A Conversation I had with a Muslim convert regarding the crucifixion lie.

[QuranSearchCom]

....I want to remind all of us that this contradicts Quran....

Wa Alaikum As'salam dear brother Fadi,

Brother, this is a very shallow argument.  It is so shallow that one would be immediately dismissed as not worthy of debating.  I am not saying this about you.  I am only advising you and the reader.

The Glorious Quran is indeed CRYSTAL CLEAR and VERY DETAILED about all of the things that we need for our Salvation, and all of the foundations of Islam.  But Allah Almighty mentioned in many Noble Verses that He left the details for Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, to explain.  Please visit the following link to see the 100s of the Glorious Quran's Moral Code that I personally was able to extract from the Holy Book:

www.answering-christianity.com/quran_moral_code.htm

So it's quite detailed as far as the Moral Code and everything that we need for our Salvation.  The Glorious Quran Commands us to Pray, pay Zakat (Islamic Charity), Fast, perform Hajj (pilgrimage), and many other things.  Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, detailed the times and rules on how to perform them.  You won't find the detailed rules and conditions of Zakat in the Glorious Quran.  You won't find the the detailed rules and conditions for performing Hajj in the Glorious Quran, and so on.

So the details of certain things being left out of the Glorious Quran isn't a contradiction at all.  We just have to know how to read and understand the Glorious Quran when we read It.  That's all.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[QuranSearchCom]

[adilriaz123]

Asalam ul laykum brothers. I noticed there were 2 points that did not recieve much attention.

1. Who or what is holy ghost.
2. The last supper.

In qura  allah swt, mentions that holy ghost is inspiration and as we know from the event of jesus pbuh birth that the inspiration was sent via angel gabriel a.s.

(Quran 2:97) Say, "Anyone who opposes Gabriel should know that he has brought down this (Quran) into your (muhammad pbuh) heart, in accordance with God's will, confirming previous scriptures, and providing guidance and good news for the believers."

(Quran 16:102) Say, "The Holy spirit has brought it (Quran) down from your Lord, truthfully, to assure those who believe, and to provide a beacon and good news for the submitters."

Srry that was bit off topic but i wanted that to be clear for the viewers.

Part 2

Regarding how the last supper has a big part in this conversation.

Surah al maedah verses 112-115 mention the event of the last supper. As we know Judas was among the believers of jesus a.s. at the moment.

Quran (5:115) Allah said, "Indeed, I will sent it (table cloth from heaven) down  to you, but WHOEVER DISBELIEVES AFTERWARDS from AMONG YOU - then indeed will I PUNISH HIM with a punishment by which I have not punished anyone among the WORLDS."

What does the above ayat indicate?

1. As we know judas was at the last supper and was a former disciple of jesus pbuh.
2. Judas was the only disciple that betrayed jesus pbuh. Bible 18:2 "Now Judas, who BETRAYED HIM, knew the place, because Jesus often met there with his disciples." Till verse 18:8. Which shows only 1 person came back out after Judas went in to get Jesus pbuh. That means it could have only been Judas back because quran says allah swt saved him, also that it appeared to them that it was jesus pbuh.
3. The supposed jesus said "My Lord, My Lord, why have you forsaken me?" God never forsakes a believer or uses him as a example which when we might do something what are we suppose to do in order to get back into god's grace. But this wasn't god's example, allah swt said clearly this is punishment, when allah makes someone example he the almighty says that He (allah swt) forgave him(the prophet or the individual).

[adilriaz123]

Allah swt and his rasool pbuh knows best i am only posting my findings and understanding and seek forgiveness  from allah swt if i got anything wrong.

[QuranSearchCom]

Wa Alaikum As'salam akhi Adil Riaz,

Gabriel, peace be upon him, is not the Holy Spirit or Ghost.  This is another area of conjecture done by some Muslims.  Please visit:

www.answering-christianity.com/holy_spirit.htm


As to Judas, are you saying that GOD Almighty changed his looks to Jesus?  How would they have crucified Jesus if they didn't arrest him and hand him over to Pilot and then to the soldiers to take him and crucify him?  Judas would've been identified as Jesus.  Now, I know that Allah Almighty is well capable of blinding them and making them think it was Jesus, but none of that is mentioned in the Glorious Quran.  You're adding all of this, akhi. 

