Author Topic: Historical proof of Mecca existence B.C.  (Read 3176 times)

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Offline Idris

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Historical proof of Mecca existence B.C.
« on: September 04, 2016, 10:47:11 am »
As-Salam aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,

How to explain that there is no non-Islamic testimony about the existence of Mekka in old times except only from the Greco-Egyptian geographer Ptolemy in the mid-2nd century A.D., who mentioned a place Makoraba, but even here it is not certain whether this allusion indeed referred to Mecca, as he only mentioned the name in passing (I know that many historians have said that Prolemy mentioned Mekka naming it as Makoraba, but it does not satisfy me)
Do we have some early, historical report which can prove that Mekka existed before Christian era ?

Actually I have found an obvious proof, but I need first to know how Muslims explain almost completely lack of evidences dealing with the historicity of Mekka.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 04:07:45 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline AMuslimDude213

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Re: Historical proof of Mecca existence B.C.
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2016, 01:16:46 pm »
The Lack of evidence is due to how backwords the arabs were,most of them didn't know how to read,or write they could only speak,and they used to live in hot deserts with barely any stone/tablet to write on like they did in those times.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 04:07:55 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Idris

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Re: Historical proof of Mecca existence B.C.
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2016, 06:48:59 pm »
Salam aleikum,

your reasoning is nice and quite logic, but it does not change the fact that there are many ancient records and documents from North Arabia with no mention of Mecca ? Thus, the explication of the lack of evidences (except very few records) from my point of view remains still problematic.

See e.g. this article: http://religionresearchinstitute.org/mecca/archeology.htm

I didn't read the entire article anyway, but maybe you or other brothers will notice something that I've overlooked.

Jazakum Allahu khayran for every kind of your efforts.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 04:08:07 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline AMuslimDude213

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Re: Historical proof of Mecca existence B.C.
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2016, 07:59:33 pm »
Actually I have found a little bit of proof,Diodorus Siculus recorded the Ka'aba's Existence.

https://discoverthetruefacts.wordpress.com/tag/diodorus-siculus/

but the rest explains that Not many populations were in Ka'aba but Ka'aba is often REFERENCED TO in ancient literacy,the ka'aba used to have different red,blue,etc colors on it before the Muslim empire's recolored it to its brick like-color we know it as today.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 04:08:17 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline AMuslimDude213

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Re: Historical proof of Mecca existence B.C.
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2016, 08:21:14 pm »
http://www.answering-christianity.com/paran.htm


and I would like to hear your obvious proof of Mecca being in the ancient times,and the reason for less writings on it is probably due to people not noticing it,you see Mecca was FILLED with mountains,around the whole Ka'aba itself,And Mecca had many 1000s if not MILLIONS of different names in the past,
It can be Paran,Makkah,Bakkah,Macoraba,Mikrab,etc,etc there are MANY names,and since the Place was MOUNTAINOUS and was a dangerous place due to it being mostly Jungle and moutains and the Ka'aba people went around it,
since the place had nothing in it except a structure(Kaaba),the place had no Population in it,except a few(probably tribal) people Kedar
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 04:08:27 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline AMuslimDude213

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Re: Historical proof of Mecca existence B.C.
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2016, 08:28:27 pm »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakkah

Also the bible mentions

 different Valley of Baca ("Valley of the Baka tree", see below) is mentioned in the Book of Psalms Chapter 84, in the following passage:


How amiable are thy tabernacles, O Lord of hosts! My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the Lord: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God. Yea, the sparrow hath found an house, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may lay her young, even thine altars, O Lord of hosts, my King, and my God. Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will be still praising thee. Selah. Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them. Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.


And this is in PSALMS a old testament notice it says the "Sparrow hath found a house"

the commentators say this is Jerusalem but there is no ancient Jewish literature describing a place in Jerusalem called "Bakkah"
so indeed this is the ka'aba,and an irrefutable proof that Abraham built it.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 04:08:35 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Idris

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Re: Historical proof of Mecca existence B.C.
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2016, 01:13:15 am »
Salam aleikum,

I know all about of those informations you've posted brother. Maybe you right, since Mecca was covered by mountains and it has not too much population, perhaps this argument would justify why there are so few historical witnesses to its existence.

As to my obvious proof, it comes directly from an early translation of Genesis (the first book of the Pentateuch), and also from an ancient samaritan writing ascribed to the Prophet Moses (pbuh). I will discuss it insha'Allah today
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 04:08:46 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline AhmadFarooq

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Re: Historical proof of Mecca existence B.C.
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2016, 02:42:19 am »
The Islamic Awareness article on the matter: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 04:08:55 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Idris

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Re: Historical proof of Mecca existence B.C.
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2016, 03:28:10 pm »
As-Salam aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,

In regard to our topic, there is a powerful proof that Mecca has already existed as a city in the time of revealing the Torah to prophet Moses (pbuh).

