Author Topic: Are the scientific miracles of the Quran all false by default?  (Read 30598 times)

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Offline mendacium remedium

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Salamunalykum,

I hope the title is not true - and it makes no sense for it to be true- but when i debate with atheists and theists, and show to them the scientific miracles, they say that the Quranic arabic word has many, many, many meanings - each word having around thirty(? is that even true?) , and that the translations are all mostly speculative and are 'word play'. Hamza Tzortis himself says in his debate with Lawrence Krauss that he does not believe in doing Dawah by using scientific miracles of the Quran because the arabic words individually have so many, many translations and in the early periods they were all translated wrongly.

Surely this isn't true? Surely there needs to be a more or less reliable form of translation?

I would love to obtain an answer, i know Brother Osama has the Lisan Al Arab, and so he would be in a very good position to answer this:)

Furthermore brother, why do early translations of the Quran not describe the universe as expanding? Is it that the translators mistranslated it? Are there latin or greek or some early translators who did not mistranslate it?

Ahsant

Offline Tanveer

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Re: Are the scientific miracles of the Quran all false by default?
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2013, 02:34:52 pm »
Salamunalykum,

I hope the title is not true - and it makes no sense for it to be true- but when i debate with atheists and theists, and show to them the scientific miracles, they say that the Quranic arabic word has many, many, many meanings - each word having around thirty(? is that even true?) , and that the translations are all mostly speculative and are 'word play'. Hamza Tzortis himself says in his debate with Lawrence Krauss that he does not believe in doing Dawah by using scientific miracles of the Quran because the arabic words individually have so many, many translations and in the early periods they were all translated wrongly.

Surely this isn't true? Surely there needs to be a more or less reliable form of translation?

I would love to obtain an answer, i know Brother Osama has the Lisan Al Arab, and so he would be in a very good position to answer this:)

Furthermore brother, why do early translations of the Quran not describe the universe as expanding? Is it that the translators mistranslated it? Are there latin or greek or some early translators who did not mistranslate it?

Ahsant
Apparently some people purposefully twist ayahs to make it look like a miracle when actually its purely figurative. The ayah on mountains being pegs is apparently a supposed miracle but actually meant to be figurative. I dunno, i dont really have that much knowledge on this issue.

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Are the scientific miracles of the Quran all false by default?
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2013, 11:04:33 pm »
Salamunalykum,

I hope the title is not true - and it makes no sense for it to be true- but when i debate with atheists and theists, and show to them the scientific miracles, they say that the Quranic arabic word has many, many, many meanings - each word having around thirty(? is that even true?) , and that the translations are all mostly speculative and are 'word play'. Hamza Tzortis himself says in his debate with Lawrence Krauss that he does not believe in doing Dawah by using scientific miracles of the Quran because the arabic words individually have so many, many translations and in the early periods they were all translated wrongly.

Surely this isn't true? Surely there needs to be a more or less reliable form of translation?

I would love to obtain an answer, i know Brother Osama has the Lisan Al Arab, and so he would be in a very good position to answer this:)

Furthermore brother, why do early translations of the Quran not describe the universe as expanding? Is it that the translators mistranslated it? Are there latin or greek or some early translators who did not mistranslate it?

Ahsant
Apparently some people purposefully twist ayahs to make it look like a miracle when actually its purely figurative. The ayah on mountains being pegs is apparently a supposed miracle but actually meant to be figurative. I dunno, i dont really have that much knowledge on this issue.

As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers,

I have thoroughly demonstrated the Glorious Quran's ample Scientific Notions using 7 dictionaries (Lisan Al-Arab among them) at: http://www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm.

As to the Universe Expanding, the Arabic Word used by Allah Almighty is MOUSI'OONA (موسعون expanding) in Noble Verse 51:47, which is a verb of the noun WAASI'A (واسع vast).  Now some might say that MOUSI'OONA only means "WE MADE IT VAST", and is not a contineous process.  I respond to them by saying that the word would then have to be AWSA'NA (أوسعنا expanded or made bigger), and not the continueous action and verb MOUSI'OONA (موسعون expanding).  MOUSI'OONA is clearly a verb that refers to a continuing expansion, or a happening and ongoing expansion. 

