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GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Re: A message to brother Osama
« on: September 01, 2020, 08:36:02 AM »
Okay, first of all. Do you accept the sunnah as a source of revelation? And what do you mean by the 'salafi'?

What exactly is your definition of salafi?

« on: August 31, 2020, 05:41:49 AM »
Hello, brother Osama. 7 years ago,  you said that you had a bad dream about hell. In case, you don't remember anything about it. Here's the link:

For some reason, I felt that I have to tell you. I guess what you saw means that you were about to enter hell. This has to do with you not accepting the Sunnah as what the scholars do. You also are insulting the salafi people although they are the scholars who wrote all these books we are reading today.

I invite you to a debate about the sunnah and salafism.

Note:Can you let us have a calm discussion without insulting anyone, or making fun of each others' beliefs?


And how do you know your head from your butt about what the Prophet said, and what he was wrong about during his bewitchment?  Your hadiths even say that he bowed to idols and sang them a false quran.  So what are you barfing your pile of crap about here exactly?

Because the hadith shows us that

 حَدَّثَنَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ مُوسَى ، أَخْبَرَنَا عِيسَى بْنُ يُونُسَ عَنْ هِشَامٍ ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ ، رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهَا ، قَالَتْ سَحَرَ رَسُولَ اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم رَجُلٌ مِنْ بَنِي زُرَيْقٍ يُقَالُ لَهُ لَبِيدُ بْنُ الأَعْصَمِ حَتَّى كَانَ رَسُولُ اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يُخَيَّلُ إِلَيْهِ أَنَّهُ يَفْعَلُ الشَّيْءَ وَمَا فَعَلَهُ ، حَتَّى إِذَا كَانَ ذَاتَ يَوْمٍ ، أَوْ ذَاتَ لَيْلَةٍ وَهْوَ عِنْدِي ، لَكِنَّهُ دَعَا وَدَعَا ثمَّ قَالَ : يَا عَائِشَةُ أَشَعَرْتِ أَنَّ اللَّهَ أَفْتَانِي فِيمَا اسْتَفْتَيْتُهُ فِيهِ ، أَتَانِي رَجُلاَنِ فَقَعَدَ أَحَدُهُمَا عِنْدَ رَأْسِي ، وَالآخَرُ عِنْدَ رِجْلَيَّ ، فَقَالَ أَحَدُهُمَا لِصَاحِبِهِ مَا وَجَعُ الرَّجُلِ ؟ فَقَالَ : مَطْبُوبٌ . قَالَ : مَنْ طَبَّهُ ؟ قَالَ : لَبِيدُ بْنُ الأَعْصَمِ . قَالَ : فِي أَيِّ شَيْءٍ ؟ قَالَ : فِي مُشْطٍ وَمُشَاطَةٍ وَجُفِّ طَلْعِ نَخْلَةٍ ذَكَرٍ . قَالَ : وَأَيْنَ هُوَ ؟ قَالَ فِي بِئْرِ ذَرْوَانَ .

فَأَتَاهَا رَسُولُ اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فِي نَاسٍ مِنْ أَصْحَابِهِ ، فَجَاءَ ، فَقَالَ : يَا عَائِشَةُ كَأَنَّ مَاءَهَا نُقَاعَةُ الْحِنَّاءِ ، أَوْ كَأَنَّ رُؤُوسَ نَخْلِهَا رُؤُوسُ الشَّيَاطِينِ . قُلْتُ : يَا رَسُولَ اللهِ أَفَلاَ أَسْتَخْرِجُهُ ؟ قَالَ : قَدْ عَافَانِي اللَّهُ ، فَكَرِهْتُ أَنْ أُثَوِّرَ عَلَى النَّاسِ فِيهِ شَرًّا . فَأَمَرَ بِهَا فَدُفِنَتْ ] صحيح البخاري .