[NOTE: the below info are an excerpts from my polish book entitled “Znaki i proroctwa Starego Testamentu o nadejściu Ostatniego Posłańca Boga”]

Today, very few Muslims and Christians alike are aware of that Mecca - along with Medina – is explicitly mentioned by name in an early rabbinic translation of the Pentateuch. In Genesis 10:30 according to the Masoretic Text we read the following:

“And their dwelling was from Mesha, as thou goest toward Sephar, unto the mountain of the east.” [JPS, 1917]

However, the above passage according to the Judeo-Arabic translation - i.e. process of reading run as in Arabic, but the script is written with Hebrew letters - made by Rabbi Saadia ben Joseph al-Fayyumi (ca. 882-942), also known as Saadia Gaon, reads as:



Translation:

“And their dwelling was from Mecca towards al-Medina, unto the mountain of the East.” [Œuvres complètes de R. Saadia ben Iosef al-Fayyoûmî, ed. by J. Darenbourg, vol. 1 (Paris: E. Leroux, 1893), p. 17.]

Everyone who is familiar with Hebrew will not contradict me in this matter (Mekka was marked with blue color, al-Medina with red color). First of all, Saadia Gaon is one of the most prominent Jewish scholars, and it is said that his translation holds an unchallengeable authority over all other biblical translations, since he was the best especially in scriptural exegesis, Jewish history and Talmudic knowledge in general, and he is responsible for the first and most important Arabic translation of the Torah which became the standard version for all Jews living in Muslim countries. Maimonides himself, a great and respected Rabbi (1135-1204) said:

“were it not for Saadia, the Torah would almost have disappeared from the midst of Israel; for it was he who made manifest what was obscure therein, made strong what had been weakened, and made it known far and wide by word of mouth and in writing." [H. Malter, Saadia Gaon: His Life and Works, (Philadelphia: The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1921), p. 279.]


Therefore, as you can see, his translation is a primary source when it comes to the accuracy of Old Testament interpretation. As to the mentioning of Mecca and Medina in Genesis, let us recall e.g. the statement of the Rev. Professor William Paul who in his critical interpretation to the Hebrew fragment הַקֶּדֶם הַר [#996] from Genesis 10:30, has wrote: “mountain (mountains) of the East. These are supposed to be those mountains of Arabia running from the neighbourhood of Mecca and Medina to the Persian Gulf.” [Rev. W. Paul, Analysis and critical interpretation of the Hebrew text of the Book of Genesis, (Edinburgh: W. Blackwood & Sons, 1852), p. 100.]

Other scholars also shares a similar view. This of course explain why rabbi Saadia Gaon has mentioned Mecca and Medina in Genesis 10:30. This is not only his paraphrase concluded from the context as some might think, because if you go to the Hebrew text you will notice there such word as באכה (baka) which was translated as “as thou goest” ! 

« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 09:28:07 am by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Idris

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Re: Historical proof of Mecca existence B.C.
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2016, 03:48:02 pm »
CD....

Other scholars also shares a similar view. This of course explain why rabbi Saadia Gaon has mentioned Mecca and Medina in Genesis 10:30. This is not only his paraphrase concluded from the context as some might think, because if you go to the Hebrew text you will notice there such word as באכה (baka) which was translated as “as thou goest” ! 

ויהי מושׁבם ממשׁא באכה ספרה הר הקדם

On that occasion it must be stressed that the Hebrew משׁא (Mesha), that preceds באכה, does not stand here for Mecca as some of you would suppose. Lexicons says that this word is of foreign derivation, and there is no consensus as to whether it refers to a place somewhere in Arabia, or to a region, or to a north Arabian tribe. In any case, we have to concentrate on באכה (bakah), and it would be quite preferable to remember this word in its exact Hebrew form for the next portion of information’s.

The second proof which Allah Almighty let me to discover comes from a rare book called The Asatir: The Samaritan Book of the Secrets of Moses which was translated and published by Dr. Moses Gaster in 1927. This ancient document according to Dr. Moses is much older than Josephus or the Palestinian Targum, and after comparing it with the other manuscripts assumes that this book could not have been compiled later than between 250-200 B.C. In Chapter VIII of this book we read:



No comment… you have a crystal clear proof! But let’s read what Dr. Moses have said in his commentary to the last fragment “Built Mecca” of the verse 3:



Reference: The Asatir: The Samaritan Book of the Secrets of Moses, together with the Pitron or Samaritan commentary and the Samaritan story of the death of Moses, introduction, translation and notes by M. Gaster, Ph.D. (London: The Royal Asiatic Society, 1927), p. 262.