Let me give you this example, from among many, that will further prove this beyond any doubt, insha'Allah.  As a Muslim, you are familiar with the following Arabic terms:

1-  Tawheed (توحيد The concept of Oneness, which implies Oneness of Allah Almighty).

2-  Wahid (واحد One, and it could either mean the number one, or Allah Almighty is One).

3-  Muwahhid (موحد Islamically implies that one who declares or believes that Allah Almighty is One, or in Arabic it also means a person who unites or makes a group as one).

Muwahhid موحد , in the Islamic context here, means that one who believes in the One True GOD Almighty, and CONTINUES TO BELIEVE IN GOD ALMIGHTY.  It's a never-ending belief.  It's a belief that only stops when the person declares otherwise.

Muwahhid موحد , in the Arabic context here, also means one who IS KEEPING THE UNITY!  Me for instance keeping all fights on this board out to keep the Muslims in love and unity with each others makes me A MUWAHHID OF THE PEOPLE, under Islam, on this board.  And it's a task that is ongoing, that is continuing.

Similarly, the noun WAASI'A واسع is on the same linguistic balance as Wahid, and the ongoing Muwahhid موحد is on the same linguistic balance as MOUSI'A موسع , which is a plural verb of MOUSI'OONA موسعون .  So MOUSI'OONA here means an ongoing expansion, as in MUWAHHID here means an ongoing uniter and keeper of the unity and oneness of the group.

In Arabic, we have a linguistic balance, which basically helps to define how the word is to be read, and what it means, and what type it is (noun, verb, adjective adverb, etc....).

Another great example I can give you is the following two Arabic words:

1-  MUHAYMIN (مهيمن, dominating over, ruling over, having an ongoing authority over, which was used for the Noble Quran being مهيمن over all previous Scriptures.  See Noble Verse 5:48).

2-  HAYMANA (هيمن, which can be both a noun and a simple past, which means dominance (noun) or dominated or ruled over (simple past)).

And like above, MUHAYMIN is on the same linguistic balance as MOUSI'A موسع , which is a plural verb of MOUSI'OONA موسعون .  Just like MUHAYMIN means the Quran having a never-ending Authority over all previous Scriptures until Allah Almighty makes It expire, in Noble Verse 5:48, MOUSI'OONA also means an ongoing and never-ending expansion of the Universe until Allah Almighty causes the Cosmic Crunch, which is also mentioned in the Glorious Quran:

"The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),- even as We produced the first creation, so shall We produce a new one: a promise We have undertaken: truly shall We fulfill it.  (The Noble Quran, 21:104)"

And NASA has confirmed that:

1-  There will be indeed a Cosmic Crunch when our ever expanding Universe finally collapses.

2-  That our Universe is flat like a sheet of paper:

"The simplest version of the inflationary theory, an extension of the Big Bang theory, predicts that the density of the universe is very close to the critical density, and that the geometry of the universe is flat, like a sheet of paper. That is the result confirmed by the WMAP science."  (http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html)

Please visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/cosmic_crunch.htm.



Some of Allah Almighty's Divine Attributes:

Another important point to note here is that Allah Almighty's Holy Names, which are also known as Allah Almighty's Divine Attributes, are NEVER-ENDING in existence and authority, and many of them are on the same linguistic balance as MOUSI'OONA.  By the way, the "A" in MOUSI'OONA is a vowel character, and not a letter.  So the Word is MOUSI'OON.  Consider the following Holy Names:

1-  AL-MUHAYMIN, the Dominant over all things, or the Protector.

2-  AL-MU'MIN, the Guardian Of Faith.

3-  AL-MUSAWWIR, the Fashioner.

4-  AL-MUTAKABBIR, the Majestic.

5-  AL-MUTHILL, the Dishonourer.

6-  AL-MUJEEB, the Responsive.

7-  AL-MUTA'ALI, the Most Exalted.

