Author Topic: My 1st study "Origin of christianity,NT quoutations of the OT is the key"  (Read 100138 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Egyptian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
                                         " Origin of Christianity"

                     In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.

NOTE : NT  is the New Testament , OT  is the Old Testament.

for years and I try to solve the puzzle of why the writers of the new testament held those theologies which goes against Islam ....  why they elevated Jesus such elevation ,why they believed in him as atoning with his blood the sinful. etc etc...

I used to believe that such corruption is due to some pagans who imported pagan themes eg; the story of Krishna etc....

but after engaging myself with more profound readings ,I no longer hold that position .... 
I believe that such corruption was derived from some themes of the old testament then been developed by Jewish hands ... 

to properly understand the origin of Christianity we need to understand the mentality of the writers of the new testament ,their intentions .... getting the intentions of the writers would get us the clue of the origin of Christianity ....

we don't have a time machine to go back interviewing the writers, but fortunately we have enough from what they wrote to understand their intentions ..

What is Christianity ? Christianity emerged as a Jewish sect ,whose founders had desires and wishful thinking based on the Jewish messianic hopes ,It is the messianic hope that made them develop ,distort, pervert, and concoct Old testament ,etc.......

the following study I tried to get the matter in great details ,including the Quranic input along with the biblical and historical input .

The best place to understand the intentions of the writers of the new testament ,is when we check and examine what they borrowed from the old testament ,as what they borrowed from the Old testament is the foundation of their theology....

we won't get directly examining their use(quoutations) of the old testament ,before getting the context .......

                    chapter one : the historical context of Christianity.

our context is? Christianity emerged in the Second Temple Period that ran from 520 B.C. - A.D. 70, ending with the destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.

              The Jewish scene in second temple period ?

First : Timeline.

1020-922 undivided monarchy
922 Solomon’s kingdom divided into Northern (Israel) and Southern (Judah)
721 Northern kingdom is defeated by the Assyrians
597-538 Babylonian exile; 587 Temple destroyed
538-332 Persian rule; 520 Temple rebuilt. Second Temple Judaism begins.
332-167 Hellenization under Alexander the Great and his successors from Egypt & Syria
167-63 Hundred years of independence under Maccabees
63 BC Roman conquest of Palestine. Independence lost till 20th c. AD!
1-33 ?  the mission of Jesus .
70 AD Second Temple destroyed.

                      second : A huge crisis and intense diversity

Holy Quran 043:063  When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: "Now have I come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which ye dispute: therefore fear Allah and obey me.

« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 03:18:54 PM by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
That is noted by the scholars:

Quote from: Jewish Movements of the Second Temple. Dr. Eliezer Segal
,a Ph.D in Talmud from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and a Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Calgary.
The era of the "Second Temple (or: Second Commonwealth)" [c. 400 B.C.E.-70 C.E.] was one of the most complex and exciting eras in the development of the Jewish religion,and one that exerted a decisive influence on the shape of Judaism (and its offshoot,Christianity) for subsequent generations. This era was characterized by the division of the Jewish people into rival sects advocating differing approaches to the central religious questions of the day; such as:
• Scripture, its authority and interpretation.
• Models of religious leadership: Priests, scholars and pietists.
• Paths to holiness: Purity, worship, study and morality.
• Ideas about God, the afterlife, the Messiah, etc

Quote from: the rediscovery of Jewish diversity in the Second,The Enoch seminar
Temple period, as well as the variety of scholarly methodologies applied to the field,must be considered among the major achievements of contemporary research. In the last fifty years we have seen the eclipse of the concept of normative Judaism and the emergence of a new world, populated by new characters: Sapiential Judaism, Mosaic Judaism, Enochic Judaism, Qumran Judaism, and the like.