Also as I mentioned in the previous post above:

"Allah Almighty used the word SUBSTITUTE (BADAL) 35 times in 34 Noble Verses throughout the Glorious Quran.  Yet, this Noble Word was never used in Noble Verse 4:157."



What is mentioned in the Glorious Quran is that Allah Almighty addressed the two scenarios people thought Jesus was killed on:

1-  Executing him.
2-  Crucifying him.

And then Allah Almighty summed it all up by saying Jesus was never killed in any and all scenarios.  And I did bring from the Bible that Pontus Pilate was standing between TWO JESUS "SON OF HIS FATHER" persons.  Now that would create a lot of confusion, especially when the other Jesus had to be executed for killing Roman soldiers.  I have more reasons to believe this than to believe the conjecture that you mentioned, especially that new discoveries show Judas as a righteous disciple who never betrayed Jesus.

Whether he did or not, you're making a huge leap to say that it was Judas that was placed on the cross akhi.  And again and again, WHERE ARE THE HADITHS in all of this?




Noble Verse 5:115:

[005:111]  "And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Apostle: they said, 'We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to God as Muslims'".

[005:112]  Behold! the disciples, said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear God, if ye have faith."

[005:113]  They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle."

[005:114]  Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O God our Lord! Send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a solemn festival and a sign from thee; and provide for our sustenance, for thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)."

[005:115]  God said: "I will send it down unto you: But if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on any one among all the peoples."

?5:110 ?? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ?? ?? ? ?? ? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ? ?? ?? ? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ? ?? ? ?? ?? ? ?? ? ?? ? ? ?? ?? ?? ? ?? ?? ? ?? ?
?5:111 ?? ?? ?? ?? ? ?? ? ?? ??
?5:112 ?? ? ?? ?? ? ?? ?? ?? ?? ? ?? ?
?5:113 ?? ? ?? ? ? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??
?5:114 ? ? ?? ? ? ?? ?? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ??
?5:115 ? ?? ? ? ? ?? ?? ? ? ?? ??


There are some issues with your points above regarding this Noble Verse:

1-  The Noble Verse was speaking about all of the disciples of Jesus, and not just one person.

2-  The warning from Allah Almighty came because He, the Almighty, sent down to them a special Sign for them from Him.  So rejecting after this would bring catastrophic consequences on anyone who turns to disbelief after that.

3-  This is similar to the Jews who were turned into pigs and monkies because they violated the Sabbath after the Divine Signs that were shown to them, such as splitting the sea.


I get your point akhi that Judas being a substitute to Jesus would indeed be a punishment that no one in this world ever experienced.  But the Glorious Quran never spoke about any substitute to Jesus, as I thoroughly demonstrated in the link that I gave above.  Again, as I mentioned in the previous post above:

"Allah Almighty used the word SUBSTITUTE (BADAL) 35 times in 34 Noble Verses throughout the Glorious Quran.  Yet, this Noble Word was never used in Noble Verse 4:157."


On the other hand, it would make sense that Allah Almighty used Judas to go through the crucifixion instead of Jesus, since:

1-  He betrayed Jesus.
2-  His punishment would be indeed very unique.

3-  But his unique punishment translating into him being the substitute for Jesus is a big leap, because the Glorious Quran never spoke about Jesus being substituted by anyone. 

4-  So I won't allow myself to force this upon the Holy Quran.


I believe that the TWO JESUSES, and the possible replacement of Judas on the cross, - even though no SUBSTITUTE was mentioned, but I'll accept it for the sake of argument, - would be in harmony together, and would indeed CONFIRM THE GLORIOUS QURAN'S Claims that indeed, it appeared that Jesus:

1-  Was executed.
2-  Was crucified.

In other words, two different deaths were attributed to Jesus that Allah Almighty made the people think that they happened to Jesus.  And indeed, Allah Almighty ALWAYS Knows Best.


Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[adilriaz123]

Brother osama im sorry if you nisunderstood what i meant by that, but i do mean that holy spirit is INSPIRATION, in some cases it was in form of gabriel while other cases god directly gave it like how allah swt blew it in into mary a.s. womb. I did not mean to limit the spirit to just gabriel a.s. but i did say it was INSPIRATION. So yes i do agree with you that it comes in many form and no one says it is god. Because in Quran depending on the context it is easy to differenciate that holy spirit or spirit is different in all those cases.

But in regards to Judas, brother allah swt gave us clear warning that if any of you go turn back he will punish them. From what bible told what happen to judas when he went to get jesus pbuh while the soliders waited outside. When he emerged it wasnt judas so they asked the person who he is and they asked if it was jesus of naserath. Meaning the soliders and those among them never seen jesus. Since judas didnt emerge they though it can only be jesus.

But i would like to get more info if you believe this isnt correct i would like to know who was put on the cross. Because in quran it says that they did not crucify him. Meaning the person that was crucify wasnt jesus. Many jews till this day celebrate that they crucified jesus. When in quran allah swt said it was made to look as if they did. Then could mean that was either an illusion or the person on cross was someone else.

[QuranSearchCom]

When he emerged it wasnt judas so they asked the person who he is and they asked if it was jesus of naserath. Meaning the soliders and those among them never seen jesus. Since judas didnt emerge they though it can only be jesus.

Very interesting, dear brother.  The Bible also says that all of the disciples fled.  None of them witnessed the crucifixion.  Furthermore, in the newly discovered Gospel of Judas, we see that Jesus asked Judas to betray him:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/04/0406_060406_judas_2.html

Now, this could be to pave the way for Judas to be placed on the cross instead of Jesus.  Sort of like Ali sleeping in Prophet Muhammad's bed when the Prophet fled to Medina with Abu Bakr that night.  I'll investigate this further.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[adilriaz123]

Yes that does make alot of sense. But i always feel a cringe when christians say " a new discovery" makes me feel here comes more made up stories.

[QuranSearchCom]

As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers and sisters in Islam,

I have updated the thread above by adding new evidence that states that according to the Roman law, if one survives the crucifixion then he can be allowed to live:

www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2428.msg11210.html#msg11210

More and more evidence that clearly states that Jesus was never killed!

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[QuranSearchCom]

As'salamu Alaikum Everyone,

Brother Adil has posted a very good argument here also:

www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,2610.msg12644.html#msg12644

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[QuranSearchCom]

[adilriaz123]

[adilriaz123]

Asalam ul laykum here is another interestjng point, Christians point out that even though Crucifixion sounds unjust, it is the Father the Lord sacrifice and with his vast knowledge he sacrificed his son for sins of Mankind.

Now here is another problem. If the Father is the God of both the Old Testament and the New Testament, this logic fails completely due to this verse:

Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin (Deut. 24:16)

Even if Christians claim, well it says dying for the father, but jesus died for our sins, sins of mankind.

Here is another important thing to note, the verse says
 each will die for their own sin

Thus by the logic of the God of the New and Old Testament the crucifixion is illogical.

[QuranSearchCom]

Wa Alaikum As'salam dear brother,

I never said that Jesus was talking about himself.  I implied that the fact that Jesus didn't call Lazarus dead, when in fact Lazarus was dead, and only called him asleep further proofs that in Jesus' world Jesus could not have died or been killed through crucifixion, and that even if they were to drive the entire Roman army's swords through Jesus' body, and put him on the cross 100 times, he would still not be killed nor would he die, except by Allah Almighty's Will, - for Jesus when he returns must die a natural death:

[029:057]  All living beings must taste death! Then, towards Us you have to return!

[003:185]  Everyone shall taste death. And only on the Day of Resurrection shall you be paid your wages in full. And whoever is removed away from the Fire and admitted to Paradise, he indeed is successful. The life of this world is only the enjoyment of deception (a deceiving thing).

I hope this helps, Insha'Allah.

Take care,
Osama Abdallah

[adilriaz123]

Assalam ul laykum brother Osama, indeed there was much use of analygies by Jesus pbuh, the disciples, jews and the Roman. But what is interesting that Jesus pbuh continously states about the disciples "ye, of little faith" and lack of understanding. So this also helps us understand, there testimonies are very weak.