There are ample more Holy Names, but I think you get the picture.  Please visit: Allah Almighty's 99 Holy Names


I challenge any Arab, Muslim or non, to refute this.  Bring me their best arguments!  I already gave you the best one that was ever presented to me by a non-Muslim Arab, and how easily it was refuted.

Furhtermore, have you guys look at the Numerical, and Embryological (to say the least) Miracles in the Glorious Quran?  What metaphoric or figurative speech are the deniers of the Quran's Miracles talking about when they dismiss them with shallow statements?  Please visit the following link and thoroughly go through it:

www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links

I openly challenge Muslims before non-Muslims to debate me here on any specific subject or point regarding this area.  This is a humble challenge, and not hostile.  The Truth of the Glorious Quran is irrefutable.  Please do not follow Islam blindly.  Bring your best or worst arguments that are bothering you here, and let's see if the Quran stands or falls.  Nothing personal, dear brothers.

I hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline mendacium remedium

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Re: Are the scientific miracles of the Quran all false by default?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2013, 05:33:25 am »
mashallah brother. You have provided arabic evidence, which i wanted. Just to ask, how does one account for the early muslims not translating it properly. Has a single muslim before 1920 translated it as expanding brother?

Ahsant, jazakallah for the answer. So the Arabic definitely means expanding.

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Are the scientific miracles of the Quran all false by default?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2013, 09:21:26 am »
mashallah brother. You have provided arabic evidence, which i wanted. Just to ask, how does one account for the early muslims not translating it properly. Has a single muslim before 1920 translated it as expanding brother?

Ahsant, jazakallah for the answer. So the Arabic definitely means expanding.

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,

The people of old were not scientists, akhi.  We're talking bediouns and camel and cattle herders and shepards.  Plus, they were Arabians living in the isolated desert, which hardly had much contact with the outside world (northern Arabia had A LOT more contacts and civilizations than central and southern Arabia).  The Noble Quran came down from Allah Almighty for all times and all places.  The Arabs were fresh and ready for a new Prophet.  They also had NO previous corrupt scriptures.  This is why Islam came to them.

But to answer your question more directly, people simply interpreted the Glorious Quran to the best of their abilities.  Also, Prophet Muhammad's interpretations (peace be upon him) were also limited to the people of his time.  Plus, the Hadiths and the Sunnah were more focused on the social and everyday issues, and not science and astronomy and geology and biology, etc...  And even if they tried to be concerned, they would not have had the knowledge. 

So to put it more simply, the Arabs just simply didn't have the knowledge to interpret the scientific parts of the Glorious Quran.  And it is an indisputable statement to say that the Glorious Quran doesn contain Scientific Notions in It.  It does directly speak about Astronomy, Geology, Embryology, Biology, and several other areas of Science.  This is a true statement that no one can dispute.

I hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah


Offline Egyptian

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Re: Are the scientific miracles of the Quran all false by default?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2013, 09:27:33 am »
the meaning of MOUSI'OONA (موسعون ) in Noble Verse 51:47 ,could be understood in two ways ..

either " expanding"  which is the usual meaning of the word ,and it could mean " we are able " as well...


...........................

Has a single muslim before 1920 translated it as expanding ?

Yes of course ...


the meaning according to some old Quranic tafsir (the following is the arabic quotes are translated into English):



1- Tafsir muqatel ibn solaiman (year AD 767)


means: we are able to expand it as we want.


 تفسير مقاتل بن سليمان/ مقاتل بن سليمان (ت 150 هـ
{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } [آية: 47] يعني نحن قادرون على أن نوسعها كما نريد



2- Tafsir Bahr alolum , (year 985)

means: we are able to expand it as we will.

(فسير بحر العلوم/ السمرقندي

{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } يعني نحن قادرون على أن نوسعها كما نريد


3- Tafsir alfayruz abadi (year 1414)


means : we we are expanding it as we will.

{ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } لها ما نشاء

 تفسير القرآن/ الفيروز آبادي (ت817


4- Tafsir Alnukat waloyon (year 1058)

means : we are able to make the heaven expanding more that it is already expanded.