Quote from: J.J. Collins, “How Distinctive Was Enochic Judaism,”in Meghillot: Studies in the Dead Sea Scrolls V-VI. A Festschrift for Devorah Dimant, ed.M. Bar-Asher and E. Tov, Haifa/Jerusalem: University of Haifa/Bialik Institute, 2007,
Second Temple “Judaism… was not uniformly Torah centered, even among those who were familiar with the Torah and respected it as one source of wisdom among others.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 05:17:54 PM by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Quote from: The Internal Diversification of Second Temple Judaism: An Introduction to the Second Temple Period,Jeff S. Anderson .
The period in which the second Jewish temple flourished (515 B.C.E to 70.CE) was one of the most prolific and creative in all of Israel's history .It was unparalleled literary and theological diversity . Rather than positing a rigid contrast between biblical Israel and post-exilic Judaism ,it is now recognized that numerous socio-religious communities during this era envisioned themselves as the sole legitimate expression of post-classical Israel.
Admittedly, the religion of Judaism experienced enormous transformations during this time .One common characteristic of the second temple period is that radically diverse groups made very different determinations as to whether another socio-religious entity was or was not practicing Judaism.

Jesus came ,according to the Quran , to make clear to the Jews some of the points on which they dispute.. was his mission merely to clear some points of disputes or more other goals ,according to the Quran?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 05:19:36 PM by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
shirk among some Jews

Holy Quran 5:72 Christ  said: "Children of Israel, worship God my Lord as well as your Lord." God will ban the Garden for anyone who associates anything else with God; his lodging will be the Fire. Wrongdoers will have no supporters.

why Jesus warned the children of Israel (whose religion is monotheistic) against shirk?

A. some Jews venerated the dead saints:

Jack Lightstone dedicated a chapter of 20 pages in his book (The Commerce of the Sacred: Mediation of the Divine Among Jews in the Greco-Roman World) dealing with that matter, that tombs are the site of veneration of the dead, and in which the earthly remains of these saints constitute valued objects in the mediation of the divine.

B-the veneration/worship of angels:

practice of seeking help from the angels is well attested within both Jewish and Christian literature during the Greco Roman period. Inscriptions on amulets and bracelets confirm the widespread reliance upon angels for exorcisms, healing, and protection among the Jewish population.

C- “Star Worship” :

"the Jewish Encyclopedia states":The Israelites fell into this kind of idolatry and as early as the time of Amos they had the images of Siccuth and Chium, ‘the stars of their god’ (Amos 5:26); the latter name is generally supposed to denote the planet Saturn. That the Kingdom of Israel fell earlier than that of Judah is stated (II Kings 17:16) to have been due, among other causes, to its worshipping the host of heaven. But the Kingdom of Judah in its later period seems to have outdone the Northern Kingdom [Israel] in star-worship.” Of Manasseh it is related that he built altars to all the hosts of heaven in the two courts of the house of YHWY, and it seems it was the practice of even Kings before him to appoint priests who offered sacrifices to the Sun, the Moon, the planets, and all the hosts of heaven. Altars for star-worship were built on the roofs of the houses, and horses and chariots were dedicated to the worship of the Sun. (II Kings 21:5; 23:4-5, 11-12) Star-worship continued in Judah until the 18th year of Josiah’s reign (621 B.C.) when the King took measures to abolish all kinds of idolatry. But although star-worship was then abolished as a public cult, it was practiced privately by individuals who worshipped the heavenly bodies, and poured out libations to them on the roofs of their houses (Zephaniah 1:5; Jeremiah 8:2; 19:13) … Jeremiah, who prophesied in the sixth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin (591 B.C.) describes the worship of the Sun as practiced in the court of the Temple (Ezekiel 8:16) and that even after the destruction of the Temple the women insisted on continuing to worship the Queen of Heaven.

D:  The Jewish figure "Son of man" :

mentioned in the Jewish Book of 1 Enoch (dated before the mission of Jesus)  is described as,judge of the world , universal dominion and preexistence are predicated of him . He sits on God's throne , which is His own throne.!!

