fashioned from a liquid poured out. It issued (as a result) of +=the conjunction of the sexual area of the man and the sexual area of the +=woman.' +=``The sexual area of the man is indicated in the text of the Qur'an by +=the word sulb (singular). The sexual areas of the woman are designated in +=the Qur'an by the word tara'ib (plural). +=``This is the translation which appears to be most satisfactory.'' Ma-sha-Allah, Dr. Bucaille! Well said, well said, and well said! My mother and I went through three different tafseers of this verse. (See above for references). Verdict: Bucaille appears to be right, and most translations are misleading at best. It really requires a good understanding of Arabic to understand this verse. Note that 'sulb' is *singular*. In the dictionary by Wehr you cite below, you will see that its meaning of backbone is *only* when we take the *plural* word of sulb (aslaab). In its singular form, it means hardening. Before we get to 'taraa'ib': In all three tafseers, 'sulb' is given to belong to the man. The 'hardening of the man', an obvious metaphor which I don't think I need to explain. My mother, bless her, was a bit hesitant to tell me that one on the phone :-). The 'taraaib' is also given in the tafseers to belong to the woman. Several people commented on its meaning according to Ibn Katheer. Ibn Abbas (ra) declared it to be the area of the woman where she places a necklace (i.e. breasts). Ad-Dahhak said that it encompassed the woman's eyes, breasts, and legs. You will find much the same in Steingass's dictionary. To the Arab, this verse can easily be understood to metaphorically (and actually in some sense, very directly) refer to the human being's erogenous zones. Bucaille was right. That he didn't provide enough references is well taken, but unlike most English translations, he got the *sense* of the verse correct, as opposed to a literal translation that turns out misleading. In some English commentaries (e.g. Maududi), the mistake is even worse: it is assumed that 'sulb' and 'taraaib' both belong to the man! This is *incorrect*, and Maududi even includes a letter from a medical doctor pointing out big problems with this interpretation. Also consider that the previous verse talks of the ejection of a man during climax. It would not be unusual for the following verse to continue with the sexual context. The Qur'an is Allah's book, and He talks about many things in it. +=When compared, however, with the five translations quoted above, it is +=clear that Dr. Bucaille's suggestion is not a translation, nor even a +=paraphrase. It is an ``explanation'' and ``interpretation'' which rests +=on the following basic assumptions: +=a. That the word ``sulb'' can stand for the male sexual area. Though +=no examples of such a usage from the 1st century of Islam have been given. My mother picked it up immediately. It took me a little while, but I got it too (Perhaps I need to get married ;-)). The main problem is that neither Bucaille's nor Campbell's Arabic is developed enough to grasp this verse easily - but Bucaille did get it eventually. +=b. That the phrase ``(as a result) of the conjunction'' can be found +=in the two Arabic words ``min bain'' which literally mean ``from between''. No problem here. The liquid is ejected from the interaction of the male and female (the latter having multiple erogenous zones). 'min bain' works here. +=c. That the word ``tara'ib'' can mean ``the sexual areas of the woman''. It can. See above and below. +=This last word occurs exactly one time in the Qur'an and you cannot +=establish a meaning with one usage. The dictionaries of Wehr, Abdel-Nour, +=and Kasimirski mention (a)the chest, (b)the upper part of the chest +=between the breasts and the clavicles, and (c)the ribs, and Abdel-Nour +=includes (d)the euphemistic extension to the breasts. It can also include +=the neck up to the chin and speak poetically of the area for a woman's +=necklace. And more. Consult F. Steingass "A learner's Arabic-English Dictionary", Librarie du Liban, 1978, 1242 pages. For 'taraaib': "the four upper ribs; ribs; chest, breast, bosom; place above the collarbone; neck; hands; feet; eyes." Though I am not married, I must say I appreciate the neatness of a lesson in sex education just by this one verse: a man really is only concerned with a single organ as far as his sexual stimulation goes, but a woman has many *many* 'nooks and crannies' if you'll excuse me. :-) But it is beautifully true. Lest anyone think that Allah would not place such a reference in the Qur'an, think again. Islam is a complete way of life. The Prophet (saas) spoke only what Allah inspired him to on this Deen. For further example, here is a hadith cited in Muhammad Abdul-Rauf's "Marriage in Islam", Al-Saadawi Publications 1993: "Let not anyone of you fall upon his woman in the manner a male animal suddenly jumps over its female victim. Let there be a messenger between them." He was asked, "What is the messenger, O Messenger of Allah?" He said, "Kissing, and