 تفسير النكت والعيون/ الماوردي (ت 450 ه)
الثاني: لموسعون السماء، قاله ابن زيد.

الثالث: لقادرون على الاتساع بأكثر من اتساع السماء.


5 - Tafsir Alqasemy : (year 1913 )


means: we are able to expand it, more than it is already expanded.

 تفسير محاسن التأويل / محمد جمال الدين القاسمي (ت 1332هـ
 { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ } أي: لقادرون على الإيساع، كما أوسعنا بناءها


6- Tafsir Altabarani (year 970)

means :we expand the heaven in every direction.


 تفسير التفسير الكبير / للإمام الطبراني (ت 360 ـ)

 { وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ }؛ في السَّماء على الأرضِ في كلِّ جهاتٍ




Etc ,etc,etc .......................

« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 09:38:01 am by Egyptian »

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Are the scientific miracles of the Quran all false by default?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2013, 09:42:31 am »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers,

Thank you very much dear brothe Egyptian for your valuable post.  May Allah Almighty bless you akhi. 

I wanted to mention that I have added more Arabic proofs to my original post above as well.  I just modified it and added more material to it:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1027.msg3438.html#msg3438

Take care,
Osama Abdallah




Offline mendacium remedium

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Re: Are the scientific miracles of the Quran all false by default?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2013, 02:02:16 pm »
Brilliant guys, thank you. The in-depth arabic break down and the historical proof by both brothers were absolutely useful to me. May God reward you both:)

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Re: Are the scientific miracles of the Quran all false by default?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2013, 04:22:26 pm »
Brilliant guys, thank you. The in-depth arabic break down and the historical proof by both brothers were absolutely useful to me. May God reward you both:)

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,

Your most welcome.  Please ask any and all questions that bother you.  Islam is the Divine Truth!  May Allah Almighty protect you and protect all of the brothers and sisters here from the disbelievers' snares and attacks on Islam.  Ameen.

By the way, I have added ample more examples to the same post that I wrote earlier: http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1027.msg3438.html#msg3438.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

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Re: Are the scientific miracles of the Quran all false by default?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2013, 04:41:00 pm »
Brilliant guys, thank you. The in-depth arabic break down and the historical proof by both brothers were absolutely useful to me. May God reward you both:)

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,

Your most welcome.  Please ask any and all questions that bother you.  Islam is the Divine Truth!  May Allah Almighty protect you and protect all of the brothers and sisters here from the disbelievers' snares and attacks on Islam.  Ameen.

By the way, I have added ample more examples to the same post that I wrote earlier: http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1027.msg3438.html#msg3438.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Ahsant, i have checked the post out again. Some websites have been using translations by some translators as God just 'making the heavens vast'. And they say 'Oh look where is the expansion'?

This thread, and your posts clearly show

1. The word for word arabic.
2. The fact early scholars did indeed translate it as expansion - many claim they did not.


If these could be added under the rebuttal section, it would be a superb addition !

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Re: Are the scientific miracles of the Quran all false by default?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2013, 04:59:53 pm »
Brother  , about the Big Crunch, isn't it the scientific consensus due to dark energy that the universe will actually continue to expand forever? Perhaps Allah swt means he will stop the expansion and cause it to receede by his divine power?

Ahsant

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Re: Are the scientific miracles of the Quran all false by default?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2013, 11:00:21 pm »
Quote
If these could be added under the rebuttal section, it would be a superb addition !

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,

Done.  I added them to the Rebuttals section of the www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links, plus multiple times within this section.

I also added them to the following articles:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/hot_gas.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/6_days.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/allah_and_science.htm

Also, when you visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac8.htm#links, you'll find in the Rebuttals Section that the first entry is the Rebuttals to the charges against the Scientific Miracles in the Glorious Quran.

I hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Take care akhi,
Osama Abdallah

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Re: Are the scientific miracles of the Quran all false by default?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2013, 01:28:13 am »
Quote
If these could be added under the rebuttal section, it would be a superb addition !