N. T. Wright. wrote in his book ,The Challenge of Jesus : p. 105.

"There is a complex range of Jewish texts from different periods that speculate about the exaltation and the heavenly enthronement of a figure who may be either an angel or a human being. These speculations grow from meditation upon and discussion of certain key texts such as Ezekiel 1, in which the prophet receives a vision of YHWH's throne-chariot, and Daniel 7, where "one like a son of man" is presented to "the Ancient of Days" and shares his throne. . . .
How far these speculations were taken is a matter of continuing debate. But the point should be clear: things like this were thinkable; they were not obviously self-contradictory, nor were they regarded as necessarily a threat to what second-Temple Jews meant by "monotheism."

It seems that there were enough reasons for Jesus "peace be upon him" to warn Jews against shirk.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 06:20:02 PM by Egyptian »

Offline Ben

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Provoke me or you'll suffer my wrath!
    • View Profile
nice post. very informative.  ;D
Call to the Way of your Lord with fair guidance and counselling.

Offline Egyptian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
Welcome Brother Ben ,and Jazakallahu khairun .

Our point now, is  the THIRD duty The Quranic Jesus was supposed to do:

our discussion has a guide line ,it is the following verse:

Holy Quran 003.050 And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.

What had been forbidden to the Jews ,that Jesus came to allow some? The answer to that question needs getting the broader context , before examining the law of food with the children of Israel ,according to the Quran, we need to get the context:

How far God blessed the Jews?

1- He rescued them from agony and afflection.

Quran - 7:141
And remember We rescued you from Pharaoh's people, who afflicted you with the worst of penalties, who slew your male children and saved alive your females: in that was a momentous trial from your Lord.

2-He made them inheritors of a blessed land,due to their patience and constancy,made amongst them prophets, and kings.

Quran - 7:137 And We made a people, considered weak (and of no account), inheritors of lands in both east and west, - lands whereon We sent down Our blessings. The fair promise of thy Lord was fulfilled for the Children of Israel, because they had patience and constancy, and We levelled to the ground the great works and fine buildings which Pharaoh and his people erected (with such pride).

Quran - 10:93
And [thereafter], indeed, We assigned unto the children of Israel a most goodly abode, and provided for them sustenance out of the good things of life.

Quran - 5:20
And Moses said to his people: "My people, remember God's favour upon you that he made amongst you prophets, and made you kings, and he gave you what He had not given any from the worlds."

But alas


1- Corrupted the revelation:

5:13 they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them..


2- broke the convenant:

Holy Quran 4:154
raising Mount Sinai high above them in witness of their solemn pledge. And We said unto them, “Enter the gate humbly”; and We told them, "Do not break the Sabbath-law"; and We accepted from them a most solemn pledge.

Holy Quran 2:84
And We have taken a covenant with you: "You shall not spill each other's blood, nor drive each other out from your homes." And you agreed to this while bearing witness.
Yet you it is who slay your people and turn a party from among you out of their homes, backing each other up against them unlawfully and exceeding the limits; and if they should come to you, as captives you would ransom them-- while their very turning out was unlawful for you. Do you then believe in a part of the Book and disbelieve in the other? What then is the re ward of such among you as do this but disgrace in the life of this world, and on the day of resurrection they shall be sent back to the most grievous chastisement, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 05:24:07 PM by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
2- Sins and transgressions:

Quran - 5:62
And you see many of them hasten to sin and transgression and consuming money illicitly (or eating of things forbidden ). Miserable indeed is what they were doing.

Quran - 4:161
And because they practised usury although it had been forbidden them; and for using others' wealth unjustly. For those who are unbelievers among them We have reserved a painful punishment.

Quran - 2:58
And [remember the time] when We said: "Enter this land, and eat of its food as you may desire. abundantly; but enter the gate humbly and say, `Remove Thou from us the burden of our sins', [whereupon] We shall forgive you your sins, and shall amply reward the doers of good."
Then the evildoers substituted a saying other than that which had been said to them; so We sent down upon the evildoers wrath out of heaven for their ungodliness.

Holy Quran 7:163 And ask them about that town which stood by the sea: how its people would profane the Sabbath whenever their fish came to them, breaking the water's surface, on a day on which they ought to have kept Sabbath -because they would not come to them on other than Sabbath-days! Thus did We try them by means of their [own] iniquitous doings.