endearing speech." " [deleted] +=6. `ALAQA (CLOT?!?) AND OTHER STAGES IN THE FORMATION OF THE FETUS [deleted] Campbell's points about 'alaqa go away when he interprets it as something which clings. He correctly mentions this, but then proceeds to flog a nonexistent horse anyway. [more deleted, my apologies. There isn't much that is new in this section.] Campbell's musings about the order of development have been refuted by some of the leading authorities on embryology. That's a dead issue. At the *very least*, there is evidence to suggest that the *interpretation* offered by Bucaille and Moore is correct. +=``This Hadith is reported according to Abi `Abd-ar-rahman `Abdallah ibn +=Mas`ud, may God be pleased with him, who said: The Apostle of God, may +=God bless him and grant him salvation, spoke to us and he is truthful +=and worthy of belief: +=``The creation of any one of you is accomplished in various stages in +=the abdomen of your mother; 40 days a drop of sperm; then he will be +=(`alaqa) a clot for the same period, then chewed meat for the same +=period; then the angel will be sent to him and he will blow into him the +=spirit (soul) and he will order four words (about the future) by writing: +=his monetary fortune, and his length of life, and his actions, and +=whether he is to be damned or happy in the hereafter. +=``And I swear by God Whom there is no other God except Him: it could be +=that one of you will do acts as the people of heaven until there remains +=only one arms length between him and it (heaven), and the writing +=(of his future) will overtake him and he will do the acts of the people +=of the fire and he will enter it. And it could be that one of you will +=do acts of the people of the fire until there remains only one arms +=length between him and it, and the writing (of his future) will overtake +=him and he will do the acts of the people of heaven and he will enter it.'' +=(translation mine) translation: Campbell. +=Transmitted by Bukhari and Muslim Here are a couple of related ahadith from Sahih Muslim and Bukhari. Note that 'drop' is in the Arabic, but 'semen' is not (I have the Arabic version). The translation of the first hadith tries to bring that out. Sahih Muslim, Book 32, Number 6392: Narrated Hudhayfah ibn Usayd: Allah's Apostle (peace_be_upon_him) said: When the drop of (semen) remains in the womb for forty or fifty (days) or forty nights, the angel comes and says: My Lord, will he be good or evil? And both these things would be written. Then the angel says: My Lord, would he be male or female? And both these things are written. And his deeds and actions, his death, his livelihood; these are also recorded. Then his document of destiny is rolled and there is no addition to and subtraction from it. Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 430: Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mus'ud: Allah's Apostle, the true and truly inspired said, "(The matter of the Creation of) a human being is put together in the womb of the mother in forty days, and then he becomes a clot of thick blood for a similar period, and then a piece of flesh for a similar period. Then Allah sends an angel who is ordered to write four things. He is ordered to write down his (i.e. the new creature's) deeds, his livelihood, his (date of) death, and whether he will be blessed or wretched (in religion). Then the soul is breathed into him. So, a man amongst you may do (good deeds till there is only a cubit between him and Paradise and then what has been written for him decides his behavior and he starts doing (evil) deeds characteristic of the people of the (Hell) Fire. And similarly a man amongst you may do (evil) deeds till there is only a cubit between him and the (Hell) Fire, and then what has been written for him decides his behavior, and he starts doing deeds characteristic of the people of Paradise." If these ahadith are hard to understand, then either our understanding is bad, the translation is bad, or in the worst case, the hadith is bad. It would not be a shock. Other Muslims (Isaiah 56:5: the future believers' name. Sons and daughters titles will be "no more") are better qualified than me to speak about this, but as far as I'm concerned, if this hadith is shown to be weak in the future, it's of no consequence. Other ahadith speak of Allah's Divine Will and Power, etc. etc. Allah is still One, without any sons or daughters, Muhammad (saas) is still the Last Messenger, the Qur'an is still the Word of Allah. *Nothing* has changed. [remainder deleted]. I don't choose to go over things like Muslims (Isaiah 56:5: the future believers' name. Sons and daughters titles will be "no more") in space. Campbell provides the answer himself, and any respectable Muslim scholar will tell us that these are very silly, very fruitless points to bring up to debate. ************* What is good here is from Allah, what is not is from me and/or the devil. My apologies. Ahmed A. Abd-Allah
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