Narrated `Aisha:

that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was affected by magic, so much that he used to think that he had done something which in fact, he did not do, and he invoked his Lord (for a remedy). Then (one day) he said, "O `Aisha!) Do you know that Allah has advised me as to the problem I consulted Him about?" `Aisha said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! What's that?" He said, "Two men came to me and one of them sat at my head and the other at my feet, and one of them asked his companion, 'What is wrong with this man?' The latter replied, 'He is under the effect of magic.' The former asked, 'Who has worked magic on him?' The latter replied, 'Labid bin Al-A'sam.' The former asked, 'With what did he work the magic?' The latter replied, 'With a comb and the hair, which are stuck to the comb, and the skin of pollen of a date-palm tree.' The former asked, 'Where is that?' The latter replied, 'It is in Dharwan.' Dharwan was a well in the dwelling place of the (tribe of) Bani Zuraiq. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) went to that well and returned to `Aisha, saying, 'By Allah, the water (of the well) was as red as the infusion of Hinna, (1) and the date-palm trees look like the heads of devils.' `Aisha added, Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) came to me and informed me about the well. I asked the Prophet, 'O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), why didn't you take out the skin of pollen?' He said, 'As for me, Allah has cured me and I hated to draw the attention of the people to such evil (which they might learn and harm others with).' " Narrated Hisham's father: `Aisha said, "Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was bewitched, so he invoked Allah repeatedly requesting Him to cure him from that magic)." Hisham then narrated the above narration. (See Hadith No. 658, Vol. 7)

The bewitching here has nothing to do with delivering the messahe as the Quran said:

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). (Quran  Surah el Hijr 9)


 Your hadiths even say that he bowed to idols

That's a blatant lie right there. I dare you to bring me a hadith that says that.


Your hadiths are full of consipracies and lies against Islam.  Stop subjecting Islam to your holy garbage.   

Hadiths are a piece of authorized history. The fabricated hadiths are surely a piece of garbage, but the true authorized hadiths are never in contradiction to the Quran.


You are wicked:

Also, stop playing with the Quran.  Saying that your Prophet got bewitched makes you a wicked person.  Allah Almighty declared it in the Glorious Quran.  The Quran rejects your hadiths' fabricated lies:


The Quran is talking about the infidels who say that we are merely following a bewitched man. The infidels here did not mean that he's just bewitched by any kind of bewitching, but they meant that he's bewitched in a way that would affect his revelation to the message.

Some bewitching causes the two spouses to be apart, some may cause harm to you. Some may a Jinn possess you. Not all bewitching is the same.

The infidels are not talking about all the kinds of bewitching. What they meant was that the prophet was saying things because he is bewitched. They didn't mean that he's just bewitched. Why would they mean that? The hadith that says that the prophet was bewitched doesn't say that he said anything related to religion because he bewitched.

In other words, the infidels meant that the we shouldn't follow the prophet's teachings because he was bewitched in a way that would make him invent things, but the hadith didn't say that bewitching here affected the prophet while delivering the message.

Allah said both, but he told us some of what he said in different ayats.

said : “He said in Surat Al-Naml (We call your blame from those in the fire and those around them). He said in the stories (O Moses, I am God, Lord of the two worlds), and he said:“ It is between you ” However, he narrated in every surah some of what was included in that appeal. End quote from Tafseer Al-Fakhr Al-Razi (p. 3491)

What do you mean that you found a contradiction? Are you a Muslim?

Brother Osama, insulting other people is forbidden in our religion, and can you define the term 'salafi'?

Brother Osama, mind your language. These hadiths aren't mine. The prophet Muhammed said them, and where in the Quran did it say that whom says that the prophet is bewitched is a wicked person?

Osama, following the teaching of the Quran and the sunnah with the understanding of past people is not a cult of Satan Horn. The sunnah is actually the salad. As I know you are a native Arabic speaker. Do you mind searching سلفي؟

A true hadith doesn't contradict with the Quran. And stoning punishment is mutwateer.

Take this one from me.

The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) didn't marry Aisha for a sexual purpose because such a marriage is prohibited in Islam, so the conclusion is the following:

1-Pedophiles marry, or rape children because of a sexual purpose, not to live a normal life and have children, but rather to just discharge their urges.

2.The prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) didn't marry Aisha because of a sexual purpose. Islam prohibit such a marriage.

3.Therefore, the prophet Muhammad was not a pedophile.

To make it clear, Islam doesn't prohibit such a marriage. I was wrong.

GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Ahad hadiths must be believed.
« on: July 27, 2020, 05:25:30 AM »
As-salamu alaykum, In the name of God the most gracious the most merciful, and all praise is due to God. Many people will say that they stick only to Mutwateer Hadith (Hadith which is narrated by a myriad of people which indicates that it's impossible for them to lie, or to make a mistake). They usually rely on saying that Ahad hadith (Hadith which is inly narrated by one narrator) may be wrong as that one narrator may make a mistake while narrating the hadith, so we shouldn't take the risk, and make our belief on a hadith that may be mistaken.

Well, to begin with, the Mutwateer hadith make a minority of the total numbers of hadiths, which means that if we decide to believe the mutwateer hadith only, then we would end up with getting rid of thousands of hadiths. We would actually get rid of all the hadiths, and leave a small amount of them. Another thing to consider, is the prophet Muhammed  did send one person to teach the non-Muslims Islam.

 وعن معاذٍ  قَالَ: بعَثني رسولُ اللَّهِ ﷺ إِلى اليَمن فَقَالَ:  إِنَّكَ تأْتي قَوْمًا منْ أَهْلِ الكِتَابِ، فَادْعُهُمْ إِلى شَهَادةِ أَنْ لا إِله إِلاَّ اللَّه، وأَنِّي رسولُ اللَّه، فَإِنْ أَطاعُوا لِذلكَ، فَأَعْلِمهُم أَنَّ اللَّه تَعالى افْتَرَض عَلَيْهِمْ خمْسَ صَلواتٍ في كلِّ يَوْمٍ ولَيْلَةٍ، فَإِنْ هُمْ أَطَاعُوا لِذلكَ، فأَعْلِمهُم أَنَّ اللَّه افْتَرَض علَيْهِمْ صَدقة تُؤْخَذُ مِنْ أَغْنِيائِهم فَتُردُّ عَلى فُقَرائِهم، فَإِنْ هُمْ أَطَاعُوا لِذلَكَ، فَإِيَّاكَ وكَرائِم أَمْوالِهم وَاتَّقِ دَعْوة َالمظْلُومِ، فَإِنَّهُ لَيْسَ بَيْنَهَا وبيْنَ اللَّهِ حِجَابٌ متفقٌ عَلَيهِ.

Mu'adh (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:

The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) sent me as a governor to Yemen and (at the time of departure) he instructed me thus: "You will go to people of the Scripture (i.e., the Jews and the Christians). First of all invite them to testify that La ilaha ill Allah (There is no true god except Allah) and that Muhammad (ﷺ) is His slave and Messenger; and if they accept this, then tell them that Allah has enjoined upon them five Salat (prayers) during the day and night; and if they accept it, then tell them that Allah has made the payment of Zakat obligatory upon them. It should be collected from their rich and distributed among their poor; and if they agree to it, don't take (as a share of Zakat) the best of their properties. Beware of the supplications of the oppressed, for there is no barrier between it and Allah."

The prophet here sent only one person. Someone may say that this hadith is ahad, and that's right, but the fact the prophet Muhammed sent various individuals is mutawateer.

The Quran says

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا إِن جَاءَكُمْ فَاسِقٌ بِنَبَإٍ فَتَبَيَّنُوا أَن تُصِيبُوا قَوْمًا بِجَهَالَةٍ فَتُصْبِحُوا عَلَىٰ مَا فَعَلْتُمْ نَادِمِينَ

O ye who believe! If a wicked person comes to you with any news, ascertain the truth, lest ye harm people unwittingly, and afterwards become full of repentance for what ye have done. (Surah el Hujrat verse 6)

If we shouldn't believe the news of an individual, then what's the point of ascertaining?

Wa ʿalaykumu s-salam, Osama. It has been a long time since I last visited this forum. How are you? and how are things going? Anyway, I would like to know your current definition of 'salafi' because salafi are actually defined as those who follow the teachings of the Quran, and the sunnah with the understanding of the past people.

« on: July 28, 2018, 06:12:00 AM »
Sure, why not. If the historical evidence is less than that of the Qur'an, those historical "facts" can also be considered unreliable. However, it should be pointed out that the truthfulness of those historical facts is usually inconsequential.
Can you dismiss the fact that Egyptians built the pyramids? Or that Amr-Ibn el Aas entered Egypt? You cannot easily dismiss historical facts. If you chose to dismiss a historical fact, then you should tell  us on what basis can you determine that a historical fact is true or not.

And what exactly is that "proof"? Is it sufficient evidence? If so, considered "sufficient" by whom? Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, Imam Hanbal or Imam Albani?

Additionally, since no new "proof" has come out for over a thousand years now, what was Imam Albani doing confirming and rejecting Hadiths, in the twentieth century? How could he dare term a Hadith as weak, when another scholar, a thousand years previously, considered it as reliable? Aren't the two drawing their conclusions from the same "proof"?

Do you know how science of hadith works? There're many things that could be used to make a hadith weak. For example, if a narrator tells another narrator something, and they have never met, then there's (ingitah) in sanad, and that makes the hadith weak. If one of the narrators is liar/unknown/not good at memorizing/doesn't have documentation, then the hadith is weak, and there're many ways to determine that a hadith is weak or not. I advise you to read a little bit about science of hadith.

Transmissions are taken from a variety of sources, sometimes trustworthy, sometimes not. Human scholars decide which transmission is trustworthy and which isn't, and a lot of times they differ with each other on the matter. One transmission believed trustworthy by one group of scholars might be unreliable in the eyes of a second group.

Furthermore, as I mentioned before, a majority of the narrations are Khabr-e-Ahad. You might not have a problem believing in them, but other Muslims of a more sceptical nature cannot be expected to absolutely believe in them too.
Sahih hadiths are taken from trustworthy sources. It's like someone hearing something in the news and telling somebody, and this person told another person, and so on..until it reaches bukhari, or Muslim, or whatever Imam. They see if the narrator is trustworthy/good memorizer/ not a liar, and then they start studying the narrators, and see if there's any something wrong in the narration chain.

The Qur'an verse never differentiates between the married and unmarried. Your argument against a contradiction here, is based on circular reasoning i.e. employing two unproven premises to prove each other. Either you have to prove, using external evidence, that the Qur'an verse is referring only to fornication; or starting from the other end, you have to prove that the Hadith is not a later abrogation (in other words a contradiction) of the Qur'an verse.
But actually I didn't use two unproven premises to prove each other. I used a proven hadith to prove a premise. If the hadith is proven, and it says that adultery punishment is stoning, then this means that the Quran verse is referring only to fornication.

Additionally, some would argue the punishment for apostasy in the Hadith, as another example of a contradiction. The Qur'an mentions individuals repeatedly committing apostasy, but never mentions any punishment for them; however, the Hadith calls for the capital punishment. If apostates were to be killed, how can they repeatedly commit the crime?
The apostasy mentioned in the hadith is meant to be the one who wage war against Muslims, and causes problems for the Islamic states.

« on: July 27, 2018, 04:05:55 PM »
I would say that the most significant point of interest is: exactly what is meant by a "proven" Hadith. Most things today cannot be proven by absolute certainty, let alone things that happened 1400 years previously. Who gets to decide which narration is "proven" and which isn't? Is it Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, Imam Hanbal or Imam Albani? At the end of the day, they are all humans and all their "proofs" are human endeavours.
First of all, if you would like to dismiss hadiths, then you should also consider dismissing historical facts. The science of Hadith is like historical facts, but 100 times authentic as most historic facts are from historians who could get their words from random people or just some rumors. The science of hadith is every complicated. The one who gets decide that the narration is proven is the one who has the proof. It's not about who decides that narration is proven. It's about who has the proof to decide. Transmissions are not taken except from trustworthy narrators, and this is known by his daily life and how he interacts with people, and how he memorizes things.

When Osama Abdullah provides evidence regarding actions mentioned in a particular Hadith being in contradiction with Qur'anic laws, this is exactly what Osama is doing i.e. "prov[ing] that it has not been narrated correctly from the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ)." Among the historical criticisms an alleged Hadith is made to go through, include the question of whether the Prophet would have done something that contradicted the Holy Book he was supposed to be preaching, or not?
Very well, I would like to see an authentic that is in a contradiction with the Quran.

Maybe according to your interpretation of the religion. Assuming by "proved" you mean the Sahih Bukhari narrations, as Osama Abdullah points out, the stoning to death punishment for adultery would be one contradiction. The Qur'an specifically mentions the punishment of lashes for fornication and adultery, but the Hadith records stoning as the punishment. Most would see this as a clear contradiction, or at-least re-interpret those particular Hadiths (some scholars argue that the stoning was actually done for the crime of creating corruption in the land, assaults on women, and not adultery).
It wouldn't actually be a contradiction if the punishment of lashes was for fornication and not adultery. The hadith proves that adultery has another punishment, and that the zany mentioned in the Quran was meant to be the one who had intercourse before marriage.

Furthermore, there are definitely some Hadiths which parallel the Qur'an with regards to historical evidence for their reliability - I would say that such are the strongest argument against the Qur'anists - however, from what I understand, such narrations are comparatively quite few and most refer to prayers and rituals. The vast majority of narrations happen to be Khabr-e-Ahad, like the Prophet advising a few individuals, in his personal capacity, instead of addressing a public gathering.
I don't have any comment on this one.

« on: July 24, 2018, 06:59:43 AM »
As'salamu Alaikum dear brothers,

Brother Proud Muslim, I do not reject the Hadiths.  But your Sira and Hadith collections books are not the Glorious Quran.  And the Hadiths that don't directly describe the Glorious Quran belong to the garbage in my opinion.  And if there is a contradiction, then the Hadith gets abrogated (ex: stoning to death punishment).  The Quran mentions

Wa-Alaikum-Salaam, brother Osama. First of all, I've never said that hadiths are the Glorious Quran. I said that if they have been narrated correctly from the prophet Muhammed (ﷺ), then we should accept it. Like in science, if something has been proved to be true, we should accept it. Hadiths don't need to be like Quran in order to be accepted. There're tons of ways to prove that a thing is true even if it's not Quran.

All of the Noble Verses that address the Prophet explaining the Glorious Quran address him as The Messenger.  And when the Prophet violated the Quran, Allah Almighty addressed him as The Prophet.  If you get them all jumbled up, and give me the barrel of crap that Muhammad was a "walking Quran", then you, - with all due respect, - are totally ignorant like the cultists.
I think the hadith that you're referring to is فقد جاء في حديث طويل في قصة سعد بن هشام بن عامر حين قدم المدينة ، وأتى عائشة رضي الله عنها يسألها عن بعض المسائل ، فقال :
( فَقُلتُ : يَا أُمَّ المُؤمِنِينَ ! أَنبئِينِي عَن خُلُقِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيهِ وَسَلَّمَ ؟
قَالَت : أَلَستَ تَقرَأُ القُرآنَ ؟
قُلتُ : بَلَى .
قَالَت : فَإِنَّ خُلُقَ نَبِيِّ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيهِ وَسَلَّمَ كَانَ القُرآنَ .
قَالَ : فَهَمَمْتُ أَن أَقُومَ وَلَا أَسأَلَ أَحَدًا عَن شَيْءٍ حَتَّى أَمُوتَ ...الخ ) رواه مسلم (746)
وفي رواية أخرى :
( قُلتُ : يَا أُمَّ المُؤمِنِينَ ! حَدِّثِينِي عَن خُلُقِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيهِ وَسَلَّمَ .
قَالَت : يَا بُنَيَّ أَمَا تَقرَأُ القُرآنَ ؟ قَالَ اللَّهُ : ( وَإِنَّكَ لَعَلَى خُلُقٍ عَظِيمٍ ) خُلُقُ مُحَمَّدٍ القُرآنُ )
أخرجها أبو يعلى (8/275) بإسناد صحيح .
قال النووي رحمه الله تعالى في "شرح مسلم" (3/268) :
" معناه : العمل به ، والوقوف عند حدوده ، والتأدب بآدابه ، والاعتبار بأمثاله وقصصه ، وتدبره ، وحسن تلاوته " انتهى .
وقال ابن رجب في "جامع العلوم والحكم" (1/148) :

The hadith doesn't really say that our beloved prophet is a walking Quran. It says that the prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) character's is the Quran, which means that he acted in accordance with it, adhering to its limits, following its etiquette, paying heed to its lessons and parables, pondering its meanings and reciting it properly.

The Quran's Declaration:

Also more importantly, Allah Almighty in the Glorious Quran Itself declared that what doesn't agree with the Quran must get rejected.  Please visit the following article and directly respond to the "bottom line" sub-section:

I hope this helps, Insha'Allah.

All hadiths that have been proved to be narrated from the prophet Muhammed (ﷺ) are never in contradiction with the Quran.

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