3 - Rejecting the signs ,killing the prophets:

Quran - 2:61
they went on rejecting the Signs of Allah and slaying His Messengers without just cause. This because they rebelled and went on transgressing.

Quran - 2:87
We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!

4-They ordered the people to do good, but forget To practice it , sold the revelations for a trifling price such as worldly gains, status and renown , overlayed the truth with falsehood, suppressing the truth.

Quran - 2:41 And believe in that which I have sent down confirming that which is with you, and be not the first to disbelieve therein, and barter not My revelations for a small price, and Me alone shall ye fear.
42. And cover not Truth with falsehood, nor conceal the Truth when ye know (what it is).
44. Do ye enjoin right conduct on the people, and forget (To practise it) yourselves, and yet ye study the Scripture? Will ye not understand?

The punishment ?

1- covered with humiliation and misery

Quran - 2:61
They were covered with humiliation and misery; they drew on themselves the wrath of Allah.

2-Cursed by God and some prophets...

And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed them and made hard their hearts.

Quran4:47 O you who have been given the Book! believe that which We have revealed, verifying what you have, before We alter faces then turn them on their backs, or curse them as We cursed the violaters of the Sabbath, and the command of Allah shall be executed.    Quran - 5:78 Cursed are those who have rejected from among the Children of Israel by the tongue of David and Jesus son of Mary. That is for what they have disobeyed, and for what they transgressed.

no wonder both David and Jesus are depicted shamefully (by those whom they cursed) as adulterer and another as son of adultery!
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 05:24:44 PM by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
3- Were given hard laws .

Holy Quran 4:160 And because of the iniquity (or injustice) of the Jews, We have forbidden them the good things which We had made lawful for them, and for their much obstructing the way of Allah.

The Bible?

Ezekiel 20: 21 “‘But the children rebelled against me: They did not follow my decrees, they were not careful to keep my laws, of which I said, “The person who obeys them will live by them,” and they desecrated my Sabbaths. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and spend my anger against them in the wilderness. 22 But I withheld my hand, and for the sake of my name I did what would keep it from being profaned in the eyes of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out. 23 Also with uplifted hand I swore to them in the wilderness that I would disperse them among the nations and scatter them through the countries, 24 because they had not obeyed my laws but had rejected my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths, and their eyes lusted after their parents’ idols. 25 So I gave them other statutes that were not good and laws through which they could not live


After we got the context ,let's now concentrate more on the things that were prohibited for the Jews then....

The law of food with the children of Israel ,according to the Quran, had stages:

1- Pre-torah era:

Holy Quran 3:93 All food was lawful to the children of Israel except that which Israel(Jacob) had forbidden to himself, before the Taurat was revealed.

up till the revelation of the law of the torah , All food was lawful to the children of Israel except that which Israel(Jacob) had forbidden to himself....

but what does that mean?

It seems that the children of Israel imitated their father Jacob,avoiding some food he had forbidden to himself ....

2- Torah revelation till other new strict laws :

Holy Quran 4:160
And because of the iniquity (or injustice) of the Jews, We have forbidden them the good things which We had made lawful for them.

the verse refers to 1- a time when God revealed a law (Torah) making a distinction between the good and the bad and

2- later time when God revealed a strict law a s a part of his punishment on the Jews due to their injustice ,aggression ....

3- afterwards, some strict laws :

the Quran - 6:146 And for the Jews We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.

all beasts ,birds etc that have nails,claws were forbidden .... pigeons,rabbits ,falcons, chickens, sparrows,ducks  etc...

Offline Egyptian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
How far his mission succeeded ?

1- The Jewish reaction to the message of Jesus.

The reactions to the message of Jesus were varied ,due to the varied Jewish expectations of those who are supposed to be sent by God.

The holy Qur'an tells that during his life time A group from the Children of Israel believed, and another group disbelieved ,verse [61:14],it refers to a third group of disbelievers would emerge after his Earthly mission terminated as well ! .


Those who believed?