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,

Done.  I added them to the Rebuttals section of the www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links, plus multiple times within this section.

I also added them to the following articles:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/hot_gas.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/6_days.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/allah_and_science.htm

Also, when you visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac8.htm#links, you'll find in the Rebuttals Section that the first entry is the Rebuttals to the charges against the Scientific Miracles in the Glorious Quran.

I hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Take care akhi,
Osama Abdallah

Walakyumsalam:)


Jazakallah! Thank you for adding the article. (A minor spelling mistake in "Furhtermore" on the article, but otherwise it's informative).

So many of the anti-Islamic websites have been feeding people the idea that the universe is not expanding and it's a false translation and that we only started doing it after 1930. Looking at the Arabic words and the history of tafseer we know that is not the case!

Did you check out the answering Islam website(and some other wiki answer/ refutation website)  stating that the Big Bang in the Quran is some pagan myth? That was a total joke of a rebuttal by them!

The pagan myths assume a fully formed "sky" was attached to earth and God separated them - it's a superstitious myth.

In the Quran, the earth and universe as a whole came from DUKHAN. Everything previously was from a singularity, which totally disproves the notion that the earth and 'sky' was fully formed, so all in all, it is clearly referring to the fact that our universe stemmed from a singularity, - no doubts about it.

Some of the refutations posed clearly quote mine the Holy Quran and ignore the context.

By the way Brother, i saw you had something on Isaac Newton. I watched a documentary on TV and they quoted him saying that he believed the bible was corrupted in the 4th century, and that he did not believe in the trinity, and that he believed God was one, and Jesus pbuh was a medium i.e a prophet between us and God. Isaac newton spent MUCH more time on theology than mathematics/physics/alchemy! Mashallah.

Thanks once again!

edit: Also brother, the clay article you had was great.(new scientist article) Do you feel another interpretation could be that we are naturally from organic material that originates from earth/clay in terms of our nutrient composition? So that in addition to water constitutes the elements found in a human being.

« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 01:35:40 am by mendacium remedium »

Offline mendacium remedium

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Re: Are the scientific miracles of the Quran all false by default?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2013, 12:59:59 pm »
Quote
If these could be added under the rebuttal section, it would be a superb addition !

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,

Done.  I added them to the Rebuttals section of the www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links, plus multiple times within this section.

I also added them to the following articles:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/hot_gas.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/detailed_meanings_of_scientific_words_in_verses.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/6_days.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.com/allah_and_science.htm

Also, when you visit: http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac8.htm#links, you'll find in the Rebuttals Section that the first entry is the Rebuttals to the charges against the Scientific Miracles in the Glorious Quran.

I hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Take care akhi,
Osama Abdallah

Brother, Arbery seems to be the only non-muslim to translate it as 'and we extend it wide'.

The others just translate it as 'we make this ample' ect.

This is also true for Yusuf Ali

why are half the translators mistranslating it? Is it because they can not grasp it?

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Re: Are the scientific miracles of the Quran all false by default?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2013, 05:21:25 pm »
Quote
Brother, Arbery seems to be the only non-muslim to translate it as 'and we extend it wide'.

The others just translate it as 'we make this ample' ect.

This is also true for Yusuf Ali

why are half the translators mistranslating it? Is it because they can not grasp it?

As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,

I apologize for not being able to interact actively with you.  I've been very busy.  The following points should answer you insha'Allah:

1-  Many of the English translations are basically built on each others.  So, having a quantity of translations saying something that is not accurate doesn't necessarily give them credibility.

2-  The contineous expansion of the Universe theory is something only recently has been discovered, in 1929.

3-  Sheikh Abdullah Yusuf Ali, may Allah Almighty rest his soul, began translating the Glorious Quran in 1934: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Yusuf_Ali.

4-  Either the theory was not known to him, or he simply decided to not include it.  Besides, brother Egyptian already had shown how the Arabs of old understood the word to mean a continuous expansion, and how the older translations understood it as a continuous expansion.

I hope this helps, insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah