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GENERAL TOPICS | BOARD ANNOUNCEMENTS / Re: nothing is special about godlessism.
« on: April 09, 2014, 05:39:29 PM »
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Dont bother Black Muslim. Am sure Mclinkin94, this great scholar, this great Muhaddith who has memorized Quran and got an Ijazah, who has a BA, MA and Phd in Islamic Studies, who has studied Islam for more than 20 years knows better than all the Imams and Scholars. He knows more than Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal, Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, Imam Abu Dawood, Imam At-Tirmidhi, Imam Ibn Majah, Imam Ibn Rahwaih, Al Ismaili, Baihaqi, Ar Razi, Al Hakim, Ibn Hibban, Ibn Khuzaima, Ad Daraqtuni, Ad Darimi, Ibn As Sakan, Imam Ashafi'i, At Tabaranee, At Tahawi, Ibn Al Qattan, Imam Malik, Ibn Manda, Abu Ya'la, Ibn Al-Jawzi, Al Baghawi, Ad Dhahabi, Al Haythami, Al Maqsidi, Ibn Hajar, Ibn Hazam, Ibn Kathir, Al Nawawi, Ibn Rajab, Al Baghdadi, Sufyan Ath Thawri, As Suyuti, Az Zahiri, Ibn Taymiyyah and the thousands of other scholars and their students who devoted their whole lives so to protect religion of Islam form falling into corruption and help the muslims of later generations. Who traveled thousands of miles just to authenticate one hadith. They faced hardship that you, me or thousand of us would face in a lifetime. They faced hunger, death, poverty, sold all their wealth for knowledge. Only to be shrugged off by someone sitting eating cocoa krispies behind a computer screen.Beautiful response. May Allah reward them with the greatest rewards. I see you were discussing with mclinkin94 about evolution in the Quran earlier. There is no need for that now. Since his points about hadiths have been disproved, which means that hadiths are true, then hadiths themselves refute his interpretation of the Quran as a book which is in accordance with evolution.
If he was so knowledgeable and searching for the truth, he would look into the Quran and listen to the evidences for the sunnah.
My major thesis is that the Quran did not authorize ANY other source besides itself. AND: It is wrong to use a potentially corrupted source (like hadiths or the bible) to interpret the Quran.If we assume that you didn't bring any evidence for the authenticity of the Quran, then you can't say that 'the Quran did not authorize any other source' because we don't know if the Quran is true. I hope you understand what I'm saying.
Hadiths contradict themselvesThere was no need to write all of this. Everything you had to show me was evidence for the authenticity of the Quran. Your saying 'Quran did not authorize any other source' without showing us evidence for its authenticity, is the same like saying 'The Bible says that the Quran is corrupted'. As we don't believe the Bible is authentic, you can't use that to prove something else is not authentic. I hope you undestand what I'm saying because I'm not a native english speaker and I find it difficult to express myself in a simple way. So, you didn't have to write all of that.
Hadiths contradict the Quran
Hadiths make the prophet Muhammad look like a bad person while the Quran makes him a good person
Hadiths are filled with lies
My thesis is the Quran did not authorize any other source besides itself. That's it.
To debate this, you must show that the Quran DID authorize another source (hadiths) besides itself. And then I will do a rebuttal and we continue with this.Its a matter of interpretation. It's not that I can't answer yor point about the Quran being the only source or the Quran being explained in details, but its irrelevant to what we are discussing. We will discuss it later. What I can say for now, and I will leave you and all other Muslims to think about this, is that, I don't believe you are right and 99.99% of Muslim scholars are wrong. All of them have read these verses. How could not a single scholar except Rashad Khalifa (who is not a scholar), some Muslims who follow their desires, and you, undestand it in the right way?
If you start shooting the "science" of Hadiths nonsense. I would like to show ONE case of how the science of hadiths is fundamentally flawed:Is this how the Science of Hadith classifies hadiths?! Are you showing me how does a hadith look like or how does the Science of Hadith classify hadiths? Wow! I can't believe you wrote this. Simply, you don't have an idea about the Science of Hadith my brother. Sincerely, I'm quite dissapointed.
The science of hadiths is based on the reliability of the people who spread them. Example:
Person 1 said that person 2 said that person 3 said that person 4 said that the prophet said...
If person 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 are reliable people with good character, then the hadith is authentic and ALL muslims believe in them. Okay, here is a case that shows the science of hadiths are fundamentally flawed:
1.) "Can't the hadith corrupter also lie about the chain of transmission" (person 1 lied about who he got his info from)
2.) How do you know any of these people are reliable--by utilizing hadith sources (circular reasoning)
As'salamu Alaikum dear brother,Wa Alaikum Salam dear brother,
Sorry to answer first when the question wasn't directed to me, but let me share with you my stand on the Hadiths:
1- I am not a Quran-only. Visit: www.answering-christianity.com/ac11.htm#links.There are two cases that talk about the bewitchment of the Prophet:
2- I do, however, believe that the Hadiths volumes, ESPECIALLY THE SAHIH ONES, are filled with lies and consipiracies against:
(a)- Prophet Muhammad (ex: the Prophet got bewtiched by a Jew who supposedly stole a piece of his hair, put it in a comb and hid it under a rock).
(b)- The daughters of Abu Bakr, especially our mother Aisha.
(c)- The Caliphs.
(d)- The Companions.
(e)- The Holy Quran - having false narrations about so-called missing verses and chapters that were not included in the Holy Quran, when no texts were provided. Just empty assertions.
(f)- Islam in general.
For ample more details and examples, please visit: www.answering-christianity.com/warning.htm.
3- I do also believe that our Hadiths narrations about how the Holy Quran was compiled are FALSE! Here is why:The reson you gave is very strong. However, I'm sure the experts of Hadith have dealt with this. Their books are here, the problem is, we haven't read them. I haven't read any explanation about those type of hadiths, so I can't say anything.
(a)- The very complex Text of the Holy Quran clearly shows that it was Divinely Designed, especially when the Holy Text is both Consistent and Miraculous in Its Numerical values even to a vowel level. Visit: www.answering-christianity.com/ac20.htm#links.
4- I believe that there was an ORIGINAL copy that was kept in secret during Prophet Muhammad's days, and that Caliph Uthman's committee only took that ORIGINAL copy and duplicated it. This is also why the Caliph burnt all other false copies.Your reasoning about the Miraculous Complexity is strong. However, we can't argue with nonmuslims by simply saying that 'I don't believe' (even if you explain them the Miraculous Complexity) and simply rejecting the narrations. Of course, the Miraculous Complexity will make us believe 100% that the Quran is unchaged, but we cannot just leave those narrations. It requires us to see what those narrations say, to see if they are weak or not (BTW, I have never known if those hadiths you are referring to are classified as true or weak) and to explain them. And all of this is done by scholars. I believe there must be an explanation about those hadiths, there must have been scholars who have written about those hadiths but unfortunately I haven't read them.
5- I don't believe that the Holy Quran was fully compiled only during Caliph Uthman's time. I believe it was fully compiled during Prophet Muhammad's days. Again, the Miraculous Complexity of the Holy Quran's Text testifies that there is clearly a Divine Intervention and Design in It.
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