1- The disciples ,without exception, believed & supported him :

the Quran - 3:52 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

and that verse not only negates the idea of a disciple believing in a divinity of Jesus,but also one of the reasons to question the "the substitution theory"  of a traitor from the disciples (so called Judah or whatever) who sold his prophet for a sum of money....

(details on that points in my next study on the crucifixion, inshallah)...

2- a section among the Jews during the life time of Jesus:

The Quran - 61:14 O ye who believe! Be ye helpers of Allah: As said Jesus the son of Mary to the Disciples, "Who will be my helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples, "We are Allah's helpers!" then a portion of the Children of Israel believed, and a portion disbelieved.

There is no wonder that some Jews accepted Jesus as a prophet of God :

traces of what have been Jesus's original claim as prophet remain in the Gospel texts.

"A prophet is not without honor, except in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house" (Mark 6:4).

A Pharisee thought to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would have known who and what sort of woman this is" (Luk 7:39). Why would the Pharisee wonder if Jesus was a prophet unless this was Jesus's claim or at least a claim made for him by his followers?

On the way through the district of Caesarea Philippi, Jesus "asked his disciples, 'Who do men say that I am?' And they told him, 'John the Baptist; and others say, Elijah; and others "one of the prophets'" (Mark 8:27).

as I said before,the different opinions regarding Jesus, is due to the different expectations by the Jews ....

When Jesus announced his resolve to go to Jerusalem, he is reported by Luke to have said, "Nevertheless I must go on my way …; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish away from Jerusalem" (Luke 13:33).

there are Jews who believed in Jesus as a prophet and nothing more during his lifetime, after his departure eg; those represented others who already quoted in NT ,and the Ebonite's etc.....  they simply saw nothing he said ,did ,or was done to him, to exclude him from that category of prophet nor to elevate him beyond a prophet.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 05:25:25 PM by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile

Those who disbelieved?

they are 2 kinds

1- The first kind of disbelievers are those part believed in him as a false prophet , ascribing to Him illegitimate birth, magic, and a shameful death ......
"... the Jewish Encyclopœdia admits :
Quote from:
The Jewish legends in regard to Jesus are found in three sources, each independent of the others—(1) in New Testament apocrypha and Christian polemical works, (2) in the Talmud and the Midrash, and (3) in the life of Jesus ("Toledot Yeshu'") that originated in the Middle Ages. It is the tendency of all these sources to be-little the person of Jesus by ascribing to him illegitimate birth, magic, and a shameful death. In view of their general character they are called indiscriminately legends. Some of the statements, as that referring to magic, are found among pagan writers and Christian heretics; and as the Ebionites, or Judæo-Christians, who for a long time lived together with the Jews, are also classed as heretics, conclusions may be drawn from this as to the origin of these legends.

1- illegitimate birth:

the Quran - 4:156
And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny.

Jerusalem Abodah Zarah 2:2/7 "someone ... whispered to him in the name of Jesus son of Pandera"

In some of the texts, the father produced a son with a woman named Mary (Miriam in Hebrew). Several of the texts indicate that the mother was not married to Pandera, and was committing adultery and - by implication - Jesus was a basta*d child.(wikipedia)

2- Magic:

the Quran - 5:110
And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

Babylonian Sanhedrin 107b - "The master said: Jesus the Nazarene practiced magic (Editions or MSs: Firenze II.1.8-9, Barco )

3-Shameful death:

Holy Quran [4:157] That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him

Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a-b -"on the eve of Passover they hanged Jesus the Nazarene" (Editions or MSs: Herzog 1, Karlsruhe 2)

Reasons for their rejection and attacks?

the Quran - 2:87 And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?

The things that the Jews desired Jesus to be? is the golden key to understand not only why most of the Jews rejected him, but also the cornerstone to understand everything about the origin of Christianity...

« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 12:39:01 PM by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile

Jesus came with noble purposes " affirming monotheism,warning against shirk, abolishing the hard laws ,coming to a common word in some religious conflicts).

Is that something that should get those Jews that angry with Jesus, accusing him and his mother ?!

The fact is that ,those Jews weren't interested in receiving such usual prophets ,who would criticize them and their community ...

Those Jews ambitioned more than what is mere a social preacher. they had the desires of the character that when God will send ,they would be freed from the political depression and humility,getting back the glory of their past during the kingdom of David, and turning the whole world into paradise...

Those are the real desires that made them reject Jesus ,Allah calls those desires as vain..

Holy Quran 28:50 If they do not respond to you, you will know that they follow only their own desires. Who is further astray than the one who follows his own desires with no guidance from God?
Holy Quran 47:14 Can those who follow clear proof from their Lord be compared to those whose foul deeds are made to seem alluring to them, those who follow their own desires?

The Jewish (and christian as well) desires are based all on a figure was foretold  in the old testament ,it is (the awaited king messiah) ... 

investigating the issue of that figure is the golden clue to understand almost everything regarding the New Testament and Christianity ,getting clue of where the problem of Christianity all began.

1- The analysis of that problem will enable the readers to understand the reasons why the Jews from the time of the New Testament till now,reject Jesus (as depicted in the New Testament) .

2- That is the most solid arena of examining the trustworthy of the writings of the new testament ,we will find out later in the study how the vain desires of the messiah made the writers of the new testament intentionally distort,pervert lots of passages from the old testament for the purpose of of indoctrination ,which clearly refute the concept that the New testament theologies are truly inspired by God.

3- Through exposing such problem,  Muslims are invited the safest ,most solid way to test the claim of Jesus divinity ...., I will invite the readers to test the trinity in the laboratory of the Messiah !?

In other words ,If Jesus is believed by the writers of the new testament as the long awaited Davidic messiah king (will be proved to be false) ,and "assuming" it is believed by them to be God as well..... Isn't proving the first to be false strongly requires the second to be false too? If Jesus is not the so called Davidic messiah,that logically leads to him not being the so called incarnated God ,as well.....isn't it?
test the so called divine Jesus ,if he failed as the davidic messiah he would fail as God as well....
Have you realized the tremendous importance of the issue? that is why I made it my first study here ...

« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 05:26:19 PM by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
What is the concept of the messiah ? in one word it is a wish , desire,such desire didn't begin with the New testament but much older ......

we need to get an outline of the ancient Jewish history before we go to define the term "davidic king messiah":

The period of the Judges begins after the the 40 years in the wilderness described in Exodus. Moses dies before reaching Canaan. Once the Hebrews reach the promised land, they find they are in frequent conflict with the neighboring regions. They need leaders to guide them in battle. The leaders are the judges who also handle more traditional judicial matters as well. Joshua comes first.There is archaeological evidence of Israel at this time. It comes from the Merneptah Stele, which is currently dated to 1209 B.C.......
The period of the united monarchy begins when the judge Samuel reluctantly anoints Saul as king of the tribes of Israel. During Saul's kingship, the Philistines attack and a young shepherd named David volunteers for a one-on-one with the fiercest of the Philistines, a giant named Goliath. With a single stone from his slingshot, David fells the Philistine and wins a reputation that outshines Saul's. When Saul dies, David replaces him as king and when David dies, his son by Bathsheba becomes the wise King Solomon. This information is basically from the Bible, with only occasional support from archaeology.
After Solomon, the United Monarchy falls apart.Jerusalem is the capital of Judah, the southern Kingdom, which is led by Rehoboam. Its inhabitants are the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Simeon (and some Levi). Simeon and Judah later merge.
Jeroboam leads a revolt of the northern tribes to form the Kingdom of Israel. The 9 tribes that make up Israel are Zebulun, Issachar, Asher, Naphtali, Dan, Menasseh, Ephraim, Reuben and Gad (and some Levi). The capital of Israel is Samaria. (Israel falls to the Assyrians in 721; Judah falls to the Babylonians in 597.)In 722 - Assyrians, under Shalmaneser, and then under Sargon, conquer Israel and destroy Samaria. Jews are exiled.In 612 - Nabopolassar of Babylonia destroys Assyria.In 587 - Nebuchadnezzar II seizes Jerusalem. The Temple is destroyed.In 586 - Babylonia conquers Judah. Exile to Babylon.Diaspora: 722 (Israel) and 586 (Judah). In 539 - the Babylonian Empire falls to Persia which is ruled by Cyrus. In 537 - Cyrus allows Jews from Babylon back into Jerusalem.
From 550-333 - The Persian Empire rules Israel.From 520-515 - Second Temple is built.After Alexander dies, Ptolemy I Soter takes Egypt and becomes king of Palestine in 305.250. - The beginning of the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes.
198. - Seleucid King Antiochus III (Antiochus the Great) ousts Ptolemy V from Judah and Samaria.63 B.C. - Pompey makes the region of Judah/Israel a client kingdom of Rome.6 A.D. - Augustus makes it a Roman province (Judaea).
66 - 73. - Revolt.70. - Romans occupy Jerusalem. Titus destroys the Second Temple.

During that history that is rich with political glory and disasters , appeared in the Jewish sacred books predictions of various figures...
what were the Jewish expectations before the mission of Jesus ?
In order to check the varied expectations of the Jews before the mission of Jesus we need to visit the sources of Jewish thought before 70 C . E ,and the new testament .

The Jews were expecting a prophet who could be :

1- A special prophet ;one like Moses :

Deu 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

The Jews used to include such expectation alongside the hope of the messiah king up till the time of Jesus

John 1:21 They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” He answered, “No.”

« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 05:20:41 PM by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
some Jews after seeing the signs Jesus performed thought of him (wrongly) as such special prophet ...

John 6:14 After the people saw the sign Jesus performed, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.”

John 7:40  On hearing his words, some of the people said, “Surely this man is the Prophet.”

Acts 3:20 and He may send Jesus Christ who before hath been preached to you, whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of a restitution of all things, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age. 22`For Moses, indeed, unto the fathers said -- A prophet to you shall the Lord your God raise up out of your brethren, like to me; him shall ye hear in all things, as many as he may speak unto you; 23and it shall be, every soul that may not hear that prophet shall be utterly destroyed out of the people.

2- Old prophet came back to the scene:

Luke 9:8 Now Herod the tetrarch heard about all that was going on. And he was perplexed because some were saying that John had been raised from the dead, 8 others that Elijah had appeared, and still others that one of the prophets of long ago had come back to life.

Mark 8:28 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah."

Matthew 16:14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

3- A prophet:

the way some Jews reacted with Jesus according to the new testament ,shows that they were open to accept the idea of a new prophet ,and it seems that they wouldn't make it conditional that the prophet must has been mentioned in a prediction in the old testament...

Matthew 16:14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

John 9:17 Then they turned again to the blind man, “What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened.” The man replied, “He is a prophet.”

John 4:19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet.

Luke 7:16 Then he went up and touched the bier they were carrying him on, and the bearers stood still. He said, “Young man, I say to you, get up!” 15 The dead man sat up and began to talk, and Jesus gave him back to his mother. 16 They were all filled with awe and praised God. “A great prophet has appeared among us,” they said. “God has come to help his people.” 17 This news about Jesus spread throughout Judea and the surrounding country.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 05:26:41 PM by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile

what were the other Jewish expectations?

It is the keyword for the problem of christianity: It is?

4- The Messiah:

The Jewish texts have to be discussed(skipping the christian text for the moment) order to understand the term as originally was thought to be ,also visiting the term in its original Jewish context would enable us to understand the basic problem between Jews and Christians aka ( "From Jewish Messianology to Christian Christology) ......

The term messiah has both technical and non- technical use....

The non-technical use of the term is simply to designate "one anointed” [with oil and/or the Holy Spirit], but especially one who had been set apart by God and enabled for a special task.

The technical use of the term , a future King of Israel, physically descended from the Davidic line, who will rule the united tribes of Israel and herald the Messianic Age of global peace.

before reading the scriptural requirements concerning the Messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign ...