Notice the same word באכה (Baka) which can be found in the Hebrew text of Genesis 10:30 !
Mecca was mentioned among others biblical places, and so in the first and oldest book of the Torah. On the other hand, Ptolemy’s Makoraba - or most probably Makkorabba as some scholars suggested – is also an intriguing issue, and it seems that this word consist of two separable segments, namely:
 
1. Makko = Mekka = Bakka
2. Rabba = from rabb which means in arabic "The Lord"

Based on this, it can be translated literally as “Mekka of the Lord” or “the Lord of Mekka”. Such interpretation is reinforced by discovering an inscription which was engraved in one of the corners of the foundation of the Kaaba during its renovation in 605 A.D. by the people of Quraysh. The mysterious writing was composed in Syriac as relates Ibn Ishaq, and they could not understand it until some Jew read it for them. The text goes as follows: “I am Allah, the Lord of Bakka, I created it on the day that I created heaven and earth and formed the sun and moon, and I surrounded it with seven pious angels. It will stand while its two mountains stand, a blessing to its people with milk and water.” [Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah, trans. A. Guillaume, (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 2004), pp. 85-86.]

Ibn Ishaq immediately after citing this amazing inscription have said: “I was told that they found in the maqam a writing: ‘Mecca is God’s holy house…”

I believe this is the answer, because if Ptolemy by saying Makorabba has in mind a temple rather than a city it would make sense in relation to what we have just read, i.e. that Mecca according to the writing on maqam was called a “holy house of God”, and in result this perfectly fits the conception about Ptolemy’s Makkorabba as “The Lord of Mekka”. Some scholars also have proposed the translation “The Temple of the Lord” which again leads to the same point.

Anyway, in conclusion we have at least two strong proofs directly from an ancient source showing that Mecca is a historical location and indeed existed long before Christian era, and as it is testified by ancient versions of Torah. The Christians of course will try to deny their authority as usually.

Take care, and salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)



« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 09:30:50 am by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Saudi Salafi

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Re: Historical proof of Mecca existence B.C.
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2016, 03:50:49 pm »
 Assalamu alaikum brother Idris,

 Welcome back. This link proves that Mecca existed long before the 4th century. Please read it:

https://discover-the-truth.com/2013/09/03/did-kabah-in-makkah-exist-before-4th-century/
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 04:09:31 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline Idris

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Re: Historical proof of Mecca existence B.C.
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2016, 04:04:05 pm »
Wa aleikum as-salam wa rahmatullahi wa baraketuh,

Thanks brother Abdullah Almadi, I have read this article before, but frankly for me those various quotation are merely agreements of contemporary scholars and that's all. The real, historical proof is that one I've discussed above. Of course the documents from Ptolemy, Diodorus and other ancient geographers are also a historical evidence, but are not so clearly expressed about Mecca, in contrary to the two sources which I've presented in this post.

By the way, brother Osama, the title of this thread should be changed to "Historical proof of Mecca existence B.C." and insha'Allah perhaps will be a new findings.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2016, 04:09:43 pm by QuranSearchCom »

Offline QuranSearchCom

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Re: Historical proof of Mecca existence B.C.
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2016, 04:10:32 pm »
Quote
By the way, brother Osama, the title of this thread should be changed to "Historical proof of Mecca existence B.C." and insha'Allah perhaps will be a new findings.

As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers,

Done, dear brother Idris.  May Allah Almighty bless you, akhi.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

Offline Idris

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Re: Historical proof of Mecca existence B.C.
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2016, 04:33:06 pm »
As-Salam aleikum,

thank you dear brother Osama, I was thinking also that it will be better to preserve those images from being lost, exactly like you have made it with my previous images from the post concerning DSS corruption, remember ?


Offline Idris

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Re: Historical proof of Mecca existence B.C.
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2016, 02:32:36 am »
CD....



Reference: The Asatir: The Samaritan Book of the Secrets of Moses, together with the Pitron or Samaritan commentary and the Samaritan story of the death of Moses, introduction, translation and notes by M. Gaster, Ph.D. (London: The Royal Asiatic Society, 1927), p. 262.

As-Salam Aleikum again,

I forget to tell you that in the image above there is an error in writting: instead of "neading" read "reading", the same is with "nead" which stands of course for "read". and "preservad" for "preserved", but these spelling errors are not so much significant since every English reader should not have a problem to understand the text.

Take care, and salam
Ahmed (Poland, Warsaw)
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 09:31:49 am by QuranSearchCom »