No doubt ,during the Davidic kingdom the Jews were in their Glorious Days ....

Holy Quran [34:10] We endowed David with blessings from us: "O mountains, submit with him, and you too, O birds." We softened the iron for him. "You may make shields that fit perfectly, and work righteousness. Whatever you do, I am Seer thereof.

Holy Quran 27:16 And Solomon was David's heir. He said: "O ye people! We have been taught the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed  of all things: this is indeed Grace manifest "

The bible describe that period of the united monarchy under David and Solomon. Then Israel had been saved by David's exploits from any immediate danger of wars and vassaldom to other nations, and had achieved in the days of his son an unmatched State of peace and well-being: The people of Judah and Israel were countless as the sands of the sea(shores);they ate and they drank and enjoyed life. Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms

from the river Euphrates to Phüistia as far as the frontier of Egypt; they paid tribute and were subject to him all his life . . . For he was paramount over all the land vvest of the Euphrates from Tiphsah to Gaza, ruling all the kings west of the river; and he enjoyed peace on all sides. All through his reign Judah and Israel lived securely, every man under his vine and his fig-tree, from Dan to Beersheba .

but the fact

Holy Quran 3:26Say: O Allah, Master of the Kingdom! Thou givest the kingdom to whomsoever Thou pleasest and takest away the kingdom from whomsoever Thou pleasest.

The monarchy falls apart and Israel falls to the Assyrians in 721; Judah falls to the Babylonians in 597.
logically there has been (and still) a Jewish longing for the golden days of the Davidic empire ........
Israelite royal theology, at least as transmitted in Judah, regarded the Davidic dynasty
as eternally guaranteed by God, in times of severe crisis the tradition of Yahweh's
eternal covenant with David could serve as basis for the hope that God would soon restore the monarchy to its former glory by raising up a new scion of the Davidic line.

the political disasters of the late eighth century, including the destruction of the northern kingdom and the deportation of a significant portion of the population of the Southern kingdom, produced widespread longing for the unity,strength, and justice of the idealized united monarchy of the past. Isaiah reflects that longing in a number of oracles dating from the period of the Syro-Ephraimite war,' it is clearly expressed in Isa 1:21-26.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 05:27:00 PM by Egyptian »

Offline Egyptian

  • Hero Member
  • *****
    • View Profile
such wish seduced the writers of the Bible to produce encouraging ,hopeful texts for the masses ....a future Earthly king who will turn the Earth into Paradise ....
One hoped for and foresaw a restoration of the splendor of old, realized in the in gathering of the dispersed in the Land of Israel so as to reconstitute the monocentricity of the monarchic age, and the restoration of national sovereignty under a Davidic Anointed. The spiritual dimension of Jewish messianism continued to manifest itself in historical realism and societal factuality.
The memory of those days inspired later biblical writers, and upon it they modeled their vision of the future. They described such so called messiah with all the wishful thinking a human being may imagine ..

He will be
a descended from King David via Solomon (Isaiah 11:1)  (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18).and during his era all the Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12) ,  Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5),All the peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23),the whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17), death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8), There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8), All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19), The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11),The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55) , Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9), He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3)...

He won't be:

1- The Messiah is not portrayed in Early Judaism as a miracle worker .
2- No evidence that Jews during the time of Jesus considered that God's Messiah would come and suffer.
3- The reference to the death of the Messiah in 4 Ezra 7:29 is not a Christian interpolation into this Jewish apocalypse.But the death of the Messiah here is not efficacious and is clearly distinct from the Christian affirmation about Jesus. According to 4 Ezra 7, the Messiah's death serves to mark the end of a set period of time and history.
4- The rabbinic references to two Messiahs, one of whom will die, postdate the second Century C . E . , and, therefore, are too late to be used to portray the messianology of the early Jews.
5-  Nowhere in the Old Testament has the term (messiah) O'tra acquired its later technical sense as an eschatological title.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 05:27:33 PM by Egyptian »


What's new | A-Z | Discuss & Blog | Youtube